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Letting your kid fail

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56 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


To the bolded, that is exactly what some have described/said/implied. Taking on tasks, not teaching or referring or facilitating, but literally doing things to prevent failure. It’s not even to prevent academic failure per se but unpleasant grooming and dietary consequences too...and not for pubescent people but the 18-24yos. 

Fwiw, as someone who is in the middle of doing college support, who knows that the outcome can be (for some kids) unemployable at the end, etc. etc., I'm pretty slow to criticize anyone else doing it. I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm just saying that's where I am. I know theory, but I don't know how it should really look for someone else. And I can't even morally say that college was worthless or not worth that effort even if (worst case scenario) the dc is unemployable. 

I mean, if the kid goes to college, needs support, gets married to a person who covers their butt (as women in this thread are doing for their men), and works a job, then who's complaining? No one, it worked out. But if the kid goes to college and is so overwhelmed he (ends his life), that would be a horrible outcome. I'm just saying as a mom that would be an unthinkably WORST SCENARIO. And then your other worst case scenario, at least to me, is unemployable or underemployed due to disability difficulties.

The moms aren't posting here, but there *are moms* here on the board who've had that happen. They could say what they think about that path. They might even think they'd do college again, even if they had known the dc wasn't going to be employable. 

I can just think of reasons why it's ok to support, where it might be achieving goals, where sometimes it was the logical path. 

There is a level of lack of support that would leave my dd unsafe. I'm not going to leave her floundering. We have to use our heads and we do what is best for our kids.

Think about the flip side too. If a dc needs support (not just accommodations, but actually SUPPORT, significant support, which is some of what people are describing here), what's the big deal? Independence is NOT the expected outcome for all kids and all scenarios. There are situations like "lives independently with support" and other in between stages. There are even states codifying this into with things like "facilitated decision making" where the person does not require a legal guardian but does require support. There is NOT the expectation among professionals that all kids would have the same outcomes, and in fact if you look at MGW's stuff she says the writing is on the wall at AGE 8. 

https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  

It's actually pretty simple in that sense. You read the profiles, find your dc, and you go ok this is the realistic expected outcome for independence in that profile. They can pretty well predict.

I don't consider myself someone who would live well independently. I never have lived independently, and I'm really not sure I could. And when I talk with my girlfriend about it (friend who is single), she laughs, like oh you'd get over it and suck up. And I'm like no, you really don't get it. But I actually have a PLAN. If I had to live independently, I would live in a resort community that would take care of facilities and I would part time on something like a cruise ship. I have really perfunctory ways I handle social things. Like haircuts? A couple times a year I pay the top person at the salon and I look the other way because I hate it. I moved my dad into assisted living and I have a plan for my ds that can probably work (independent living with us close by for meals, a paid weekly house keeper, division of his funds between care and discretionary, etc.). 

Whatever, we're really in the weeds. It's easy to confuse accommodations and supports. They aren't really the same. We're hearing both in this thread. And like I said, as someone in the position of doing it, I'm really slow to tell anyone else they're overboard. In the moment, you only can do what you think is best. It's easy for professionals to have hindsight and be oh so brilliantly objective and all that. 

Also, fwiw, it seems like anxiety is the decider on how things turn out, more than anything. Social anxiety, any kind of anxiety. Anxiety that causes a need for breaks. It's very clear my ds' stamina is reduced, that he wouldn't handle the pace of a 40-60 hour work week, no matter how smart he is. And some of that is very hard to see, because we're so hopeful for our kids.

I personally am pro growth on these choices. If the dc is growing, I think keep plowing. You don't know how things will, of a certainty, turn out. And most people I talk with (who aren't like me and this single focus badger of a personality) are like yeah COLLEGE WAS HARD. And they say it was hard for them and that they had to suck it up and tell themselves to keep going. And it's REALLY HARD when your kid is in the middle of that to tell where is the too hard and where it's the suck it up hard. And suck it up is literally a clinical deficit. The neuropsychs can test persistence, haha, and my dd's was so low. So when she calls with the drama, that's a lot for me to sort through. There's a lot of tough love there. 

So I would say my dd gets accommodations *and* support, and the people around her think it's appropriate. How it will turn out, I don't know. We just have to let it happen. I think reality is she's going to have kind of a quiet set point and find her place in the world, and college, in a way, is an artificial distraction from doing that. But it's also the thing that seemed to be the appropriate next step. Sigh.

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44 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

your DD is very likely to need some level of support in college

Oh I don't know. I mean, I'm diagnosed and I didn't bug my mom too much in college, except for money, haha. I also didn't use accommodations. My dh got through without accommodations or his parents holding his paw. 

I think it just varies with the kid and you roll with what you're seeing. I'd more want to see strong instruction on strategies, teaching them how to access tools and resources. Then you'll know ok they need help to access those resources or no they've got this. You'll know. It's all kind of obvious in the moment. The thing that isn't obvious is how much INSTRUCTION can be done. 

360 Thinking

https://www.socialthinking.com/Products/flipp-the-switch-strengthen-executive-function-skills

https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/31212/executive-functions-trainingelementary.aspx

To me it's kind of exciting, because it shifts it from the polarity (let her sink like I did) to teach and help them take over.

But really, if she's not motivated and the work isn't sufficient to warrant using strategies, she'll continue to mask and not bother.

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Just now, Little Green Leaves said:

I hear you. I guess it's hard for me to understand why it would matter if a 6th grader messes up one assignment. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or maybe people are responding to something I can't see yet. But it sounded to me like leaving the kid free to flounder would make sense in that case. 

 

I really do mean the question, I'm not being snarky. 

Most of the discussion in this thread actually has very little to do with a public schooled 6th grader messing up one project. I think most of the posts are a reaction against (1) the idea that "sink or swim" is an appropriate (or successful) approach to dealing with an ADHD student, (2) that it's unacceptable and inappropriate for parents to provide any EF support to college kids, and (3) that providing EF supports to people with ADHD beyond a certain age or grade equals coddling or helicoptering and will prevent kids from ever learning to advocate for themselves or develop their own management systems. None of those things are true.

