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lauraw4321

Letting your kid fail

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Late to the party to add to the military thing.  My DH is highly intelligent  and ADD he enlisted in the navy. He had no trouble in boot camp because their is a lot of structure and support.  You don’t really have to decide and plan you just do what you’ve taught when you’re told to do it.  He got through his 6 years.  He learned to do things in a routine way.  The military did not fix him and he still has EF issues he lost cable because he forgot to pay, he’s had a license expire etc.  

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40 minutes ago, aggie96 said:

This thread has been an interesting read. I am so thankful and said so many times before this thread that I come from a "How can I help" family. I don't have a kid in college yet, but I did note when I was in college that there were many students that needed additional help with "life" or "adulting" or EF function that had nothing to do with their "academics". I have many examples but the most extreme was a best friend that got sick and thought it was the flu. Parents told him go to Quack Shack (campus doctor). He did. You have the flu. Friend still very sick. His friends are taking care of him at this point. Dad won't pay for outside doctor. Dad won't offer any help other than go to Quack Shack. Sicker and sicker. Finally, I call MY mom and tell her what's up. She immediately tells us what to do. Seek outside doctor. She helps call clinics off campus to find who will see him self-pay etc etc. She finds one. We take him. He is hospitalized immediately for Diabetes Type 1. Almost dies (not hyperbole). Stabilizes and hospital tells us to send him home. Asks where's parents. Parents won't come. Dad says figure it out. I drive him 7 hours home (our home town). Thank god MY parents were not of the sink or swim variety. His were. They always had been.

I am a super duper, bad ass, high EF functioning, Mary Poppins with a healthy dose of fairy god mother and psychic thrown in, corporate project managing (paid $$$$$$), business owner x 3 woman. Yesterday, I just casually mentioned in conversation about something else that DH and I were booked 4x's (4 places at once) over today with kids and renovation trades. She asked if I needed help. I said, "Nah. I'll work it out. I always do."  She texted me at 8:15am this morning and asked how she could help.

Just like that. She will ALWAYS throw me a life preserver even when I'm doing fancy flips in the deep end. I'm 45.

 

Just my $.02.

IT really is important for adultish kids to know that they can bounce medical advice off of parents.

They just dont have the life experience, in general, to know what's what. Like figuring out what's serious and what is no big deal. When to press medical personnel and when to go with what they say.

My dd was dealing with UTI symptoms. Except  it didn't hurt when she peed. She (without me) went to nurse practitioner at our doctors office. NP saw symptoms, but said, well, since it's not burning, it's probably not a UTI. But didn't even take a urine sample.DD came home. I said. "Hey, when that happens it's ok to say, Well, while I'm here can I at least leave a sample for you, just in case."

(My dd never burns with a UTI) 

And a week later, my dd was back at the dr with a UTI. (still no burning, but the other symptoms were much worse.) 

But you really have to teach someone to self-advocate. As someone who's been to the dr a lot, I've got a pretty good sense of when something doesn't sound right. I didn't have this at 17, 18, or 19. Now my 22 yo dd goes to all of her appointments alone, but it took time for her to get there.

 

 

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14 hours ago, lewelma said:

Just yesterday he asked what he should write about for his humanities scholarship application.  I was thinking in my mind "how would I know?" but I asked "what are the prompts?" When he said, one is " if you could recommend one novel for all MIT students to read before coming, what would it be and why?" I told him that I had the list of all the novels he had ever read.  Oh boy was that helpful. So I read them out, he chose one, found a thesis on his own, and wrote the most beautiful paper (He read it to me). All he needed was the list of books. I was happy to help. Easy for me, super important to him.


I think those of us who homeschooled with a lot of involvement and connection and discussion see the continuation of that in college as a perfectly natural and normal thing. Why would we suddenly cut that off? But from the other end I can see how, to a parent whose kid went to B&M school or took online courses where someone else did the teaching and grading and course management, the idea of a parent being involved in those things for a college kid would seem bizarre — surely there's someone in an office somewhere whose job that is. But if you, the parent, are the one who taught them to write, and you were the one reading the books and watching the lectures and having the discussions with them for all the years of homeschooling, then it makes perfect sense that you'd also be the one they call when they want advice about an essay or they want to hash out something they've been thinking about and need someone to bounce ideas off of. 

