Letting your kid fail

[gardenmom5]

1dd has me reading "Transforming the difficult child" by Howard Glasser.  it doesn't specify the source for a child's challenges - but it's a child who does not respond to conventional methods.

one thing that can make a kid with EF issues "decline help" is they can be very defensive.  for a multitude of reasons, many of which can be completely invisible to a NT parent.  the books gives suggestions on how to get past those defenses.  until that happens, nothing good will happen.  and as kids - they lack the self-awareness for the social, emotional, neurological, and physical to be able to verbalize any of what they are feeling.   (I found yoga very helpful for developing the neurological and physical awareness.)

ASD kids can be very defensive too - I'm dealing with that.  I've been getting good info from a site created by, and run by - aspies.  they can speak about their experience with "traditional" therapies - from the aspie side. (and rarely have anything good to say. after a session, the therapist goes home.  the aspie lives with it 24/7.).  I've also seen research for a specialist in the UK who coined the term for a subgroup of aspies called "pathological demand avoidance". - I think it's all basically the same thing.  these are kids who are super defensive, and until that is dealt with, nothing much is going to happen. 

I'm dealing with that now.  trying to keep a highly defensive kid afloat.

 

[Heathermomster]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

I would go a step further and say that no one responds well to punitive punishments.  All consequences should be restorative in my opinion.  

The assumption is that there is no restorative talk with discipline.  That might be true depending upon the parents and their worldview; however, that does not describe DH or me.  We absolutely use restorative talk. Now allow me to define our home’s punishment:  no movie night, no sleepover, and/or no trip to the local water park.  
 

My child doesn’t have any social delays.  It is true that the cortical thickness of the brain of an ADHD student has been measured to be thinner and thickens with age.  The prefrontal cortex develops more slowly with the ADHD individual and brain matures up to 30 yo.  ADHD students can be 3 years behind maturity wise and that was mentioned previously.  
 

I write the above to say that when my non spectrum 6th grader was in school, I was working in close contact with certain faulty.  If there was an issue with an assignment, EF or otherwise, I told the teacher, and I didn’t do that often because DS was accommodated.  DS worked with a volunteer staff member at least twice a week.  That staff member happens to be a good friend of mine and I would tell her if there was issue that she could address.  Anyways, I’m clarifying here.  My DS is an extreme extrovert who loved being a dude.  He would do just about anything to be with his friends and we harnessed that desire to motivate him.  Obviously, that is one way to do things because grades were not his motivation.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Heathermomster said:

DS works with a CBT and he calls the the method Achievement Motivation.

I need to go read about this! I’m in the all of the above camp. 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

the other issue I have been mulling over is educational philosophy. And brick&mortar school vs. homeschool.

As a homeschooler, I taught to mastery. I didn't give "grades" so there was no "failing" or "failure," especially in middle school.

Also, "projects" were not really assigned by me...if by projects you mean: make a pyramid and write a paper or make a diorama and give a report on it. That is a craft plus a writing assignment. If my kids did a writing assignment, it wasn't done until it met the requirements of the assignments. And they could do any amount or type of crafts on their own. it wasn't school work, and it wasn't for a grade.

i haven't done a census of the thread but it seems like the pro 'letting your kid fail' contingent is mostly made up of B&M schoolers...or maybe just the ones posting the most?

IME, while my kids were homeschooled, there wasn’t really such a thing a “failing” a project or assignment. That’s part of the provided beauty of homeschooling; we keep working on it to get the needed results. 

But once my kids were at B&M school, it became definitely possible for them to fail a project, assignment or entire class. There’s normally not any option of crafting the assignment to suit the child’s learning needs or whatever. In schools, usually, the kid has to do the assignment the same way as the other thirty kids in the class, unless they have documented LDs with accommodations. So. For me, (not anyone else, just me), one of my kids had to experience some fallout from decisions. Not that I sat mutely by while a catastrophe unfolded before my very eyes, but, in a couple of instances, I tried to help and was rebuffed for meddling. So I let it happen. Fortunately, it didn’t take a large amount of falls before kid saw the wisdom in some of my suggestions. 

I did also have a definite goal that I was not planning to provide much scaffolding once kids are in college. My ADD kid has adapted and mostly manages his own deal, although, as I said, I will help him know his car tags need renewing or whatever. But he’s in his second year now and I don’t scaffold any of his classwork or tell him to buy his books or make sure he gets groceries for his apartment. I stopped having anything to do with his hair a couple of years ago; it is on him to decide his hair needs work and to get it done. 

[Heathermomster]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I need to go read about this! I’m in the all of the above camp. 

I would not recommend that.  Look at more Social thinking resources for compliance.  

 

 

[Pen]

54 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

I would go a step further and say that no one responds well to punitive punishments.  All consequences should be restorative in my opinion.  

 

I too would like to understand “restorative consequences” please!

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

Then there is the slight problem that she doesn't feel thirst, cold, pain unless its severe....

Total aside but have you looked at Kelly Mahler’s work on interoception? It can be improved and is life changing!!

[Pen]

3 hours ago, unsinkable said:

the other issue I have been mulling over is educational philosophy. And brick&mortar school vs. homeschool.

As a homeschooler, I taught to mastery. I didn't give "grades" so there was no "failing" or "failure," especially in middle school.

Also, "projects" were not really assigned by me...if by projects you mean: make a pyramid and write a paper or make a diorama and give a report on it. That is a craft plus a writing assignment. If my kids did a writing assignment, it wasn't done until it met the requirements of the assignments. And they could do any amount or type of crafts on their own. it wasn't school work, and it wasn't for a grade.

i haven't done a census of the thread but it seems like the pro 'letting your kid fail' contingent is mostly made up of B&M schoolers...or maybe just the ones posting the most?

