XPost - retained reflexes and EF

[matrips]

Background:  On the chat board is a discussion about kids with Executive function issues and getting help from parents with managing school/college etc.  My one ds is almost 15.  Had OT for reflexes at age 12.  Life improved dramatically!!   He’s in b&m high school now and makes things harder than they need to be.  

Question:   Has anyone done OT for retained reflexes and seen an improvement in EF?  That wasn’t our focus with OT back then even though he’s always had issues with it.  Our goals were way more basic.  Guess I want to see if there is a case for seriously getting back to the OT home exercises.  Because they don’t come without complaints! 🙄 

Thanks

[Lecka]

I went to an OT seminar once and iirc they were saying there are a lot of activities kids could do, that were rhythmic and balanced (using both sides of the body), that could help with ADHD, they said probably always plan on doing some exercise like this.  This was a little separate from retained reflexes.  They were saying — you might always need to plan in 15 minutes, or 5 minute breaks, separate from anything with retained reflexes.  
 

There are a lot of options and seeing what works for different kids.  They mentioned a lot of ideas.  From riding a bike, to a balance board or a wobble board, dribbling a basketball with alternating hands, breathing exercises, etc.  

Bal-a-vis-x (this involves bouncing rubber balls, you can see YouTube videos) and balance boards are really popular for ADHD, is my impression.  
 

I don’t know if EF issues would definitely go along with ADHD but the workshop I went to was basically 1/3 general, 1/3 focus on ADHD, 1/3 focus on autism.  

There is a separate issue if his retained reflexes did not stay integrated.  This happens with some kids but I have an impression it is seen more in kids who have autism.  I don’t know about that.  I have heard with autism that it is very hard for some kids to ever really have their retained reflexes be integrated, but I have heard that more with kids with major sensory issues or major, major language/visual processing issues.  But that is such an impression, I really don’t know.  
 

And then there is another separate issue where sometimes kids do retained reflexes again but it’s easier the second time around and doesn’t take as long, that kids might do after a big growth spurt.

I have heard though that if exercises are needed they can be needed permanently, kids need to connect with realizing they should take a “brain break” (or whatever) and do them independently..... and that can overlap in ways with retained reflex exercises.

But there are a lot more options and probably there will be something that a kid will really like.  It doesn’t have to be a certain exercise that might be boring or just not something they like as much.  
 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

So retained reflexes are a funny thing. On someone like my ds, we did the exercises, got them integrated, and on a few kept doing the things a while longer for good measure. Boom, done. 

Then there's my dd. She is hyper-responsive for sensory, and she struggles to even do the exercises. Her body is just a constant 4 alarm fire siren, kwim? And the reflex work, which fluffs things up, makes it worse. So she NEEDS to do them, but to tell herself to do them is hard. To tolerate it is hard. 

So for her, I think that undermined effort (I can't, it hurts, how do I get my body calmed down afterward, can I build up slowly and tolerate it) is an issue. And THEN when she even does get one integrated, honestly they just appear later when she's stressed. And we've had threads on this where others have said it and I don't know what the explanation is.

So life sucks, I wish it could make things better. No, the EF is going to be a mess whether you work on reflexes or not. The reflexes are more affecting how the body feels, when reflexes are getting set off (wetting, touch, etc.), and the things that should develop/cascade from them like language and vision. But I haven't really seen anyone saying they worked on reflexes and *EF* specifically got better. Living in your body would get better and the skills in the domino chain (vision, language), should have a chance to get better. But nope, not offering hope on the EF.

But I agree, getting your body more calm makes everything else go a bit better.

And no, I'm not sure there's a tight correlation on the losing integration of reflexes and a diagnosis. I'm not sure what the reason is. My ds is ASD2, so you'd think if it were correlated to a label that he'd be the one becoming disintegrated, haha. 

[Heathermomster]

OP, does your child have any diagnosis?

My situation differs from Lecka and PeterPan because my DS is 2e with maths/handwriting/reading SLDs and no ASD/social thinking issues.  His EF at around aged 14-16 was crazy off the chain.  He still struggles with EF but has shown improvement with age.  I don’t recall whether I mentioned this on the EF thread, but my son worked with a pediatric PT when he was in the 10th grade 2 x weekly for four weeks.  Once the prim reflexes are integrated, the postural ones take over.  He still had the ATNR and STNR refexes so completed bilateral coordination work, weight training, and balance exercises followed by postural exercises.  After the exercises, son was finally able to learn how to swim and began working out with the local 8-man, homeschool football team.  Exercise strengthens the connections between the left and right sides of the brain.  About 60 minutes following exercise is a good time to study because focus during that time is elevated.  
 