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33 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

I am not sure what people are thinking scaffolding and supports are doing for certain kids.

Yeah, and other terribly unimportant things, like keeping them hygienic enough their roommates don't complain or keeping them from being desperate.

We really don't want our kids pushed to the BRINK. Stretch, grow, but not breaking. There are lines.

Edited by PeterPan
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14 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, and other terribly unimportant things, like keeping them hygienic enough their roommates don't complain or keeping them from being desperate.

We really don't want our kids pushed to the BRINK. Stretch, grow, but not breaking. There are lines.


True story. I had an odor issue with my roommate. It was so bad I slept on the couch for six months. Some sorority chicks moved her in with us before Christmas. We bought her a gift basket of hygiene products for the holidays. Turns out her parents had cut her off because she moved to heathen Los Angeles for college. She cried. The smell was gone. You can actually develop relationships with the people you live with in college, talk to them, and form support systems that way too.

Edited by Sneezyone
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3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


True story. I had an odor issue with my roommate. It was so bad I slept on the couch for six months. Some sorority chicks moved her in with us before Christmas. We bought her a gift basket of hygiene products for the holidays. Turns out her parents had cut her of because she moved to heathen Los Angeles for college. She cried. The smell was gone. You can actually develop relationships with the people you live with in college, talk to them, and form support systems that way too.

Oh my goodness! Well I'm glad you worked it out and helped her!!

Yes, everyone needs love, and love is a good choice. And sometimes love is a loving push, haha. But here, love won. Great story.

Edited by PeterPan
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5 hours ago, unsinkable said:

the other issue I have been mulling over is educational philosophy. And brick&mortar school vs. homeschool.

As a homeschooler, I taught to mastery. I didn't give "grades" so there was no "failing" or "failure," especially in middle school.

Also, "projects" were not really assigned by me...if by projects you mean: make a pyramid and write a paper or make a diorama and give a report on it. That is a craft plus a writing assignment. If my kids did a writing assignment, it wasn't done until it met the requirements of the assignments. And they could do any amount or type of crafts on their own. it wasn't school work, and it wasn't for a grade.

i haven't done a census of the thread but it seems like the pro 'letting your kid fail' contingent is mostly made up of B&M schoolers...or maybe just the ones posting the most?

 

I think there are good points made by both sides of the argument; ex-homeschooler who had one child in brick&mortar for a short period of time.

I suppose where I land is that you can drag a horse to water but you can't make it drink. 

I had a young person with me for tutoring all this year. Young person had been diagnosed with dysgraphia as a younger child. YP's written work clearly (to me) indicated that dysgraphia was impacting on his writing ability. YP was sitting high stakes exam. I spent a lot of time explaining to YP that he needed to apply for accomodations and why (so that he was starting from a similar starting point in exams to his NT peers), communicated with parents about it, communicated with his school (disinterested), supported YP in discussing how he felt about accomodations blah blah blah anyway the point being, he needed 'em, I was pro getting them, I worked hard to help him be in a place emotionally to ask for them (as did his parent). Did he apply ? No.

He took his high stakes exam from way behind the starting line, and there will be relatively important consequence, grade-wise, to him for that. He understands that. On the day of the exam, he ruefully said to me 'Should have applied'.

Now, this is a young adult. It's not possible or even - I think - desirable to force him to accept and use accomodations. Even had the school applied on his behalf, they can't compel him to use them.

I think he's learned something from failing to do so, even though my goal all along was to help him get to a place where he asked for and used the damn accomodations.  I don't think he's been condemned to some terrible life, either, by this particular learning experience. He'll be OK. He's learning. I don't consider him to have failed at all, actually.

The OP seemed to be in a similar position - offering the scaffold, encouraging the scaffold, but having a child who resisted the scaffold. I'm a bit bemused by those who say 'well,  make her'. I dunno; I tried to scaffold my dd in school, and it was a disaster because, again, she did not want it. A lot of conflict. How can one force a child to use scaffolds ? I'm not entirely sure why the OP's post triggered so much angst, tbh. 

Anyway. I have lightly scaffolded one of my dd's away at college in her first year. I think that was fine. I'm not in a position to offer more than light, and easing to little anyway, so it's lucky for her she doesn't have EF problems. (She does have moderate dyscalculia, and refused all my light scaffolding re maths centre and tutor for stats classes. I have no idea how she passed those classes, except through sheer graft!)

Not all parents are in a position to continue to coach children, even if they have EF issues, sadly. I have a confirmation bias for things that seem a bit m/c to me, and the expectation that good mothers can always coach and scaffold their children as long as they need it, well into adulthood and sometimes intensively, seems a wee bit - idk - of a particular bubble - to me ? But that could just be my internal bias, happy to own it. 

I basically think everyone has good points in this convo. But I remain bemused at how one forces a child to accept and use accomodations in the quest to avoid failure. 

 

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4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I was pro getting them, I worked hard to help him be in a place emotionally to ask for them (as did his parent). Did he apply ? No.

Fwiw, I didn't compel my dd to apply for or use the accommodations for SAT/ACT. She didn't want to and was satisfied with her scores without. Also it limited her on what she could do, because she knew she wouldn't be able to do exams that required essay writing. So, like your student, we allowed it to be a choice with her dealing with the consequences of that. 

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1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Or even work for that particular child once he's in college.

 

And when you can no longer "punish" a 19 or 20 year old college student for not finishing his work by preventing him from hanging out with friends, what then?

My 2e dyslexic/dysgraphic/ADHD child uses full academic accommodations through his uni’s DSS.  He’s a leader in his frat, serves on the SGA, and maintains his gpa to keep his partial scholarship. I serve as an EF coach.  My little birdie is flying.  Thank-you for asking.  I pray every day that he keeps trying.

ETA:  BTW, he lives 1.5 hours away and resides on campus.

