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lauraw4321

Letting your kid fail

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3 minutes ago, katilac said:

Bosses did, and their bosses sent reminders to them. The vast majority of people need to be reminded of things and kept on track. That's why managers and project managers exist. 

 


I think occasional reminders are not unusual from the person or persons ultimately responsible for the work being done. Parental reminders are not. In the event the frequency of reminders is excessive, one would also expect to no longer be employed.

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7 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

He needs daily help, from someone who wants to hear about what he's learned and who can recognize his big wins and successes, while still noticing where he's starting to put something off or get overwhelmed.[/b] At the moment, I'm the best candidate for this. And after college, he will not need me to help with his career.

So I hope I have illuminated the EF situation in some way, for anyone who is confused. I've described a student who HAS all the skills and who HAS all the intelligence, who just needs help with too many irons in the fire. College is not too many irons in the fire for everyone. But it is for him. His career and post-college life will not have too many irons in the fire. 

After reading this entire post, I don't know how what you're talking about would be able to be done by someone who doesn't know your son intimately. I don't know how someone who can't read him or know this stuff about him in detail would be able to do what you're doing. Or at least, the bolded sounds a lot like what people pay a life coach or even a therapist per hour to do for them and that's with taking weeks or months to develop a good relationship. But maybe I'm incorrect and still reading it wrong.

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:


I think occasional reminders are not unusual from the person or persons ultimately responsible for the work being done. Parental reminders for neurotypical students are not. In the event the frequency of reminders is excessive, one would also expect to no longer be employed.

I once worked as a back office medical assistant for a general practitioner who was definitely the absent-minded professor type. He needed excessive reminders. It was almost comical, how many reminders he needed, and how frequently. He didn't expect to lose his job because he was the boss. It was his business, and we worked for him. He only hired people who would help him remember stuff. Not all the employees, but one in the front office and two in the back office. Duties were clearly outlined, and included specifics like "Don't let Dr. M leave the room without XYZ. He will not remember. You are responsible for this!"

My best friend is married to a very successful lawyer who has autism. She worked as his secretary for years, until she quit to homeschool their children. Someone else was hired for the very specific job description of keeping track of more than a secretary usually keeps track of, because the boss was not neurotypical.

As far as my bolded additions to your quote, surely you know that another definition of disability might be "unusual." However, I disagree that it's so unusual for college students to need parental reminders, at least for first year and/or first generation college students. It's a new thing to learn, and they will learn it.

As far as adults at work: The onus is on every adult to find a career and job at which they can succeed. But being neurotypical and ordinarily abled are not requirements for employment or success.

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:


I think occasional reminders are not unusual from the person or persons ultimately responsible for the work being done. Parental reminders are not. In the event the frequency of reminders is excessive, one would also expect to no longer be employed.

So who do you think sends these reminders to college students? Because most professors don't. And the so-called "academic coaches" won't. And the assigned Disability Advisor won't. So that leaves a paid EF coach or a parent. Are reminders from paid coaches OK? But reminders from a free EF coach, who just happens to be a parent, is unacceptable and just plain pathetic? 

As LSB very eloquently explained, there is a HUGE difference between having A job with A boss and multiple projects, and having 5 bosses with dozens of unrelated assignments and projects for each, which change every 4 months, while also juggling many other responsibilities. There is also a difference between being an 18 yr old college freshman and being a 22 or 24 year old employee.

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1 minute ago, EmseB said:

After reading this entire post, I don't know how what you're talking about would be able to be done by someone who doesn't know your son intimately. I don't know how someone who can't read him or know this stuff about him in detail would be able to do what you're doing. Or at least, the bolded sounds a lot like what people pay a life coach or even a therapist per hour to do for them and that's with taking weeks or months to develop a good relationship. But maybe I'm incorrect and still reading it wrong.

 

Well, my daughter-in-law is a special needs teacher in a high school. This is basically what she does for her students, in addition to her work of writing their education plans and working with their teachers. It's kind of a new field, and she has special training, to be able to do it for children who are not her own and whom she just met. Her mentors and college professors hope to see such programs expanded into more high schools and also into universities.

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2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

So who do you think sends these reminders to college students? Because most professors don't. And the so-called "academic coaches" won't. And the assigned Disability Advisor won't. So that leaves a paid EF coach or a parent. Are reminders from paid coaches OK? But reminders from a free EF coach, who just happens to be a parent, is unacceptable and just plain pathetic? 

As LSB very eloquently explained, there is a HUGE difference between having A job with A boss and multiple projects, and having 5 bosses with dozens of unrelated assignments and projects for each, which change every 4 months, while also juggling many other responsibilities. There is also a difference between being an 18 yr old college freshman and being a 22 or 24 year old employee.


I don’t know what kinds of services are available at every institution. As I said, I think it’s reasonable for a university to help a student make a plan. I also think it’s reasonable for students to use that plan to, on their own, create reminders in an app like remind, phone alarms/calendar, physical planner or other system. I am not opposed to people organizing their lives to address deficits. If you can establish a business and have employees to cater to those needs, great. My objection is to parents doing that work for college-going adults vs. students learning to develop systems, obtain supports on their own.

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17 minutes ago, katilac said:

Bosses did, and their bosses sent reminders to them. The vast majority of people need to be reminded of things and kept on track. That's why managers and project managers exist. 

 

This is what I was trying to get at, upthread, and couldn't manage to say it.

And, a recent college graduate in an entry-level position is generally not expected to work as independently as a more senior employee. As the employee gets more experience and expertise, they may be promoted to positions with more responsibility, eventually perhaps to become the managers and project managers themselves. Some of those may be people with EF issues who need extra support while in school (including college).  It's not like most recent college grads are immediately put into upper management positions (though I'm sure some are, so no one needs to tell me they know someone who did just that) running complex projects with no oversight at all.

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I will bow out of commenting because my intention is not to say that anyone's kids are stupid or lazy. I do fundamentally disagree with some things said here about college level expectations and what college prep looks like, but I don't think it would be well received if I try to articulate. I don't have experience having a kid in college.

In case it matters, I also don't think that people who don't fit a college mold are stupid or lazy. It took me 17 years to get a bachelor's. Off the top of my head, the five most intelligent and/or hardworking people I know don't have degrees. I don't think being able to "do college" or not says anything about one's character or Intelligence. FWIW.

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8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


I don’t know what kinds of services are available at every institution. As I said, I think it’s reasonable for a university to help a student make a plan. I also think it’s reasonable for students to use that plan to, on their own, create reminders in an app like remind, phone alarms/calendar, physical planner or other system. I am not opposed to people organizing their lives to address deficits. If you can establish a business and have employees to cater to those needs, great. My objection is to parents doing that work for college-going adults vs. students learning to develop systems, obtain supports on their own.

At some point, I hope you will also share your opinions and judgments on how parents of otherwise differently abled children are doing things to help them bridge to independence as adults. I would prefer to hear your personal experiences as a parent of a non-neurotypical or disabled adult child. Do you have any experience?

My third son is one of four children with physical disabilities and/or learning differences. I've gotten two of them to independent adulthood, fully capable, fully launched. This one will get there, as well. (He would be there now, if not for his physical disability that prohibits him from going into other careers which have training periods more suited to his capabilities.) His younger brother, with the most physical disabilities of them all, will make it to independent adulthood, as well. 

I know what I'm doing. Corraleno knows what she's doing, too.

Edited by Lang Syne Boardie
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6 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

At some point, I hope you will also share your opinions and judgments on how parents of otherwise differently abled children are doing things to help them bridge to independence as adults. I would prefer to hear your personal experiences as a parent of a non-neurotypical or disabled adult child. Do you have any?