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Homeschool mum 16 yrs

I actively do NOT want to be the person who my college aged kid with dyscalculia calls. I don't want her to hash out her essays with me. I don't want to have her relying on me to help her through her stats assignments. I don't want it, because I'm burned out, and because it isn't some sort of natural progression for us. Of course I provided some hand-holding in the first semester, and she knows that if she's really tight on time, I'll run an eye over an assignment, but I am happy that this is minimal. I expect it to be even more minimal in third year than it was in second year. By the time she's in honours year, I expect it to be nothing or as close to as to make no difference. 

My kids were intensively, seriously, and fully parented and educated by me for a huge chunk of my adult life. It's OK to reach a point of being done. 

*obligatory disclaimer - it's also OK to not be done, and to help in ways that benefit you and your kids for as long as that both works for you. But it's not some homeschooler vs brick and mortar schooler thing! Even dedicated and loving homeschooling parents with kids with learning challenges can reach a point of being finished. 

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Obviously parents can only do as much as they can do. I think all kids deserve to have the level of support they need, whatever that is, and all parents should provide the level of support they're capable of, whatever that is. And if there is a gap between those two things, then the parent should help the child find outside resources to bridge that gap, not just withdraw support and throw them in the deep end to sink or swim.

There's a significant difference between a parent saying "I will only provide X amount of support, because that's all that I am capable of," and saying "parents should not provide more than X amount of support, because Y-aged kids should not need more than that." The first recognizes that the limit is set by the parent's capabilities not the student's needs, while the second implies that the limit is set by some arbitrary standard of what needs are still "acceptable" at a given age.

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3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

<snip>

I don't think it matters one bit which school someone attends, or whether they live an hour away or on the other side of the globe. What matters is what level of support this student needs (and wants) in this particular environment at this time in his or her life, in order to keep growing and moving forward. And that really applies to NT kids as well as those with more challenges. As long as you're seeing growth and forward movement, you're doing it right. 

Right.  No one here is doing this (that I've seen), but it can be easy to say "oh, yeah, this kid at this tough school taking these tough courses may need help, but your kid taking "regular" courses at a state school shouldn't need help."

(Did everyone see that I said no one here is doing that? But it is easy to do.)

 

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5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Even dedicated and loving homeschooling parents with kids with learning challenges can reach a point of being finished. 

Yes. I agree. I'm looking forward to being done in 2 years!! The 5 minutes I spend on my older boy each day is easy compared to the struggles I deal with every day with my younger.  I've talked many times about having to put my big girl panties on each morning and get the job done with my younger. Homeschooling is exhausting and sometimes frustrating and demoralizing, and I'm not trying to shame anyone into working harder! Sometimes college kids just need more help than expected. Obviously, it depends on the kid! By not outsourcing in highschool, my older ds was able to focus on his passions, develop independent learning skills, and have lots of down time to read and think deeply.  HOWEVER, he did not have the opportunity to learn and master EF skills because he never took multiple outsources courses at once. The side effect of these choices is that he is a top student at university in three areas (math/physics, humanities, and the arts) BUT he has needed extra help to shore up this deficit in EF. All choices we make have pros and cons. I just think we need to walk in with our eyes open. 

But in just 2 years, I can focus on other people's kids!! How exciting! I am a tutor and have 11 additional students that see me 2 hours each week. I tutor in Math, Science and English, but more importantly for many of my kids, I tutor in EF skills and mentor them into career choices. 