Edited by Heathermomster
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7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

to continue to coach children, even if they have EF issues

Also, at least where dd is, they don't WANT the parent doing too much. They'd rather do it themselves. And some of the schools where dd did online work were very hawkish. You could use their online services but they didn't want parents anywhere near what was going on. Now they meant because of fraud and parents doing the work, but that's going to drive it somewhat on the rest. They want the dc requesting the services, the dc using what is provided on campus. 

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2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Also, at least where dd is, they don't WANT the parent doing too much. They'd rather do it themselves. And some of the schools where dd did online work were very hawkish. You could use their online services but they didn't want parents anywhere near what was going on. Now they meant because of fraud and parents doing the work, but that's going to drive it somewhat on the rest. They want the dc requesting the services, the dc using what is provided on campus. 


This is the military perspective as well. Parental calls re:pay, housing, vacations, etc. will earn you a talking to from a superior and a lot of snickering from peers.

Edited by Sneezyone
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Just now, PeterPan said:

Fwiw, I didn't compel my dd to apply for or use the accommodations for SAT/ACT. She didn't want to and was satisfied with her scores without. Also it limited her on what she could do, because she knew she wouldn't be able to do exams that required essay writing. So, like your student, we allowed it to be a choice with her dealing with the consequences of that. 

 

Which has to be OK, in the end, unless we have magic that can compel students to make a different choice. 

What's been interesting in this thread is getting a different perspective, though, on the value of failure. My personal perspective on failure is shaped by giftedness and perfectionism - an internal taboo against failure that took till my 40's to face, overcome and change (through, yep, 'failure').

However, I think it's good for me to remember that kids with LD's have plenty of experience of 'failure' and they may not need the same lessons someone like me needed (more failure). Anyway, interesting. 

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1 minute ago, Heathermomster said:

I serve as an EF coach.

And if I were guessing, that is probably fading somewhat and maybe in sort of the range of parenting level. You're not in there with his syllabii writing his assignments into his planner, haha. He's been doing that for himself. He's doing stellarly. He's using his tech and problem solving. He's clearly doing well and DOING it. 

This is the kind of thing where success breeds success.

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3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Also, at least where dd is, they don't WANT the parent doing too much. They'd rather do it themselves. And some of the schools where dd did online work were very hawkish. You could use their online services but they didn't want parents anywhere near what was going on. Now they meant because of fraud and parents doing the work, but that's going to drive it somewhat on the rest. They want the dc requesting the services, the dc using what is provided on campus. 

 

Yeah, dd is like that. I knew she needed the light scaffolding, because she was accepting it, but she refused it as soon as she could.  But again, no EF issues with dd, so the risk of letting her go was relatively low. 

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

My personal perspective on failure is shaped by giftedness and perfectionism - an internal taboo against failure that took till my 40's to face, overcome and change (through, yep, 'failure').

Funny little story for you. I was incredibly perfectionist in high school. Like I literally had all A+s on my report card and was devastated when I got an A. I kid you not. Then I came to this school (for the gifted, haha) where they tossed grades completely. They sorta kept them somewhere, but there was no rank, they de-emphasized them, and basically they said try anything and hang the grades. And I was so all/nothing that that seemed libertine and like a good idea!

So when I went to college, I did the same thing, totally ignoring my grades. I still have no clue what grades I made. I graduated. I'm fine. So tossing the grades was mentally healthy for me and kind of the antidote to the worry. 

With dd, she got kind of competitive when she started online classes and was noticing. I never gave her grades, but then she had them and noticed. I just told her to try to hold her scholarship. She does. Sometimes I suggest to her she try something she thinks she can't do and see if she surprises herself. Like a C will be good enough, but give it a shot and see if you surprise yourself.

I think you give the guidance that is helpful for the kid.

4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

However, I think it's good for me to remember that kids with LD's have plenty of experience of 'failure' and they may not need the same lessons someone like me needed (more failure).

Yup, unfortunately with her mix, anything in her disability areas (getting out language, etc.) is hard. So yeah, she doesn't need to be ragged harder. And she's not even diagnosed with an SLD, sigh. Sometimes it really sucks. But that's a rabbit trail.

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2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

And if I were guessing, that is probably fading somewhat and maybe in sort of the range of parenting level. You're not in there with his syllabii writing his assignments into his planner, haha. He's been doing that for himself. He's doing stellarly. He's using his tech and problem solving. He's clearly doing well and DOING it. 

This is the kind of thing where success breeds success.

Thank-you.

At the beginning of the year, we talk strategy, but he’s sorting it.  

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4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yeah, dd is like that. I knew she needed the light scaffolding, because she was accepting it, but she refused it as soon as she could.  But again, no EF issues with dd, so the risk of letting her go was relatively low. 

We did faded supports. So her 2nd year they took the EF coach to consultative, and when dd would call me with a problem I'd ask whether she had used her resources and asked her people. :wink:  Now this year, her 3rd year, she'll say she has a problem and then in the same breath say how she's solving it and who she talked with to work it out. She's learning how it rolls.

Think about this too (just throwing this out there for anyone). If EF is 30% behind, then you're providing support to someone who might have the problem solving skills of someone younger. It is NOT immoral to continue to provide that instruction and get them up to speed. You wouldn't throw a NT 15 yo on campus un supported, and yet your gifted 18 yo might have the problem solving ability of a 15 yo or someone even much younger. It's normal to need continued support in those situations.

And look at what I just said about my dd. Now 3 years in, she's doing what a more NT dc might have done at 18. Imagine that, the math was right. 

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5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

We did faded supports. So her 2nd year they took the EF coach to consultative, and when dd would call me with a problem I'd ask whether she had used her resources and asked her people. :wink:  Now this year, her 3rd year, she'll say she has a problem and then in the same breath say how she's solving it and who she talked with to work it out. She's learning how it rolls.

Think about this too (just throwing this out there for anyone). If EF is 30% behind, then you're providing support to someone who might have the problem solving skills of someone younger. It is NOT immoral to continue to provide that instruction and get them up to speed. You wouldn't throw a NT 15 yo on campus un supported, and yet your gifted 18 yo might have the problem solving ability of a 15 yo or someone even much younger. It's normal to need continued support in those situations.