My third son is one of four children with physical disabilities and/or learning differences. I've gotten two of them to independent adulthood, fully capable, fully launched. This one will get there, as well. (He would be there now, if not for his physical disability that prohibits him from going into other careers which have training periods more suited to his capabilities.) His younger brother, with the most physical disabilities of them all, will make it to independent adulthood, as well. 

I know what I'm doing. Corraleno knows what she's doing, too.


I actually do, thanks. We are also working to build his skill set so he can function independently. He is capable of that so that is our goal. I neither know what your child is capable of, criticized him/her, you, or Coraleno. I simply said that I do not agree that college going students should be relying heavily on parents for this kind of support.

Edited by Sneezyone
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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:


I actually do, thanks. We are also working to build his skill set so he can function independently. He is capable of that so that is our goal.

As I said, same here. If you ever find yourself taking extra steps that you didn't expect to need to take, while doing that same thing that I've done and am still doing - building a skill set for independent function of which he is capable - I hope you will remember this thread and remit some judgment.

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Just now, Lang Syne Boardie said:

As I said, same here. If you ever find yourself taking extra steps that you didn't expect to need to take, while doing that same thing that I've done and am still doing - building a skill set for independent function of which he is capable - I hope you will remember this thread and remit some judgment.


Oh for Pete’s sake, disagreement doesn’t equal judgment. I’m not in any position to pass judgment on you nor you me.

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Bless you for taking the time to type all this out, LSB. ❤️ 

I get so frustrated trying to explain this stuff to people who don't get it, and it breaks my heart to know there are people who will judge DS for needing help with things just because they don't personally need help in those areas, even though he excels in other areas where most people don't. I feel like EF dysfunction is the one disability where it's still acceptable to blame someone for not trying hard enough, or imply that if someone can't do XYZ without help then maybe they shouldn't be in college. 

 

38 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Solely for the purpose of not leaving @Corraleno punching into the air here alone, I will add my two bits:

I am also helping a college student with EF issues and ADHD to get through college. He's my third son, he is highly intelligent and gifted in his field, and there's not one single EF skill that he has not mastered.

He just can't do them all at once.

I help him schedule out the pacing of his major papers and products, but I don't have to tell him *how* to research, write a rough draft, revise it, cite it properly, add his bibliography. I don't have to help him with a single idea or a thesis. I don't help him with project concepts or execution, although again, I will suggest the pacing for the steps that HE tells me are necessary. He can cook, clean, hold down a job (and excel), do his laundry, iron, perform maintenance on his car, successfully navigate relationships, communicate with professors, see to his own health care appointments, maintain good personal habits...he has learned it ALL. He learned most of if it years ago, at the developmentally appropriate time (or shortly thereafter). 

And I'm the one who taught him.

But college requires all of this at once. He has to hold down a part-time job while he's there (including a sometimes unpredictable schedule), and his major demands large amounts of studio time (which is hard to schedule, for anyone). He has a special diet and a physical disability, and he does not have a neurotypical brain. I know this, because again, I have always been here...I have known since he was a preschooler that he is not neurotypical and he needs a lot of support, but he is also highly intelligent and capable; we never do come up against a skill or concept that he can't learn. But when it all gets overwhelming, he benefits from someone asking him, "So what is the next thing? What is today's list, and where do you want to start?" He will take a deep breath, and sort it. 

If my helping him - at the level of going over a giant whiteboard in the schoolroom every evening, and helping him draft a plan for short, medium, and long-term projects, and excusing him from his usual cooking and cleaning chores (temporarily), and being available for a few hours in the evenings to help him keep track of his homework until he gets into his predictable groove - if all of that means that he gets to EARN his 3.9 GPA, enjoy college, get that degree, successfully network for his career...

then yeah. I am helping him. And you know what, he's got a lot of friends who struggle, too. A lot of first generation college students, a lot of art students who struggle with the academic side of classes, and a LOT of classmates on various kinds of drugs to cope. They don't exercise, sleep, or eat healthfully. At least half of them will not be in college after this first year. My son will be, and he will be healthy. He will have picked up more skills, and I will probably be helping a lot less, with each passing year.

And his career life will be nothing like college. He will have to work hard, be creative, and collaborate, but the whole scenario is more simple - no more job plus unrelated classes plus academics plus studio time. His career will be one big thing with a lot of aspects, which works for his way of thinking. His father and brother are the same kind, and are excelling in skilled labor. This son is the first of this "type" in the family to go to college, and to manage many different things at once. He doesn't work harder than his father and brother, but their lot is straightforward.

My whiteboard and daily conversations help make college life into one big thing with a lot of aspects, instead of feeling so fragmented and overwhelming in his mind.

This is accommodation.

1. A writing lab at school wouldn't help him. He's a terrific writer. He does not need to learn how to write.

2. A math lab at school wouldn't help him. He has no problems with math.

3. A study group wouldn't help him. He enjoys discussions in class, and makes friends easily, but while he is studying he uses his own methods. They are more effective, because again, he mastered them long ago. He has found that study groups tend to operate on a lower intellectual level, at least during this first year.

4. A scheduled weekly visit for some oversight and encouragement for first generation or ADHD students wouldn't help him. (His brother's university had that.) He needs daily help, from someone who wants to hear about what he's learned and who can recognize his big wins and successes, while still noticing where he's starting to put something off or get overwhelmed. At the moment, I'm the best candidate for this. And after college, he will not need me to help with his career.

So I hope I have illuminated the EF situation in some way, for anyone who is confused. I've described a student who HAS all the skills and who HAS all the intelligence, who just needs help with too many irons in the fire. College is not too many irons in the fire for everyone. But it is for him. His career and post-college life will not have too many irons in the fire. 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


I don’t know what kinds of services are available at every institution. As I said, I think it’s reasonable for a university to help a student make a plan. I also think it’s reasonable for students to use that plan to, on their own, create reminders in an app like remind, phone alarms/calendar, physical planner or other system. I am not opposed to people organizing their lives to address deficits. If you can establish a business and have employees to cater to those needs, great. My objection is to parents doing that work for college-going adults vs. students learning to develop systems, obtain supports on their own.

I'm really having trouble nailing down WHAT the objection is. You think it's fine if you have employees that cater to EF needs, but you object to parents sending reminders to college students or helping them come up with a plan for the semester? But it would be okay if the university helped the student come up with a plan for the semester? Am I understanding it correctly? 

The problem that people are stating is that not every university will help the student make a plan. Specific accommodations differ from school to school, and some students flounder with EF even though they don't have a dx. If my kids would have found a great school that they loved and was affordable, with the main drawback being that they didn't offer this needed help with planning . . . Imma help them plan. I'm not necessarily going to require they pick a different school just find one that offers a service I can easily provide. I'm sure not going to pay an extra $10,000 or whatever for that school! That help with planning during college, that extra scaffolding, is exactly what will enable some people to later be capable of owning a business and outsourcing EF to a person other than a parent. 

fwiw, my kids do not have EF deficits, so I don't have a personal horse in this race. I've just seen the magic that can happen and the goals that can be reached when people are given the type of help they need, without a hard time limit. College is a time when brains continue to mature at lightning speed. And, as others have pointed out, the vast majority of starter jobs also come with a good deal of training, support, and reminders. 

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3 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

I had a programming class in college where you had to turn both an electronic version and a paper version of your code that was assigned for homework. The number of people who waited until they got to classroom to print out their code was almost funny. The panic that ensued when the printer ran out of toner or paper or the power went out or the printer just refused to work for one reason or another... you'd think the room was on fire or something lol. I will admit I did wait until class to print a few times but most of the time I was quite glad I had  a printer at home to print my paper copy on if for nothing else to avoid the extremely long printer queue from everyone else doing the same thing lol.

dd didn't quite gloat about the fact she went to sleep at a reasonable hour the night before major papers were due, while the computer labs were packed with people either writing or printing off papers. - and sometimes having to wait.

granted it's been 15 years, but even today, not all students have easy access to a printer.  and kinko's can have lines.