 

An advantage of homeschooling is being able to work to mastery level.

An advantage of B&M school is having to learn to cope with deadlines.  

I think learning to mastery is especially wonderful for something like mathematics where moving on without mastering prior level is likely to result in becoming lost.  I think B&M schools need to figure out how to incorporate more “to mastery” learning in such areas. 

(ETA: and homeschooling could sometimes benefit if there were a way to work in more hard deadlines and planning for big projects with a hard deadline for homeschool kids when younger (and possible still more receptive to parent guidance if that is ever true for a child).  It’s another timing thing that’s hard to get for some parents and kids.) 

As a parent with a child who has been in a variety of school and homeschooling situations, I can see both advantages and disadvantages to all.  And it depends a lot on the individual child and school “fit” to the child.  Frankly it can depend a lot on individual teacher for some kids too.  Whether that is a college prof, a parent, or a B&M teacher.  

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Pen

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, unsinkable said:

the other issue I have been mulling over is educational philosophy. And brick&mortar school vs. homeschool.

As a homeschooler, I taught to mastery. I didn't give "grades" so there was no "failing" or "failure," especially in middle school.

Also, "projects" were not really assigned by me...if by projects you mean: make a pyramid and write a paper or make a diorama and give a report on it. That is a craft plus a writing assignment. If my kids did a writing assignment, it wasn't done until it met the requirements of the assignments. And they could do any amount or type of crafts on their own. it wasn't school work, and it wasn't for a grade.

i haven't done a census of the thread but it seems like the pro 'letting your kid fail' contingent is mostly made up of B&M schoolers...or maybe just the ones posting the most?

There probably are some differences when external performance/accountability to some degree or another is required or expected. My goal was always to prepare my kids for whatever. I homeschooled from K-7 with the idea of teaching content to mastery. But I also felt that they would have to live without me at some point.  I didn’t then, and I don’t know now, when that moment will come. My DHs mother died suddenly when he was barely 18 yo so this was important to him too.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Sneezyone

[unsinkable]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There probably are some differences when external performance/accountability to some degree or another is required or expected. My goal was always to prepare my kids for whatever. I homeschooled from K-7 with the idea of teaching content to mastery. But I also felt that they would have to live without me at some point.  I didn’t then, and I don’t know now, when that moment will come. My DHs mother died suddenly when he was barely 18 yo so this was important to him too.

yeah, I've made no secret that both my parents died when I was a teenager and that it has impacted nearly every decision I have made as a mom.

[Pen]

30 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’ve wondered about that as well.  When my kids miss anything in terms of score, they must correct it on their own until they get the right answer, with me tutoring and repeating the concept or having some Socratic dialogue until we hit upon the deeper ideas they first didn’t quite connect with. Like, I write down the first grade given as a matter of my records, but there is no assignment left uncompleted and no problem left unsolved or not understood, even if we slow to a crawl or go back five lessons to firm up something they missed there. 
 

There is no failure, how can one fail in learning?

 

That’s a major, major strong area for homeschooling.  

Though if a “difficult teen” digs in heels and refuses to cooperate, homeschooling can become quite futile! 

B&M school with grades isn’t IMO so much “failing “ regarding learning (in terms of subject matter ), but more failing in terms of activities more similar to adults paying electric bill on time or not. Or getting taxes in on time or not.    (At least from my perspective as parent of child who is capable of doing the work, but resists it or procrastinated it.) 

30 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

 

They do have schedule and EF requirements each day and natural consequences when things aren’t done in a timely or organized manner, but I suppose the very structure of homeschool time, mom checks and discussions, and slowing down or missing other activities if things are going sideways is just the way it goes.  The kids are scaffolded but there isn’t really any way they *can* fail, long term, because it’s all just the process of learning and improving and absorbing and maturing.

This whole discussion is a bit foreign to me, and my only outside-educated kids are preschoolers now, so I don’t have a good basis of comparison.  But even with my middle schoolers becoming high schoolers and beyond it just seems really weird and difficult for me to understand what’s going on here - if an expectation or goal isn’t met or isn’t realistic for the child, don’t we love and want to help them gain understanding and feel successful while learning?  Even if that means helping with flash cards or a text reminder or some pacing on work?  These things will develop in time, but as a parent I see that ‘time’ varying by YEARS depending on the child I’m talking about!!?

 

There’s all sorts of help.  Going back to OP situation, it seems like @lauraw4321 DID want to help in various ways like that — but needed to step back and let her daughter handle the project on her own partly because that’s what the daughter wanted and partly because the Dad thought that was needed. 

Maybe a different analogy would be to learning bike riding.  We can start with training wheels, our hands supporting balance, or other methods like wheelers toddler bikes, but at some point if the child is going to be able to do it, the training wheels and hands come off. Some kids make that transition with no falls. Some do have falls.  One hopes (Most of us who love our kids, I assume) that any falls will be minor, and not result in quadraplegia. 

I think the days of throwing kids in deep end of pool to teach them to swim are over.  Or mostly are.  (I hope.) But even with human or flotation device supports (like “scaffolding” educationally) there are points when a transition to doing it without the support has to happen if the child is to learn to swim. 

Is 6th grade a right time? I don’t think that can arbitrarily be answered because each child is so different.

But where, as with @lauraw4321‘s daughter as best I understand,  the child herself wanted to do it herself, yes, I think it is right for the parent to step back and let the kid do it.  

And I think yes, that is hard I think, much like watching a child ride away all by herself, perhaps a bit tottery, on two wheeler for first time. 

[SanDiegoMom]

38 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Total aside but have you looked at Kelly Mahler’s work on interoception? It can be improved and is life changing!!