And look at what I just said about my dd. Now 3 years in, she's doing what a more NT dc might have done at 18. Imagine that, the math was right. 

 

I mean, I guess that's the point of scaffolds - you fade them. There's only a difference, really, in when you fade them.

I'd agree with the age thing. Eldest is undiagnosed but likely is dealing with autistic traits (bad mom didn't know anything about autism in girls when she was a girl, sadly). I mentally subtract a couple of years from her social age. Not because she's immature - she is very mature - but because it helped me not get in the way of her getting herself somewhere near speed.

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19 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

...someone else wanting to get laundry service for the kids...

 

Davidson College had free at the point of service, full laundry service for students until 2015 (they dropped it off and a laundry center and picked it up). It was included in their student fees. Now they have to do it themselves, although it is still free. Pretty astonishing.

Edited by TechWife
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4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:


This is exactly the kind of support I think kids should get (with the caveat that I am more inclined to let my kids choose my role once they leave), particularly in middle/high school. That doesn’t mean not help. It means targeted help, learning your strengths, weaknesses, resources, etc. so that I can be out of a job. I was roundly criticized for saying that I think finding colleges that can/will meet these needs and learning to identify/articulate needs and advocate for them should be part of the work of secondary education (for those who need it).

No one criticized the idea that "learning to identify/articulate needs and advocate for them should be part of the work of secondary education." We are all doing those things, and have been for years. The pushback was against the implication that if you do those things, there would be no need for parental support beyond the age of 18. This is not an either/or choice — teach them the skills to find their own resources or keep helping them. It doesn't matter how good they are at advocating for themselves and using all available resources, if the resources they need are not available.

Also, you said that you would not allow even a very bright kid to start college until they were fully capable of functioning with zero EF support from you, so that got a response from folks with very bright kids currently in college who feel that holding them back, possibly for years, because of brain issues they have no control over, can be not only demoralizing and damaging to the student, but may be entirely futile.

As far as finding colleges that can meet all of a student's EF needs, that is certainly an option. Just be aware that this may be harder than you think, and it may involve significant trade-offs, such as limiting your child to schools that may be below (sometimes well below) their academic level and/or may not offer the programs/courses/majors they want. And those things in turn may limit future career and educational prospects. 

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7 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

This thread is very odd to me.  When DS was at home, he only had a few responsibilities one of which was obeying his parents and teachers and the other was doing it with a happy heart.  Obviously, those goals were difficult at times, but they were always expected.

My DS was never given an option to complete his school work.  When DS was in 6th grade, I made every effort to communicate with his school and teachers because everyone knew that he had multiple SLDs, and we were working together as a team.  The teachers held my DS to much higher standard that they held themselves.  It was a private school and DS wanted to be there because he grew up with those kids.  When a big assignment was assigned, the staff knew we needed the assignment early so that DS and I could break it down together.  If DS chose not to complete the assignment, I considered that to be disobeying, like whether he refused point blank to take out the trash after being told to do so.  Not completing homework has never been an option whether EF struggles were present or not because we gave him no excuse and he was expected to comply.

So my question is this.  The OP's DD completed the assignment and may likely be awarded an A.  How will the OP be punishing her child at home?  Because as far as I can tell, she told to DD to work on the project and the DD disobeyed her.  I am much more concerned about that lesson than I am about one associated with the grade. 

 

The big thing to remember is that children with ADHD aren't disobeying. They have a disability. There is a huge difference. Disabilities don't get punished.

Think of it this way - if someone were in a wheelchair and you told them to get up and walk, and they didn't, would you say they were disobedient? It's the same thing. People with ADHD have EF issues - their brain doesn't work the same way that a NT person's brain does.  Among other things, it means that they don't experience time the way that NT people do and often they have difficulty connection actions & consequences if they are separated by a period of time. There are tons of other things that go hand in hand with it as well.

My son went to a private school K-2. Every single thing he did wrong was deemed disobedience. I never should have left him in there past kindergarten. First grade was a nightmare and second grade only slightly better. I learned this lesson the hard way & I feel compelled to repeat it - disability is not disobedience.

 

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43 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

My 2e dyslexic/dysgraphic/ADHD child uses full academic accommodations through his uni’s DSS.  He’s a leader in his frat, serves on the SGA, and maintains his gpa to keep his partial scholarship. I serve as an EF coach.  My little birdie is flying.  Thank-you for asking.  I pray every day that he keeps trying.

ETA:  BTW, he lives 1.5 hours away and resides on campus.

My 2e ADHD/dyslexic/SPD kiddo is 2400 miles away, unfortunately. I'm glad both of our boys are still getting the EF support they need.

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38 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 

The big thing to remember is that children with ADHD aren't disobeying. They have a disability. There is a huge difference. Disabilities don't get punished.

Think of it this way - if someone were in a wheelchair and you told them to get up and walk, and they didn't, would you say they were disobedient? It's the same thing. People with ADHD have EF issues - their brain doesn't work the same way that a NT person's brain does.  Among other things, it means that they don't experience time the way that NT people do and often they have difficulty connection actions & consequences if they are separated by a period of time. There are tons of other things that go hand in hand with it as well.

My son went to a private school K-2. Every single thing he did wrong was deemed disobedience. I never should have left him in there past kindergarten. First grade was a nightmare and second grade only slightly better. I learned this lesson the hard way & I feel compelled to repeat it - disability is not disobedience.

 

Yeah, I have seen punishment of ADHD behavior backfire spectacularly in some cases, including extended family. I'm sincerely glad it worked OK in the previous poster's case, but the outcome is not always positive — and you don't always know how badly it backfired until the damage is done.

Edited by Corraleno
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27 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 

The big thing to remember is that children with ADHD aren't disobeying. They have a disability. There is a huge difference. Disabilities don't get punished.

Think of it this way - if someone were in a wheelchair and you told them to get up and walk, and they didn't, would you say they were disobedient? It's the same thing. People with ADHD have EF issues - their brain doesn't work the same way that a NT person's brain does.  Among other things, it means that they don't experience time the way that NT people do and often they have difficulty connection actions & consequences if they are separated by a period of time. There are tons of other things that go hand in hand with it as well.