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1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Yes!! And we threw money at the good ones because they're harder to find than people think. And they're needed to corral both low level employees AND high level employees and goad them into getting things done,  done well, and done on time. Sometimes the most brilliant, highest level PhDs were the hardest ones to corral, LOL. Side topic, but I personally think that excellent project management skills are rare- at least they were in my field. They/those skills might be over represented here because we have a lot of the INTJs or whatever its called on this board, but if everyone could just get things done on their own and require no help in the work place to make sure it got done outside of their direct org chart, corporations wouldn't voluntarily be throwing $150 per hour at PM's to contract (and that's when I left almost 10 years ago. I am guessing it's even more now.) 

Right, but a project manger is not coming to an individual's desk and telling them how to spend their time between checking email, daily tasks, dividing time between work on Project X, and Project Y, etc. They manage Project X for the whole organization and want to see that tasks are getting checked off the list for that thing so they send reminders. At least in my admittedly limited experience. 

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Both of mine started seriously utilizing planners in the 6th grade and it took several years of me helping them plan and making sure they followed through for it to stick.

Oldest is a sophomore in college and spends a few hours the first weekend after classes start planning everything out. I did help him a lot his first year though in regards to planning and figuring the basic stuff out. I never helped with actual course work though. This year he's rarely asked for help on anything so I don't think I ruined him. He's doing really well and some just need help a bit longer than others.

Youngest is a senior and taking classes at a CC before following oldest to our state uni. I anticipate helping her quite a bit that first year of two as well, especially since she has ASD. She's done well planning things out so far this year too though. 

As far as work place stuff goes, project managers are a huge thing everywhere dh has worked as well. Dh is a director with a large company and checks in daily with his direct reports on what each needs to make a priority and when things are due. They definitely are not left to figure it out on their own. That's been the norm everywhere he's worked the past 20+ years.

Edited by Joker
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9 minutes ago, katilac said:

I'm really having trouble nailing down WHAT the objection is. You think it's fine if you have employees that cater to EF needs, but you object to parents sending reminders to college students or helping them come up with a plan for the semester? But it would be okay if the university helped the student come up with a plan for the semester? Am I understanding it correctly? 

The problem that people are stating is that not every university will help the student make a plan. Specific accommodations differ from school to school, and some students flounder with EF even though they don't have a dx. If my kids would have found a great school that they loved and was affordable, with the main drawback being that they didn't offer this needed help with planning . . . Imma help them plan. I'm not necessarily going to require they pick a different school just find one that offers a service I can easily provide. I'm sure not going to pay an extra $10,000 or whatever for that school! That help with planning during college, that extra scaffolding, is exactly what will enable some people to later be capable of owning a business and outsourcing EF to a person other than a parent. 

fwiw, my kids do not have EF deficits, so I don't have a personal horse in this race. I've just seen the magic that can happen and the goals that can be reached when people are given the type of help they need, without a hard time limit. College is a time when brains continue to mature at lightning speed. And, as others have pointed out, the vast majority of starter jobs also come with a good deal of training, support, and reminders. 


My personal feeling is that I need to be about the business of teaching my kiddos how to do things/find resources to do things without me. Call it adulting, whatever. There are many times where they will deal with stressful, overwhelming, frustrating situations. For my youngest, that could shut him down. I’m not going to be available to talk him down from the ledge. I do not want to create that kind of dependence. I think being able to access support services and advocate for the same is a reasonable expectation for college-going students. If that skill set isn’t there before college, we have more work to do. I will not be going back to college with my kids.

Edited by Sneezyone
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14 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Bless you for taking the time to type all this out, LSB. ❤️ 

I get so frustrated trying to explain this stuff to people who don't get it, and it breaks my heart to know there are people who will judge DS for needing help with things just because they don't personally need help in those areas, even though he excels in other areas where most people don't. I feel like EF dysfunction is the one disability where it's still acceptable to blame someone for not trying hard enough, or imply that if someone can't do XYZ without help then maybe they shouldn't be in college. 

 

One of my DIL's goals is to help take these conversations mainstream - she tends to look at special needs as a different kind of normal, which perspective comes from working with many people of varied needs. You do start to wonder what normal is, and if anyone is, and why it matters! The real conversation is about what we've learned as we help each other grow and succeed (in many ways). 

But I recently got a HUGE heap of judgment, in a new social group I'm in (actually, it's my youngest son's activity, but parents are heavily involved), when I "made the mistake" of sharing with some other moms that I was helping my college-aged son with anything. I didn't expect that. I'm not sure why, when the same people had been talking about their adult children living with them, or supporting their pregnant teen daughter, or babysitting their grandchildren for free, or taking care of their elderly parents. Why is it OK for all these people to not be 100% independent, without needing home support, but my college freshman with physical and learning disabilities should have it all together (away from home)? What?

Having been a parent for 24 years, homeschooling for 20+, and having seen kids through an awful lot, I am not up for that kind of shock at my choices. So I probably won't mention it again. My conscience allows this because my DIL is out there doing more effective and energetic advocacy than I ever could.

Edited by Lang Syne Boardie
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18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


I don’t know what kinds of services are available at every institution. As I said, I think it’s reasonable for a university to help a student make a plan. I also think it’s reasonable for students to use that plan to, on their own, create reminders in an app like remind, phone alarms/calendar, physical planner or other system. I am not opposed to people organizing their lives to address deficits. If you can establish a business and have employees to cater to those needs, great. My objection is to parents doing that work for college-going adults vs. students learning to develop systems, obtain supports on their own.

 

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I simply said that I do not agree that college going students should be relying heavily on parents for this kind of support.

And if there are no such supports available at the college, who should the students rely on then? How are students supposed to "develop those systems" if the only people available to help them develop those systems are parents, but it's inappropriate for parents to do so? You just keep repeating that it's OK if colleges provide those supports, but not parents, without explaining what happens when colleges don't provide them. Do you think students who need those supports should have to put off college until they're much older in the hopes that eventually they can get by without EF supports? Do you think it's better for a student to settle for a college that may not provide remotely the level of academic challenge they need but does provide EF support, instead of choosing a selective college that provides the academic challenge they want but where they may need some EF support from outside the college? Do you think that some people with EF deficits should just not go to college unless they can figure out how to do it without needing help with EF tasks?

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4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

And if there are no such supports available at the college, who should the students rely on then? How are students supposed to "develop those systems" if the only people available to help them develop those systems are parents, but it's inappropriate for parents to do so? You just keep repeating that it's OK if colleges provide those supports, but not parents, without explaining what happens when colleges don't provide them. Do you think students who need those supports should have to put off college until they're much older in the hopes that eventually they can get by without EF supports? Do you think it's better for a student to settle for a college that may not provide remotely the level of academic challenge they need but does provide EF support, instead of choosing a selective college that provides the academic challenge they want but where they may need some EF support from outside the college? Do you think that some people with EF deficits should just not go to college unless they can figure out how to do it without needing help with EF tasks?

 
I hope to develop those skill sets with my kids BEFORE they go to college and/or find a school that will meet their needs when they go. I do not think, given the many, many schools available, it’s impossible to find a school that can meet both academic and other needs. I would not expect a college to provide the level of support that you do.

Edited by Sneezyone
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15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 
I hope to develop those skill sets with my kids BEFORE they go to college and/or find a school that will meet their needs when they go. I do not think, given the many, many schools available, it’s impossible to find a school that can meet both academic and other needs.

My son's only option that had accreditation for his field is this one college. That happens to people a lot. 

What is magical about age 17 or 18? Why must your child be fully independent and not need your support at that age, vs. 21 or 23? Nobody here has been talking about their child depending on them forever. If a bit of scaffolding re: the calendar IS dependence. 