I will have to!  SO much to research! But you have great ideas and I love mining your posts for new directions:)

 

[Bluegoat]

14 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

No - everyone does "not" scaffold their child, in anyway shape or form. even for a spec needs kid who needs the support.  some do next to nothing, even for kids who would drown without it.

 

Everyone here. That is what everyone here is talking about, if you read what they are actually describing in the thread.  

[Bluegoat]

Quote

*Most parents would say, "well, there is a hard lesson learned" but for my kid, that may not be true.  He may miss the deadline next time.*

 

This is really just a jumping off point, not really about your son's situation:

I think this is actually part of why the OP is thinking now might be a good time to begin giving her daughter a little room to do poorly - because there is still a lot of time in grade 6 to learn those lessons, maybe more than once.

A child in university, clearly it's harder.  And  also, it's the case that sometime they won't, they won't overcome that problem or organisational deficit.  To me though, it really is a question to what degree that is separate from what some people are calling the 'content" element of a university degree. Everyone knows I think that in year one of a degree many kids need some advice on how to switch to a higher functioning mode.  But how long in that first degree is it appropriate to help?  What about a masters degree?  

I had a hard time with organisation as a student, and it wasn't the content, that never gave me any trouble.  It was always the organisational stuff.  But I failed a class I needed for the degree I wanted, badly.  In fact I failed it twice and never did get that credit.  It meant that I didn't get quite the sort of degree I wanted and it affected what I could do afterwards, graduate work in my subject wasn't a possibility and even another sort of graduate degree might not have been possible.  

I found other things to do, in the end, as people do.  And I realised pretty quickly once I was out of that environment that it wasn't just a problem external to the subject - if I wanted to have that degree, go on, I needed to be able to organise myself and my work adequately, because that is what is required to do the work.  If someone had helped me through my BA, I would still have been lacking what was required for the MA and it would have begun to affect my ability to deal with the content sooner rather than later.

Which is why I wonder, when people say they will continue to scaffold for as long as necessary, where they are really thinking they will draw the line?  

Edited November 15, 2019 by Bluegoat

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Everyone here. That is what everyone here is talking about, if you read what they are actually describing in the thread.  

it didn't say "every one here".  It said "everyone does that".  I did not see an implication in the content of the post it was only talking about those on this thread, or those on this board.

IME - making unequivocal "everyone" statements, doesn't work out too well.

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, MysteryJen said:

I think that 11 is the perfect age to begin with understanding how your own brain works, how you best succeed, what you need to do your best. The most difficult thing for my kids to realize was that no matter how hard they worked, they couldn't work their way out of their LD. They could make things easier- but certain things were always and forever going to be harder for them than for other people. High schools are hit and miss with accomodations and kids need to be ready to advocate for themselves then. College is more of the same. ds2's college is perfect for him- but it would be a disaster for my dd2. 

Middle schoolers need scaffolding in lots of things- middle schoolers with LDs need more help than they want. It doesn't have to be a parent- but they still need it and parents should help them find it. Coaches, teachers, tutors, counselors- there are so many ways to get your kid the help they need and not be front and center.

 

 

But how do they come to this realisation if they don't get to try things their own way?

[marbel]

37 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

<snip>

I found other things to do, in the end, as people do.  And I realised pretty quickly once I was out of that environment that it wasn't just a problem external to the subject - if I wanted to have that degree, go on, I needed to be able to organise myself and my work adequately, because that is what is required to do the work.  If someone had helped me through my BA, I would still have been lacking what was required for the MA and it would have begun to affect my ability to deal with the content sooner rather than later.

Which is why I wonder, when people say they will continue to scaffold for as long as necessary, where they are really thinking they will draw the line?  

Your final line is a good question.

But, to the bolded: I think it depends on how the help is given. If it's given in a way that adds to the student's ability to do it on their own next time, then by the time grad school comes around, the problem may be solved. (Rather than just doing something for the student without their involvement at all.)  I think people have given examples of this in this thread, such as my example of helping a kid write certain sorts of letters, then keeping those letters accessible as examples for the next time around.  It's not some huge fabulous idea on my part, just a way of helping the student become self-sufficient in the future. 

Of course at some point when too much help is needed, and it's not helping the student get anywhere, things will probably need to change. 

But getting help at a certain level doesn't mean that help is always going to be needed, if the student is teachable and the things being taught are attainable. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by marbel

[Bluegoat]

7 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

it didn't say "every one here".  It said "everyone does that".  I did not see an implication in the content of the post it was only talking about those on this thread, or those on this board.

IME - making unequivocal "everyone" statements, doesn't work out too well.

 

Well, yes, that is why I clarified.  Everyone here is talking about this yet for some reason some people are getting jumped on for cruelly leaving their kids to wallow with no help.

[MysteryJen]

8 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

But how do they come to this realisation if they don't get to try things their own way?

Sitting in a class with NT people- and doing an in class reading assignment. 

Or an in-class essay

or a multiple choice test.

or asking for an oral test at the DMV

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

You seem to imply that scaffolding and accomodations mean that kids with LDs can avoid or prevent failure. It means showing the kids a path toward success and a way of reflecting their true abilities- a way out of the constant sense of failure and inadequacy. When people start to see success, they tend to want it to continue.

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

Sitting in a class with NT people- and doing an in class reading assignment. 

Or an in-class essay

or a multiple choice test.

or asking for an oral test at the DMV

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

You seem to imply that scaffolding and accomodations mean that kids with LDs can avoid or prevent failure. It means showing the kids a path toward success and a way of reflecting their true abilities- a way out of the constant sense of failure and inadequacy. When people start to see success, they tend to want it to continue.

