Letting your kid fail

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, SKL said:

For my kids, I would be kicking myself but I would be scaffolding.  Then I would wonder whether I had done the right thing.  And probably never know for sure.

I agree that it's good for kids to go through hard stuff.  But does it have to be at school?  Why not at home, doing a non-school project, destroying a home-cooked meal, losing a privilege because they didn't manage their time well, wasting their personal money on something lame, having to wear less-favorite clothes because they forgot to get their favorite ones into the laundry?

What complicates it more is that your daughter may be right - she may be at the standard they expect for kids in that class, even if it is far below all of their personal best.

Just had a fuss today over a group science project my kids were supposed to turn in last Friday.  One of them managed her time poorly and did not finish her written analysis.  I was visibly/audibly annoyed about that, but at least I figured it was turned in mostly complete.  Wrong!  Just found out last night that kid (and 2 of her group-mates) did not turn it in, intending to finish it over the weekend ... forgot to bring it home Friday, Monday, and Tuesday ... finally finished it up this morning in the car before school.  The rationale for not telling me earlier: "I figured you would yell."  Me:  Damn right I'd yell!  Argh!  And my kid is 13.  What this tells me is that my kid needs more, not less, scaffolding.  (And maybe a kick in the pants!)

This sounds EXACTLY like what happened with my DD in MS. No amount of scaffolding helped. “I know, mom!!” Was her constant refrain. God love her, she just could not get it together. I hated watching it. I hated the judgment I thought teachers were heaping on me for not intervening overmuch. I am watching this same kid start to pull it together in 8th/9th grade. She has one grade we aren’t thrilled with but it’s a C and she can do better this term. She even cleaned her freaking room and asked to *gasp* remove some clutter. It is incredibly hard to watch while it’s going on. I don’t think failure means literally F grades for the term. I think it’s more about allowing room to make mistakes and earn those Fs on assignments before they show up on permanent transcripts.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

2 hours ago, DesertBlossom said:

I do all of my best work when I am running out of time. I wish I could change that. But even if I try to do things early, my brain doesn't work until I'm panicking about the deadline. 😄

Same!  I might be the wrong person to teach my kids time management!

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, marbel said:

Even college professors do this, to some degree.  I've seen syllabi with big term papers broken down with dates for research, dates to stop researching and start writing, dates to have a first draft done, etc. This is for all students, not just students with accommodations for EF issues or whatever.  Even in college they are still learning. The papers are longer, the stakes are higher. It's just continuing to build the foundation for future success. 

At every place I've worked, big projects are broken down with achievable objectives at points along the way, with employees reporting progress to management at set times. I've never been on a big project that was just... "ok, folks this has to be ready to roll out in 6 months, see you then, have it ready!"  Well, maybe the CEO says that, but then the managers... manage it.

I never had a college prof. or employer do this. They may have checked in to see where I was with something but assumed (rightly) I could break it down myself.

[SKL]

19 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This sounds EXACTLY like what happened with my DD in MS. No amount of scaffolding helped. “I know, mom!!” Was her constant refrain. God love her, she just could not get it together. I hated watching it. I hated the judgment I thought teachers were heaping on me for not intervening overmuch. I am watching this same kid start to pull it together in 8th/9th grade. She has one grade we aren’t thrilled with but it’s a C and she can do better this term. She even cleaned her freaking room and asked to *gasp* remove some clutter. It is incredibly hard to watch while it’s going on. I don’t think failure means literally F grades for the term. I think it’s more about allowing room to make mistakes and earn those Fs on assignments before they show up on permanent transcripts.

Just acknowledging that it is hard to know where to draw the line as a parent. 

I learned about this assignment at parent-teacher meetings - and I had gone in there with the agenda to complain that no work was coming home - to make the science teacher understand that the slower kids need more than classroom time, and their parents need to see how they are managing their work.  The teacher gave me a copy of the written assignment and later emailed it to all the parents.  This in effect shifted the burden partly to me, and I fully intended to make sure my kids got it done to the best of their ability.  Ha!

Kids of course know better how to manage their time.  It is hard to force a 13yo to actually work on the thing she does not think she needs to work on right now.  It was easier when they were 11.

In retrospect, I am not sorry I knew enough to advise on how to manage the work, even though not all of my advice was followed.  Some of it was, and yes, the kids can learn from what they chose not to do.  My kids also got yet another confirmation that it matters what and how they do in school.  Also that when you do screw up, you don't just say "oh well," but you fix it and have the discussion needed to get some of the credit.

As for me ... I'm still not sure what I learned.  I am not perfect, and I miss opportunities to be a good example or assign the right consequences.  Too bad that with kids, you can't just cram and straighten them out the night before their 18th birthday.  😛

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Just acknowledging that it is hard to know where to draw the line as a parent. 

I learned about this assignment at parent-teacher meetings - and I had gone in there with the agenda to complain that no work was coming home - to make the science teacher understand that the slower kids need more than classroom time, and their parents need to see how they are managing their work.  The teacher gave me a copy of the written assignment and later emailed it to all the parents.  This in effect shifted the burden partly to me, and I fully intended to make sure my kids got it done to the best of their ability.  Ha!

Kids of course know better how to manage their time.  It is hard to force a 13yo to actually work on the thing she does not think she needs to work on right now.  It was easier when they were 11.

In retrospect, I am not sorry I knew enough to advise on how to manage the work, even though not all of my advice was followed.  Some of it was, and yes, the kids can learn from what they chose not to do.  My kids also got yet another confirmation that it matters what and how they do in school.  Also that when you do screw up, you don't just say "oh well," but you fix it and have the discussion needed to get some of the credit.

As for me ... I'm still not sure what I learned.  I am not perfect, and I miss opportunities to be a good example or assign the right consequences.  Too bad that with kids, you can't just cram and straighten them out the night before their 18th birthday.  😛

LOL. I don’t think *parents* are meant to meant to learn anything but guilt. Ultimately, I am a guide but this life increasingly belongs to them. It dawned on me this month that I have three-four years to remove the leading strings. That is not long!

[gardenmom5]

12 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

If the teacher is realistic about her expectations of an 11-year-old's work, your daughter could be just fine.  There ARE great B&M teachers who can tell the difference between work a child produces and work the kid does with a lot of parental help.  She'll learn through the process and maybe start a wee bit sooner the next time around.  She might even surprise you and get a terrific grade.  I think it's healthy that she WANTS to do it all herself and that you are stepping back and letting her.  It would be different if she was all freaked out and you were refusing to help.  