Having raised children to adulthood, I know that there can be windows for doing things. If we have a child with special needs and we keep him out of college until those special needs are outgrown or gone, he might never go. I don't see most young adults wanting to work with their parents for very long, delaying the start of their training and independent life, especially when they absolutely have the intelligence, academic preparation, and drive to start NOW. Honestly, I hope my son will acclimate to college before he turns 21, because I've not seen any of my boys want any sort of dependence on parents by then. (This is as normal for disabled young adults as for abled.)

When my son's physical disability progressed to the point that he knew there was no chance of a non-college career that would be rewarding and self-supporting, he wanted to start college right away. He didn't want to feel like a person who couldn't do things, would never make something of himself, too disabled to succeed.

I thought he might need *some* help, at first, even though (as I've said) he was pretty much fully independent and mature. He's got a 3.9 GPA and is advancing in all college-going skills, but he has definitely surprised me with the amount of feedback and assistance he's needed, to manage it all at first. It feels like when he was first diagnosed with his physical disability while going through puberty and starting high school. He overcame that. He will overcome this.

It would have been a terrible disservice to him, to not allow him to go to college just because he still needed home support. I'm not withdrawing his room and board, or his medical support for his mobility needs, and I'm not withdrawing the emotional and EF support for his learning curve. He's never outgrowing those mobility needs. There will, however, be an end to a need for any support for college, and he will certainly support himself (and pay his own medical bills) in the future.

Again, just something to think about. ANY disability does NOT mean being kept out of college or training until it's cured. Not everything can be cured, but some things - like wheelchair ramps and executive function coaching - can help a capable person meet their goals. Holding back young adults can have severe ramifications, if they lose faith in themselves. Our kids with special needs will go a lot farther if they believe in themselves, and if their parents believe in them, too. Again, I am talking about students who can succeed at college with a smidge of help. The learning difference equivalent of a wheelchair ramp.

Edited by Lang Syne Boardie
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3 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

One of my DIL's goals is to help take these conversations mainstream - she tends to look at special needs as a different kind of normal, which perspective comes from working with many people of varied needs. You do start to wonder what normal is, and if anyone is, and why it matters! The real conversation is about what we've learned as we help each other grow and succeed (in many ways). 

But I recently got a HUGE heap of judgment, in a new social group I'm in (actually, it's my youngest son's activity, but parents are heavily involved), when I "made the mistake" of sharing with some other moms that I was helping my college-aged son with anything. I didn't expect that. I'm not sure why, when the same people had been talking about their adult children living with them, or supporting their pregnant teen daughter, or babysitting their grandchildren for free, or taking care of their elderly parents. Why should all of these people not be 100% independent, without needing home support, but my college freshman with physical and learning disabilities should have it all together (away from home)? What?

Having been a parent for 24 years, homeschooling for 20+, and having seen kids through an awful lot, I am not up for that kind of shock at my choices. So I probably won't mention it again. My conscience allows this because my DIL is out there doing more effective and energetic advocacy than I ever could.

This is exactly why I keep having this argument, even though these discussions make me feel downright stabby, lol.  I have had these same conversations in other groups, where parents of NT kids make lots of smug comments about how their student is totally independent, and they would just let their (totally NT) kid fail and learn a lesson rather than coddle them like little snowflakes, and they don't even know what grades their kids get because they never tell them, blah blah blah. Well pin a rose on you for your superior parenting. 🙄 Ironically, many of the same parents also brag about paying full COA for their kids, providing cars, funding unpaid internships, etc. Some kinds of support are not only acceptable, they're downright brag-worthy, while others are shameful and should never be mentioned publicly.

The reason I even bother is because I know there are other parents out there whose non-NT kids still need support and I don't want them to see all those smug comments and think they either need to shove their kid out the door at 18 and let them sink or swim without a lifejacket, or else accept that said kid will never grow up and will be living in their basement for the rest of his or her life. 

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3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This is exactly why I keep having this argument, even though these discussions make me feel downright stabby, lol.  I have had these same conversations in other groups, where parents of NT kids make lots of smug comments about how their student is totally independent, and they would just let their (totally NT) kid fail and learn a lesson rather than coddle them like little snowflakes, and they don't even know what grades their kids get because they never tell them, blah blah blah. Well pin a rose on you for your superior parenting. 🙄 Ironically, many of the same parents also brag about paying full COA for their kids, providing cars, funding unpaid internships, etc. Some kinds of support are not only acceptable, they're downright brag-worthy, while others are shameful and should never be mentioned publicly.

The reason I even bother is because I know there are other parents out there whose non-NT kids still need support and I don't want them to see all those smug comments and think they either need to shove their kid out the door at 18 and let them sink or swim without a lifejacket, or else accept that said kid will never grow up and will be living in their basement for the rest of his or her life. 

Also, the idea that our kids don't know struggle and have never failed. Ye gods. Walk a mile in the shoes of a kid with a physical disability or learning difference, he has been knocked DOWN a few times. And got back up, and fought, and won. My son is very tough, and has paid his own way, as much as he is able, since he was 16 years old.

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25 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 
I hope to develop those skill sets with my kids BEFORE they go to college and/or find a school that will meet their needs when they go. I do not think, given the many, many schools available, it’s impossible to find a school that can meet both academic and other needs. I would not expect a college to provide the level of support that you do.

Do you have a child with ADHD and serious EF issues? If so, what will you do if you get to college age and they simply don't have ALL of those skills? Would you really tell a high-IQ kid with top grades and test scores who gets accepted to an excellent university that's tops for his or her major "Sorry, that school doesn't seem to provide the level of EF support you still need at 18, so you will have to go to this small LAC over here that doesn't really have the courses you want and where your test scores are at the 99th percentile, because I am not going to help you!"

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1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Right, but a project manger is not coming to an individual's desk and telling them how to spend their time between checking email, daily tasks, dividing time between work on Project X, and Project Y, etc. They manage Project X for the whole organization and want to see that tasks are getting checked off the list for that thing so they send reminders. At least in my admittedly limited experience. 

Like I mentioned- this is a side line conversation waaay off from the OP and only my anecdotal, single person story. But, once I was out of grad school, pretty soon after I was a PM in the pharma industry, and I did indeed have to come down like a ton of bricks on some of my subordinates to get things done and these were not dumb people. And this was private industry- not a lot of free rides there- which was foreign to me because I absolutely HATE being micromanaged. It's very anti- my personality. But you know what I found out? A lot of people like it. And they like being hand-held. Some need it. And all of the things I detested about work interactions, they absolutely craved and excelled off of. So I had to do the handholding, and the cheering, and the goading, or the prodding or whatever worked you know? Until I worked enough up the ladder that I could pay someone else to do that and not have to be in that part. Because I do not care for that part.....it was a learning experience. I do not think a lot of *me* types would be more productive though because I'm not creative. At all. I could never do what they were doing. They were at a brilliant level, but their EF sucked (I didn't know that is what is was called at the time), and the irony is I got paid MORE than they did to manage them, even though they were the truly unique individuals in the bunch, but so goes the ways of the world......But the likes/dislikes- it reminded me of university where while I find sororities and fraternities repulsive, I mean absolutely vomit worthy. But some some people crave that and find so much good in it. So, it was probably my best experience of to each his own. A lot of them were a lot smarter than me. I mean, I'm not patenting a drug or coming up with some new, world changing device. But they were. I was honestly just really good at being the bitch that makes people get things done, LOL and cutting to the chase. It was a collaborative effort is my way of thinking about it. 