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1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Yes. I agree. I'm looking forward to being done in 2 years!! The 5 minutes I spend on my older boy each day is easy compared to the struggles I deal with every day with my younger.  I've talked many times about having to put my big girl panties on each morning and get the job done with my younger. Homeschooling is exhausting and sometimes frustrating and demoralizing, and I'm not trying to shame anyone into working harder! Sometimes college kids just need more help than expected. Obviously, it depends on the kid! By not outsourcing in highschool, my older ds was able to focus on his passions, develop independent learning skills, and have lots of down time to read and think deeply.  HOWEVER, he did not have the opportunity to learn and master EF skills because he never took multiple outsources courses at once. The side effect of these choices is that he is a top student at university in three areas (math/physics, humanities, and the arts) BUT he has needed extra help to shore up this deficit in EF. All choices we make have pros and cons. I just think we need to walk in with our eyes open. 

But in just 2 years, I can focus on other people's kids!! How exciting! I am a tutor and have 11 additional students that see me 2 hours each week. I tutor in Math, Science and English, but more importantly for many of my kids, I tutor in EF skills and mentor them into career choices. 

 

I have considerably more tolerance at this point in time for the educating/child caring I get paid to do, than that which I don't.

And ya know, I don't even care if that makes me a bad mum. I'm too tired to care, lol. 

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1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Yes. I agree. I'm looking forward to being done in 2 years!! The 5 minutes I spend on my older boy each day is easy compared to the struggles I deal with every day with my younger.  I've talked many times about having to put my big girl panties on each morning and get the job done with my younger. Homeschooling is exhausting and sometimes frustrating and demoralizing, and I'm not trying to shame anyone into working harder! Sometimes college kids just need more help than expected. Obviously, it depends on the kid! By not outsourcing in highschool, my older ds was able to focus on his passions, develop independent learning skills, and have lots of down time to read and think deeply.  HOWEVER, he did not have the opportunity to learn and master EF skills because he never took multiple outsources courses at once. The side effect of these choices is that he is a top student at university in three areas (math/physics, humanities, and the arts) BUT he has needed extra help to shore up this deficit in EF. All choices we make have pros and cons. I just think we need to walk in with our eyes open. 

But in just 2 years, I can focus on other people's kids!! How exciting! I am a tutor and have 11 additional students that see me 2 hours each week. I tutor in Math, Science and English, but more importantly for many of my kids, I tutor in EF skills and mentor them into career choices. 

 

When reading about your eldest, I’m not sure he has deficits in EF relative to the “average” EF development for a young man of his age.  He seems more to have a deficit relative to his academic level.

 His willingness to ask for help in planning, and then to follow the suggestions given, and then to be able to do it on his own after only a year or so university experience seem to me like he may actually be very strong in EF.    Understanding what one needs help with and seeking out that help, even if from a parent, in itself seems to me to be a fairly high level of EF functionality. 

 

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With adult children (or children at college), I would reframe 'every child deserves' - it's a recipe for guilt in some of us. It's unreachable for many, even if it's true. 

I think I'd go with something like 'As I am able, I would like to be able to support my child into stable adulthood'. or 'My child deserves a happy mom, and if that can encompass as much coaching as they need, great, but if not, things will likely be OK, because I am not the only person in this world who will give my child a helping hand.'

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

I have considerably more tolerance at this point in time for the educating/child caring I get paid to do, than that which I don't.

And ya know, I don't even care if that makes me a bad mum. I'm too tired to care, lol. 

Yup. On many days I enjoy my tutor kids more than my own kids. My tutor kids are so positive, do what I ask, and are really grateful. I need this external gratification for a job well done which is actually why I started tutoring. I would love to say my own kids are all these things, but you know what it is like - they don't know anything else, so they don't know how sweet they have it.  🙂 (although my older ds is starting to see it now he is hearing about other kids' educational experiences)

If in some way I have made others feel bad or unworthy or some such, I am deeply sorry.  I am a high energy person with a very balanced emotional state with a very supportive husband with a very good job.  Plus, all my family has good health. Over many years being on this board, I have learned to be very grateful for what I have as I see so many other people suffer with much much less. We all do what we can with the energy we have.

