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lauraw4321

Letting your kid fail

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I have been thinking about this thread and I have a few thoughts.

1. First, 11 is very young. It seems old, but looking back on it. 11 is a child. Now is this time to try to avoid the proscratination/failure/perfectionism loop that results in anxiety for so many girls. Now is the time for real supports for the child to understand how their brain works and how best to succeed.

2. The reason so many of us with college age and older kids with LDs or other learning issues chimed in is because at some point in high school, we woke up in the middle of the night panicked with the realization that none of it was going to be fixed. It could only be accomodated and the overwhelmingness of that kept us awake. My ds2's junior of high school was a series of sleepless nights as I worried if he was ever going to write legibily (not yet) and if he could construct a paragraph on his own (yes- uses voice to text software almost exclusively now). He is now a sophomore in college- still needs accomodations. He will need them forever and that realization was heartbreaking in the middle of the night.

3. I have learned (with the help of so many wise ladies on this board) to think of parenting my LD kids as a team effort. Like a professional athlete, these kids need a team to perform at their best. Agent, manager, coach, PT, nutrionist, emotional support, etc. I am on the team because I am their mother and I should choose the role that they need me to play. For my ds2, I was hugely involved in his college search. He needed a school with a demonstrated commitment to helping kids with LDs succeed. When he went, the school provided a team to help. He is trying to do more of it himself this year (with varying levels of success) but I have transitioned into emotional support person. Win or lose, I support what he wants. I am working at transitioning my role on my dd2's team- when she leaves for college, I should just be a cheerleader. But she will have a team around her as a D1 athlete.

4. For my dd2, success at school was linked directly with her ability to advocate for her accomodations. She needed to be forthright and clear about what she needs to be successful. No one else is going to do that. But for her to advocate for herself, she needed to understand clearly how her brain works and her limitations. 

Also, a last random comment. I think the world is harsher to girls with LDs. They are expected to be more mature, more capable, more grown up than boys their age. NT girls at 16 are shockingly mature. NT boys are all over the map and more leeway is given.

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1 hour ago, seekinghim45 said:

 

YES.  I had a feeling you were coming from a background like mine ( though my husband isn't like that.  He is HYPER responsible..)  When you have been trying to manage everyone's stuff ( and I've had multiple people for multiple years), there comes to a point where you just do the essentials.  We are just done.  I am almost done with youngest.  Hanging on, trying to be responsible...  Easier as she is hardly ever here.  Anyway, we are not judging you guys.  Don't judge us.   Now back to work.  i have so much to do.

It is easier to reconcile not being "done" at a certain age when you have a child with serious medical &intellectual issues who will always need support.

It is also easier bc I (rightly or wrongly) was a caregiver as a child and teen to adults in my family. 

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1 hour ago, maize said:

 

Sounds like you had a parenting method that resulted in compliance in your child.

In general, kids with executive function difficulties don't respond well to punitive parenting styles. Thing is, to think through and act on "if I do this behavior I will experience this consequence" requires good executive function.

Here's a short description of what executive function is:

Executive function refers to brain functions that activate, organize, integrate and manage other functions. It enables individuals to account for short- and long-term consequences of their actions and to plan for those results. It also allows individuals to make real-time evaluations of their actions and make necessary adjustments if those actions are not achieving the desired result.

https://chadd.org/about-adhd/executive-function-skills/

 

I would go a step further and say that no one responds well to punitive punishments.  All consequences should be restorative in my opinion.  

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Having a non-NT kid in college and having had her not diagnosed until college means I have a lot of experience on both sides -- holding expectations during middle school that she SHOULD be able to break down assignments, time manage, finish and turn in assignments, write down new assignments, NOT LOSE YOUR SHOES, your sweater, your hat, your phone, your folder, etc.  And then in college offering the scaffolding help that I SHOULD have been offering all along rather than the tough love  (you knew it was due, why can't you get to school on time, no I'm not bringing you your instrument, etc.) None of that tough love worked because it can't help an extremely low working memory and brain chemistry that literally can't motivate itself to work unless they are constantly in the red zone.

All of those years of failing  and feeling so inadequate of course created anxiety and low self-esteem issues, which then impede her being able to do assignments in college. It's hard to start a paper when you are in the middle of a panic attack over your own inadequacies. 

So not only do I help with scaffolding, I am also a therapist, trying to undo years of damage. 

Then there is the slight problem that she doesn't feel thirst, cold, pain unless its severe.... So I remind her to drink water. Literally every day. I remind her to do her laundry. I pay for her Uber trips when she's tired.  I did research laundry service! Because when you have an adhd kid who lost her first debit card, had her credit card frozen, can't get into her mailbox to get her second debit card, needs quarters for the laundry but has to walk a mile to get to a place to GET quarters, and then when she finally goes to do laundry two of the machines are broken and the other two are full.... you feel a little guilty about how easy it is to do laundry in your own house and buy things when you have a car.  College is HARD, when you have to cook for yourself, buy groceries for yourself (a mile walk there and back) have no car, buses literally don't pick up anywhere near where you live, and you average walking 7 miles a day. Plus working a 20-25 hour a week job, plus classes.  Yeah, I'm fine with offering a lot of support. 

I couldn't imagine holding her back either, until she was ready, or sending her somewhere less stressful.  She's a 2e kid --gifted with adhd, who thrives on challenge. And if she goes farther because of support (she dreams of T14 law school rn) rather than scraping through college and having to change her life goals because scraping through was the best she could have done on her own... I am fine with that. Because what does the alternative prove in the long run? Who does that honestly help?

So that's just my experience of one kid.  I love the fact that I have a relative with three NT kids, all who have needed minimal EF supports over the years, that responded well and easily to a few punitive consequences, and who barely need to call their parents while they are off at college.  And the mom thinks she really knocked it out of the ballpark with her kids following the parenting handbook.  Look at how well they have turned out!  And that's the kind of judgment to which I think a lot of posters are reacting. Because it's out there everywhere, and it's internalized inside our kids too. 

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This, imo, is one of those threads that grows to be a wealth of information and experience.  Worthwhile discussion even if not directly about the op's exact situation.

(If the op wanted agreement she needed to mark this "jawm")

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14 hours ago, Corraleno said:

If you had any experience with non-neurotypical kids, you would understand that we are not attacking the OP, we are advocating for an 11 year old child with ADHD. The people who are "arguing with her" in this thread were having these same discussions on this board about our elementary-aged kids a decade ago when her daughter was still in diapers. We have BTDT and it makes us sad to see where this may be headed.