 What was the most amazing though, was when I left private industry pharma and went BACK to the uni setting at a major research hospital (because I lost my mind) I did in fact become a defacto baby sitter because our Department Chair, while brilliant, had the worst taste in hiring that I've ever seen and these brilliant PhDs who could bring in million dollar grants, could not meet a deadline to save their lives without an extreme amount of handholding. Or they'd bicker. Or whatever. And then he was too polite to want to fire anyone so I got to do the dirty work of either trying to drag these people across the finish line (which usually a publication or a grant deadline) or else go through the steps of a major state institution to get someone fired, which, it's pretty much impossible to get fired from the State University system in Texas for poor performance. But anyway, on one hand it was ridiculous, but on the other hand these were the people who saved other lives because they were so freaking brilliant, and they could get a grant, but they couldn't "zoom out" enough to the big picture, in a single meeting issue on the other hand to get a part of a co-authored paper done. It was fascinating and infuriating all at once, and I guess humbling too. Lot of brain diversity in this world- that was my main take away. I mean, I eventually quit and decided that being a SAHM was a better mental health and life decision, but it was still a good to have experience. And that industry is still ticking along just fine and dandy without me!

I mainly wish I could have just put 2+2 together at the time about kids and then seeing what I did in adults and expectations. But I didn't' even know what EF was until these boards. And I was really honestly mean and unreasonable to my oldest in PS because of the pressure level the PS had us put on our kids. I think I inadvertently caused a lot of anxiety. It was a high pressure system. A lot of the kids were cutters and anorexics and other things in junior high and people wondered why, but I honestly think in hindsight a lot of the academic pressure was why....anyway, meandering response to your post. Sorry about that! 

Edited by Æthelthryth the Texan
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1 minute ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

My son's only option that had accreditation for his field is this one college. That happens to people a lot. 

What is magical about age 17 or 18? Why must your child be fully independent and not need your support at that age, vs. 21 or 23? Nobody here has been talking about their child depending on them forever. If a bit of scaffolding re: the calendar IS dependence. 

Having raised children to adulthood, I know that there can be windows for doing things. If we have a child with special needs and we keep him out of college until those special needs are outgrown or gone, he might never go. I don't see most young adults wanting to work with their parents for very long, delaying the start of their training and independent life, especially when they absolutely have the intelligence, academic preparation, and drive to start NOW. 

When my son's physical disability progressed to the point that he knew there was no chance of a non-college career that would be rewarding and self-supporting, he wanted to start college right away. He didn't want to feel like a person who couldn't do things, would never make something of himself, too disabled to succeed.

I thought he might need *some* help, at first, even though (as I've said) he was pretty much fully independent and mature. He's got a 3.9 GPA and is advancing in all college-going skills, but he has definitely surprised me with the amount of feedback and assistance he's needed, to manage it all at first. It feels like when he was first diagnosed with his physical disability while going through puberty and starting high school. He overcame that. He will overcome this.

It would have been a terrible service to him, to not allow him to go to college just because he still needed home support. I'm not withdrawing his room and board, or his medical support for his mobility needs, and I'm not withdrawing the emotional and EF support for his learning curve. He's never outgrowing those mobility needs. There will, however, be an end to a need for any support for college, and he will certainly support himself (and pay his own medical bills) in the future.

Again, just something to think about. Learning disability does NOT mean being kept out of college or training until it's cured. Holding back young adults can have severe ramifications, if they lose faith in themselves.


I see what you’re saying. You’re obviously dealing with a complex set of physical and learning challenges. That doesn’t change my feelings about transitioning service provision away from parents for most college-going adults tho. 

 

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

Do you have a child with ADHD and serious EF issues? If so, what will you do if you get to college age and they simply don't have ALL of those skills? Would you really tell a high-IQ kid with top grades and test scores who gets accepted to an excellent university that's top 10 for his or her major "Sorry, that school doesn't seem to provide the level of EF support you still need at 18, so you will have to go to this small LAC over here that doesn't really have the courses you want and where your tests scores are at the 99th percentile, because I am not going to help you!


I already said that we are not dealing with EF issues. We have the opposite challenge, rigidity. In answer to your question tho, no, we will not be sending either kiddo off to college if we do not think they are prepared to access or advocate for any services they might need (or if the school was unable/unwilling to offer supports).

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A question- I have one that struggles with EF and he also had therapy for retained reflexes as a 12yo.  Has anyone done OT for retained reflexes and seen an improvement in EF?  

We saw many improvements, and life is better, but he stopped the exercises.  Guess I want to see if there is a case for seriously getting back to them.  Thanks

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Just now, Sneezyone said:


I see what you’re saying. You’re obviously dealing with a complex set of physical and learning challenges. That doesn’t change my feelings about transitioning service provision away from parents for most college-going adults tho. 

 


I already said that we are not dealing with EF issues. We have the opposite challenge, rigidity. In answer to your question tho, no, we will not be sending either kiddo off to college if we do not think they are prepared to access or advocate for any services they might need (or if the school was unable/unwilling to offer supports).

Rigidity - one of my kids could be like that. (Autism.) It was very, very good that he didn't need anything for college, because there was no way he would have allowed any help from me. And I was not up for it, anyway; we had kind of used up more than the appropriate levels of maternal attention over a life-threatening illness that he had at 18. He hit the ground running in college. Totally aced it, in every single way, and moved out as soon as he could. We have a very good relationship, probably because we didn't keep pushing the parent/child thing past the necessary point (again, his illness). There was seriously nothing left beyond that, so it's good he didn't need it.

So I can see why you wouldn't be up for this. However you felt about it toward your kid, willing or not, it probably wouldn't happen. Shouldn't. 

I think my pushback toward you in this thread is that you are strongly opinionating and "should'ing" about totally different situations than you've experienced or are facing. If you had said something like, "For my child and for children who are capable of leaving home 100% independent at 18, I think that's appropriate," I don't think I or anyone else would have argued as much.

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3 minutes ago, matrips said:

A question- I have one that struggles with EF and he also had therapy for retained reflexes as a 12yo.  Has anyone done OT for retained reflexes and seen an improvement in EF?  

We saw many improvements, and life is better, but he stopped the exercises.  Guess I want to see if there is a case for seriously getting back to them.  Thanks

Oooh you need to go post on the LC board. Lots about this there. 

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2 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Oooh you need to go post on the LC board. Lots about this there. 

Really?  Okay thanks!

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

In answer to your question tho, no, we will not be sending either kiddo off to college if we do not think they are prepared to access or advocate for any services they might need (or if the school was unable/unwilling to offer supports).

So if a child hasn't developed all the skills they need by the time they graduate high school, their trajectory from that point forward will be constrained by the limits of their disability, no matter how intelligent or capable they may be in other areas.

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I know the conversation has moved on a bit, but just looking back at the things the OP said, I feel like the central question isn't whether or not one should provide the option of support for a student with EF deficiencies, but to what extent a parent should insist that those supports be used and followed when the student is unwilling. And at what age one should be insisting.

For me, for a kid-driven homeschool project, no insistence at all. Fail away, my child. For a school project for a major grade for a brand new middle schooler... sorry, kid, but this is why we do these things. No option to fail based on your desire to ignore the scaffolding.

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4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I know the conversation has moved on a bit, but just looking back at the things the OP said, I feel like the central question isn't whether or not one should provide the option of support for a student with EF deficiencies, but to what extent a parent should insist that those supports be used and followed when the student is unwilling. And at what age one should be insisting.

For me, for a kid-driven homeschool project, no insistence at all. Fail away, my child. For a school project for a major grade for a brand new middle schooler... sorry, kid, but this is why we do these things. No option to fail based on your desire to ignore the scaffolding.