I think you know your kid.  Just try to relax and see how it turns out.  I have one kid with severe disabilities who needed LOADS of help later than most, but figured it out later in high school and another who was independent by middle school.  There is no way I'd be inserting myself into their college work.  I think you have to give kids space to figure out their own methods, even if it means they botch it a few times, so they can learn to manage their own projects.  May NEXT time she'll be open to planning with a calendar and a realistic time frame, or maybe the time after that.  If her classes are developmentally appropriate she IS at a good age to figure this out.

that is NOT the same as the teacher being able to tell the difference between a child who has serious EF challenges - and one who just doesn't want to bother.  (and, ime, even spec. ed teachers will treat a struggling with EF issues student like one who doesn't care.)

I can speak from experience, for a child with EF issues, if you allow them to sink because you want them to do it on their own - they'll "drown" - because they CAN'T do it on their own!  they'll usually get there eventually - as their brain matures, and neural pathways get pruned into what is actually being used, but that is something that continues into the mid-20s.  (and with appropriate scaffolding, they'll get "there" much sooner and with significantly less pain.)

 

eta: I well remember the day 1ds had a high school English teacher accuse him of plagiarism because "teenagers don't talk that way".  (just because he has a better vocabulary than you do dear . . . . ).  teachers have enough students in their classes - they do not do well with the tops/bottoms.

Edited November 13, 2019 by gardenmom5

[City Mouse]

Maybe it will work, but maybe it won’t. I guess there is no way to know until you try it, but as a parent and a teacher, the 6th grade year (when moving from elementary to middle school) is the single hardest school year on kids with the move to 9th grade coming a close second.

i grew up in a house where the kids were left to manage school on their own with very little support outside of signing report cards each grading period and upset parents when grades were not as expected. How did that work out? It worked ok for some of my siblings, but it was a horrible strategy for my two brothers. Neither one graduated high school on time. I don’t actually know if either one got a diploma. They both struggled well into their 30’s or longer to find stable employment. 

 

[lynn]

In some cases if my daughter did not want to go to the tutoring offered that couple days before a math test or review her homework then she may get the grade she gets.  No w a project that's different.  I work with her to teach her how to organize, what she needs to do, does she need supplies, is there drying time, do we have printer ink, is there enough paper, check the art supplies on hand. Then help set a time.line a nd sometimes remind her.  She's getting better at making her own timelines now but does need to be reminded to think over what needs to be done.  Hoping by high school she'll be more organized.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Don’t call me in college, call your prof or tutoring center!

This is actually a big part of the issue: colleges provide tons of resources for kids who struggle with the content of the coursework, but no resources at all for those who struggle with management of the coursework — not even for kids with diagnosed disabilities in this area.

When a student struggles with understanding the course material, no one says "OMG, you're X yrs old, you're in college now, you should understand this! Suck it up and just think harder!" The universal answer is to ask for help, go to office hours, get a tutor. There's no shame in asking for help or needing a tutor — that's actually the smart thing to do! Don't just sit there struggling alone, get help!

But when a student has no problem at all with the content of the course, but needs help with organizing/scheduling/prioritizing/managing the workload and staying on track, somehow that's shameful and embarrassing. "You're in college, you should have figured this out by now!" Maybe if the parent is willing to pay through the nose for a private EF Coach (assuming they can even find one), it might be acceptable to get help that way. But a parent who does exactly the same sort of EF coaching for free is helicoptering/hovering/controlling and that coddled kid will never learn to stand on his own two feet! 

IMO the biggest issue for people with EF deficits is not the fact that they need help with EF tasks, it's that they're often unwilling to ask for help, or even acknowledge the need for help, because that's seen as a sign of weakness. Conventional wisdom says that by a certain age, people should be able to manage EF tasks on their own — and if they can't it's because they're lazy, immature, or just not trying hard enough. So many people with EF issues either flounder and fail (and end up blaming their problems on other people) because they won't admit they need help, or they struggle like crazy and occasionally, apologetically ask for help while feeling like abject failures for even needing to ask. The fact that my kid understands what his EF issues are, willingly asks for and accepts help, and is grateful for it, is a total win in my book. The fact that colleges don't provide help in this area, even for kids with diagnosed EF deficits, is what's shameful.

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This is actually a big part of the issue: colleges provide tons of resources for kids who struggle with the content of the coursework, but no resources at all for those who struggle with management of the coursework — not even for kids with diagnosed disabilities in this area.

When a student struggles with understanding the course material, no one says "OMG, you're X yrs old, you're in college now, you should understand this! Suck it up and just think harder!" The universal answer is to ask for help, go to office hours, get a tutor. There's no shame in asking for help or needing a tutor — that's actually the smart thing to do! Don't just sit there struggling alone, get help!

But when a student has no problem at all with the content of the course, but needs help with organizing/scheduling/prioritizing/managing the workload and staying on track, somehow that's shameful and embarrassing. "You're in college, you should have figured this out by now!" Maybe if the parent is willing to pay through the nose for a private EF Coach (assuming they can even find one), it might be acceptable to get help that way. But a parent who does exactly the same sort of EF coaching for free is helicoptering/hovering/controlling and that coddled kid will never learn to stand on his own two feet! 

IMO the biggest issue for people with EF deficits is not the fact that they need help with EF tasks, it's that they're often unwilling to ask for help, or even acknowledge the need for help, because that's seen as a sign of weakness. Conventional wisdom says that by a certain age, people should be able to manage EF tasks on their own — and if they can't it's because they're lazy, immature, or just not trying hard enough. So many people with EF issues either flounder and fail (and end up blaming their problems on other people) because they won't admit they need help, or they struggle like crazy and occasionally, apologetically ask for help while feeling like abject failures for even needing to ask. The fact that my kid understands what his EF issues are, willingly asks for and accepts help, and is grateful for it, is a total win in my book. The fact that colleges don't provide help in this area, even for kids with diagnosed EF deficits, is what's shameful.

Not necessarily so at all. At my university, the appropriate support for content was the prof. or a sorority/fraternity/affinity group that had class notes from prior terms. If you wanted EF support, the student center tutors were the best place to go. This is the same support they offer athletes but you have to go when the assignment/syllabus is given, not when it’s due.

Regardless, teaching EF skills, how to find/request those supports, is how I see my role. My child should be able to self advocate at home, school, and the workplace when all is said and done...even my aspie boy. Like I said, I’M GONNA DIE.