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4 minutes ago, Pen said:

When reading about your eldest, I’m not sure he has deficits in EF relative to the “average” EF development for a young man of his age.  He seems more to have a deficit relative to his academic level.

Yes, exactly.  You may not have seen my post above, but this is exactly what I said.  He is asynchronous, he is not 2E (that is my younger). At 18 he had average EF skills, but very advanced academic skills. So his EF skills were not at the level required to meet his academic needs.  But in 3 terms, he has learned a ton, and is not needing nearly so much support. 

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59 minutes ago, Pen said:

When reading about your eldest, I’m not sure he has deficits in EF relative to the “average” EF development for a young man of his age.  He seems more to have a deficit relative to his academic level.

 His willingness to ask for help in planning, and then to follow the suggestions given, and then to be able to do it on his own after only a year or so university experience seem to me like he may actually be very strong in EF.  Understanding what one needs help with and seeking out that help, even if from a parent, in itself seems to me to be a fairly high level of EF functionality. 

That's true of Ruth's son (that his issue is asynchrony not 2e), but it's also possible for someone who does have ADHD and significant EF deficits to still understand what their limitations are, know when/how/who to ask for help, and then follow directions and make good use of the support they're given. I don't think that's a component of EF as much as it's a function of personality, self-awareness, and probably a certain amount of meta-cognitive explanation and instruction.

Having known a lot of adults with ADHD and serious EF deficits (including being married to one for 22 years), my #1 priority with DS from the time he was very young was teaching him that (1) he should never be ashamed of the way his brain works (there are both advantages and disadvantages to his type of wiring) and (2) he should never be afraid to ask for help. I thought that learning how (and when and who) to ask for help, how to articulate exactly what you need, and how to build on the help you're given, was the most fundamental skill set I could give him — far more important than learning how to use a planner or put reminders in a phone or whatever. The "memory aid" stuff is helpful but superficial and relatively easy to pick up. Understanding that your brain is just different, not "wrong," and it's ok to ask for help with the things you're not good at, because there are lots of other things you are amazing at (and you can help other people with those), is a much harder lesson, because it needs to be really accepted and internalized to the extent that it changes how you see yourself and others. 

 

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On 11/13/2019 at 6:54 PM, Corraleno said:

Like many other highly intelligent people who happen to have EF deficits, DS has zero problem with learning, analyzing, and higher order thinking. He doesn't need "middle school level" guidance to produce a research paper — he's been writing college-level papers for years. He is more than well prepared for the level of academic work in college. But he has a brain-based disability that makes executive function tasks like estimating, organizing, prioritizing, scheduling, and remembering a large number of assignments in a short period of time, within a very complicated scheduled that includes intermittent out of state travel, difficult. It's patronizing to state that work "still has to happen within a certain time frame because semesters are limited" as if that's somehow news to someone with EF issues. Of course they know that — fitting it all into that time frame is exactly what they need help with. 

 

I'm not sure what your point is here. DS is clearly producing "college-level work regardless of his disability" — that is not the problem. He has also done everything he could to advocate for himself in order to "get the necessary accommodations because his parent [me] lives 2400 miles away." The problem is that his university doesn't offer the accommodations he needs. And I suspect that the primary reason for that is that many people at the university — like many people in this thread — don't understand that real brain-based EF issues do not get "fixed" in high school and don't magically disappear at age 18. I'm glad that we, as a society, no longer treat dyslexics like they're stupid, or people with ADHD like they're just lazy or sloppy or not trying hard enough to pay attention. Hopefully someday the stigma attached to EF deficits will also go away. 

 

 

I find that without higher doses of steroids now, my EF issues are absolutely awful.  I am in my mid 50's.  I did have some issues in earlier years due to ADHD/EF stuff but learned how to basically manage it.  That has come undone as my Autoimmune issues have affected my brain.  My higher level thinking has not been an issue. 