To be fair, she tried to help her dd11 and her dd11 refused the help.  I am not sure what else she should have done.  Beat or restrain the child?

She was expressing something I feel often too.  Our kids' ideas of what they need are different from ours.  And the truth is somewhere in between.

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48 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

I have been thinking about this thread and I have a few thoughts.

1. First, 11 is very young. It seems old, but looking back on it. 11 is a child. Now is this time to try to avoid the proscratination/failure/perfectionism loop that results in anxiety for so many girls. Now is the time for real supports for the child to understand how their brain works and how best to succeed.

2. The reason so many of us with college age and older kids with LDs or other learning issues chimed in is because at some point in high school, we woke up in the middle of the night panicked with the realization that none of it was going to be fixed. It could only be accomodated and the overwhelmingness of that kept us awake. My ds2's junior of high school was a series of sleepless nights as I worried if he was ever going to write legibily (not yet) and if he could construct a paragraph on his own (yes- uses voice to text software almost exclusively now). He is now a sophomore in college- still needs accomodations. He will need them forever and that realization was heartbreaking in the middle of the night.

3. I have learned (with the help of so many wise ladies on this board) to think of parenting my LD kids as a team effort. Like a professional athlete, these kids need a team to perform at their best. Agent, manager, coach, PT, nutrionist, emotional support, etc. I am on the team because I am their mother and I should choose the role that they need me to play. For my ds2, I was hugely involved in his college search. He needed a school with a demonstrated commitment to helping kids with LDs succeed. When he went, the school provided a team to help. He is trying to do more of it himself this year (with varying levels of success) but I have transitioned into emotional support person. Win or lose, I support what he wants. I am working at transitioning my role on my dd2's team- when she leaves for college, I should just be a cheerleader. But she will have a team around her as a D1 athlete.

4. For my dd2, success at school was linked directly with her ability to advocate for her accomodations. She needed to be forthright and clear about what she needs to be successful. No one else is going to do that. But for her to advocate for herself, she needed to understand clearly how her brain works and her limitations. 

Also, a last random comment. I think the world is harsher to girls with LDs. They are expected to be more mature, more capable, more grown up than boys their age. NT girls at 16 are shockingly mature. NT boys are all over the map and more leeway is given.


This is exactly the kind of support I think kids should get (with the caveat that I am more inclined to let my kids choose my role once they leave), particularly in middle/high school. That doesn’t mean not help. It means targeted help, learning your strengths, weaknesses, resources, etc. so that I can be out of a job. I was roundly criticized for saying that I think finding colleges that can/will meet these needs and learning to identify/articulate needs and advocate for them should be part of the work of secondary education (for those who need it).

Edited by Sneezyone

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23 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

I would go a step further and say that no one responds well to punitive punishments.  All consequences should be restorative in my opinion.  

Can you tell me more about restorative consequences? This is not a term I have heard before.

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3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


This is exactly the kind of support I think kids should get (with the caveat that I am more inclined to let my kids choose my role once they leave). I was roundly criticized for saying that I think finding schools that can/will meet these needs and learning to identify/articulate needs and advocate for them should be part of the work of secondary education (for those who need it).

I think that 11 is the perfect age to begin with understanding how your own brain works, how you best succeed, what you need to do your best. The most difficult thing for my kids to realize was that no matter how hard they worked, they couldn't work their way out of their LD. They could make things easier- but certain things were always and forever going to be harder for them than for other people. High schools are hit and miss with accomodations and kids need to be ready to advocate for themselves then. College is more of the same. ds2's college is perfect for him- but it would be a disaster for my dd2. 

Middle schoolers need scaffolding in lots of things- middle schoolers with LDs need more help than they want. It doesn't have to be a parent- but they still need it and parents should help them find it. Coaches, teachers, tutors, counselors- there are so many ways to get your kid the help they need and not be front and center.

 

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1 hour ago, Heathermomster said:

This thread is very odd to me.  When DS was at home, he only had a few responsibilities one of which was obeying his parents and teachers and the other was doing it with a happy heart.  Obviously, those goals were difficult at times, but they were always expected.

 

Wow!   Kids (and parents) are so different !   

It sounds like your son has had a lot of EF struggles, yet is very cooperative and compliant. Some of that might be how you raised him, and some might just be him.

 I have a friend with two kids both now adults, both with similar major LDs, but where one child was disposed to being cooperative and the other to being combative.  Same parents. Some of it is the child’s own personality, and temperament,  I think. 

1 hour ago, Heathermomster said:

My DS was never given an option to complete his school work.  When DS was in 6th grade, I made every effort to communicate with his school and teachers because everyone knew that he had multiple SLDs, and we were working together as a team.  The teachers held my DS to much higher standard that they held themselves.  It was a private school and DS wanted to be there because he grew up with those kids.  When a big assignment was assigned, the staff knew we needed the assignment early so that DS and I could break it down together.  If DS chose not to complete the assignment, I considered that to be disobeying, like whether he refused point blank to take out the trash after being told to do so.  Not completing homework has never been an option whether EF struggles were present or not because we gave him no excuse and he was expected to comply.

So my question is this.  The OP's DD completed the assignment and may likely be awarded an A.  How will the OP be punishing her child at home?  Because as far as I can tell, she told to DD to work on the project and the DD disobeyed her.  I am much more concerned about that lesson than I am about one associated with the grade. 

 

I don’t know whether or not OP told the child to do something the child didn’t do or not. 

I can say that punishment does not work at all well with my own child.   Its results are negative not positive.  

This is why I have been very interested in the Howard Glasser / Nurtured Heart approach that @gardenmom5 made me aware of. And before that Greene’s Collaborative Problem Solving approach.  Etc. 

 

I hope that @lauraw4321 ‘s daughter will get a B or C.  Not an F because it sounds like she did quite a lot and was interested and enthusiastic about her project, therefore it “should” imo be a pretty good grade.  But Not an A because my own experience was that getting A’s for last moment work after procrastinating reinforced procrastinating and last moment marathons.  Especially if more careful work done in a well spaced way got a lower grade.  And imo while it’s useful to be able to do work on an adrenaline fueled last moment basis for an emergency, it isn’t a good thing to do most of the time.  It Becomes a habitual pattern which is not healthy (literally in a physiological sense) in the long run, and becomes a hard habit to break. 