To the bolded, that is exactly what some have described/said/implied. Taking on tasks, not teaching or referring or facilitating, but literally doing things to prevent failure. It’s not even to prevent academic failure per se but unpleasant grooming and dietary consequences too...and not for pubescent people but the 18-24yos. 

[Bluegoat]

20 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

Sitting in a class with NT people- and doing an in class reading assignment. 

Or an in-class essay

or a multiple choice test.

or asking for an oral test at the DMV

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

You seem to imply that scaffolding and accomodations mean that kids with LDs can avoid or prevent failure. It means showing the kids a path toward success and a way of reflecting their true abilities- a way out of the constant sense of failure and inadequacy. When people start to see success, they tend to want it to continue.

 

I don't see how this makes sense in light of what the OP was about, and criticised for.  

The OP wanted to give her daughter strategies which the daughter didn't think she needed or wanted.  That's a misapprehension on her part, not one that can be remedied by stepping in and making her do it the "right" way.  If that is even possible with a child of that age - I'd have simply refused, in fact I did.  Clearly she isn't suffering from a sense of inadequacy or failure.  

And how is letting your kid fail at a multiple choice test somehow better than letting them make a bad choice about a grade six project?

I

 

[lauraw4321]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

This is part of why I am particularly wondering about the discussion @lauraw4321 is planning to have with her daughter about planning things to allow for sleep (etc).  IMO doing assignments  so they don’t cause last minute stress, lack of sleep, etc, is far more important than whether it gets an A or a C.    IMO that discussion if it can be done well, so that it helps, and doesn’t feel like negativity and criticism to the daughter, could be a hugely important piece of teaching and scaffolding.  

I wonder if the procrastination monkey video could help OPs daughter.  

So, a few follow ups. I did have the conversation about procrastination / sleep and it was so enlightening that I'm so so so so glad I kept my mouth shut for once. So, first of all, she had already prepared her entire script in PPT in Spanish before she started filming. I don't know if the teacher scaffolded this, but I was really pleased with that. I talked to her about losing sleep, and she admitted that it would have been better to finish earlier, but that the only way that would have worked was on the weekend, and she didn't remember it on the weekend. I told her that if I were in her shoes, I probably would have chosen something simpler that didn't need to "prove" for 2 hours. She had an absolutely brilliant response. First, she said that she wanted something that matched the Dia de los Muertos theme of the class. Second, she said she got more points for having more complicated ingredients to translate. And third, she said that it didn't really matter what it tasted like because she just had to do the video, not actually bring in the food. It seemed to me these were all very wise choices in retrospect. 

With respect to putting the videos together into iMovie, frankly, she probably could have done it on the bus ride. I don't love that because she gets motion sick, but I was floored at how quickly she was able to do that. Clearly I'm an old fart who is slow at technology.

I keep checking for a grade, or trying to find the grading rubric, and I haven't been able to find it. She has had trouble turning it in because of technology, and I've been reminding her to follow up on that daily, but I usually can still find the assignment on my end. So it's weird that I can't.

We usually do our planning / calendaring discussions on Sundays, but I'm realizing that with some of these more complicated projects, we need to do them on Saturday mornings so that we have a chance to work on the weekend if needed.

Long story short, in this instance, I learned far more than she did, likely. I hope she gets an A (assuming what she's telling me about the grading rubric is true). I feel like my parenting wins are so few and far between, and I so often over-talk and over-lecture instead of just taking a step back and seeing where it leads me. I told her I was so proud of her. She showed me the video fully edited and it was absolutely adorable. She had some scenes of time-lapse, and she added sound over them, and was just generally brilliant. She got her middle sister to help, and even the 5 year old's hand waiving an American flag (because..why not?) appeared in the background and made us all laugh. 

[Bluegoat]

It sounds like she basically managed it pretty well!

The only think I might think about putting tech stuff together on the bus is that it leaves no room for a technology failure, as we all know.  It's all good until it's bad.  Of course many people ignore this as adults but it isn't bad to be aware of it. (I always remember a friend of mine in university who had a printer failure and had a reduced mark on a paper for lateness - the only thing he was graded on all semester for a masters level class. So a big deal.)

[gardenmom5]

48 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Well, yes, that is why I clarified.  Everyone here is talking about this yet for some reason some people are getting jumped on for cruelly leaving their kids to wallow with no help.

you (and a couple others) are the only ones using the term "cruel".  any of us objecting consider it "naïve".

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

 

You have a lot to say about having a kid with EF issues, but does your spouse have severe EF issues? It is an entirely different ballgame. DH has always been a good provider and has never lost his job. I have to tell myself things like that when I hear him mention that he's supposed to be in for an 8:00 meeting, and it's 7:30 and he's just stepping into the shower, and he has a 30 minute commute. Or mention a required training that he's six months behind on. Or that his supervisor wants him to take on certain administrative tasks that I know he will struggle with. These are daily occurrences in my house. When we were first married, I tried to take on scaffolding him and managing my own life (law school at the time).  Over time he began to (unconsciously, I think) rely on me for some of those things. 

After couple's therapy (more than once), we reached an agreement that I would not consider it my job to help with those tasks. It was causing me inordinate stress and hurting our marriage. So, I had to draw some lines, and say the serenity prayer. So, if I know that his failure to do a task will directly and negatively impact one of the kids (i.e. not get picked up from somewhere, have their health insurance cancelled), I make sure those things get handled. Everything else? It's on him. Even if it makes things more difficult for him. The line gets fuzzy when it's something like... he lost receipts for reimbursement for a work trip to the tune of $600. In that case, I called and got receipts sent to me, sent them to him, and then reminded him weekly until I saw that reimbursement come back in. It took about 6 months. 