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7 hours ago, seekinghim45 said:

Ok. I guess I don't get this.  These are just like exercises that I used to do with my personal trainer for strength training...  What does that have to do with trauma??  Wouldn't any kind of exercise work then? 

no. it's not just any exercise.   it is designed to trigger a specific response. involving the psoas muscles are a must.  there is typically a great deal of shaking as the trauma is being released.  the exercises building up - it designed to fatigue the muscles.  maybe 30 years ago, I learned some Asian medicine theorizes trauma memory is stored in muscles.  as they are fatigued, the 'memory of the trauma' can be released through shaking.

this technique is used for those suffering from PTSD - to good effect.

 

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6 minutes ago, Serebrinna said:

Children should live their own lives. We can be there and tell us. No more. Mistakes are experience

 

Interesting 3rd post.  Have you read through the thread?  What experiences have you had with your own children on this topic?

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18 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

Interesting 3rd post.  Have you read through the thread?  What experiences have you had with your own children on this topic?

i think there might be something in the dungeon, if you get my Harry Potter movie reference...

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2 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

i think there might be something in the dungeon, if you get my Harry Potter movie reference...

 

There is definitely something there.

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21 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

Thank you, Ruth for your detailed post. As I said, this thread has been fuel for thought for me to understand where and why I draw certain boundaries. The reason your #8 crossed a line for me is that in my imagination it would require a level of entanglement and detailed involvement that I don’t anticipate having with my kids in college. I don’t want to know that they are going to have a really tough 9 day period without them telling me that, because that means I would have reviewed and internalized their syllabi and deadlines. Now, maybe that’s not how it happened. Maybe your DS said “mom, I have a rough 9 days coming up. Could you help me prioritize and plan?”  If it we’re option B, I think I’d be ok with that. If it were option A, I’m not, because I cannot continue to be the keeper of the calendars and schedules and lists for 5 people forever. 

We all draw on our own experiences and this thread reminds me (again) of why I need therapy to work through some of this. I could not wait to leave home and vowed to never live at home again (I didn’t). I never once asked my parents for the kind of advice you’ve listed above. Best example I can think of - my parents found out I graduated first from law school when they got to the ceremony. It didn’t occur to me to discuss my life in that level of detail with them. 

So some of my boundaries are driven by pure mental exhaustion. And some are driven by my own relationship with my parents. The first probably won’t change. But the second deserves a closer look. I don’t want to have a kid who needs me so much that they text me multiple times a day to remind them what’s due on Thursday. But I would love a relationship where I’m one of the first people they tell about their successes and dreams. Or who they turn to for advice. That’s not the parent child relationship I have, so it’s hard for me to create it.

When I find myself unsure what to do as a parent, I use my MIL as my example. However, she can’t me my example in this area (dealing with ADHD in a child) because she likely has it herself and didn’t do any modeling / scaffolding / supporting in that area. So I’m flailing in a vacuum a bit. Which is why this board is very very helpful. 

As a fun comparison, our family motto is “never give up!” 

I connect with much in this post. I am one who felt my own parents virtually ignored me once I was in my teens. I felt they provided zero guidance and very little practical help. They are also extremely devout Christians, so there were many taboo subjects that could never be discussed because XYZ was just categorically “wrong,” so what was there to discuss? 

I very much wanted my kids, as young adults, to be able to talk to me, bounce ideas off me, ask for advice, mull certain things over philosophically without judgement, yet not be unable to move on something without my orchestration. This is the relationship I believe I have with my big kids. 

I also used my MIL as a model for many things, especially when I was in my 20s. IMO, she provided the right mix of advice and support, while yet being not at all enmeshed or helicopter-y to her own young adult kids. So, for example, she was very smart with money and she accurately predicted that certain land lots for sale in the area would surely increase in value. She advised my dh (before I met him; his early 20s) that, rather than move to an apartment as many of his friends were doing, he should stick around at the farm and buy a lot for the future. Honestly, this was probably the pivotal decision that changed his financial future for the better (by a lot). (Lol, a pun - buy a lot.) So, to me, a lot of the things my MIL did provided a template for how I wanted to be with my kids and, so far, it seems to be panning out. My dd was just Facetiming me from France, where she is teaching as part of a government program). She is considering her next steps; she wants to go to grad school and there are scholarships associated with the program she is currently in. She is talking to me about different ideas and what options she could choose. I cannot and will not be providing financial support anymore, nor am I doing any of the legwork to find out what programs she could pursue or what pros or cons would be there. But I will definitely note something I know, such as as, “Well, don’t forget if you move to that area, the cost of living is sky-high.” (I will say though, this is not my child with EF deficits.) 