This is part of why I am particularly wondering about the discussion @lauraw4321 is planning to have with her daughter about planning things to allow for sleep (etc).  IMO doing assignments  so they don’t cause last minute stress, lack of sleep, etc, is far more important than whether it gets an A or a C.    IMO that discussion if it can be done well, so that it helps, and doesn’t feel like negativity and criticism to the daughter, could be a hugely important piece of teaching and scaffolding.  

I wonder if the procrastination monkey video could help OPs daughter.  

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15 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

I think that 11 is the perfect age to begin with understanding how your own brain works, how you best succeed, what you need to do your best. The most difficult thing for my kids to realize was that no matter how hard they worked, they couldn't work their way out of their LD. They could make things easier- but certain things were always and forever going to be harder for them than for other people. High schools are hit and miss with accomodations and kids need to be ready to advocate for themselves then. College is more of the same. ds2's college is perfect for him- but it would be a disaster for my dd2. 

Middle schoolers need scaffolding in lots of things- middle schoolers with LDs need more help than they want. It doesn't have to be a parent- but they still need it and parents should help them find it. Coaches, teachers, tutors, counselors- there are so many ways to get your kid the help they need and not be front and center.

 


I don’t disagree at all. While my child doesn’t have major EF issues, it is important to me to ensure that he understands how how his brain works and how to retrain it and/or overcome its natural tendencies. That scaffolding can and sometimes should look like both informing said child of things, modeling other options, AND letting him try his own approach. It may or may not be successful. DS can get by with his strategies with MS level content, but he wants straight As so  this still provides an opportunity for more discussion, exploring different strategies, and PRACTICING to see what really works. All the while we are emphasizing that failure is, in fact, a normal part of learning, that you don’t have to launch right away but when you do, we think you’re ready.  I think some of the comments on this thread were dismissive of the importance that some of us place on this practice, whether it’s in response to ASD traits or something else. To me, scaffolding is Just another form of teaching not doing. EF is another domain of readiness and preparedness that’s just as important as academics. We hope to teach both our kids (and one is responding well to this, my rigid kid is just starting) that they need to find/form that team and use it. This is part if what we’re modeling. Where to look and what to ask. While DH and I will be there when we can, the team has to be one they can form/use on their own because Dad and I  ARE GONNA DIE, lol. 

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1 hour ago, unsinkable said:

the other issue I have been mulling over is educational philosophy. And brick&mortar school vs. homeschool.

As a homeschooler, I taught to mastery. I didn't give "grades" so there was no "failing" or "failure," especially in middle school.

Also, "projects" were not really assigned by me...if by projects you mean: make a pyramid and write a paper or make a diorama and give a report on it. That is a craft plus a writing assignment. If my kids did a writing assignment, it wasn't done until it met the requirements of the assignments. And they could do any amount or type of crafts on their own. it wasn't school work, and it wasn't for a grade.

i haven't done a census of the thread but it seems like the pro 'letting your kid fail' contingent is mostly made up of B&M schoolers...or maybe just the ones posting the most?

I’ve wondered about that as well.  When my kids miss anything in terms of score, they must correct it on their own until they get the right answer, with me tutoring and repeating the concept or having some Socratic dialogue until we hit upon the deeper ideas they first didn’t quite connect with. Like, I write down the first grade given as a matter of my records, but there is no assignment left uncompleted and no problem left unsolved or not understood, even if we slow to a crawl or go back five lessons to firm up something they missed there. 
 

There is no failure, how can one fail in learning? They do have schedule and EF requirements each day and natural consequences when things aren’t done in a timely or organized manner, but I suppose the very structure of homeschool time, mom checks and discussions, and slowing down or missing other activities if things are going sideways is just the way it goes.  The kids are scaffolded but there isn’t really any way they *can* fail, long term, because it’s all just the process of learning and improving and absorbing and maturing.


This whole discussion is a bit foreign to me, and my only outside-educated kids are preschoolers now, so I don’t have a good basis of comparison.  But even with my middle schoolers becoming high schoolers and beyond it just seems really weird and difficult for me to understand what’s going on here - if an expectation or goal isn’t met or isn’t realistic for the child, don’t we love and want to help them gain understanding and feel successful while learning?  Even if that means helping with flash cards or a text reminder or some pacing on work?  These things will develop in time, but as a parent I see that ‘time’ varying by YEARS depending on the child I’m talking about!!?

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33 minutes ago, happi duck said:

This, imo, is one of those threads that grows to be a wealth of information and experience.  Worthwhile discussion even if not directly about the op's exact situation.

(If the op wanted agreement she needed to mark this "jawm")

 

I agree. Even though it’s wandered off from the original post , and sometimes got a little combative seeming, by and large, Mostly  it seems like it has gotten to be a wealth of helpful thoughts!!!

  There are a whole bunch of things in this thread that relate to things going on in my family.  I want to carefully reread the whole thing and make some notes.  I even want to read some parts to my Mom. 

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1dd has me reading "Transforming the difficult child" by Howard Glasser.  it doesn't specify the source for a child's challenges - but it's a child who does not respond to conventional methods.

one thing that can make a kid with EF issues "decline help" is they can be very defensive.  for a multitude of reasons, many of which can be completely invisible to a NT parent.  the books gives suggestions on how to get past those defenses.  until that happens, nothing good will happen.  and as kids - they lack the self-awareness for the social, emotional, neurological, and physical to be able to verbalize any of what they are feeling.   (I found yoga very helpful for developing the neurological and physical awareness.)

ASD kids can be very defensive too - I'm dealing with that.  I've been getting good info from a site created by, and run by - aspies.  they can speak about their experience with "traditional" therapies - from the aspie side. (and rarely have anything good to say. after a session, the therapist goes home.  the aspie lives with it 24/7.).  I've also seen research for a specialist in the UK who coined the term for a subgroup of aspies called "pathological demand avoidance". - I think it's all basically the same thing.  these are kids who are super defensive, and until that is dealt with, nothing much is going to happen. 

I'm dealing with that now.  trying to keep a highly defensive kid afloat.

 

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2 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

I would go a step further and say that no one responds well to punitive punishments.  All consequences should be restorative in my opinion.  

The assumption is that there is no restorative talk with discipline.  That might be true depending upon the parents and their worldview; however, that does not describe DH or me.  We absolutely use restorative talk. Now allow me to define our home’s punishment:  no movie night, no sleepover, and/or no trip to the local water park.  
 