Yes! So much this. I think it depends on where you let them fail. I do believe they should, but I think public school is the absolute worst place on earth to do it. It follows them.The teachers keep notes, they go on to future teachers, other kids notice and it ends up being a label. And here that was pre-junior high- we hadn't had it in our previous district, but oh boy the new district. Night and day. The kids labeled themselves "smart" or "dumb", it was very cliquish. Parents did the projects (or HIRED someone else to do them for 5th and 6th grade!!)  and no, the teachers didn't curve the difference. The pressure was insane. The irony was the teachers were just as bad at losing papers or getting thing graded on time- it would take weeks for grades to show up on the online system, but......oh well. I just really wish I knew then what I know now. To turn back that clock and see what the difference in approach would have been! 

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23 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

So if a child hasn't developed all the skills they need by the time they graduate high school, their trajectory from that point forward will be constrained by the limits of their disability, no matter how intelligent or capable they may be in other areas.


That is not what I said. At all. It simply means we would delay enrollment and work on those deficits.

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36 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:


That doesn’t change my feelings about transitioning service provision away from parents for most college-going adults tho. 


I already said that we are not dealing with EF issues. We have the opposite challenge, rigidity. In answer to your question tho, no, we will not be sending either kiddo off to college if we do not think they are prepared to access or advocate for any services they might need (or if the school was unable/unwilling to offer supports).

That "most" in your first sentence is a very important word. 

Second part, don't be surprised if you change your mind. If your siggy's accurate, you're a few months through the first year of high school. The next 3 1/2 years can be looooong, lol.

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I'll just step in to add that theres a huge difference between a kid calling home and saying 

"Mom. I'm swamped. Help me talk through my week and figure out what's most important and how to schedule it all. "

And continual texts like:

"Good morning. It's 7:30 am! Time to get up! Today is Chemistry lab! Don't forget your xyz." 

Of course, I suppose that if a student has ASKED a parent to wake them because they struggle with mornings that might be ok.. Or they need a reminder to pay a bill that pops up infrequently or something like that. 

I'm sure the moms here who scaffold their kids don't constantly say "Hey, it's 12:30 pm. I know Chem lab is over. Did you turn in your homework? Did you write down' your assignment? Do you have any questions for the professor? Remember, English starts at 2 so you'd better go potty and stop by the car to get your notebook. And eat that Granola bar that's stuck in your backpack." 

What I have pictured in my head, (and correct me if I'm wrong) are students who have a couple huge blind spots. It's not everything about adult life that is hard, it's just certain things that they need adult advice and guidance on. And mom and dad aren't helicoptering around their kids. Their kids know they have a need and fill the need this way. I am sure after the chaos of the first year or two the kids figure out their systems and can put it in place on their own. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Yes! So much this. I think it depends on where you let them fail. I do believe they should, but I think public school is the absolute worst place on earth to do it. It follows them.The teachers keep notes, they go on to future teachers, other kids notice and it ends up being a label. And here that was pre-junior high- we hadn't had it in our previous district, but oh boy the new district. Night and day. The kids labeled themselves "smart" or "dumb", it was very cliquish. Parents did the projects (or HIRED someone else to do them for 5th and 6th grade!!)  and no, the teachers didn't curve the difference. The pressure was insane. The irony was the teachers were just as bad at losing papers or getting thing graded on time- it would take weeks for grades to show up on the online system, but......oh well. I just really wish I knew then what I know now. To turn back that clock and see what the difference in approach would have been! 

And it's not like kids with LDs don't get plenty of other chances to experience failure in life! The implication that unless a child with LDs is allowed to fail in school, they will never learn to deal with failure, or overcome adversity, or advocate for themselves, is ridiculous. 

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15 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

"Mom. I'm swamped. Help me talk through my week and figure out what's most important and how to schedule it all. "

[vs]

"Hey, it's 12:30 pm. I know Chem lab is over. Did you turn in your homework? Did you write down' your assignment? Do you have any questions for the professor? Remember, English starts at 2 so you'd better go potty and stop by the car to get your notebook. And eat that Granola bar that's stuck in your backpack." 

Yes, exactly. I posted upthread what my conversation with DS was like yesterday when he was trying to figure out how to cram 7 of 9 assignments into three half-days, two of which weren't posted yet and one of which was missing a key component. He was feeling overwhelmed and just had no idea where to start — and was doubly frustrated because a large part of his problem was due to flakiness and errors on the part of the professors, which meant he had to cram twice as much work into half as much time because they didn't post things on time while he still had to finish everything not just on time but ahead of schedule. I also reminded him that he has a paper due at the end of next week, which is another shortened 4-day week due to another OOS competition, so he might want to take some of the articles with him to read on the bus, because next week will be at least as crammed as this one, and probably more so. That's the kind of thing he has trouble planning ahead for when he is in my-hair's-on-fire mode like this week.

Most of the reminders I send are for nonrecurring events with fixed deadlines, where there are consequences for missing them. He needs to get paperwork signed by every professor every time he misses a class for a competition — if he forgets to get it signed or turned in, he doesn't compete. He needs to sign paperwork for his scholarships every semester and deliver it to an off-campus office. In order to get accommodations for exams, he needs to pick up forms from the Disability Office for each exam, get them filled out and signed by each prof, and turn them in at least 30 days in advance, or they won't schedule him. Those are the kinds of things he needs reminders for, because those aren't regularly scheduled and they often have to be completed well in advance of any event that would show up on his schedule or "ping" his brain. Those are also exactly the kinds of things that many people I worked with needed reminders for, so I don't think the fact that DS needs help with that as a college sophomore means he'll be incapable of ever holding a full time job. Especially since it's very obvious how many professors need help and reminders about the same things!

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1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

So if a child hasn't developed all the skills they need by the time they graduate high school, their trajectory from that point forward will be constrained by the limits of their disability, no matter how intelligent or capable they may be in other areas.

nope  - it just means they need some extra time to develop those skills so they can be successful.  if they aren't organized, it really doesn't matter how intelligent they are if they can't demonstrate it.   I wish society would be more supportive, instead there are too many that take the attitude -- if you aren't ready when you graduate high school, you're a failure.  some kids just need more time to bloom.

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1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

I'll just step in to add that theres a huge difference between a kid calling home and saying 

"Mom. I'm swamped. Help me talk through my week and figure out what's most important and how to schedule it all. "

And continual texts like:

"Good morning. It's 7:30 am! Time to get up! Today is Chemistry lab! Don't forget your xyz." 

Of course, I suppose that if a student has ASKED a parent to wake them because they struggle with mornings that might be ok.. Or they need a reminder to pay a bill that pops up infrequently or something like that. 

I'm sure the moms here who scaffold their kids don't constantly say "Hey, it's 12:30 pm. I know Chem lab is over. Did you turn in your homework? Did you write down' your assignment? Do you have any questions for the professor? Remember, English starts at 2 so you'd better go potty and stop by the car to get your notebook. And eat that Granola bar that's stuck in your backpack." 

What I have pictured in my head, (and correct me if I'm wrong) are students who have a couple huge blind spots. It's not everything about adult life that is hard, it's just certain things that they need adult advice and guidance on. And mom and dad aren't helicoptering around their kids. Their kids know they have a need and fill the need this way. I am sure after the chaos of the first year or two the kids figure out their systems and can put it in place on their own. 

This is where age comes into play though. I actually do think that level of... um... scaffolding (cough, nagging)... can be appropriate for a 6th grader. This is one of the hardest ages for kids! Middle school is a crummy model that asks too much in terms of EF of average kids! And they ask it at a time when kids are at their most spacey right at the cusp of puberty and all the brain growth and issues that come at that moment. A lot of 6th graders still have to really think hard to write their own ideas down. Expecting them to maintain their own checklists and so forth is... it's too much!

A college student though... that's a different ballgame. Yeah, that level of helicoptering is too much. So there is a difference there.

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6 hours ago, Sneezyone said:


It simply means we would delay enrollment and work on those deficits.

Sorry to Corraleno and LSB for not adding my 2 cents worth. I've had a crazy busy day.