 

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4 hours ago, seekinghim45 said:

 

So it is the shaking???  But I do a lot of those exact exercises with my coach and yes, my muscles shake. So I guess a side benefit for me is releasing trauma? Or do you have to think something while you do it. This video was much better.  The lady on the other one did WAY too much talking.  I couldn't take it, so I fast forwarded or did things at fast speed.  I do the wall thing all the time, but I guess you just sit there and shake???  Still don't get how it works but I'll take their/your word for it. 

the shaking - and allowing it to continue as they do in the video, is what helps release trauma from the muscles, safest while you are laying down. and you want it to continue for a good five minutes - or more.  the intensity can be controlled by the angle you hold your knees.  the shaking can get pretty intense.  if you are just standing up.

but it's not watching the videos - you need to listen to what is being said so you can hear the explanations.  

 

eta: "the wall thing" is just one exercise to fatigue the muscles building up to the shaking.  you dont' have to do "the wall" thing.

Edited by gardenmom5

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

the shaking - and allowing it to continue as they do in the video, is what helps release trauma from the muscles, safest while you are laying down. and you want it to continue for a good five minutes - or more.  the intensity can be controlled by the angle you hold your knees.  the shaking can get pretty intense.  if you are just standing up.

but it's not watching the videos - you need to listen to what is being said so you can hear the explanations.  

 

eta: "the wall thing" is just one exercise to fatigue the muscles building up to the shaking.  you dont' have to do "the wall" thing.

 

I wonder if it could help ADHD directly.  If perhaps some of the hyper activity is similar to trying to move out of trauma distress, but not working well to heal.  ????

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9 hours ago, seekinghim45 said:

 

So it is the shaking???  But I do a lot of those exact exercises with my coach and yes, my muscles shake. So I guess a side benefit for me is releasing trauma? Or do you have to think something while you do it. This video was much better.  The lady on the other one did WAY too much talking.  I couldn't take it, so I fast forwarded or did things at fast speed.  I do the wall thing all the time, but I guess you just sit there and shake???  Still don't get how it works but I'll take their/your word for it. 

 

The shakings are called neurogenic tremors and they are evoked by doing certain exercises. The exercises are just a way to get the tremors to begin. Once they begin, they can become very strong and last very long. It’s not muscle fatigue. There is something about the specific vibrations, the frequencies, and how they affect the central nervous system and physiology. It’s kind of complicated to understand exactly what the tremors are doing but they appear to have a profound effect on some people.

https://www.embodiedphilosophy.com/history-and-misunderstanding-of-body-tremors/

The shaking is something mammals naturally do to survive after a traumatic event but humans can suppress it especially in cases where they might appear vulnerable. So suppressing the tremors could be a survival mechanism. It’s not healthy to suppress them because that can lead to physiological changes which can make a person more or less vigilant than they should be in situations where they are actually safe.

The therapy is not cognitive, just physiological, so no need to ponder anything.

Stephen Porges’s Polyvagal Theory illustrates how trauma affects an individual psychologically, neurologically and then physiologically. Here’s a YouTube video he did with David Berceli, who developed TRE initially to treat his own PTSD decades ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n2ef6-jgzWU

This is my spotty understanding of how this all works.

Edited by BeachGal
My husband interrupting me every 5”.
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2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I wonder if it could help ADHD directly.  If perhaps some of the hyper activity is similar to trying to move out of trauma distress, but not working well to heal.  ????