My son went to a private school K-2. Every single thing he did wrong was deemed disobedience. I never should have left him in there past kindergarten. First grade was a nightmare and second grade only slightly better. I learned this lesson the hard way & I feel compelled to repeat it - disability is not disobedience.

 

Look at my pic and see that little girl in the wheelchair?  That is my sister.

I understand full well that disability is not disobedience.  Read on in the thread where I clarified my comments.  

I cannot fathom telling my 6th grader to sit down and work on their assignments and then getting crickets.  I mentioned supplying the scaffolding as well.  My DS issues involved getting the completed work safely turned into the teacher inbox, not the actual completion of the assignment.

Edited by Heathermomster
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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:


This is the military perspective as well. Parental calls re:pay, housing, vacations, etc. will earn you a talking to from a superior and a lot of snickering from peers.

Okay, I have to seriously ask-- How exactly does a parent get through to a superior on a phone call in the military? I wouldn't think that would be possible due to privacy matter since these are adults? 

I honestly would feel bad for the person if that happened. What if the person had fled psychotic controlling parents or something and they tracked him down? You can't control what other people do or who they call. 

ETA- if the person said something like "Hey, can you talk to my Mom?" that would obviously be very different! 

Edited by Æthelthryth the Texan
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11 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

Look at my pic and see that little girl the wheelchair?  That is my sister.

I understand full well that disability is not disobedience.  Read on in the thread where I clarified my comments.  

I cannot fathom telling my 6th grader to sit down and work on their assignments and then getting crickets.  I mentioned supplying the scaffolding as well.  My DS issues involved getting the completed work safely turned into the teacher inbox.

 

I can't see anything other than cute faces in your picture.

You asked how the OP would be punishing her child at home. My answer is - don't punish a child for a disability. To be clearer, the OP should do absolutely nothing in the way of punishment.

Straightforward person that I am,  I think you should be grateful you can't "fathom" getting crickets. Because in our house, it isn't "crickets" - it's the confusion/misunderstanding/disorganization/etc. that comes along with EF issues. I am not sure you fully understand the nature of EF issues and how they affect daily life. 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Okay, I have to seriously ask-- How exactly does a parent get through to a superior on a phone call in the military? I wouldn't think that would be possible due to privacy matter since these are adults? 

I honestly would feel bad for the person if that happened. What if the person had fled psychotic controlling parents or something and they tracked him down? You can't control what other people do or who they call. 

ETA- if the person said something like "Hey, can you talk to my Mom?" that would obviously be very different! 

If they know the unit it can be easy. Call the base/post operator, ask to talk to the first sergeant (other appropriate position) for x unit.

Unit phone numbers and bios of key personnel are often available on official unit websites.

I had a family member track me down on my very first day at a new base; which was fine, I was just surprised because I didn't even know my own office number yet. I was shocked to hear their voice when the phone rang!

Edited by maize
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2 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I'm new here and my kids are still small, so I just wanted to say that this has been a really useful discussion for me. 

I dealt with a lot of my own executive dysfunctions as a child and young person -- heck, I still deal with it. It was far, far milder than what some of you are describing, but it was enough so that I lost all my gloves and lunchboxes and transit passes, didn't turn in assignments or study for tests, and generally missed out on administrative information. As a child I firmly believed that I was missing meetings at which everyone else was given key information. (Spoiler: I wasn't missing meetings. I was just lost in a dream world.) The academics were never a problem, but everything else!

I wasn't given much scaffolding by my parents. They simply didn't think that way. And I intend to do far more for my own kids. It's lovely to read about what everyone here does.

At the same time. This thread has made me nostalgic for what my parents DID give me -- a sense of great freedom and confidence in my own ability to improvise. I have fond memories of walking for miles to high school (because I had lost my transit pass and spent all my money); staying up all night to do a year's worth of math homework, with only the radio for company; failing, here and there, and making friends with the other "screw up" kids.

I know that you're all talking about more serious EF than I dealt with. But there IS something to be said with letting kids explore their own abilities, in a safe space. There IS something to be said for failing, within reason, now and then.

The bolded just cracked me up. This was not something I ever did, but that is my DS. He had days like that. For all I know, he may still have some in college, but he gets grades I’m comfortable with, so method doesn’t bother me much at this point. 

I also laughed at what you said about “missed meetings,” because that was me as a middle and high schooler. I was always much more interested in my internal thoughts than, say, the morning announcements. I even remember sometimes I would try to “discipline” myself and I would say, “Now, this morning, you’re going to listen to those announcements! I’m sure they are saying something I should know...” but then they would start yammering about which athlete did an amazing play/assist/touchdown/home run/whatever in sports, which didn’t interest me, so off I’d be, in Cerebral Land again. 

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23 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 

I can't see anything other than cute faces in your picture.

You asked how the OP would be punishing her child at home. My answer is - don't punish a child for a disability. To be clearer, the OP should do absolutely nothing in the way of punishment.

Straightforward person that I am,  I think you should be grateful you can't "fathom" getting crickets. Because in our house, it isn't "crickets" - it's the confusion/misunderstanding/disorganization/etc. that comes along with EF issues. I am not sure you fully understand the nature of EF issues and how they affect daily life. 

 

 

 

What part of sitting down at the table and breaking down assignments with my DS makes me not understand EF?  I’ve literally sat by my child every school day for 6 years.  

Btw: I heard plenty of crickets at the table.  Her child never made it to the table.  

Edited by Heathermomster
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19 minutes ago, maize said:

If they know the unit it can be easy. Call the base/post operator, ask to talk to the first sergeant (other appropriate position) for x unit.

Unit phone numbers and bios of key personnel are often available on official unit websites.

I had a family member track me down on my very first day at a new base; which was fine, I was just surprised because I didn't even know my own office number yet. I was shocked to hear their voice when the phone rang!

Wow! I had no idea. That seems very.......non-secure! 

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41 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Okay, I have to seriously ask-- How exactly does a parent get through to a superior on a phone call in the military? I wouldn't think that would be possible due to privacy matter since these are adults? 