So when I see what seems like a pretty problematic work issue (being late), I have to self-talk like this "It's not my job to keep his job. The worst thing that could happen is he'll get fired. He's never gotten fired. And even if he does get fired, I can support us." It's my version of the serenity prayer. Otherwise, I wouldn't still be married.

If he asks me to help him - like "do you mind setting up an extra alarm on your phone and making sure I'm up by X time?" then I absolutely do. But even though I remember that he has an early meeting when he doesn't, I don't consider it my job to remind him. Frankly, we're both happier that way.

I hope it goes without saying that I love him and I love my children. But, in case it wasn't obvious, I do. 

 

I do get it. I had 22 years experience dealing with a spouse with severe ADHD and EF issues, compounded by mental illness, and 4 more (so far) dealing with an ex-spouse (his choice, not mine) to whom I still provide a lot of support, even though his actions no longer affect me personally or financially. 

I absolutely understand how draining it is — dealing with both a husband and child with ADHD is like having 2/3 of your brain-space occupied full time by squatters who don't pay rent. It's super frustrating and often exhausting. Reading your post (above), I totally get what you're talking about, and it makes sense. I apologize if my question came across as snarky or flippant, but without the above context, the short version (only helping if it affects you personally or financially) was genuinely shocking to me. I'm still providing EF support and even financial help to the person who accused me of trying to kill him by "scrambling his brains" with invisible brain waves. 

If you genuinely feel like you will not have the band-width to provide some level of EF support to your daughter if she continues to need it beyond 18, then I would urge you to start thinking about a Plan B that is not sink or swim, despite what your not-entirely-functional ADHD husband thinks. Because every single parent of a college student with EF deficits on this thread is telling you that your DD is very likely to need some level of support in college, especially in the beginning. If you feel like, for the sake of your own sanity, you can't be the one providing that, then your options are: (1) refuse to let her start college until she can manage it entirely on her own (which may be never); (2) limit her choices to colleges that offer significant EF supports (and you will need to ask very detailed questions about exactly what they will and won't do, because a lot of disability offices really do not understand EF issues); or (3) hire a private EF coach. Good EF coaches are like unicorns and can be super expensive if you can even find one, and colleges that are known for catering to kids with LDs and EF issues are not always the most rigorous and may not have all the programs or majors the student is interested in. If it's in the budget, you might want to start looking for an EF coach who can work with her now (or at the very least in HS), since that would relieve you of some of the burden (and possibly lessen the pushback from your DD), and she would have a good working relationship with that person before she starts college.

[Little Green Leaves]

I'm new here and my kids are still small, so I just wanted to say that this has been a really useful discussion for me. 

I dealt with a lot of my own executive dysfunctions as a child and young person -- heck, I still deal with it. It was far, far milder than what some of you are describing, but it was enough so that I lost all my gloves and lunchboxes and transit passes, didn't turn in assignments or study for tests, and generally missed out on administrative information. As a child I firmly believed that I was missing meetings at which everyone else was given key information. (Spoiler: I wasn't missing meetings. I was just lost in a dream world.) The academics were never a problem, but everything else!

I wasn't given much scaffolding by my parents. They simply didn't think that way. And I intend to do far more for my own kids. It's lovely to read about what everyone here does.

At the same time. This thread has made me nostalgic for what my parents DID give me -- a sense of great freedom and confidence in my own ability to improvise. I have fond memories of walking for miles to high school (because I had lost my transit pass and spent all my money); staying up all night to do a year's worth of math homework, with only the radio for company; failing, here and there, and making friends with the other "screw up" kids.

I know that you're all talking about more serious EF than I dealt with. But there IS something to be said with letting kids explore their own abilities, in a safe space. There IS something to be said for failing, within reason, now and then.

[MysteryJen]

18 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I don't see how this makes sense in light of what the OP was about, and criticised for.  

The OP wanted to give her daughter strategies which the daughter didn't think she needed or wanted.  That's a misapprehension on her part, not one that can be remedied by stepping in and making her do it the "right" way.  If that is even possible with a child of that age - I'd have simply refused, in fact I did.  Clearly she isn't suffering from a sense of inadequacy or failure.  

And how is letting your kid fail at a multiple choice test somehow better than letting them make a bad choice about a grade six project?

I

 

I do not make sure my kids do things the right way. I do not share their LDs and my job is to help them advocate for the things they need. If they think they don't need anything, I might make a suggestion, but they make the final decision. 

The OP got some advice about how 11 yo with ADHD might need help. This is a long rambling thread and there was good advice in it. It may not work for the OP or for you- but maybe it helped someone else.

You asked how my kids knew that they had to work harder and longer than other people. I gave you those examples. I never said I just let them fail. Struggle can be useful, futile struggle helps no one.

It does get tiring explaining to people that LDs are lifelong. That supports might be needed well into adulthood. And you might not know (know in your heart, not just your head) that when kids are younger. 

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, maize said:

You say you understand executive function but you offer a parenting strategy that depends on executive function to be successful.

It worked for your child. This does not mean it will work for every child or even most children with executive function difficulties.

Or even work for that particular child once he's in college.

 

3 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

My DS is an extreme extrovert who loved being a dude.  He would do just about anything to be with his friends and we harnessed that desire to motivate him.  Obviously, that is one way to do things because grades were not his motivation.

And when you can no longer "punish" a 19 or 20 year old college student for not finishing his work by preventing him from hanging out with friends, what then?

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

I will have to!  SO much to research! But you have great ideas and I love mining your posts for new directions:)

 

Buzz me if you need anything. Seriously. It's a totally important topic. And if she's over 18 there's a new private FB group for adults that Kelly is moderating. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, MysteryJen said:

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

Yeah, like today I'm having to tell dd we don't think she can do a particular program, even if she gets in. It really bites and messes with them and sucks. 