I think that some people on this thread need to walk in the shoes of the parent of a 2E child. My ds took GRAUDATE-level classes in math at MIT as a freshman last year while not realizing that he could turn the heat on in his room with the thermostat until  MID-JANUARY in BOSTON!  My ds got the TOP mark in honors physics at MIT for 2 classes in a row while concurrently not knowing he needed to check his mailbox. 

To suggest that my incredibly gifted son should be at a neurotypical level in all things is to suggest that asynchrony does not exist.  Which is false. Just false. To suggest that I should have held my ds here at home to help him shore up these deficits, would be a disservice to him and his strengths. 

I have always allowed my ds's strengths to run, while shoring up his weaknesses. But he actually needed to get away from me and our home to find where his weaknesses were. He needed to get in over his head for me to be able to help guide him to learn what he needed to learn. He needed to struggle to be willing to work on these deficits. There was no struggle here. I could not provide it - not for a child of his level. 

DS is one of TWO international homeschoolers to make it into MIT his year, and only ONE american homeschooler got in. To suggest that helping him was inappropriate is nuts in my mind. He only took 2 outside courses in his homeschooling career and both were at the local university and were ridiculously easy for *him.* Clearly not for others as that mean and median were 60% for a sophmore class, and my ds scored 100% at the age of 15. As in there was *nothing* he could not do that was thrown at him in a class 4 years advanced.  Should I have held him at home and had him continue with these classes? Taught him to be more independent, taught him to have better EF skills?  Sure I could have, but it also would have taught him 1) that he was better than everyone else, and 2) that he did not have to try hard to succeed.  Sometimes there are multiple lessons being learned. He could have improved his EF skills and become arrogant at the same time. 

To give you a feel for the EF challenges he has faced while in university:

1) Without parent support, at age 17 he could not rent a hotel room when his flight was delayed for 36 hours in Houston.

2) Without parent support, he would be without a passport. With an birth abroad, his passport renewal required us to be present in the USA (we live in NZ) to swear he was our son. So we had to organize for him to get it renewed in NZ during the 10 days he was here.

3) Without a parent with an American bank account, he cannot get a USA credit card or even something as easy as Venmo.

4) Without a parent to organize his travel back to NZ (ELEVEN and a HALF months in advance), he would be unable to come home at Christmas as ALL the flights out of Boston were booked up. And I very much doubt most 18 year olds would be buying tickets home 11.5 months ahead.

5) Without a parent to realize that his new 10K violin was uninsured, and to know that USAA was an option for foreign-resident parents with grandparents as US veterans, his violin would be uninsured because NZ insurance won't cover violins for residents overseas.

6) Without an American born parent to help him with American etiquette, he would have made a fool of himself over and over with professors and students at MIT.

7) Without a parent to help him organize for a hell NINE DAYS, ds would have failed many assessments. In NINE days he had to: study for a chemistry test, study for a biology test, write a wikipedia article, write a book chapter from a lecture (his grad class on content never published before), prepare for a trio concert, prepare for a private scholarship concert, write an ethics paper, and complete a physics p-set -- a single 9 day period of time would have destroyed his GPA. 

8.) Without a parent to help him decide if he could work for Fermi labs in Chicago with funding from said parents and without a licence to drive a car let alone a car, he could not make a rational decision.

I could just go on and on.

Why 18? Why?!?! Life for my ds is complicated. He is an international teenager at an Elite university with a background of homegrown courses. He is doing an amazing job, but honestly he needs what in the 1970s was called a secretary.  Does he actually do LESS than my FIL did in his career as a middle manager at Chevrolet? My FIL had a secretary to help with these things. 

I believe in my heart of hearts, that my ds will tell me when he no longer needs my help.  It is less and less each month. To suggest that I should have stalled his forward movement until all pieces of his brain caught up, is to suggest that people need to be equally capable at all things, that they need to be generalists. It is to suggest that I should have held his math and physics hostage to his organizational skills. I do not believe that this is fair. My kid is spiky. He is not a mooch. He is not lazy. He just has EF issues that are slowly but surely improving with *teaching* by me. 

Ruth in NZ

Edited by lewelma
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19 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

I do all of my best work when I am running out of time. I wish I could change that. But even if I try to do things early, my brain doesn't work until I'm panicking about the deadline. 😄

Lol me too

when there’s plenty of time there are seemingly open ended possibilities.  When I’m down to the last day I realise I have to pull something together with what I have in the house.  This helps to weed out about 90pc of the awesome ideas my brain came up with.

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This thread reminds me of when (years ago) I was told I shouldn't even BE in the College Board if my student didn't test well.

So, if a kid doesn't test well but can learn despite significant LDs and also doesn't show an aptitude or desire for any kind of skilled labor career...what do you do?

That is rhetorical, BTW. We figured out, at least for now, a way to keep him moving towards his goals, one of which involves getting a degree.

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10 hours ago, EmseB said:

I will bow out of commenting because my intention is not to say that anyone's kids are stupid or lazy. I do fundamentally disagree with some things said here about college level expectations and what college prep looks like, but I don't think it would be well received if I try to articulate. I don't have experience having a kid in college.

I think maybe the confusion could be thinking of it in terms of a college experience homogenously, instead of realizing the changing demographics for colleges. There are college that market to adult learners, colleges, that market to out of the box students who don't test well, colleges that take a broader range of students, etc. 

It's not necessary to think of it rigidly as ready, not ready, get this list or they will fail. We're going to take our kids as far as we can get THEM, and then we find a program that fits THEM, with the amount of supports they're going to need. 

4 hours ago, lewelma said:

I believe in my heart of hearts, that my ds will tell me when he no longer needs my help.  It is less and less each month. To suggest that I should have stalled his forward movement until all pieces of his brain caught up, is to suggest that people need to be equally capable at all things, that they need to be generalists. It is to suggest that I should have held his math and physics hostage to his organizational skills. I do not believe that this is fair. My kid is spiky. He is not a mooch. He is not lazy. He just has EF issues that are slowly but surely improving with *teaching* by me. 

I love hearing your ds' experience. It sounds like he's doing well and hopefully he's receiving good supports to get where he's trying to go! 

Fwiw, the *only* professional I've heard cautioning people about providing TOO MUCH support was working in Social Thinking and was SPECIFICALLY referring to the parents carrying weight (taking over, masking, carrying the load, pulling through) where the social thinking deficits were destined to affect employability. So she was addressing a situation where the supports were excessive, not instructive, not promoting growth, and not on a trajectory to lead to independence.

If a person is GROWING, they're growing. My dd is growing. Lewelma's dc are growing. There is no crime her in asynchrony. Now maybe I'll eat crow and in a few years be going yeah, what a waste, kid works at Target. And I'm way cool with Target. I talk all the time with my ds about realistic jobs for him and what he might enjoy. He has social thinking deficits to such a degree that he cannot handle sustained stress. Target would probably be a super fab job for him. Me, if I had to work, I would get a phd or work Chick fil A. No inbetween. Probably Chick fil A. I really suck in a workplace and you wouldn't want me. ;) But my dd is not me. She is growing and on a pro growth trajectory and should be employable. Giving pro growth supports is APPROPRIATE. 

And her university KNEW HOW to give supports to help her succeed while not giving her too much. They didn't just smooth everything over. They sat me down and said straight up this is what we're going to do, we're going to support here but not here because we want her to hit some walls. They LET her hit some walls. People who understand how to help kids grow know how to balance and do this, and her coach/advisor was saying that's what they were going to do. 