My child doesn’t have any social delays.  It is true that the cortical thickness of the brain of an ADHD student has been measured to be thinner and thickens with age.  The prefrontal cortex develops more slowly with the ADHD individual and brain matures up to 30 yo.  ADHD students can be 3 years behind maturity wise and that was mentioned previously.  
 

I write the above to say that when my non spectrum 6th grader was in school, I was working in close contact with certain faulty.  If there was an issue with an assignment, EF or otherwise, I told the teacher, and I didn’t do that often because DS was accommodated.  DS worked with a volunteer staff member at least twice a week.  That staff member happens to be a good friend of mine and I would tell her if there was issue that she could address.  Anyways, I’m clarifying here.  My DS is an extreme extrovert who loved being a dude.  He would do just about anything to be with his friends and we harnessed that desire to motivate him.  Obviously, that is one way to do things because grades were not his motivation.

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1 hour ago, Heathermomster said:

DS works with a CBT and he calls the the method Achievement Motivation.

I need to go read about this! I’m in the all of the above camp. 

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49 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

the other issue I have been mulling over is educational philosophy. And brick&mortar school vs. homeschool.

As a homeschooler, I taught to mastery. I didn't give "grades" so there was no "failing" or "failure," especially in middle school.

Also, "projects" were not really assigned by me...if by projects you mean: make a pyramid and write a paper or make a diorama and give a report on it. That is a craft plus a writing assignment. If my kids did a writing assignment, it wasn't done until it met the requirements of the assignments. And they could do any amount or type of crafts on their own. it wasn't school work, and it wasn't for a grade.

i haven't done a census of the thread but it seems like the pro 'letting your kid fail' contingent is mostly made up of B&M schoolers...or maybe just the ones posting the most?

IME, while my kids were homeschooled, there wasn’t really such a thing a “failing” a project or assignment. That’s part of the provided beauty of homeschooling; we keep working on it to get the needed results. 

But once my kids were at B&M school, it became definitely possible for them to fail a project, assignment or entire class. There’s normally not any option of crafting the assignment to suit the child’s learning needs or whatever. In schools, usually, the kid has to do the assignment the same way as the other thirty kids in the class, unless they have documented LDs with accommodations. So. For me, (not anyone else, just me), one of my kids had to experience some fallout from decisions. Not that I sat mutely by while a catastrophe unfolded before my very eyes, but, in a couple of instances, I tried to help and was rebuffed for meddling. So I let it happen. Fortunately, it didn’t take a large amount of falls before kid saw the wisdom in some of my suggestions. 

I did also have a definite goal that I was not planning to provide much scaffolding once kids are in college. My ADD kid has adapted and mostly manages his own deal, although, as I said, I will help him know his car tags need renewing or whatever. But he’s in his second year now and I don’t scaffold any of his classwork or tell him to buy his books or make sure he gets groceries for his apartment. I stopped having anything to do with his hair a couple of years ago; it is on him to decide his hair needs work and to get it done. 

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1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I need to go read about this! I’m in the all of the above camp. 

I would not recommend that.  Look at more Social thinking resources for compliance.  

 

 

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54 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

I would go a step further and say that no one responds well to punitive punishments.  All consequences should be restorative in my opinion.  

 

I too would like to understand “restorative consequences” please!

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1 hour ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

Then there is the slight problem that she doesn't feel thirst, cold, pain unless its severe....

Total aside but have you looked at Kelly Mahler’s work on interoception? It can be improved and is life changing!!

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3 hours ago, unsinkable said:

the other issue I have been mulling over is educational philosophy. And brick&mortar school vs. homeschool.

As a homeschooler, I taught to mastery. I didn't give "grades" so there was no "failing" or "failure," especially in middle school.

Also, "projects" were not really assigned by me...if by projects you mean: make a pyramid and write a paper or make a diorama and give a report on it. That is a craft plus a writing assignment. If my kids did a writing assignment, it wasn't done until it met the requirements of the assignments. And they could do any amount or type of crafts on their own. it wasn't school work, and it wasn't for a grade.

i haven't done a census of the thread but it seems like the pro 'letting your kid fail' contingent is mostly made up of B&M schoolers...or maybe just the ones posting the most?

 

An advantage of homeschooling is being able to work to mastery level.

An advantage of B&M school is having to learn to cope with deadlines.  

I think learning to mastery is especially wonderful for something like mathematics where moving on without mastering prior level is likely to result in becoming lost.  I think B&M schools need to figure out how to incorporate more “to mastery” learning in such areas. 

(ETA: and homeschooling could sometimes benefit if there were a way to work in more hard deadlines and planning for big projects with a hard deadline for homeschool kids when younger (and possible still more receptive to parent guidance if that is ever true for a child).  It’s another timing thing that’s hard to get for some parents and kids.) 

As a parent with a child who has been in a variety of school and homeschooling situations, I can see both advantages and disadvantages to all.  And it depends a lot on the individual child and school “fit” to the child.  Frankly it can depend a lot on individual teacher for some kids too.  Whether that is a college prof, a parent, or a B&M teacher.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, unsinkable said:

the other issue I have been mulling over is educational philosophy. And brick&mortar school vs. homeschool.

As a homeschooler, I taught to mastery. I didn't give "grades" so there was no "failing" or "failure," especially in middle school.

Also, "projects" were not really assigned by me...if by projects you mean: make a pyramid and write a paper or make a diorama and give a report on it. That is a craft plus a writing assignment. If my kids did a writing assignment, it wasn't done until it met the requirements of the assignments. And they could do any amount or type of crafts on their own. it wasn't school work, and it wasn't for a grade.

i haven't done a census of the thread but it seems like the pro 'letting your kid fail' contingent is mostly made up of B&M schoolers...or maybe just the ones posting the most?


There probably are some differences when external performance/accountability to some degree or another is required or expected. My goal was always to prepare my kids for whatever. I homeschooled from K-7 with the idea of teaching content to mastery. But I also felt that they would have to live without me at some point.  I didn’t then, and I don’t know now, when that moment will come. My DHs mother died suddenly when he was barely 18 yo so this was important to him too.

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7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


There probably are some differences when external performance/accountability to some degree or another is required or expected. My goal was always to prepare my kids for whatever. I homeschooled from K-7 with the idea of teaching content to mastery. But I also felt that they would have to live without me at some point.  I didn’t then, and I don’t know now, when that moment will come. My DHs mother died suddenly when he was barely 18 yo so this was important to him too.

yeah, I've made no secret that both my parents died when I was a teenager and that it has impacted nearly every decision I have made as a mom.