[unsinkable]

52 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

Sitting in a class with NT people- and doing an in class reading assignment. 

Or an in-class essay

or a multiple choice test.

or asking for an oral test at the DMV

There are a million ways school and society tells kids with LDs that they are "less."

You seem to imply that scaffolding and accomodations mean that kids with LDs can avoid or prevent failure. It means showing the kids a path toward success and a way of reflecting their true abilities- a way out of the constant sense of failure and inadequacy. When people start to see success, they tend to want it to continue.

I am not sure what people are thinking scaffolding and supports are doing for certain kids.

In some cases, the supports only do enough to help pull a kids up from failing...so failing (F) to a D.

Or failing with a 25%-40% on a test, to still failing with a low 60%, which along with other work, is enough to get an overall passing grade, or maybe a bit higher depending on the weight of assignments.

And sometimes, kids get tired, as kids do...But when a kid who is hanging on by his fingernails doesn't study or "phones it in" the consequences are much worse than they are with a kid who has an A or B average.

Or take the teacher who has study packets of 50 multiple choice and short answer questions...And he usually assigns it for homework, and gives the class a few days to do it at home, open book. And then one day, he gives one for in class...And the whole class turns it in, complete, at the end of class...except the kid with LDs bc there is NO WAY he can do it in that time frame. And it becomes a THING bc the kid is so embarrassed bc the teacher keeps saying "but it was open book! What were you doing all this time?" So there is ANOTHER bad/ failing grade, in something the kid usually does really well on.

[Corraleno]

13 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I'm new here and my kids are still small, so I just wanted to say that this has been a really useful discussion for me. 

....

I know that you're all talking about more serious EF than I dealt with. But there IS something to be said with letting kids explore their own abilities, in a safe space. There IS something to be said for failing, within reason, now and then.

Many (most?) of the parents posting in this thread about our college students have been on this board, discussing these issues, since our kids were elementary-age. Believe me, all of our kids have had enormous freedom to explore their abilities, and they have had plenty of opportunities to fail — far more than most NT kids will ever have to deal with. Appropriate accommodations for LDs do not deprive children of freedom to explore or learn from failure. 

 

 

[MysteryJen]

6 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

 

Or take the teacher who has study packets of 50 multiple choice and short answer questions...And he usually assigns it for homework, and gives the class a few days to do it at home, open book. And then one day, he gives one for in class...And the whole class turns it in, complete, at the end of class...except the kid with LDs bc there is NO WAY he can do it in that time frame. And it becomes a THING bc the kid is so embarrassed bc the teacher keeps saying "but it was open book! What were you doing all this time?" So there is ANOTHER bad/ failing grade, in something the kid usually does really well on.

This.

This is why my dd2 has a reputation in certain classes for being "difficult." She insists on her accomodations on every assignment. And teachers who object- "you have an A, one bad grade won't hurt you."- get reported to her counselor. And I get an earful about them when she gets home.

[Little Green Leaves]

12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Many (most?) of the parents posting in this thread about our college students have been on this board, discussing these issues, since our kids were elementary-age. Believe me, all of our kids have had enormous freedom to explore their abilities, and they have had plenty of opportunities to fail — far more than most NT kids will ever have to deal with. Appropriate accommodations for LDs do not deprive children of freedom to explore or learn from failure. 

 

 

I hear you. I guess it's hard for me to understand why it would matter if a 6th grader messes up one assignment. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or maybe people are responding to something I can't see yet. But it sounded to me like leaving the kid free to flounder would make sense in that case. 

 

I really do mean the question, I'm not being snarky. 

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

This.

This is why my dd2 has a reputation in certain classes for being "difficult." She insists on her accomodations on every assignment. And teachers who object- "you have an A, one bad grade won't hurt you."- get reported to her counselor. And I get an earful about them when she gets home.

And this is a perfect illustration of why those who try to reframe the issue as "Well, I intend to teach my kid to advocate for him/herself instead of doing everything for them" is setting up an entirely false dichotomy. We have all taught our kids to advocate for themselves and avail themselves of all available resources! The issue is that sometimes the resources they need are not available, and that's when a parent sometimes steps in. We are not out in front of these kids clearing their paths and solving their problems for them. We are providing the support they need, that they ask for, when they have done all the advocating possible and they simply cannot get what they need any other way.

[PeterPan]

56 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

To the bolded, that is exactly what some have described/said/implied. Taking on tasks, not teaching or referring or facilitating, but literally doing things to prevent failure. It’s not even to prevent academic failure per se but unpleasant grooming and dietary consequences too...and not for pubescent people but the 18-24yos. 

Fwiw, as someone who is in the middle of doing college support, who knows that the outcome can be (for some kids) unemployable at the end, etc. etc., I'm pretty slow to criticize anyone else doing it. I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm just saying that's where I am. I know theory, but I don't know how it should really look for someone else. And I can't even morally say that college was worthless or not worth that effort even if (worst case scenario) the dc is unemployable. 

I mean, if the kid goes to college, needs support, gets married to a person who covers their butt (as women in this thread are doing for their men), and works a job, then who's complaining? No one, it worked out. But if the kid goes to college and is so overwhelmed he (ends his life), that would be a horrible outcome. I'm just saying as a mom that would be an unthinkably WORST SCENARIO. And then your other worst case scenario, at least to me, is unemployable or underemployed due to disability difficulties.

The moms aren't posting here, but there *are moms* here on the board who've had that happen. They could say what they think about that path. They might even think they'd do college again, even if they had known the dc wasn't going to be employable. 

I can just think of reasons why it's ok to support, where it might be achieving goals, where sometimes it was the logical path. 