I honestly would feel bad for the person if that happened. What if the person had fled psychotic controlling parents or something and they tracked him down? You can't control what other people do or who they call. 

ETA- if the person said something like "Hey, can you talk to my Mom?" that would obviously be very different! 


What Maize said. Also, “Talk to my mom” is not a good look either. You can pass mom’s contact info to the Ombudsman or family group but that’s about it. Spouses are counseled not to call too. You might be surprised how many parents call the command. Sometimes, yes, it is a needy/controlling parent. Mostly they are well-meaning but unwelcome.

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3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


What Maize said. Also, “Talk to my mom” is not a good look either. You can pass mom’s contact info to the Ombudsman or family group but that’s about it. Spouses are counseled not to call too. You might be surprised how many parents call the command. Sometimes, yes, it is a needy/controlling parent. Mostly they are well-meaning but unwelcome.

I just can't fathom a parent, spouse, or anything else ever calling a person's workplace unless there was a dire emergency or death! This is very stunning to me, and if you'd asked me where it would happen the military would have been my least likely pick. This is all very eye opening as far as the military part. No idea the info was that readily available. 

Edited by Æthelthryth the Texan
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33 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Okay, I have to seriously ask-- How exactly does a parent get through to a superior on a phone call in the military? I wouldn't think that would be possible due to privacy matter since these are adults? 

I honestly would feel bad for the person if that happened. What if the person had fled psychotic controlling parents or something and they tracked him down? You can't control what other people do or who they call. 

ETA- if the person said something like "Hey, can you talk to my Mom?" that would obviously be very different! 

If you know what unit your person is in,  you can usually get some kind of duty desk number to call. Maybe you don't get ahold of the first line supervisor, but you get someone who knows enough to pass along the message to the right people. That is, the people who are going to yell at your person and/or make fun of them for having your mom call in. 

I was thinking about this thread in light of the military. It's interesting that people say punitive doesn't work for EFDs. That's almost the entire structure of the military. Get your hair cut,  keep your room clean, study, show up on time,  shine your boots, etc. All of that is enforced via an entirely punitive system of consequences, recruits come from all walks of life with all different sorts of LDs and abilities, it's very sink or swim + high pressure with stakes of failure being pretty high...and yet all kinds of people manage to make it through training (both boot camp and technical schools). There are known elite jobs and tougher schools with higher attrition rates, but even then, a lot of the reasons are medical or stuff like that. I wonder what makes this work for the military effectively? (I'm not arguing parents should be drill sergeants,  just wondering about the effectiveness aspect).

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3 minutes ago, EmseB said:

If you know what unit your person is in,  you can usually get some kind of duty desk number to call. Maybe you don't get ahold of the first line supervisor, but you get someone who knows enough to pass along the message to the right people. That is, the people who are going to yell at your person and/or make fun of them for having your mom call in. 

I was thinking about this thread in light of the military. It's interesting that people say punitive doesn't work for EFDs. That's almost the entire structure of the military. Get your hair cut,  keep your room clean, study, show up on time,  shine your boots, etc. All of that is enforced via an entirely punitive system of consequences, recruits come from all walks of life with all different sorts of LDs and abilities, it's very sink or swim + high pressure with stakes of failure being pretty high...and yet all kinds of people manage to make it through training (both boot camp and technical schools). There are known elite jobs and tougher schools with higher attrition rates, but even then, a lot of the reasons are medical or stuff like that. I wonder what makes this work for the military effectively? (I'm not arguing parents should be drill sergeants,  just wondering about the effectiveness aspect).

It seems like they weed a lot of people out ahead of time though don't they with the testing? And then another set with bootcamp? 

I know some of the guys I went to high school with got all sort of various discharges within the first year. These were the slacker dudes in most cases, and would end up with admin, or some random medical discharge- not dishonorable- but they didn't keep them past 6 months either. And they always had an excuse of they were let out- maybe it was legit, but it just happened to be the same guys who didn't have it together in high school either and were skipping class to smoke weed. 

Edited by Æthelthryth the Texan

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3 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

So, a few follow ups. I did have the conversation about procrastination / sleep and it was so enlightening that I'm so so so so glad I kept my mouth shut for once. So, first of all, she had already prepared her entire script in PPT in Spanish before she started filming. I don't know if the teacher scaffolded this, but I was really pleased with that. I talked to her about losing sleep, and she admitted that it would have been better to finish earlier, but that the only way that would have worked was on the weekend, and she didn't remember it on the weekend. I told her that if I were in her shoes, I probably would have chosen something simpler that didn't need to "prove" for 2 hours. She had an absolutely brilliant response. First, she said that she wanted something that matched the Dia de los Muertos theme of the class. Second, she said she got more points for having more complicated ingredients to translate. And third, she said that it didn't really matter what it tasted like because she just had to do the video, not actually bring in the food. It seemed to me these were all very wise choices in retrospect. 

With respect to putting the videos together into iMovie, frankly, she probably could have done it on the bus ride. I don't love that because she gets motion sick, but I was floored at how quickly she was able to do that. Clearly I'm an old fart who is slow at technology.

I keep checking for a grade, or trying to find the grading rubric, and I haven't been able to find it. She has had trouble turning it in because of technology, and I've been reminding her to follow up on that daily, but I usually can still find the assignment on my end. So it's weird that I can't.

We usually do our planning / calendaring discussions on Sundays, but I'm realizing that with some of these more complicated projects, we need to do them on Saturday mornings so that we have a chance to work on the weekend if needed.

Long story short, in this instance, I learned far more than she did, likely. I hope she gets an A (assuming what she's telling me about the grading rubric is true). I feel like my parenting wins are so few and far between, and I so often over-talk and over-lecture instead of just taking a step back and seeing where it leads me. I told her I was so proud of her. She showed me the video fully edited and it was absolutely adorable. She had some scenes of time-lapse, and she added sound over them, and was just generally brilliant. She got her middle sister to help, and even the 5 year old's hand waiving an American flag (because..why not?) appeared in the background and made us all laugh. 