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30 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’ve wondered about that as well.  When my kids miss anything in terms of score, they must correct it on their own until they get the right answer, with me tutoring and repeating the concept or having some Socratic dialogue until we hit upon the deeper ideas they first didn’t quite connect with. Like, I write down the first grade given as a matter of my records, but there is no assignment left uncompleted and no problem left unsolved or not understood, even if we slow to a crawl or go back five lessons to firm up something they missed there. 
 

There is no failure, how can one fail in learning?

 

That’s a major, major strong area for homeschooling.  

Though if a “difficult teen” digs in heels and refuses to cooperate, homeschooling can become quite futile! 

B&M school with grades isn’t IMO so much “failing “ regarding learning (in terms of subject matter ), but more failing in terms of activities more similar to adults paying electric bill on time or not. Or getting taxes in on time or not.    (At least from my perspective as parent of child who is capable of doing the work, but resists it or procrastinated it.) 

30 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

 

They do have schedule and EF requirements each day and natural consequences when things aren’t done in a timely or organized manner, but I suppose the very structure of homeschool time, mom checks and discussions, and slowing down or missing other activities if things are going sideways is just the way it goes.  The kids are scaffolded but there isn’t really any way they *can* fail, long term, because it’s all just the process of learning and improving and absorbing and maturing.


This whole discussion is a bit foreign to me, and my only outside-educated kids are preschoolers now, so I don’t have a good basis of comparison.  But even with my middle schoolers becoming high schoolers and beyond it just seems really weird and difficult for me to understand what’s going on here - if an expectation or goal isn’t met or isn’t realistic for the child, don’t we love and want to help them gain understanding and feel successful while learning?  Even if that means helping with flash cards or a text reminder or some pacing on work?  These things will develop in time, but as a parent I see that ‘time’ varying by YEARS depending on the child I’m talking about!!?

 

There’s all sorts of help.  Going back to OP situation, it seems like @lauraw4321 DID want to help in various ways like that — but needed to step back and let her daughter handle the project on her own partly because that’s what the daughter wanted and partly because the Dad thought that was needed. 

Maybe a different analogy would be to learning bike riding.  We can start with training wheels, our hands supporting balance, or other methods like wheelers toddler bikes, but at some point if the child is going to be able to do it, the training wheels and hands come off. Some kids make that transition with no falls. Some do have falls.  One hopes (Most of us who love our kids, I assume) that any falls will be minor, and not result in quadraplegia. 

I think the days of throwing kids in deep end of pool to teach them to swim are over.  Or mostly are.  (I hope.) But even with human or flotation device supports (like “scaffolding” educationally) there are points when a transition to doing it without the support has to happen if the child is to learn to swim. 

Is 6th grade a right time? I don’t think that can arbitrarily be answered because each child is so different.

But where, as with @lauraw4321‘s daughter as best I understand,  the child herself wanted to do it herself, yes, I think it is right for the parent to step back and let the kid do it.  

And I think yes, that is hard I think, much like watching a child ride away all by herself, perhaps a bit tottery, on two wheeler for first time. 

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38 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Total aside but have you looked at Kelly Mahler’s work on interoception? It can be improved and is life changing!!

I will have to!  SO much to research! But you have great ideas and I love mining your posts for new directions:)

 

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14 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

No - everyone does "not" scaffold their child, in anyway shape or form. even for a spec needs kid who needs the support.  some do next to nothing, even for kids who would drown without it.

 

Everyone here. That is what everyone here is talking about, if you read what they are actually describing in the thread.  

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*Most parents would say, "well, there is a hard lesson learned" but for my kid, that may not be true.  He may miss the deadline next time.*

 

This is really just a jumping off point, not really about your son's situation:

I think this is actually part of why the OP is thinking now might be a good time to begin giving her daughter a little room to do poorly - because there is still a lot of time in grade 6 to learn those lessons, maybe more than once.

A child in university, clearly it's harder.  And  also, it's the case that sometime they won't, they won't overcome that problem or organisational deficit.  To me though, it really is a question to what degree that is separate from what some people are calling the 'content" element of a university degree. Everyone knows I think that in year one of a degree many kids need some advice on how to switch to a higher functioning mode.  But how long in that first degree is it appropriate to help?  What about a masters degree?  

I had a hard time with organisation as a student, and it wasn't the content, that never gave me any trouble.  It was always the organisational stuff.  But I failed a class I needed for the degree I wanted, badly.  In fact I failed it twice and never did get that credit.  It meant that I didn't get quite the sort of degree I wanted and it affected what I could do afterwards, graduate work in my subject wasn't a possibility and even another sort of graduate degree might not have been possible.  

I found other things to do, in the end, as people do.  And I realised pretty quickly once I was out of that environment that it wasn't just a problem external to the subject - if I wanted to have that degree, go on, I needed to be able to organise myself and my work adequately, because that is what is required to do the work.  If someone had helped me through my BA, I would still have been lacking what was required for the MA and it would have begun to affect my ability to deal with the content sooner rather than later.

Which is why I wonder, when people say they will continue to scaffold for as long as necessary, where they are really thinking they will draw the line?  

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22 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Everyone here. That is what everyone here is talking about, if you read what they are actually describing in the thread.  

it didn't say "every one here".  It said "everyone does that".  I did not see an implication in the content of the post it was only talking about those on this thread, or those on this board.

IME - making unequivocal "everyone" statements, doesn't work out too well.

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2 hours ago, MysteryJen said:

I think that 11 is the perfect age to begin with understanding how your own brain works, how you best succeed, what you need to do your best. The most difficult thing for my kids to realize was that no matter how hard they worked, they couldn't work their way out of their LD. They could make things easier- but certain things were always and forever going to be harder for them than for other people. High schools are hit and miss with accomodations and kids need to be ready to advocate for themselves then. College is more of the same. ds2's college is perfect for him- but it would be a disaster for my dd2. 

Middle schoolers need scaffolding in lots of things- middle schoolers with LDs need more help than they want. It doesn't have to be a parent- but they still need it and parents should help them find it. Coaches, teachers, tutors, counselors- there are so many ways to get your kid the help they need and not be front and center.

 

 

But how do they come to this realisation if they don't get to try things their own way?