But, you know, every school is different. No she wouldn't have gotten this kind of support at the local state university, mercy. This school costs $$$$$ more and invested big $$$$ into making these kinds of services happen. There are schools doing that. Actually they did it after I sat down with the VP of the university and had a talk with him. No joke. I mean, maybe they would have done it anyway, but that was the timing. I talked with him and a year later they did it. :biggrin:  This is stuff schools use to market, an important offering, a niche you could say. And it's a GOOD thing. My dd has companies calling her up asking her to intern, because they like her mix. She's got some issues that go with her ADHD, but she also brings some unusual strengths. There is no reason to think she is unemployable or will struggle to hold a job due to anxiety or social thinking deficits. We are not masking for disabilities that will make her unemployable. We have simply been pro growth and appropriately supportive.

May I not have to eat crow on that. But right now, 3 1/2 years in, that's how it seems.

And if she ends up at Target, I still would have done it this way. We did the best we could and she has learned a ton and grown as a person. 

Edited by PeterPan
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10 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

This thread reminds me of when (years ago) I was told I shouldn't even BE in the College Board if my student didn't test well.

So, if a kid doesn't test well but can learn despite significant LDs and also doesn't show an aptitude or desire for any kind of skilled labor career...what do you do?

That is rhetorical, BTW. We figured out, at least for now, a way to keep him moving towards his goals, one of which involves getting a degree.

Bingo. If you get in the higher education world, you find out there are a variety of demographics and schools are marketing to them. Not one size fits all. Not college for all, and not the same college for all.

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This discussion reminds me of this essay on late bloomers by Malcolm Gladwell--though he was talking specifically about late-blooming genius.  But I think that it has wider relevance, particularly this bit here:

This is the final lesson of the late bloomer: his or her success is highly contingent on the efforts of others... We'd like to think that mundane matters like loyalty, steadfastness, and willingness to keep writing checks to support what looks like failure have nothing to do with something as rarefied as genius.  But sometimes genius is anything but rarefied; sometimes it's just the thing that emerges after twenty years of working at your kitchen table.

 

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Due to my poor time management and people management skills, I don't have time to read all of the comments.

I will say that I sincerely hope I will not be managing my kids in college.  But I would have said that about middle and high school ... and here they are age 12/13 and they are nowhere near "there."

I want to have a day to look forward to waking up when I want to, sipping tea, listening to soft classical music, and reading an inspirational book until I feel like doing my yoga.

You guys with all this reality are scaring me.  🙂

I have to admit, my mom still does things for her kids who can't get it together.  If she knew how much of a mess I am, she'd probably be calling me to remind me about stuff.  Which is why I don't tell her.  🙂

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16 hours ago, Quill said:

Yup. I remember telling a young person around here it was very important not to wait until the last minute to print a paper, thinking (for ex.), “I’ll swing by the library and print it on the way to class (the day it’s due)” Because there’s no cushion at that point and if the library ceiling just fell in from a water pipe leak, or all the computers are down at right that moment or whatever other catastrophe happens - you’re screwed. Well, like I said, some lessons have to be learned the hard way... 

I’m an English tutor at the community college tutoring center and this EXACT thing happens all the time. The WiFi unexpectedly goes out and it’s panic. 
 

9/10 of my job is scaffolding and EF coaching. 

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6 hours ago, lewelma said:

Sorry to Corraleno and LSB for not adding my 2 cents worth. I've had a crazy busy day.

I think that some people on this thread need to walk in the shoes of the parent of a 2E child. My ds took GRAUDATE-level classes in math at MIT as a freshman last year while not realizing that he could turn the heat on in his room with the thermostat until  MID-JANUARY in BOSTON!  My ds got the TOP mark in honors physics at MIT for 2 classes in a row while concurrently not knowing he needed to check his mailbox. 

To suggest that my incredibly gifted son should be at a neurotypical level in all things is to suggest that asynchrony does not exist.  Which is false. Just false. To suggest that I should have held my ds here at home to help him shore up these deficits, would be a disservice to him and his strengths. 

I have always allowed my ds's strengths to run, while shoring up his weaknesses. But he actually needed to get away from me and our home to find where his weaknesses were. He needed to get in over his head for me to be able to help guide him to learn what he needed to learn. He needed to struggle to be willing to work on these deficits. There was no struggle here. I could not provide it - not for a child of his level. 

DS is one of TWO international homeschoolers to make it into MIT his year, and only ONE american homeschooler got in. To suggest that helping him was inappropriate is nuts in my mind. He only took 2 outside courses in his homeschooling career and both were at the local university and were ridiculously easy for *him.* Clearly not for others as that mean and median were 60% for a sophmore class, and my ds scored 100% at the age of 15. As in there was *nothing* he could not do that was thrown at him in a class 4 years advanced.  Should I have held him at home and had him continue with these classes? Taught him to be more independent, taught him to have better EF skills?  Sure I could have, but it also would have taught him 1) that he was better than everyone else, and 2) that he did not have to try hard to succeed.  Sometimes there are multiple lessons being learned. He could have improved his EF skills and become arrogant at the same time. 

To give you a feel for the EF challenges he has faced while in university:

1) Without parent support, at age 17 he could not rent a hotel room when his flight was delayed for 36 hours in Houston.

2) Without parent support, he would be without a passport. With an birth abroad, his passport renewal required us to be present in the USA (we live in NZ) to swear he was our son. So we had to organize for him to get it renewed in NZ during the 10 days he was here.

3) Without a parent with an American bank account, he cannot get a USA credit card or even something as easy as Venmo.

4) Without a parent to organize his travel back to NZ (ELEVEN and a HALF months in advance), he would be unable to come home at Christmas as ALL the flights out of Boston were booked up. And I very much doubt most 18 year olds would be buying tickets home 11.5 months ahead.

5) Without a parent to realize that his new 10K violin was uninsured, and to know that USAA was an option for foreign-resident parents with grandparents as US veterans, his violin would be uninsured because NZ insurance won't cover violins for residents overseas.

6) Without an American born parent to help him with American etiquette, he would have made a fool of himself over and over with professors and students at MIT.

7) Without a parent to help him organize for a hell NINE DAYS, ds would have failed many assessments. In NINE days he had to: study for a chemistry test, study for a biology test, write a wikipedia article, write a book chapter from a lecture (his grad class on content never published before), prepare for a trio concert, prepare for a private scholarship concert, write an ethics paper, and complete a physics p-set -- a single 9 day period of time would have destroyed his GPA. 

8.) Without a parent to help him decide if he could work for Fermi labs in Chicago with funding from said parents and without a licence to drive a car let alone a car, he could not make a rational decision.

I could just go on and on.

Why 18? Why?!?! Life for my ds is complicated. He is an international teenager at an Elite university with a background of homegrown courses. He is doing an amazing job, but honestly he needs what in the 1970s was called a secretary.  Does he actually do LESS than my FIL did in his career as a middle manager at Chevrolet? My FIL had a secretary to help with these things. 

I believe in my heart of hearts, that my ds will tell me when he no longer needs my help.  It is less and less each month. To suggest that I should have stalled his forward movement until all pieces of his brain caught up, is to suggest that people need to be equally capable at all things, that they need to be generalists. It is to suggest that I should have held his math and physics hostage to his organizational skills. I do not believe that this is fair. My kid is spiky. He is not a mooch. He is not lazy. He just has EF issues that are slowly but surely improving with *teaching* by me. 

Ruth in NZ

I admire your dedication to your son. Some of these do not sound like scaffolding to me, but rather ordinary parenting (1, 2,3,6,8). 

With respect to 4, I can’t imagine a comparable situation, so I can’t comment. 

With respect to 5, I would expect my kid to know and understand the ins and outs of insurance with respect to a $10,000 object before letting her travel internationally with it. 

With respect to 7, I would not be scaffolding. It is a level of assistance I’m not willing to provide in college. Call it a boundary. Call it selfishness. I have my own dreams and pursuits and I’m not willing to continue to be a secretary - precisely what it is - when my kids are in college. I don’t know what the full consequences of that are right now. I suppose I may change my mind, but I doubt it. This is very helpful food for thought. 

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