 

Yay!  That sounds remarkably well planned for any 11- 12yo, let alone one with adhd/EF issues!!!

good for her, and reading  that, I hope she gets an A too. 

Saturday review sounds like it will help a lot also.  

Btw I have had a tendency toward motion sickness problems, but did a lot of schoolwork on bus and subway in my day.  Some types of work can help motion sickness rather than make it worse. 

 

I tend to overtalk and overlecture too.  I’m glad you had a Mama Win on this! 

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3 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I just can't fathom a parent, spouse, or anything else ever calling a person's workplace unless there was a dire emergency or death! This is very stunning to me, and if you'd asked me where it would happen the military would have been my least likely pick. This is all very eye opening as far as the military part. No idea the info was that readily available. 


It happens all.the.time and perhaps skews my view on the issue. We have people flying and repairing planes, responsible for onboard nuclear reactors, at 18-24 and they are not disqualified for EF deficits. They are screened by test scores and grades. There are incredibly bright but scattered people who thrive in this structured environment.

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I feel like some of you Military knowledgable people have also mentioned to that the bar rises and falls with need? 

I'm not saying there's nothing to the tough tactic- It just seems like they could do a pretty good initial purging of non-optimal applicants if they wanted to. 

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3 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

It seems like they weed a lot of people out ahead of time though don't they with the testing? And then another set with bootcamp? 

I know some of the guys I went to high school with got all sort of various discharges within the first year. These were the slacker dudes in most cases, and would end up with admin, or some random medical discharge- not dishonorable- but they didn't keep them past 6 months either. And they always had an excuse of they were let out- maybe it was legit, but it just happened to be the same guys who didn't have it together in high school either and were skipping class to smoke weed. 


The weed outs re:grades and test scores don’t affect EF. The weed outs at boot camp are usually physical/mental in nature. People don’t get a choice about whether or when to eat/study/shower/shave.

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:


It happens all.the.time and perhaps skews my view on the issue. We have people flying and repairing planes, responsible for onboard nuclear reactors, at 18-24 and they are not disqualified for EF deficits. They are screened by test scores and grades. There are incredibly bright but scattered people who thrive in this structured environment.

It would be interesting to see the difference if there were a draft type situation vs voluntary enlistment on the outcome. Because I would think by default, if you were voluntarily signing up you might see and realize that you need that structure- which would be a different outcome to someone who wouldn't thrive in the situation, if that makes sense. 

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:


The weed outs re:grades and test scores don’t affect EF. The weed outs at boot camp are usually physical/mental in nature. People don’t get a choice about whether or when to eat/study/shower/shave.

See, I would think testing and EF would go hand and hand to an extent, because can't/don't people study up for the ASVAB (or whatever it's called)? I would consider EF a mental framework tbh, so for me it's hard to separate the two on the weed out part. You either can get your $ together or you cannot type of thing. Unless they can make them get their S together. I don't know how that works- my Dad was a Marine, but I was never in the military and I'm guessing things were a *lot* different when he was in. Not to mention they started drafting people a few years after he went in, so different times. 

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49 minutes ago, TechWife said:

in our house, it isn't "crickets" - it's the confusion/misunderstanding/disorganization/etc. that comes along with EF issues. I am not sure you fully understand the nature of EF issues and how they affect daily life. 

Fwiw, it could be there are more issues going on there than just EF. Language disabilities, ASD, there's certainly more that would explain what you're describing than EF. To say Heather doesn't get EF is to assume everything you were experiencing was because of EF. Just because a person has EF issues doesn't mean they ONLY have EF issues. 

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1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

No one criticized the idea that "learning to identify/articulate needs and advocate for them should be part of the work of secondary education." We are all doing those things, and have been for years. The pushback was against the implication that if you do those things, there would be no need for parental support beyond the age of 18. This is not an either/or choice — teach them the skills to find their own resources or keep helping them. It doesn't matter how good they are at advocating for themselves and using all available resources, if the resources they need are not available.

Also, you said that you would not allow even a very bright kid to start college until they were fully capable of functioning with zero EF support from you, so that got a response from folks with very bright kids currently in college who feel that holding them back, possibly for years, because of brain issues they have no control over, can be not only demoralizing and damaging to the student, but may be entirely futile.

As far as finding colleges that can meet all of a student's EF needs, that is certainly an option. Just be aware that this may be harder than you think, and it may involve significant trade-offs, such as limiting your child to schools that may be below (sometimes well below) their academic level and/or may not offer the programs/courses/majors they want. And those things in turn may limit future career and educational prospects. 


Again, not what I said. My version of scaffolding and yours are not the same but, yes, I did say that there were things I was not willing to regularly do for a child that DH and I deem college ready. College ready for us includes EF skills and/or self-advocacy.

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5 minutes ago, TechWife said:

My DS' issues started with working on his ability to sit in a chair without falling out of it and go on from there, so ????

I don't see failing to put work into the teacher inbox as a discipline issue.

DS lasted two months in kindergarten before he came home sobbing that the teacher told him "no one would ever love a boy like me." When I called the principal, I discovered that he was getting sent to her office nearly every day for "disobedience" like not sitting still, not being quiet, not following directions, not paying attention, etc. A four year old. He never went back.

He started 1st grade at a Montesssori school (which allows for lots of movement) but by 3rd grade he was way behind in reading and math, his dyslexia was more than apparent, and his teacher was concerned he needed SpEd services the school didn't have. So I put him in PS, where I (stupidly) thought he would get the help he needed. I was helping with a project in class one day and got to see what his day was like. The teacher would mumble while standing with her back to the class, but when he asked her to repeat something, she'd snap at him at him for "not paying attention." I watched him stare out the window, become totally focused on a fly in the room, and drop his pencil multiple times while trying to fill in a worksheet, and I watched him literally fall out of his chair for no apparent reason — like he was sitting there trying really hard to focus on the teacher at the front of the room when he literally just... fell over. She yelled at him and told him to stop "fooling around." I thought if that's how she treats him when a parent is right there in the room, what's it like the rest of the time???