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37 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

<snip>

I found other things to do, in the end, as people do.  And I realised pretty quickly once I was out of that environment that it wasn't just a problem external to the subject - if I wanted to have that degree, go on, I needed to be able to organise myself and my work adequately, because that is what is required to do the work.  If someone had helped me through my BA, I would still have been lacking what was required for the MA and it would have begun to affect my ability to deal with the content sooner rather than later.

Which is why I wonder, when people say they will continue to scaffold for as long as necessary, where they are really thinking they will draw the line?  

Your final line is a good question.

But, to the bolded: I think it depends on how the help is given. If it's given in a way that adds to the student's ability to do it on their own next time, then by the time grad school comes around, the problem may be solved. (Rather than just doing something for the student without their involvement at all.)  I think people have given examples of this in this thread, such as my example of helping a kid write certain sorts of letters, then keeping those letters accessible as examples for the next time around.  It's not some huge fabulous idea on my part, just a way of helping the student become self-sufficient in the future. 

Of course at some point when too much help is needed, and it's not helping the student get anywhere, things will probably need to change. 

But getting help at a certain level doesn't mean that help is always going to be needed, if the student is teachable and the things being taught are attainable. 

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7 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

it didn't say "every one here".  It said "everyone does that".  I did not see an implication in the content of the post it was only talking about those on this thread, or those on this board.

IME - making unequivocal "everyone" statements, doesn't work out too well.

 

Well, yes, that is why I clarified.  Everyone here is talking about this yet for some reason some people are getting jumped on for cruelly leaving their kids to wallow with no help.

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8 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

But how do they come to this realisation if they don't get to try things their own way?

Sitting in a class with NT people- and doing an in class reading assignment. 

Or an in-class essay

or a multiple choice test.

or asking for an oral test at the DMV

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

You seem to imply that scaffolding and accomodations mean that kids with LDs can avoid or prevent failure. It means showing the kids a path toward success and a way of reflecting their true abilities- a way out of the constant sense of failure and inadequacy. When people start to see success, they tend to want it to continue.

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9 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

Sitting in a class with NT people- and doing an in class reading assignment. 

Or an in-class essay

or a multiple choice test.

or asking for an oral test at the DMV

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

You seem to imply that scaffolding and accomodations mean that kids with LDs can avoid or prevent failure. It means showing the kids a path toward success and a way of reflecting their true abilities- a way out of the constant sense of failure and inadequacy. When people start to see success, they tend to want it to continue.


To the bolded, that is exactly what some have described/said/implied. Taking on tasks, not teaching or referring or facilitating, but literally doing things to prevent failure. It’s not even to prevent academic failure per se but unpleasant grooming and dietary consequences too...and not for pubescent people but the 18-24yos. 

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20 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

Sitting in a class with NT people- and doing an in class reading assignment. 

Or an in-class essay

or a multiple choice test.

or asking for an oral test at the DMV

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

You seem to imply that scaffolding and accomodations mean that kids with LDs can avoid or prevent failure. It means showing the kids a path toward success and a way of reflecting their true abilities- a way out of the constant sense of failure and inadequacy. When people start to see success, they tend to want it to continue.

 

I don't see how this makes sense in light of what the OP was about, and criticised for.  

The OP wanted to give her daughter strategies which the daughter didn't think she needed or wanted.  That's a misapprehension on her part, not one that can be remedied by stepping in and making her do it the "right" way.  If that is even possible with a child of that age - I'd have simply refused, in fact I did.  Clearly she isn't suffering from a sense of inadequacy or failure.  

And how is letting your kid fail at a multiple choice test somehow better than letting them make a bad choice about a grade six project?

I

 

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41 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

But how do they come to this realisation if they don't get to try things their own way?

I think there is a natural progression toward self sufficiency, but some kids seem to need much more explicit instructions along the way and more tome to reach each stage, and then there is a point where you realize your child may NEVER make it all the way, like when there are developmental/cognitive/physical/psychological disabilities at play.  
 

At least in what I am seeing in my special needs mom group here, there are some things that transition over to county programs and social services away from mom and dad, and some kids who need some levels of ongoing group housing or assistance while having other areas of their lives be independent but supervised.

Short of that, I do think most parents and their children find their own rhythm and progress toward adulthood that works for them.  But just because my own kid can complete a paper with no assistance at 11 and someone’s else kid struggles with it at 20 doesn’t mean the 20 year old needs to be shoved away from all supports or they’ll never get there.  That’s a leap too far IMO.  Late doesn’t mean never. Slow doesn’t mean never.  Detailed steps or modifications don’t mean we aren’t also functioning and growing and gaining independence, sometimes it just needs more time.

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

This is part of why I am particularly wondering about the discussion @lauraw4321 is planning to have with her daughter about planning things to allow for sleep (etc).  IMO doing assignments  so they don’t cause last minute stress, lack of sleep, etc, is far more important than whether it gets an A or a C.    IMO that discussion if it can be done well, so that it helps, and doesn’t feel like negativity and criticism to the daughter, could be a hugely important piece of teaching and scaffolding.  

I wonder if the procrastination monkey video could help OPs daughter.  

So, a few follow ups. I did have the conversation about procrastination / sleep and it was so enlightening that I'm so so so so glad I kept my mouth shut for once. So, first of all, she had already prepared her entire script in PPT in Spanish before she started filming. I don't know if the teacher scaffolded this, but I was really pleased with that. I talked to her about losing sleep, and she admitted that it would have been better to finish earlier, but that the only way that would have worked was on the weekend, and she didn't remember it on the weekend. I told her that if I were in her shoes, I probably would have chosen something simpler that didn't need to "prove" for 2 hours. She had an absolutely brilliant response. First, she said that she wanted something that matched the Dia de los Muertos theme of the class. Second, she said she got more points for having more complicated ingredients to translate. And third, she said that it didn't really matter what it tasted like because she just had to do the video, not actually bring in the food. It seemed to me these were all very wise choices in retrospect. 

With respect to putting the videos together into iMovie, frankly, she probably could have done it on the bus ride. I don't love that because she gets motion sick, but I was floored at how quickly she was able to do that. Clearly I'm an old fart who is slow at technology.

I keep checking for a grade, or trying to find the grading rubric, and I haven't been able to find it. She has had trouble turning it in because of technology, and I've been reminding her to follow up on that daily, but I usually can still find the assignment on my end. So it's weird that I can't.

We usually do our planning / calendaring discussions on Sundays, but I'm realizing that with some of these more complicated projects, we need to do them on Saturday mornings so that we have a chance to work on the weekend if needed.