There is a level of lack of support that would leave my dd unsafe. I'm not going to leave her floundering. We have to use our heads and we do what is best for our kids.

Think about the flip side too. If a dc needs support (not just accommodations, but actually SUPPORT, significant support, which is some of what people are describing here), what's the big deal? Independence is NOT the expected outcome for all kids and all scenarios. There are situations like "lives independently with support" and other in between stages. There are even states codifying this into with things like "facilitated decision making" where the person does not require a legal guardian but does require support. There is NOT the expectation among professionals that all kids would have the same outcomes, and in fact if you look at MGW's stuff she says the writing is on the wall at AGE 8. 

https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  

It's actually pretty simple in that sense. You read the profiles, find your dc, and you go ok this is the realistic expected outcome for independence in that profile. They can pretty well predict.

I don't consider myself someone who would live well independently. I never have lived independently, and I'm really not sure I could. And when I talk with my girlfriend about it (friend who is single), she laughs, like oh you'd get over it and suck up. And I'm like no, you really don't get it. But I actually have a PLAN. If I had to live independently, I would live in a resort community that would take care of facilities and I would part time on something like a cruise ship. I have really perfunctory ways I handle social things. Like haircuts? A couple times a year I pay the top person at the salon and I look the other way because I hate it. I moved my dad into assisted living and I have a plan for my ds that can probably work (independent living with us close by for meals, a paid weekly house keeper, division of his funds between care and discretionary, etc.). 

Whatever, we're really in the weeds. It's easy to confuse accommodations and supports. They aren't really the same. We're hearing both in this thread. And like I said, as someone in the position of doing it, I'm really slow to tell anyone else they're overboard. In the moment, you only can do what you think is best. It's easy for professionals to have hindsight and be oh so brilliantly objective and all that. 

Also, fwiw, it seems like anxiety is the decider on how things turn out, more than anything. Social anxiety, any kind of anxiety. Anxiety that causes a need for breaks. It's very clear my ds' stamina is reduced, that he wouldn't handle the pace of a 40-60 hour work week, no matter how smart he is. And some of that is very hard to see, because we're so hopeful for our kids.

I personally am pro growth on these choices. If the dc is growing, I think keep plowing. You don't know how things will, of a certainty, turn out. And most people I talk with (who aren't like me and this single focus badger of a personality) are like yeah COLLEGE WAS HARD. And they say it was hard for them and that they had to suck it up and tell themselves to keep going. And it's REALLY HARD when your kid is in the middle of that to tell where is the too hard and where it's the suck it up hard. And suck it up is literally a clinical deficit. The neuropsychs can test persistence, haha, and my dd's was so low. So when she calls with the drama, that's a lot for me to sort through. There's a lot of tough love there. 

So I would say my dd gets accommodations *and* support, and the people around her think it's appropriate. How it will turn out, I don't know. We just have to let it happen. I think reality is she's going to have kind of a quiet set point and find her place in the world, and college, in a way, is an artificial distraction from doing that. But it's also the thing that seemed to be the appropriate next step. Sigh.

[PeterPan]

44 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

your DD is very likely to need some level of support in college

Oh I don't know. I mean, I'm diagnosed and I didn't bug my mom too much in college, except for money, haha. I also didn't use accommodations. My dh got through without accommodations or his parents holding his paw. 

I think it just varies with the kid and you roll with what you're seeing. I'd more want to see strong instruction on strategies, teaching them how to access tools and resources. Then you'll know ok they need help to access those resources or no they've got this. You'll know. It's all kind of obvious in the moment. The thing that isn't obvious is how much INSTRUCTION can be done. 

360 Thinking

https://www.socialthinking.com/Products/flipp-the-switch-strengthen-executive-function-skills

https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/31212/executive-functions-trainingelementary.aspx

To me it's kind of exciting, because it shifts it from the polarity (let her sink like I did) to teach and help them take over.

But really, if she's not motivated and the work isn't sufficient to warrant using strategies, she'll continue to mask and not bother.

[Corraleno]

Just now, Little Green Leaves said:

I hear you. I guess it's hard for me to understand why it would matter if a 6th grader messes up one assignment. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, or maybe people are responding to something I can't see yet. But it sounded to me like leaving the kid free to flounder would make sense in that case. 

 

I really do mean the question, I'm not being snarky. 

Most of the discussion in this thread actually has very little to do with a public schooled 6th grader messing up one project. I think most of the posts are a reaction against (1) the idea that "sink or swim" is an appropriate (or successful) approach to dealing with an ADHD student, (2) that it's unacceptable and inappropriate for parents to provide any EF support to college kids, and (3) that providing EF supports to people with ADHD beyond a certain age or grade equals coddling or helicoptering and will prevent kids from ever learning to advocate for themselves or develop their own management systems. None of those things are true.

[PeterPan]

33 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

I am not sure what people are thinking scaffolding and supports are doing for certain kids.

Yeah, and other terribly unimportant things, like keeping them hygienic enough their roommates don't complain or keeping them from being desperate.

We really don't want our kids pushed to the BRINK. Stretch, grow, but not breaking. There are lines.

Edited November 15, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, seekinghim45 said:

 

Yes, but this was really just a venting thread.

For everyone. 

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, and other terribly unimportant things, like keeping them hygienic enough their roommates don't complain or keeping them from being desperate.

We really don't want our kids pushed to the BRINK. Stretch, grow, but not breaking. There are lines.