The difference is not so much in who provides the support but in who coordinates/requests it. It’s the difference between doing all the fishing and teaching a man/woman to fish. We began the message VERY early  that EVERYONE needs help.  My DS is struggling with this. Right now, I am his study group. Eventually there will be another. He has to learn tho that *I* am not his crutch. There are other resources. Seeing this as a personal failure is a message we spend all of middle school combatting.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[PeterPan]

38 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

but no resources at all for those who struggle with management of the coursework — not even for kids with diagnosed disabilities in this area.

Huh??? We've had other people say their kids got some kind of EF coaching and my dd certainly did. She had weekly sessions her first year where the woman would sit her butt down for an hour and say where are your syllabii, where are you at, is everything in your tech, are you on track. They also had some very intentional let her fail, tough love stuff where they DIDN'T tell her everything. But she was not EVER getting content tutoring, mercy. She had a super high ACT and is a great student. She continues to have access to that support person for coaching and problem solving. 

But whether all colleges/universities do that, I can't say. This school did a huge remodel and put money and corporate culture into it. If the school doesn't take gov't money, they really may not have these supports. It was something we ensured was there for her before she started.

32 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

We began the message VERY early  that EVERYONE needs help.  My DS is struggling with this. Right now, I am his study group. Eventually there will be another. He has to learn tho that *I* am not his crutch. There are other resources. Seeing this as a personal failure is a message we spend all of middle school combatting.

This is an interesting point. I'm not a group study person AT ALL, haha, but my dd really gravitated to them. The university has an office where you can organize them or request one for a class. I'm not really sure why they're popular, but they are. I think maybe they talk about what they're studying??? LOL I have no clue. I just know she did it. But again, that was something already existing, structures they had through the student service office. 

Basically you can tell when a university is sinking money into it, because they have couches, hip furniture, SPACE. They're making it look normal. And I think that's what dd appreciated, that the way the university did the remodel (and others are doing this), they normalized using services. So LOTS of people have a reason to go to that floor and do something, kwim? It's not just oh those are the (insert an adjective) kids. They normalized it. And they have ways they submit the paper trail for accommodations to profs that makes it tidy. So like to have to show up at every class and ask is very passee. The coor takes care of it, smooth and straightforward, notifying, making stuff happen. 

But that really varies with the school. It's just something we're pleased about. Dd was kind of snivley about the school, like oh I should go to a better school, I'm better than this. But reality is, she needed the supports to do well and this was a school that had them. So it's kind of a balance. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by PeterPan

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

But whether all colleges/universities do that, I can't say. This school did a huge remodel and put money and corporate culture into it. If the school doesn't take gov't money, they really may not have these supports. It was something we ensured was there for her before she started.

This is an interesting point. I'm not a group study person AT ALL, haha, but my dd really gravitated to them. The

12 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Huh??? We've had other people say their kids got some kind of EF coaching and my dd certainly did. She had weekly sessions her first year where the woman would sit her butt down for an hour and say where are your syllabii, where are you at, is everything in your tech, are you on track. They also had some very intentional let her fail, tough love stuff where they DIDN'T tell her everything. But she was not EVER getting content tutoring, mercy. She had a super high ACT and is a great student. She continues to have access to that support person for coaching and problem solving. 

But whether all colleges/universities do that, I can't say. This school did a huge remodel and put money and corporate culture into it. If the school doesn't take gov't money, they really may not have these supports. It was something we ensured was there for her before she started.

This is an interesting point. I'm not a group study person AT ALL, haha, but my dd really gravitated to them. The university has an office where you can organize them or request one for a class. I'm not really sure why they're popular, but they are. I think maybe they talk about what they're studying??? LOL I have no clue. I just know she did it. But again, that was something already existing, structures they had through the student service office. 

Basically you can tell when a university is sinking money into it, because they have couches, hip furniture, SPACE. They're making it look normal. And I think that's what dd appreciated, that the way the university did the remodel (and others are doing this), they normalized using services. So LOTS of people have a reason to go to that floor and do something, kwim? It's not just oh those are the (insert an adjective) kids. They normalized it. And they have ways they submit the paper trail for accommodations to profs that makes it tidy. So like to have to show up at every class and ask is very passee. The coor takes care of it, smooth and straightforward, notifying, making stuff happen. 

But that really varies with the school. It's just something we're pleased about. Dd was kind of snivley about the school, like oh I should go to a better school, I'm better than this. But reality is, she needed the supports to do well and this was a school that had them. So it's kind of a balance. 

university has an office where you can organize them or request one for a class. I'm not really sure why they're popular, but they are. I think maybe they talk about what they're studying??? LOL I have no clue. I just know she did it. But again, that was something already existing, structures they had through the student service office.

I’m sure this is university/college dependent but my goal is to find just this sort of place for my oldest, one with lots of cooperative/collaborative learning. She is getting better at EF but is not yet *there*. I think it’s a helpful tip to look at the space/ furnishings to see how well it accommodates meetings and group study. I always did this without thinking but it deserves more explicit attention. I will mention it to DD, for sure, on our next round of tours. Headed to FL in May!!

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[sweet2ndchance]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

This was my experience and what I do with my kids too. We don’t have an ADHD diagnosis, but like OPs DH, mine is up to his eyeballs in young sailors(and young officers too!!) who can’t function independently. About the only thing he demanded was that I teach them when, how, and why they should ask for help from others besides us. If procrastinating works for ‘em, great. If not, here’s how you can change your approach.

My ex-husband was up to his eyeballs in young airmen and women who couldn't function independently either and wanted him, as their superior, to be their mommy when their mommy couldn't be there. He also had to deal with mommies calling to check on their darling child and make sure they were "insert any number of odd and strange things to ask someone's boss if they could check to make sure their baby/boss's subordinate was doing".

For me, it is all about context and not just dropping the reins in their lap and walking away. Of course I would not let a child who seemed to enjoy the rush a little too much continue to cram at the last minute, even if they could get good grades that way. There is likely a mental health issue that needs to be addressed there, or at least ruled out, if they thrill seek that much. I also would not let a child slide down into the deep pit of despair over a bad grade or other consequence for their poor choices. Kids, in general, are resilient by nature and if my child is becoming emotionally troubled by the choices they make, then again, ime it is time to consult a doctor and find out why they are lacking natural child-like resilience.

OP, I totally get why it was hard to watch her make things difficult on herself. And to be honest, if she gets a good grade on this project, any advice for doing things differently next time still might fall on deaf ears. But I have no doubt that if she continues to wait until the last minute to do things, it will result in unexpected consequences for her eventually. And I also have no doubt you will be there to lovingly help her dust her self off after the fall and help her learn from her mistake to avoid future consequences.