Long story short, in this instance, I learned far more than she did, likely. I hope she gets an A (assuming what she's telling me about the grading rubric is true). I feel like my parenting wins are so few and far between, and I so often over-talk and over-lecture instead of just taking a step back and seeing where it leads me. I told her I was so proud of her. She showed me the video fully edited and it was absolutely adorable. She had some scenes of time-lapse, and she added sound over them, and was just generally brilliant. She got her middle sister to help, and even the 5 year old's hand waiving an American flag (because..why not?) appeared in the background and made us all laugh. 

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It sounds like she basically managed it pretty well!

The only think I might think about putting tech stuff together on the bus is that it leaves no room for a technology failure, as we all know.  It's all good until it's bad.  Of course many people ignore this as adults but it isn't bad to be aware of it. (I always remember a friend of mine in university who had a printer failure and had a reduced mark on a paper for lateness - the only thing he was graded on all semester for a masters level class. So a big deal.)

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48 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Well, yes, that is why I clarified.  Everyone here is talking about this yet for some reason some people are getting jumped on for cruelly leaving their kids to wallow with no help.

you (and a couple others) are the only ones using the term "cruel".  any of us objecting consider it "naïve".

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5 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

 

You have a lot to say about having a kid with EF issues, but does your spouse have severe EF issues? It is an entirely different ballgame. DH has always been a good provider and has never lost his job. I have to tell myself things like that when I hear him mention that he's supposed to be in for an 8:00 meeting, and it's 7:30 and he's just stepping into the shower, and he has a 30 minute commute. Or mention a required training that he's six months behind on. Or that his supervisor wants him to take on certain administrative tasks that I know he will struggle with. These are daily occurrences in my house. When we were first married, I tried to take on scaffolding him and managing my own life (law school at the time).  Over time he began to (unconsciously, I think) rely on me for some of those things. 

After couple's therapy (more than once), we reached an agreement that I would not consider it my job to help with those tasks. It was causing me inordinate stress and hurting our marriage. So, I had to draw some lines, and say the serenity prayer. So, if I know that his failure to do a task will directly and negatively impact one of the kids (i.e. not get picked up from somewhere, have their health insurance cancelled), I make sure those things get handled. Everything else? It's on him. Even if it makes things more difficult for him. The line gets fuzzy when it's something like... he lost receipts for reimbursement for a work trip to the tune of $600. In that case, I called and got receipts sent to me, sent them to him, and then reminded him weekly until I saw that reimbursement come back in. It took about 6 months. 

So when I see what seems like a pretty problematic work issue (being late), I have to self-talk like this "It's not my job to keep his job. The worst thing that could happen is he'll get fired. He's never gotten fired. And even if he does get fired, I can support us." It's my version of the serenity prayer. Otherwise, I wouldn't still be married.

If he asks me to help him - like "do you mind setting up an extra alarm on your phone and making sure I'm up by X time?" then I absolutely do. But even though I remember that he has an early meeting when he doesn't, I don't consider it my job to remind him. Frankly, we're both happier that way.

I hope it goes without saying that I love him and I love my children. But, in case it wasn't obvious, I do. 

 

I do get it. I had 22 years experience dealing with a spouse with severe ADHD and EF issues, compounded by mental illness, and 4 more (so far) dealing with an ex-spouse (his choice, not mine) to whom I still provide a lot of support, even though his actions no longer affect me personally or financially. 

I absolutely understand how draining it is — dealing with both a husband and child with ADHD is like having 2/3 of your brain-space occupied full time by squatters who don't pay rent. It's super frustrating and often exhausting. Reading your post (above), I totally get what you're talking about, and it makes sense. I apologize if my question came across as snarky or flippant, but without the above context, the short version (only helping if it affects you personally or financially) was genuinely shocking to me. I'm still providing EF support and even financial help to the person who accused me of trying to kill him by "scrambling his brains" with invisible brain waves. 

If you genuinely feel like you will not have the band-width to provide some level of EF support to your daughter if she continues to need it beyond 18, then I would urge you to start thinking about a Plan B that is not sink or swim, despite what your not-entirely-functional ADHD husband thinks. Because every single parent of a college student with EF deficits on this thread is telling you that your DD is very likely to need some level of support in college, especially in the beginning. If you feel like, for the sake of your own sanity, you can't be the one providing that, then your options are: (1) refuse to let her start college until she can manage it entirely on her own (which may be never); (2) limit her choices to colleges that offer significant EF supports (and you will need to ask very detailed questions about exactly what they will and won't do, because a lot of disability offices really do not understand EF issues); or (3) hire a private EF coach. Good EF coaches are like unicorns and can be super expensive if you can even find one, and colleges that are known for catering to kids with LDs and EF issues are not always the most rigorous and may not have all the programs or majors the student is interested in. If it's in the budget, you might want to start looking for an EF coach who can work with her now (or at the very least in HS), since that would relieve you of some of the burden (and possibly lessen the pushback from your DD), and she would have a good working relationship with that person before she starts college.

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I'm new here and my kids are still small, so I just wanted to say that this has been a really useful discussion for me. 

I dealt with a lot of my own executive dysfunctions as a child and young person -- heck, I still deal with it. It was far, far milder than what some of you are describing, but it was enough so that I lost all my gloves and lunchboxes and transit passes, didn't turn in assignments or study for tests, and generally missed out on administrative information. As a child I firmly believed that I was missing meetings at which everyone else was given key information. (Spoiler: I wasn't missing meetings. I was just lost in a dream world.) The academics were never a problem, but everything else!

I wasn't given much scaffolding by my parents. They simply didn't think that way. And I intend to do far more for my own kids. It's lovely to read about what everyone here does.

At the same time. This thread has made me nostalgic for what my parents DID give me -- a sense of great freedom and confidence in my own ability to improvise. I have fond memories of walking for miles to high school (because I had lost my transit pass and spent all my money); staying up all night to do a year's worth of math homework, with only the radio for company; failing, here and there, and making friends with the other "screw up" kids.

I know that you're all talking about more serious EF than I dealt with. But there IS something to be said with letting kids explore their own abilities, in a safe space. There IS something to be said for failing, within reason, now and then.

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18 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I don't see how this makes sense in light of what the OP was about, and criticised for.  