So that's how we ended up homeschooling. And homeschooling is the reason a dyslexic ADHD 4th grader who could barely read and couldn't spell his own name right half the time, turned into a 6th grader reading the Iliad for fun, who turned into a 7th grader working harder than he'd ever worked in this life to learn Ancient Greek, who eventually turned into a college sophomore with a 3.95 GPA in advanced courses. And that clumsy kid who couldn't even sit in a chair without falling over ended up with drawer full national and international medals and an athletic scholarship. 

If I seem overly, uhh, "passionate" on this topic, or overreactive, it's because I have held a sobbing child who was thought no one would ever love him because he couldn't sit still.

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2 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

See, I would think testing and EF would go hand and hand to an extent, because can't/don't people study up for the ASVAB (or whatever it's called)? I would consider EF a mental framework tbh, so for me it's hard to separate the two on the weed out part. You either can get your $ together or you cannot type of thing. Unless they can make them get their S together. I don't know how that works- my Dad was a Marine, but I was never in the military and I'm guessing things were a *lot* different when he was in. Not to mention they started drafting people a few years after he went in, so different times. 


Some kids need to study. The smartest students do not. DH didn’t. As people have said here, book smarts and EF can be wildly different. DH has worked with many walking encyclopedias/autodidacts.

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15 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I was thinking about this thread in light of the military. It's interesting that people say punitive doesn't work for EFDs. That's almost the entire structure of the military. Get your hair cut,  keep your room clean, study, show up on time,  shine your boots, etc. All of that is enforced via an entirely punitive system of consequences, recruits come from all walks of life with all different sorts of LDs and abilities, it's very sink or swim + high pressure with stakes of failure being pretty high...and yet all kinds of people manage to make it through training (both boot camp and technical schools). There are known elite jobs and tougher schools with higher attrition rates, but even then, a lot of the reasons are medical or stuff like that. I wonder what makes this work for the military effectively? (I'm not arguing parents should be drill sergeants,  just wondering about the effectiveness aspect).

And not just effectively, but effectively for ADHD. Imagine that. Structure, consequences. People were saying it was punishing the disability, but it's not. We still have free will, the ability to choose. I mean, unless you somehow think your dc is ONLY their diagnosis. 

There are definitely recognized delays that affect accountability. Social Thinking delays, for instance, affect what we will judge a person to be accountable for. There's the idea of a "social pass" and there are kids who (in general) do not lie, etc. There are these other issues. And we have a lot of kids being jumbled in here who are at a lot of different levels of social thinking and hence how we would hold them accountable or perceive their own ability to make a choice to do what is wrong.

My own dc has very little ability to overcome himself and do what is right anyway. He doesn't take perspective on rules to get the idea of God, sin, the law, etc. For him, compliance is pretty straightforward and we don't really have a lot of conversations of this was wrong, why did you do it. He just doesn't operate on that level. He operates on a more basic level like this is what is expected and these are my tools so I will try to do it. Very b&w, very straightforward.

Some kids have a lot more flex and understanding and ability within that. 

I really appreciate Heathermomster's point on the role of compliance here, even if it isn't *popular*, because it's a balance. It's not like my dd just WANTED to do everything she needed to do. It's not like it was all easy or joyful or obvious or instantly rewarding. She wanted to kind of plow her own way, even if it was inefficient or never going to get there. Sometimes I could work with that and eventually get there, and sometimes I was like no try again this other way, like really you're going to have to do it this other way. Sometimes it was flat compliance. 

She had a point where her writing was functionally illegible AND she couldn't type. There were no pretty outcomes at that point. I brought in high motivators and was really well some people would say witch-like about it. Just saying. Like my dh thought I was a horrible person. My dd now kisses my feet over it, but sometimes you have to be tough as nails to come to the other side on some things. And THAT is a lot of what Heather is talking about, where your relationship is instructive enough that you can mentor them and get in their heads and they're really listening. However you get there is your business, but it's very hard to do the HARD WORK of getting a person proficient in HARD THINGS if you don't have this mentoring relationship.

Teaching a dc to outline when they'd rather not because they don't have to because they can pass the test without making notes or outlines is hard. Teaching a dc to type an alternate keyboard when they're satisfied to peck is hard. Getting a dc to do things they don't think they can do is hard. And it all rolls with that relationship Heather is talking about. 

Fwiw, the harder the situation, the more the relationship requires both positive AND negative. Big withdrawals from the bank, big deposits, I guess you could say. I put more effort into positive with my 2nd dc, and I think Heathermomster is probably putting a lot of positive into that bank too (just from what I've read of her posts).

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26 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

It seems like they weed a lot of people out ahead of time though don't they with the testing? And then another set with bootcamp?

This seems like a time to bring in the armadillos. Just saying. :biggrin:

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2 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

It seems like they weed a lot of people out ahead of time though don't they with the testing? And then another set with bootcamp? 

I know some of the guys I went to high school with got all sort of various discharges within the first year. These were the slacker dudes in most cases, and would end up with admin, or some random medical discharge- not dishonorable- but they didn't keep them past 6 months either. And they always had an excuse of they were let out- maybe it was legit, but it just happened to be the same guys who didn't have it together in high school either and were skipping class to smoke weed. 

I was looking up attrition rates...for air force basic training, it's only 7 or 8 percent. The testing beforehand is aptitude (*very basic* academics and spatial reasoning type stuff) and medical/physical. I wasn't tested for LDs at any point, although I suppose if one really has trouble with standardized testing it would be a problem.

I'm just saying that I know there must be undiagnosed people with EFD in the military, and for the most part, it seems like the yelling/punitive model works on a broad range of people. 

In fact, a lot of people I know joined the military in order to get their stuff together. These were not dumb people, but had trouble with college or real life for whatever reason or just wanted more self discipline. And that started with a very punitive model applies broad brush on anyone who was there. The scaffolding, as it was, was yelling and physical discipline.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


...College ready for us includes EF skills and/or self-advocacy.

This seems very wise! My dd launched a year before I wanted her to, sigh. 

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