Sixth grade is such a hard age to parent. They act and talk like big kids/almost teens and want to be handed more responsibility in most cases, like your dd not wanting your help, but they don't have everything as figured out as they think they do. And as hard as it is to give them more freedom to make their own mistakes, I really do believe that most kids, even kids with mental and emotional issues that are being treated, can learn from their mistakes when you are still there to be their safety net. It might not work for all kids, but you are the expert on your kid and it sounds like you've handled your kid's potential mistake beautifully so far. Even if you want to scream on the inside lol.

 

[EmseB]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I never had a college prof. or employer do this. They may have checked in to see where I was with something but assumed (rightly) I could break it down myself.

In the military it was, "You have 6 months to pass this board. Here are two binders full of everything you need to know. The education and training office is Building 123."

Or

"The promotion test is on September 3rd. Everything you need to know is in instruction 12-345."

You were usually allowed one failure and had to pass a certification on a second try. Promotion tests weren't a must-pass unless you were hitting high-year tenure.  The advantage being that all your buddies were probably taking the same tests around the same time so you could study together...but no one was getting study help from their mom. And most, IME anecdotally, did pass. It was kind of a big deal when someone failed to certify on their job or career coursework.

At work I was given projects and deadlines. It was up to me to work on them as I saw fit and complete them by the deadline, unless my boss was a super micromanager and that wasn't seen as a good trait in a middle manager. I would sometimes get asked, "Where are you with this?" but individual tasks within a project I was asked to do were on me to organize and complete.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, katilac said:

IF ONLY SOMEONE HAD TOLD HIM THIS BEFORE!! 

Right??? 🙃

[Sneezyone]

40 minutes ago, EmseB said:

In the military it was, "You have 6 months to pass this board. Here are two binders full of everything you need to know. The education and training office is Building 123."

Or

"The promotion test is on September 3rd. Everything you need to know is in instruction 12-345."

You were usually allowed one failure and had to pass a certification on a second try. Promotion tests weren't a must-pass unless you were hitting high-year tenure.  The advantage being that all your buddies were probably taking the same tests around the same time so you could study together...but no one was getting study help from their mom. And most, IME anecdotally, did pass. It was kind of a big deal when someone failed to certify on their job or career coursework.

At work I was given projects and deadlines. It was up to me to work on them as I saw fit and complete them by the deadline, unless my boss was a super micromanager and that wasn't seen as a good trait in a middle manager. I would sometimes get asked, "Where are you with this?" but individual tasks within a project I was asked to do were on me to organize and complete.

It’s not that I think there are kids who don’t need more support but that I think we don’t ask for enough accountability from young people because of our own fears about failure. There are a lot of ADHD kids in the service (it’s not disqualifying) and they STILL need to function independently, handle personnel snafus, submit paperwork, manage banking, etc. Somewhere between helping a 20yo adult/college student finish a paper on time, apply for a scholarship, schedule a job interview, or prep for an interview (yes, my uni offered this kind of support 20 years ago) and doing nothing is a healthy medium.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

5 hours ago, lauraw4321 said:

 

Ha, because I have my own issues? 🤪 Because it’s hard to watch someone do it the hard way? Because it’s my instinct to “help”? And maybe because I’m a bit of a control freak? 

Relate.

[marbel]

I can't possibly be the only person here who has ever walked out of a work meeting for a big project with an overall picture of the project, my role in it, and then a lists of action items with "due dates" before the next meeting to follow up on progress.  Not with micromanaging bosses, just big projects with lots of moving parts and lots of interim deadlines that had to be met.

WRT colleges and EF supports - I'm sure this varies.  My LD/ADD kid's school offers support in the form of groups, seminars, mentors and such. Some are aimed at first-gen students, some at kids with disabilities, some are for anyone who feels they need a little help with time management, managing multiple projects, etc.  I don't know if my other kid's school has similar things because we've never needed them. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by marbel

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, marbel said:

I can't possibly be the only person here who has ever walked out of a work meeting for a big project with an overall picture of the project, my role in it, and then a lists of action items with "due dates" before the next meeting to follow up on progress.  Not with micromanaging bosses, just big projects with lots of moving parts and lots of interim deadlines that had to be met.

WRT colleges and EF supports - I'm sure this varies.  LD/ADD kid's school offers support in the form of groups, seminars, mentors and such. Some are aimed at first-gen students, some at kids with disabilities, some are for anyone who feels they need a little help with time management, managing multiple projects, etc.  I don't know if my other kid's school has similar things because we've never needed them. 

 Sure, I have. Most of the time tho, the action items and benchmarks (for me) were written BY me in the 1-2 hr meeting and confirmed by me before I left the mtg. Did a parent send you due date reminders?

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It gets harder as the stakes get higher. We actually had a point where I asked a friend to go sit and watch her finish her paper. I'm like I can't watch, LOL.

This was me one time proctoring an assessment test for my kid. I was inwardly going, “OMG, How is he getting that one WRONG?!” Outside, face of stone. Inside, Krakatoa. 

[marbel]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

 Sure, I have. Most of the time tho, that lI st if action items and benchmarks (for me) was written BY me in the 1-2 hr meeting and confirmed by he before I left the mtg. tho. Did a parent send you due date reminders?

LOL, no. I wasn't talking about parents assisting/scaffolding their kids at work.  It was sort of an offshoot of when to stop scaffolding...  in work situations some scaffolding may be built in to projects - not because employees necessarily need it or anyone would even think of it as scaffolding - but to keep projects on track.   I am clearly not explaining myself well so should probably stop talking. 🙂

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, marbel said:

LOL, no. I wasn't talking about parents assisting/scaffolding their kids at work.  It was sort of an offshoot of when to stop scaffolding...  in work situations some scaffolding may be built in to projects - not because employees necessarily need it or anyone would even think of it as scaffolding - but to keep projects on track.   I am clearly not explaining myself well so should probably stop talking. 🙂

No worries. My phone typing sucks and is notoriously error ridden. 🥴

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

OP, I totally get why it was hard to watch her make things difficult on herself. And to be honest, if she gets a good grade on this project, any advice for doing things differently next time still might fall on deaf ears. But I have no doubt that if she continues to wait until the last minute to do things, it will result in unexpected consequences for her eventually. And I also have no doubt you will be there to lovingly help her dust her self off after the fall and help her learn from her mistake to avoid future consequences.