Well that's a creative suggestion. I'm trying to think with you. One, it's not like you always always have a ton of shaking to do. For me, sometimes I have a backlog and just need to get it done. Sometimes it's like nope, done, I'm fine, doesn't need to do much. 

The thing that *does* somewhat come with it is just more mindful awareness, because you're really noticing your body in the moment. So in that sense, yes you get some bump. But as a treatment strategy for ADHD, probably not your substitute for meds, lol. 

But if you want to teach it to the dc, sure, knock yourself out. Some people really like it. It's WAY to intense for someone like my dd. And fwiw, I find it actually *fatiguing* sometimes. Like I probably wouldn't do it and then go do a long workout. And I don't usually do it after a workout. I used to, but not now. Now I'll usually stagger days or stick to just a walk. 

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I wonder if it could help ADHD directly.  If perhaps some of the hyper activity is similar to trying to move out of trauma distress, but not working well to heal.  ????

ADHD is physiological structure of the brain.

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9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Well that's a creative suggestion. I'm trying to think with you. One, it's not like you always always have a ton of shaking to do. For me, sometimes I have a backlog and just need to get it done. Sometimes it's like nope, done, I'm fine, doesn't need to do much. 

The thing that *does* somewhat come with it is just more mindful awareness, because you're really noticing your body in the moment. So in that sense, yes you get some bump. But as a treatment strategy for ADHD, probably not your substitute for meds, lol. 

But if you want to teach it to the dc, sure, knock yourself out. Some people really like it. It's WAY to intense for someone like my dd. And fwiw, I find it actually *fatiguing* sometimes. Like I probably wouldn't do it and then go do a long workout. And I don't usually do it after a workout. I used to, but not now. Now I'll usually stagger days or stick to just a walk. 

that's one of the things I've really liked about yoga - becoming very aware of my body, including its inner workings.   you just become much more "in tune".

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

ADHD is physiological structure of the brain.

Yeah, Pen's idea was kind of creative. And I don't know that I can say oh trauma would never manifest that way for ANYBODY. I mean, there is all kinds of work being done connecting trauma and challenging behaviors in school. But no, I personally wouldn't say the body motion of ADHD is connected to some attempt to get out trauma via the trembling. Some people just naturally do some of the trembling. Like maybe not the full blown gig, but they naturally do it. I remember after my FIL passed I did some shaking, just because that was a really intense experience. That was before I ever did TRE btw, and it was maybe the same idea but not to the same degree.

When you do TRE and you have stored memories, you connect them as they come out. And it's weird, like it started in the lower part of my body and over sessions worked up. So like the time I nearly drowned, my arms had been very fatigued, and that stored memory in my arms came out. I went into the counseling session and was like dude I can't figure out why my ARMS were hurting so much, lol. I mean, it's funny now, but it wasn't funny then. It's a really intense thing to do. 

But I say that, and a friend of mine who had had zero trauma ever (like yes, such people exist), did it and she's like nope, nothing interesting happened at all. I'm guessing she got it to tremble, but it was just nonrevelatory, like why bother. And me, I was realizing all these things and unpacking all these experiences and stored memories and it was astonishing. And afterwards all kinds of problems stopped with my bowels, headaches, persistent memories of things (bad instead of good), etc. 

Whatever, that's a rabbit trail. I'm a pretty boring person, so you wouldn't have thought I would have so many near death and extreme experiences to need trauma interventions. It was kind of an unexpected answer for me that made sense in hindsight.

Edited by PeterPan
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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

ADHD is physiological structure of the brain.

 

Imaging studies have shown a variety of physiological “differences”.   Yes.  

But musicians have differences from non-musicians.  And artists from non-artists.  Etc. Maybe they are already that way in utero. But almost certainly the use results in bigger areas with more neural connections in areas used.  And unused parts tend to be smaller.  Unused connections tend to be pruned. 