EF is affected by more than developmental  motor issues.  Brain maturity, working memory, and processing speed directly affect EF and with deliberate work, EF can be improved but your child has to be motivated to buy into the program.  Once my DS completed the ped PT work, I immediately set out to find a competent CBT who could help us manage son’s EF.  After about 3 months of searching and working with CBTs, we settled on a CBT that helped us organize.  My son started practicing 5 minutes of mindfulness breathing 5 times per week.  There were other things as well.  Email me offline if you have questions.

it seems fairly common for kiddos diagnosed with ASD to require repeat visits to the OT/PT for reflex work.  It can also be difficult to find a competent OT, and that is why I recommended seeking for a ped PT and CBT.  The combo was life changing for my son.
 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Heathermomster

[Heathermomster]

About the EF thread...pay special attention to what Lewelma stated in her first post.  I didn’t think about it much at that time, but I over taught my son when he took external classes.  DS performed well in the classroom because he is smart and I tutored him.  We also experimented with schedules, timers, and study skills so that he could slowly support himself well into his senior year of high school. His fresher year at uni was a test and he did well.  I still act as his periodic EF coach and remind him of ways to study.  Cornell Notes have been awesome.  Mothering a student with EF issues takes a ton of persistence and patience and is very difficult.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Heathermomster

[kbutton]

No direct EF benefit from reflex work, but indirectly, yes. It's one less thing for the EF to be sidetracked by if that makes sense.

Connective tissue disorders can also derail the permanence of reflex work.

I guess we had one exception to the reflexes for EF--if brushing fixes the startle reflex (Moro?, which doesn't manifest the same way in all kids), then we did find that a brushing protocol helped EF because my son was less hypervigilant, and he didn't go fight or flight all the time. He still needed ADHD meds later on though--it wasn't a fix, just a help.

Working on reflexes has never yielded anything negative here, only positive, even when things didn't completely integrate.

[Heathermomster]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

No direct EF benefit from reflex work, but indirectly, yes. It's one less thing for the EF to be sidetracked by if that makes sense.

Connective tissue disorders can also derail the permanence of reflex work.

I guess we had one exception to the reflexes for EF--if brushing fixes the startle reflex (Moro?, which doesn't manifest the same way in all kids), then we did find that a brushing protocol helped EF because my son was less hypervigilant, and he didn't go fight or flight all the time. He still needed ADHD meds later on though--it wasn't a fix, just a help.

Working on reflexes has never yielded anything negative here, only positive, even when things didn't completely integrate.

Kbutton pointed out meds.  Meds for attention deficits may be necessary alongside CBT work unless the student is on the spectrum, which requires a different therapeutic approach.
 

The bottom line is that it is important that you understand your child’s diagnosis.  The STNR and ATNR reflexes made sitting and focusing difficult for my DS which aggravated the EF situation.

[matrips]

Thank you all for your insights and experiences.  I need to figure out how to get him back on track with some of the exercises and see if our OT can fit us in for a checkup to see where he is currently at.  He may tolerate doing the exercises better if coming from her.  I’m going to reread your lists again this weekend.  Please feel welcome to add anything more you think of.  I truly appreciate it.

He doesn’t have a diagnosis; he's never been tested. I’m not sure what he would test as; I’ve often wondered.  His IQ is way high; he’s got the smarts.  Just not always the ability to forge an easier road.

[Lecka]

If he is very smart, that means he can compensate at a very high level.  But it is still compensating and sometimes that becomes harder as expectations get harder.

Why don’t you consider testing?  Or, maybe over the next year see how things are going and consider testing.  
 

OT is great but it is more of an “on the side” kind of thing to do for executive functioning.  

[matrips]

14 hours ago, Lecka said:

If he is very smart, that means he can compensate at a very high level.  But it is still compensating and sometimes that becomes harder as expectations get harder.

Why don’t you consider testing?  Or, maybe over the next year see how things are going and consider testing.  
 

OT is great but it is more of an “on the side” kind of thing to do for executive functioning.  

What kind of testing would I ask for?  And who would I ask?

[Lecka]

Well — what are you seeing as far as him not making things easy.  
 

You have mentioned executive functioning.  Have you read anything about ADHD?  
 

If it seems like things like you read about — they will have suggestions ranging from “try these things” up to looking into ADHD testing.

If it doesn’t sound like him — okay, how is he making things hard?

You could talk to the pediatrician about a referral for testing or google.  
 

If he is having trouble that would be noticed at school, you could talk to the school counselor and consider requesting testing through the school — you would do this by writing a letter requesting it.