Yup. I remember telling a young person around here it was very important not to wait until the last minute to print a paper, thinking (for ex.), “I’ll swing by the library and print it on the way to class (the day it’s due)” Because there’s no cushion at that point and if the library ceiling just fell in from a water pipe leak, or all the computers are down at right that moment or whatever other catastrophe happens - you’re screwed. Well, like I said, some lessons have to be learned the hard way... 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yup. I remember telling a young person around here it was very important not to wait until the last minute to print a paper, thinking (for ex.), “I’ll swing by the library and print it on the way to class (the day it’s due)” Because there’s no cushion at that point and if the library ceiling just fell in from a water pipe leak, or all the computers are down at right that moment or whatever other catastrophe happens - you’re screwed. Well, like I said, some lessons have to be learned the hard way... 

Lord knows I had some Kinko’s runs and corrupted disks like this (back in the day)!! Live and learn—always have a back up!

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

This is actually a big part of the issue: colleges provide tons of resources for kids who struggle with the content of the coursework, but no resources at all for those who struggle with management of the coursework — not even for kids with diagnosed disabilities in this area.

When a student struggles with understanding the course material, no one says "OMG, you're X yrs old, you're in college now, you should understand this! Suck it up and just think harder!" The universal answer is to ask for help, go to office hours, get a tutor. There's no shame in asking for help or needing a tutor — that's actually the smart thing to do! Don't just sit there struggling alone, get help!

But when a student has no problem at all with the content of the course, but needs help with organizing/scheduling/prioritizing/managing the workload and staying on track, somehow that's shameful and embarrassing. "You're in college, you should have figured this out by now!" Maybe if the parent is willing to pay through the nose for a private EF Coach (assuming they can even find one), it might be acceptable to get help that way. But a parent who does exactly the same sort of EF coaching for free is helicoptering/hovering/controlling and that coddled kid will never learn to stand on his own two feet! 

IMO the biggest issue for people with EF deficits is not the fact that they need help with EF tasks, it's that they're often unwilling to ask for help, or even acknowledge the need for help, because that's seen as a sign of weakness. Conventional wisdom says that by a certain age, people should be able to manage EF tasks on their own — and if they can't it's because they're lazy, immature, or just not trying hard enough. So many people with EF issues either flounder and fail (and end up blaming their problems on other people) because they won't admit they need help, or they struggle like crazy and occasionally, apologetically ask for help while feeling like abject failures for even needing to ask. The fact that my kid understands what his EF issues are, willingly asks for and accepts help, and is grateful for it, is a total win in my book. The fact that colleges don't provide help in this area, even for kids with diagnosed EF deficits, is what's shameful.

IME - those same kids, don't ask for help because they're demeaned for not being able to manage/organize on their own.

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

IME - those same kids, don't ask for help because they're demeaned for not being able to manage/organize on their own.

Demeaned by whom and at what age/stage? Seriously curious. I’ve only ever seen it from my DHs perspective where resources are available but young people do not take advantage of them. This is a great source of frustration for him. I see a lot of emphasis on scaffolding (which is great, I do it too) but at what point does that/should it include how to obtain, use, advocate for non-parental supports?

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[sweet2ndchance]

13 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yup. I remember telling a young person around here it was very important not to wait until the last minute to print a paper, thinking (for ex.), “I’ll swing by the library and print it on the way to class (the day it’s due)” Because there’s no cushion at that point and if the library ceiling just fell in from a water pipe leak, or all the computers are down at right that moment or whatever other catastrophe happens - you’re screwed. Well, like I said, some lessons have to be learned the hard way... 

I had a programming class in college where you had to turn both an electronic version and a paper version of your code that was assigned for homework. The number of people who waited until they got to classroom to print out their code was almost funny. The panic that ensued when the printer ran out of toner or paper or the power went out or the printer just refused to work for one reason or another... you'd think the room was on fire or something lol. I will admit I did wait until class to print a few times but most of the time I was quite glad I had  a printer at home to print my paper copy on if for nothing else to avoid the extremely long printer queue from everyone else doing the same thing lol.

[EmseB]

16 minutes ago, marbel said:

I can't possibly be the only person here who has ever walked out of a work meeting for a big project with an overall picture of the project, my role in it, and then a lists of action items with "due dates" before the next meeting to follow up on progress.  Not with micromanaging bosses, just big projects with lots of moving parts and lots of interim deadlines that had to be met.

Maybe, but part of the meeting was us setting those things up and us figuring out when we had to finish X so that the other department could get it to complete Z.

And if I had those deadlines or benchmarks or taskers, I still had to come up with how to accomplish the tasks by the deadlines. I mean, at some point I had to schedule my own time even if someone broke down one project into smaller tasks and gave me deadlines. I had to figure out how to work on the project, then the other project I had going, make travel arrangements for my business trip next month, keep my inbox cleaned up, give input to daily briefings, etc. 

To go back to the OP, in 6th grade I can see a teacher setting multiple due dates for a paper: submit your topic and thesis sentence first, a week later I need your bibliography/sources, a week later I need your outline, a week later I need your rough draft, a week later your final draft. In college, a prof *should* be able to give a rubric and instructions with a due date and a person should be able to break that up into manageable chunks because that skill was taught in middle school/ high school. I think it's great if a college offers resources to help someone do all time management, but IMO, getting into college presupposes that you've learned at least somewhat how to organize and write a paper. I guess if part of the way you've learned to accomplish that is by asking a parent for help then it's not like I mind that personally. To each their own. It's just a strange idea to me that a parent would be doing that scheduling for their kid at 18-20yo. And I have never been a super organized person, FWIW. Managing time well does not come naturally to me, and I did need failures to see how my poor planning led to bad outcomes that stressed me out. 

[SKL]

23 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Lord knows I had some Kinko’s runs and corrupted disks like this (back in the day)!! Live and learn—always have a back up!

Ugh some things are better forgotten!  Now I'm gonna have a nightmare tonight ... if I ever get to sleep ....

And my kids are like, "what's Kinko's?"

[SKL]

I recall one nightmare project at work.  There was a whole team of people on the "project management team" charging $XXX per hour for making everyone input their timelines etc. over and over and presenting the Workplan at every client meeting.  This was for a proposal for tax services.  After all that we didn't get the job, LOL.  😛

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Huh??? We've had other people say their kids got some kind of EF coaching and my dd certainly did. She had weekly sessions her first year where the woman would sit her butt down for an hour and say where are your syllabii, where are you at, is everything in your tech, are you on track. They also had some very intentional let her fail, tough love stuff where they DIDN'T tell her everything. But she was not EVER getting content tutoring, mercy. She had a super high ACT and is a great student. She continues to have access to that support person for coaching and problem solving. 

 

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Not necessarily so at all. At my university, the appropriate support for content was the prof. or a sorority/fraternity/affinity group that had class notes from prior terms. If you wanted EF support, the student center tutors were the best place to go. This is the same support they offer athletes but you have to go when the assignment/syllabus is given, not when it’s due.