I don’t think it is clear whether the differences in brains can’t be affected by the continued behavior that is engaged in irl.  So inability to use EF well, results in smaller less developed prefrontal cortex, for example, resulting in less EF, perhaps in part from disuse, in addition to however it started. Another Downward spiral problem. 

or like where when dyslexia gets remediated, brains often look more like non dyslexic brains when scanned

I dunno.

 I was just musing in writing.

 

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I don’t know if I already linked this book or not.  I think it’s excellent, and might have listed it in best books I think everyone should read (though people with out any psychological issues in their families wouldn’t particularly benefit...unless maybe to avoid taking the wellness for granted and messing themselves up I suppose.) 

 

Nutrient Power: Heal Your Biochemistry and Heal Your Brain https://www.amazon.com/dp/1626361282/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_PXB0Db8XQV9DD

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

like where when dyslexia gets remediated, brains often look more like non dyslexic brains when scanned

 

You are SO correct on this, and it's why a cognitive strategy/instruction based approach, where people are intentionally engaging the frontal lobe and working on EF, can make a difference! And it's why suck it up buttercup doesn't quite get you there, because you actually need help to make that happen.

They're doing MRIs on kids getting PROMPT (my ds' apraxia treatment), and same gig they see good activation in the affected parts. So yeah, it's cool stuff being able to see MRIs and genes and have some data to drive interventions.

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Imaging studies have shown a variety of physiological “differences”.   Yes.  

But musicians have differences from non-musicians.  And artists from non-artists.  Etc. Maybe they are already that way in utero. But almost certainly the use results in bigger areas with more neural connections in areas used.  And unused parts tend to be smaller.  Unused connections tend to be pruned. 

I don’t think it is clear whether the differences in brains can’t be affected by the continued behavior that is engaged in irl.  So inability to use EF well, results in smaller less developed prefrontal cortex, for example, resulting in less EF, perhaps in part from disuse, in addition to however it started. Another Downward spiral problem. 

or like where when dyslexia gets remediated, brains often look more like non dyslexic brains when scanned

I dunno.

 I was just musing in writing.

 

 

It is an interesting connection. Trauma in children is often misdiagnosed as ADHD because they can look so similar on the outside. 

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On 11/16/2019 at 4:36 PM, fairfarmhand said:

IT really is important for adultish kids to know that they can bounce medical advice off of parents.

They just dont have the life experience, in general, to know what's what. Like figuring out what's serious and what is no big deal. When to press medical personnel and when to go with what they say.

My dd was dealing with UTI symptoms. Except  it didn't hurt when she peed. She (without me) went to nurse practitioner at our doctors office. NP saw symptoms, but said, well, since it's not burning, it's probably not a UTI. But didn't even take a urine sample.DD came home. I said. "Hey, when that happens it's ok to say, Well, while I'm here can I at least leave a sample for you, just in case."

(My dd never burns with a UTI) 

And a week later, my dd was back at the dr with a UTI. (still no burning, but the other symptoms were much worse.) 

But you really have to teach someone to self-advocate. As someone who's been to the dr a lot, I've got a pretty good sense of when something doesn't sound right. I didn't have this at 17, 18, or 19. Now my 22 yo dd goes to all of her appointments alone, but it took time for her to get there.

 

 

Yes, and let them know they can & should ask questions about family medical history. It can be really important if there are significant, possibly hereditary illnesses in the family.

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I was finally able to verify her grade for this assignment. An "A." She got an A in the class for the trimester. 

She was also named as the student of the trimester for her "team" at school (about a third of her 6th grade class that probably has ~200 kids).

So, it seems like everything is working ok!

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59 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

I was finally able to verify her grade for this assignment. An "A." She got an A in the class for the trimester. 

She was also named as the student of the trimester for her "team" at school (about a third of her 6th grade class that probably has ~200 kids).

So, it seems like everything is working ok!

Sometimes it’s hard to be behind the scenes when the cook is in the kitchen so to speak. It may look like a huge mess, but all turn out beautifully in the end. As parents, sometimes all we see is the mess and the world sees the finished product. Congrats to her.

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