True story. I had an odor issue with my roommate. It was so bad I slept on the couch for six months. Some sorority chicks moved her in with us before Christmas. We bought her a gift basket of hygiene products for the holidays. Turns out her parents had cut her off because she moved to heathen Los Angeles for college. She cried. The smell was gone. You can actually develop relationships with the people you live with in college, talk to them, and form support systems that way too.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Sneezyone

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

True story. I had an odor issue with my roommate. It was so bad I slept on the couch for six months. Some sorority chicks moved her in with us before Christmas. We bought her a gift basket of hygiene products for the holidays. Turns out her parents had cut her of because she moved to heathen Los Angeles for college. She cried. The smell was gone. You can actually develop relationships with the people you live with in college, talk to them, and form support systems that way too.

Oh my goodness! Well I'm glad you worked it out and helped her!!

Yes, everyone needs love, and love is a good choice. And sometimes love is a loving push, haha. But here, love won. Great story.

Edited November 15, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I was pro getting them, I worked hard to help him be in a place emotionally to ask for them (as did his parent). Did he apply ? No.

Fwiw, I didn't compel my dd to apply for or use the accommodations for SAT/ACT. She didn't want to and was satisfied with her scores without. Also it limited her on what she could do, because she knew she wouldn't be able to do exams that required essay writing. So, like your student, we allowed it to be a choice with her dealing with the consequences of that. 

[Heathermomster]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Or even work for that particular child once he's in college.

 

And when you can no longer "punish" a 19 or 20 year old college student for not finishing his work by preventing him from hanging out with friends, what then?

My 2e dyslexic/dysgraphic/ADHD child uses full academic accommodations through his uni’s DSS.  He’s a leader in his frat, serves on the SGA, and maintains his gpa to keep his partial scholarship. I serve as an EF coach.  My little birdie is flying.  Thank-you for asking.  I pray every day that he keeps trying.

ETA:  BTW, he lives 1.5 hours away and resides on campus.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

to continue to coach children, even if they have EF issues

Also, at least where dd is, they don't WANT the parent doing too much. They'd rather do it themselves. And some of the schools where dd did online work were very hawkish. You could use their online services but they didn't want parents anywhere near what was going on. Now they meant because of fraud and parents doing the work, but that's going to drive it somewhat on the rest. They want the dc requesting the services, the dc using what is provided on campus. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Also, at least where dd is, they don't WANT the parent doing too much. They'd rather do it themselves. And some of the schools where dd did online work were very hawkish. You could use their online services but they didn't want parents anywhere near what was going on. Now they meant because of fraud and parents doing the work, but that's going to drive it somewhat on the rest. They want the dc requesting the services, the dc using what is provided on campus. 

This is the military perspective as well. Parental calls re:pay, housing, vacations, etc. will earn you a talking to from a superior and a lot of snickering from peers.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Sneezyone

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Heathermomster said:

I serve as an EF coach.

And if I were guessing, that is probably fading somewhat and maybe in sort of the range of parenting level. You're not in there with his syllabii writing his assignments into his planner, haha. He's been doing that for himself. He's doing stellarly. He's using his tech and problem solving. He's clearly doing well and DOING it. 

This is the kind of thing where success breeds success.

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

My personal perspective on failure is shaped by giftedness and perfectionism - an internal taboo against failure that took till my 40's to face, overcome and change (through, yep, 'failure').

Funny little story for you. I was incredibly perfectionist in high school. Like I literally had all A+s on my report card and was devastated when I got an A. I kid you not. Then I came to this school (for the gifted, haha) where they tossed grades completely. They sorta kept them somewhere, but there was no rank, they de-emphasized them, and basically they said try anything and hang the grades. And I was so all/nothing that that seemed libertine and like a good idea!

So when I went to college, I did the same thing, totally ignoring my grades. I still have no clue what grades I made. I graduated. I'm fine. So tossing the grades was mentally healthy for me and kind of the antidote to the worry. 

With dd, she got kind of competitive when she started online classes and was noticing. I never gave her grades, but then she had them and noticed. I just told her to try to hold her scholarship. She does. Sometimes I suggest to her she try something she thinks she can't do and see if she surprises herself. Like a C will be good enough, but give it a shot and see if you surprise yourself.

I think you give the guidance that is helpful for the kid.

4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

However, I think it's good for me to remember that kids with LD's have plenty of experience of 'failure' and they may not need the same lessons someone like me needed (more failure).

Yup, unfortunately with her mix, anything in her disability areas (getting out language, etc.) is hard. So yeah, she doesn't need to be ragged harder. And she's not even diagnosed with an SLD, sigh. Sometimes it really sucks. But that's a rabbit trail.

[Heathermomster]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

And if I were guessing, that is probably fading somewhat and maybe in sort of the range of parenting level. You're not in there with his syllabii writing his assignments into his planner, haha. He's been doing that for himself. He's doing stellarly. He's using his tech and problem solving. He's clearly doing well and DOING it. 

This is the kind of thing where success breeds success.

Thank-you.

At the beginning of the year, we talk strategy, but he’s sorting it.  

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yeah, dd is like that. I knew she needed the light scaffolding, because she was accepting it, but she refused it as soon as she could.  But again, no EF issues with dd, so the risk of letting her go was relatively low. 

We did faded supports. So her 2nd year they took the EF coach to consultative, and when dd would call me with a problem I'd ask whether she had used her resources and asked her people.   Now this year, her 3rd year, she'll say she has a problem and then in the same breath say how she's solving it and who she talked with to work it out. She's learning how it rolls.

Think about this too (just throwing this out there for anyone). If EF is 30% behind, then you're providing support to someone who might have the problem solving skills of someone younger. It is NOT immoral to continue to provide that instruction and get them up to speed. You wouldn't throw a NT 15 yo on campus un supported, and yet your gifted 18 yo might have the problem solving ability of a 15 yo or someone even much younger. It's normal to need continued support in those situations.

And look at what I just said about my dd. Now 3 years in, she's doing what a more NT dc might have done at 18. Imagine that, the math was right.