 

DS is a varsity athlete at a huge public university and has access to a multitude of free resources — none of which deal with EF issues. If you're a freshman football player struggling with a basic math class, you can go to the athlete "study table" 5 days a week and sit with a math tutor who will walk you through every problem, explain every mistake, show you which types of problems to focus on for tests, etc. But if you're an athlete who's been taking taking 300 & 400 level major courses since freshman year and getting the highest marks in the class, and you don't need help with course content or the kind of basic "study skills" tutors help with, you're SOL. 

DS's university even offers free "academic coaching," separate from tutoring, but when he explicitly asked for help with EF issues he was told "we don't do that."  He asked the Disability Office for help with the same tasks (which his documentation clearly shows he needs), and got the same answer: "We don't do that." He has no problem advocating for himself and asking for help — his current problem is that there are no supports for someone with EF issues there. He uses me for support because right now its his only option. Sure I'll be dead some day, but hopefully by then he'll be older and more experienced, he'll need less support, he'll (hopefully) have a supportive spouse or partner, and a career that capitalizes on his many strengths and mitigates some of his weaknesses. 

Also, the idea that a student with EF issues who can't manage college without some level of support will never be able to manage a job is BS. I've never had a job that involved having 5 or 6 different bosses at once, all of whom were replaced every four months by 5 new bosses, all of whom had totally different schedules, different ways of doing things, different management styles, different expectations, totally different ways of organizing their material, etc., and none of whom coordinated with each other in any way. And then add in a totally separate "job" (varsity sports) that involves lots of travel and tons of scheduling conflicts with other parts of the job. 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Corraleno

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

 

DS is a varsity athlete at a huge public university and has access to a multitude of free resources — none of which deal with EF issues. If you're a freshman football player struggling with a basic math class, you can go to the athlete "study table" 5 days a week and sit with a math tutor who will walk you through every problem, explain every mistake, show you which types of problems to focus on for tests, etc. But if you're an athlete who's been taking taking 300 & 400 level major courses since freshman year and getting the highest marks in the class, and you don't need help with course content or the kind of basic "study skills" tutors help with, you're SOL. 

DS's university even offers free "academic coaching," separate from tutoring, but when he explicitly asked for help with EF issues he was told "we don't do that."  He asked the Disability Office for help with the same tasks (which his documentation clearly shows he needs), and got the same answer: "We don't do that." He has no problem advocating for himself and asking for help — his current problem is that there are no supports for someone with EF issues there. He uses me for support because right now its his only option. Sure I'll be dead some day, but hopefully by then he'll need be older and more experienced, he'll need less support, he'll (hopefully) have a supportive spouse or partner, and a career that capitalizes on his many strengths and mitigates some of his weaknesses. 

Also, the idea that a student with EF issues who can't manage college without some level of support will never be able to manage a job is BS. I've never had a job that involved having 5 or 6 different bosses at once, all of whom were replaced every four months by 5 new bosses, all of whom had totally different schedules, different ways of doing things, different management styles, different expectations, totally different ways of organizing their material, etc., and none of whom coordinated with each other in any way. And then add in a totally separate "job" (varsity sports) that involves lots of travel and tons of scheduling conflicts with other parts of the job. 

 

I’m sorry your DS is having that experience. At my alma, many athletes, including some of my friends, received assistance with their more demanding course loads through academic support services. I don’t think high level college athletics, in general, are much of a proxy for anything, particularly the multitude of additional resources. My alma may be different in that regard because outside of class time, and rarely then during football season, the athletes were never seen. They are in different places, had a separate gym, dorm, and a separate set of tutors from other students.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

30 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Demeaned by whom and at what age/stage? Seriously curious.

Just like this:

21 minutes ago, EmseB said:

In college, a prof *should* be able to give a rubric and instructions with a due date and a person should be able to break that up into manageable chunks because that skill was taught in middle school/ high school. I think it's great if a college offers resources to help someone do all time management, but IMO, getting into college presupposes that you've learned at least somewhat how to organize and write a paper. I guess if part of the way you've learned to accomplish that is by asking a parent for help then it's not like I mind that personally. To each their own. It's just a strange idea to me that a parent would be doing that scheduling for their kid at 18-20yo.

A college student should have learned all the EF skills they need in middle school! Why would anyone still need help with EF skills by the time they're in college? That's really strange. 

Let's apply the same logic to other LDs:

A college student [with dyslexia] should have learned how to read quickly and spell correctly in middle school. It's such a strange idea that some college students still can't read quickly with good comprehension, or spell correctly, and need support for that.

A college student [with ADHD] should have learned to pay attention and focus in middle school. It's such a strange idea that there are college students who can't just focus and pay attention like everyone else. 

A college student [with auditory processing disorder] should have learned to process language better in middle school. It's such a strange idea that there are college students who can't just listen and understand everything they hear. 

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Just like this:

A college student should have learned all the EF skills they need in middle school! Why would anyone still need help with EF skills by the time they're in college? That's really strange. 

Let's apply the same logic to other LDs:

A college student [with dyslexia] should have learned how to read quickly and spell correctly in middle school. It's such a strange idea that some college students still can't read quickly with good comprehension, or spell correctly, and need support for that.

A college student [with ADHD] should have learned to pay attention and focus in middle school. It's such a strange idea that there are college students who can't just focus and pay attention like everyone else. 

A college student [with auditory processing disorder] should have learned to process language better in middle school. It's such a strange idea that there are college students who can't just listen and understand everything they hear. 

Huh, I’m not sure how saying what’s typically expected of college students is demeaning. Should there be no expectations for college level performance? College isn’t just an academic level/exercise, is it? Should it be? If supports are needed, I think schools should provide them. At my uni, auditory and learning supports are available. Maybe it’s just a matter of a poor fit for the student? I do think that students, by or in college, with challenges should develop or find accommodations that make it possible for them to read and spell adequately enough to write an error free business letter tho. I see that as life-prep.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Wheres Toto]

6 hours ago, marbel said:

Even college professors do this, to some degree.  I've seen syllabi with big term papers broken down with dates for research, dates to stop researching and start writing, dates to have a first draft done, etc. This is for all students, not just students with accommodations for EF issues or whatever.  Even in college they are still learning. The papers are longer, the stakes are higher. It's just continuing to build the foundation for future success. 

At every place I've worked, big projects are broken down with achievable objectives at points along the way, with employees reporting progress to management at set times. I've never been on a big project that was just... "ok, folks this has to be ready to roll out in 6 months, see you then, have it ready!"  Well, maybe the CEO says that, but then the managers... manage it.