The OP wanted to give her daughter strategies which the daughter didn't think she needed or wanted.  That's a misapprehension on her part, not one that can be remedied by stepping in and making her do it the "right" way.  If that is even possible with a child of that age - I'd have simply refused, in fact I did.  Clearly she isn't suffering from a sense of inadequacy or failure.  

And how is letting your kid fail at a multiple choice test somehow better than letting them make a bad choice about a grade six project?

I

 

I do not make sure my kids do things the right way. I do not share their LDs and my job is to help them advocate for the things they need. If they think they don't need anything, I might make a suggestion, but they make the final decision. 

The OP got some advice about how 11 yo with ADHD might need help. This is a long rambling thread and there was good advice in it. It may not work for the OP or for you- but maybe it helped someone else.

You asked how my kids knew that they had to work harder and longer than other people. I gave you those examples. I never said I just let them fail. Struggle can be useful, futile struggle helps no one.

It does get tiring explaining to people that LDs are lifelong. That supports might be needed well into adulthood. And you might not know (know in your heart, not just your head) that when kids are younger. 

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5 hours ago, maize said:

You say you understand executive function but you offer a parenting strategy that depends on executive function to be successful.

It worked for your child. This does not mean it will work for every child or even most children with executive function difficulties.

Or even work for that particular child once he's in college.

 

3 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

My DS is an extreme extrovert who loved being a dude.  He would do just about anything to be with his friends and we harnessed that desire to motivate him.  Obviously, that is one way to do things because grades were not his motivation.

And when you can no longer "punish" a 19 or 20 year old college student for not finishing his work by preventing him from hanging out with friends, what then?

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2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

I will have to!  SO much to research! But you have great ideas and I love mining your posts for new directions:)

 

Buzz me if you need anything. Seriously. It's a totally important topic. And if she's over 18 there's a new private FB group for adults that Kelly is moderating. 

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1 hour ago, MysteryJen said:

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

Yeah, like today I'm having to tell dd we don't think she can do a particular program, even if she gets in. It really bites and messes with them and sucks. 

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52 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

Sitting in a class with NT people- and doing an in class reading assignment. 

Or an in-class essay

or a multiple choice test.

or asking for an oral test at the DMV

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

You seem to imply that scaffolding and accomodations mean that kids with LDs can avoid or prevent failure. It means showing the kids a path toward success and a way of reflecting their true abilities- a way out of the constant sense of failure and inadequacy. When people start to see success, they tend to want it to continue.

I am not sure what people are thinking scaffolding and supports are doing for certain kids.

In some cases, the supports only do enough to help pull a kids up from failing...so failing (F) to a D.

Or failing with a 25%-40% on a test, to still failing with a low 60%, which along with other work, is enough to get an overall passing grade, or maybe a bit higher depending on the weight of assignments.

And sometimes, kids get tired, as kids do...But when a kid who is hanging on by his fingernails doesn't study or "phones it in" the consequences are much worse than they are with a kid who has an A or B average.

Or take the teacher who has study packets of 50 multiple choice and short answer questions...And he usually assigns it for homework, and gives the class a few days to do it at home, open book. And then one day, he gives one for in class...And the whole class turns it in, complete, at the end of class...except the kid with LDs bc there is NO WAY he can do it in that time frame. And it becomes a THING bc the kid is so embarrassed bc the teacher keeps saying "but it was open book! What were you doing all this time?" So there is ANOTHER bad/ failing grade, in something the kid usually does really well on.

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13 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I'm new here and my kids are still small, so I just wanted to say that this has been a really useful discussion for me. 

....

I know that you're all talking about more serious EF than I dealt with. But there IS something to be said with letting kids explore their own abilities, in a safe space. There IS something to be said for failing, within reason, now and then.

Many (most?) of the parents posting in this thread about our college students have been on this board, discussing these issues, since our kids were elementary-age. Believe me, all of our kids have had enormous freedom to explore their abilities, and they have had plenty of opportunities to fail — far more than most NT kids will ever have to deal with. Appropriate accommodations for LDs do not deprive children of freedom to explore or learn from failure. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

 

Or take the teacher who has study packets of 50 multiple choice and short answer questions...And he usually assigns it for homework, and gives the class a few days to do it at home, open book. And then one day, he gives one for in class...And the whole class turns it in, complete, at the end of class...except the kid with LDs bc there is NO WAY he can do it in that time frame. And it becomes a THING bc the kid is so embarrassed bc the teacher keeps saying "but it was open book! What were you doing all this time?" So there is ANOTHER bad/ failing grade, in something the kid usually does really well on.

This.

This is why my dd2 has a reputation in certain classes for being "difficult." She insists on her accomodations on every assignment. And teachers who object- "you have an A, one bad grade won't hurt you."- get reported to her counselor. And I get an earful about them when she gets home.

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11 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Many (most?) of the parents posting in this thread about our college students have been on this board, discussing these issues, since our kids were elementary-age. Believe me, all of our kids have had enormous freedom to explore their abilities, and they have had plenty of opportunities to fail — far more than most NT kids will ever have to deal with. Appropriate accommodations for LDs do not deprive children of freedom to explore or learn from failure. 

 

 

Bingo.

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12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Many (most?) of the parents posting in this thread about our college students have been on this board, discussing these issues, since our kids were elementary-age. Believe me, all of our kids have had enormous freedom to explore their abilities, and they have had plenty of opportunities to fail — far more than most NT kids will ever have to deal with. Appropriate accommodations for LDs do not deprive children of freedom to explore or learn from failure. 

 

 

I hear you. I guess it's hard for me to understand why it would matter if a 6th grader messes up one assignment. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or maybe people are responding to something I can't see yet. But it sounded to me like leaving the kid free to flounder would make sense in that case. 

 

I really do mean the question, I'm not being snarky. 

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3 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

This.

This is why my dd2 has a reputation in certain classes for being "difficult." She insists on her accomodations on every assignment. And teachers who object- "you have an A, one bad grade won't hurt you."- get reported to her counselor. And I get an earful about them when she gets home.

And this is a perfect illustration of why those who try to reframe the issue as "Well, I intend to teach my kid to advocate for him/herself instead of doing everything for them" is setting up an entirely false dichotomy. We have all taught our kids to advocate for themselves and avail themselves of all available resources! The issue is that sometimes the resources they need are not available, and that's when a parent sometimes steps in. We are not out in front of these kids clearing their paths and solving their problems for them. We are providing the support they need, that they ask for, when they have done all the advocating possible and they simply cannot get what they need any other way.

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