The last place I worked there were employees that their entire job was to manage the project deadlines - Project Managers.   

This is basically what Microsoft Project was invented for. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Demeaned by whom and at what age/stage? Seriously curious. I’ve only ever seen it from my DHs perspective where resources are available but young people do not take advantage of them. This is a great source of frustration for him. I see a lot of emphasis on scaffolding (which is great, I do it too) but at what point does that/should it include how to obtain, use, advocate for non-parental supports?

child, teen, young adult - you'd be surprised.  the demeaning treatment, sometimes teachers, definitely peers. even admin.

you remove scaffolding when it's no longer needed.  it's a process, not over night.

and it is possible to get it written into a student's "needs" in college.  My friend (kindergarten teacher) pushed for it for her granddaughter when she was in kindergarten.  she had university provided scaffolding when she was in college. (I don't remember her specific disability, it was some type of LD)  - the help to schedule/plan what she was doing, so she could do it.

Edited November 13, 2019 by gardenmom5

[EmseB]

24 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Just like this:

A college student should have learned all the EF skills they need in middle school! Why would anyone still need help with EF skills by the time they're in college? That's really strange. 

Let's apply the same logic to other LDs:

A college student [with dyslexia] should have learned how to read quickly and spell correctly in middle school. It's such a strange idea that some college students still can't read quickly with good comprehension, or spell correctly, and need support for that.

A college student [with ADHD] should have learned to pay attention and focus in middle school. It's such a strange idea that there are college students who can't just focus and pay attention like everyone else. 

A college student [with auditory processing disorder] should have learned to process language better in middle school. It's such a strange idea that there are college students who can't just listen and understand everything they hear. 

Nope, not equivalent at all, but also probably the most malicious way to interpret what I was saying. Everyone in college or university has to intake information and give output in some form or fashion. A lot of what goes on there is dependent on life and study skills one has learned through middle school and high school. It is higher order thinking, learning, digesting, and analyzing with significant requirements for writing papers and independent studying for big exams. Even if one needs a different method to ingest the info or provide the output, it still has to happen within a certain time frame because semesters are limited. College prep happens in middle and high school, that's just a fact. It isn't demeaning to say that a college-ready student should be able to produce a term paper without the same level of teacher guidance as a middle schooler. That goes for people with APD, dyslexia, whatever. I had a friend who was legally blind. When she got to college, she had to produce college-level work regardless of her disability and it was on her to get the necessary accomodations because her parents lived 1000 miles away.

But, like I said in my previous post, if mom is organizing one's time and due dates and projects for them as the necessary accommodation, it doesn't affect me in any way or other students. More power to them for figuring out a system that works to get through college. I disagree that is the best solution for long term success, but not my kid so it doesn't really matter what I think about it, and my oldest is a whopping 12 years old, so what do I know anyway?

But I suspect that some of us probably fundamentally disagree about the purpose of university and how it should function, so we're probably talking apples and oranges here to some extent.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Huh, I’m not sure how saying what’s typically expected of college students is demeaning. Should there be no expectations for college level performance? College isn’t just an academic level/exercise, is it? Should it be? If supports are needed, I think schools should provide them. At my uni, auditory and learning supports are available. Maybe it’s just a matter of a poor fit for the student? I do think that students, by or in college, with challenges should develop or find accommodations that make it possible for them to read and spell adequately enough to write an error free business letter tho. I see that as life-prep.

At DS's university, students with ADHD and/or dyslexia get extra time on tests in a quiet location, and those with dyslexia or dyspraxia are also allowed to use a keyboard for exams rather than handwriting. Depending on severity, some dyslexics can be exempt from the foreign language requirement. Students with other disabilities may be allowed to have a note-taker, an ASL interpreter, use audio books, etc. Everyone acknowledges that these are brain-based disabilities, and students with these issues deserve to have the supports they need.

The problem is that EF deficits are also an actual brain-based disability, and yet not only are there often no accommodations for those, there is still a stigma attached to needing EF supports beyond a certain "socially acceptable" age, in a way that does not exist for other LDs. We (as a society) are finally coming to acknowledge that learning disabilities like dyslexia, ADHD, SPD, etc., are life-long issues — but apparently EF deficits should just magically disappear when a student turns 18 or enters college. And God forbid a student with EF issues, who gets no support from their university, gets help from a parent! How pathetic, won't they ever grow up?

I'm not sure what your comment about "poor fit" refers to. DS chose his university because it's top 10 for his major, and he is excelling academically. Last year, as a freshman, two of his professors asked permission to use some of his assignments as examples in future classes. One was a 300 level class he took in his very first semester and the other was a 400 level class taught by a prof with a reputation as a really tough grader. His grades in those classes were 98-100%. That's the level of academic work he's capable of, and he wants to be (and deserves to be) at a university with that level of challenge. The fact that he has multiple LDs should not limit his options, and if the university doesn't provide the support he deserves, then I'll make sure he gets it somewhere else — even if that "somewhere else" is me.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Corraleno

[Sneezyone]

34 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

At DS's university, students with ADHD and/or dyslexia get extra time on tests in a quiet location, and those with dyslexia or dyspraxia are also allowed to use a keyboard for exams rather than handwriting. Depending on diversity, some dyslexics can be exempt from the foreign language requirement. Students with other disabilities may be allowed to have a note-taker, an ASL interpreter, use audio books, etc. Everyone acknowledges that these are brain-based disabilities, and students with these issues deserve to have the supports they need.

The problem is that EF deficits are also an actual brain-based disability, and yet not only are there often no accommodations for those, there is still a stigma attached to needing EF supports beyond a certain "socially acceptable" age, in a way that does not exist for other LDs. We (as a society) are finally coming to acknowledge that learning disabilities like dyslexia, ADHD, SPD, etc., are life-long issues — but apparently EF deficits should just magically disappear when a student turns 18 or enters college. And God forbid a student with EF issues, who gets no support from their university, gets help from a parent! How pathetic, won't they ever grow up?

I'm not sure what your comment about "poor fit" refers to. DS chose his university because it's top 10 for his major, and he is excelling academically. Last year, as a freshman, two of his professors asked permission to use some of his assignments as examples in future classes. One was a 300 level class he took in his very first semester and the other was a 400 level class taught by a prof with a reputation as a really tough grader. His grades in those classes were 98-100%. That's the level of academic work he's capable of, and he wants to be (and deserves to be) at a university with that level of challenge. The fact that he has multiple LDs should not limit his options, and if the university doesn't provide the support he deserves, then I'll make sure he gets it somewhere else — even if that "somewhere else" is me.

My comment about poor fit was with respect to the supports that are offered, not the academic level. I do see a difference between providing reasonable accommodations that change how information is delivered/output vs. accommodations that actually do the planning work tho. I understand that is not be what you’re describing but I do see a possibility that people will ask for that. Helping a student develop a timeline and sending them on their way seems like a reasonable accommodation to me tho. I simply think college-age students should be in position to recognize those deficits and obtain help without parents running interference.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Everyone in college or university has to intake information and give output in some form or fashion. A lot of what goes on there is dependent on life and study skills one has learned through middle school and high school. It is higher order thinking, learning, digesting, and analyzing with significant requirements for writing papers and independent studying for big exams. Even if one needs a different method to ingest the info or provide the output, it still has to happen within a certain time frame because semesters are limited. College prep happens in middle and high school, that's just a fact. It isn't demeaning to say that a college-ready student should be able to produce a term paper without the same level of teacher guidance as a middle schooler. That goes for people with APD, dyslexia, whatever. I had a friend who was legally blind. When she got to college, she had to produce college-level work regardless of her disability and it was on her to get the necessary accomodations because her parents lived 1000 miles away.

Like many other highly intelligent people who happen to have EF deficits, DS has zero problem with learning, analyzing, and higher order thinking. He doesn't need "middle school level" guidance to produce a research paper — he's been writing college-level papers for years. He is more than well prepared for the level of academic work in college. But he has a brain-based disability that makes executive function tasks like estimating, organizing, prioritizing, scheduling, and remembering a large number of assignments in a short period of time, within a very complicated scheduled that includes intermittent out of state travel, difficult. It's patronizing to state that work "still has to happen within a certain time frame because semesters are limited" as if that's somehow news to someone with EF issues. Of course they know that — fitting it all into that time frame is exactly what they need help with. 

 

5 minutes ago, EmseB said:

 I had a friend who was legally blind. When she got to college, she had to produce college-level work regardless of her disability and it was on her to get the necessary accomodations because her parents lived 1000 miles away.

I'm not sure what your point is here. DS is clearly producing "college-level work regardless of his disability" — that is not the problem. He has also done everything he could to advocate for himself in order to "get the necessary accommodations because his parent [me] lives 2400 miles away." The problem is that his university doesn't offer the accommodations he needs. And I suspect that the primary reason for that is that many people at the university — like many people in this thread — don't understand that real brain-based EF issues do not get "fixed" in high school and don't magically disappear at age 18. I'm glad that we, as a society, no longer treat dyslexics like they're stupid, or people with ADHD like they're just lazy or sloppy or not trying hard enough to pay attention. Hopefully someday the stigma attached to EF deficits will also go away. 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Solely for the purpose of not leaving @Corraleno punching into the air here alone, I will add my two bits:

I am also helping a college student with EF issues and ADHD to get through college. He's my third son, he is highly intelligent and gifted in his field, and there's not one single EF skill that he has not mastered.

He just can't do them all at once.

I help him schedule out the pacing of his major papers and products, but I don't have to tell him *how* to research, write a rough draft, revise it, cite it properly, add his bibliography. I don't have to help him with a single idea or a thesis. I don't help him with project concepts or execution, although again, I will suggest the pacing for the steps that HE tells me are necessary. He can cook, clean, hold down a job (and excel), do his laundry, iron, perform maintenance on his car, successfully navigate relationships, communicate with professors, see to his own health care appointments, maintain good personal habits...he has learned it ALL. He learned most of if it years ago, at the developmentally appropriate time (or shortly thereafter). 

And I'm the one who taught him.

But college requires all of this at once. He has to hold down a part-time job while he's there (including a sometimes unpredictable schedule), and his major demands large amounts of studio time (which is hard to schedule, for anyone). He has a special diet and a physical disability, and he does not have a neurotypical brain. I know this, because again, I have always been here...I have known since he was a preschooler that he is not neurotypical and he needs a lot of support, but he is also highly intelligent and capable; we never do come up against a skill or concept that he can't learn. But when it all gets overwhelming, he benefits from someone asking him, "So what is the next thing? What is today's list, and where do you want to start?" He will take a deep breath, and sort it. 

If my helping him - at the level of going over a giant whiteboard in the schoolroom every evening, and helping him draft a plan for short, medium, and long-term projects, and excusing him from his usual cooking and cleaning chores (temporarily), and being available for a few hours in the evenings to help him keep track of his homework until he gets into his predictable groove - if all of that means that he gets to EARN his 3.9 GPA, enjoy college, get that degree, successfully network for his career...

then yeah. I am helping him. And you know what, he's got a lot of friends who struggle, too. A lot of first generation college students, a lot of art students who struggle with the academic side of classes, and a LOT of classmates on various kinds of drugs to cope. They don't exercise, sleep, or eat healthfully. At least half of them will not be in college after this first year. My son will be, and he will be healthy. He will have picked up more skills, and I will probably be helping a lot less, with each passing year.

And his career life will be nothing like college. He will have to work hard, be creative, and collaborate, but the whole scenario is more simple - no more job plus unrelated classes plus academics plus studio time. His career will be one big thing with a lot of aspects, which works for his way of thinking. His father and brother are the same kind, and are excelling in skilled labor. This son is the first of this "type" in the family to go to college, and to manage many different things at once. He doesn't work harder than his father and brother, but their lot is straightforward.

My whiteboard and daily conversations help make college life into one big thing with a lot of aspects, instead of feeling so fragmented and overwhelming in his mind.

This is accommodation.

1. A writing lab at school wouldn't help him. He's a terrific writer. He does not need to learn how to write.

2. A math lab at school wouldn't help him. He has no problems with math.

3. A study group wouldn't help him. He enjoys discussions in class, and makes friends easily, but while he is studying he uses his own methods. They are more effective, because again, he mastered them long ago. He has found that study groups tend to operate on a lower intellectual level, at least during this first year.

4. A scheduled weekly visit for some oversight and encouragement for first generation or ADHD students wouldn't help him. (His brother's university had that.) He needs daily help, from someone who wants to hear about what he's learned and who can recognize his big wins and successes, while still noticing where he's starting to put something off or get overwhelmed. At the moment, I'm the best candidate for this. And after college, he will not need me to help with his career.

So I hope I have illuminated the EF situation in some way, for anyone who is confused. I've described a student who HAS all the skills and who HAS all the intelligence, who just needs help with too many irons in the fire. College is not too many irons in the fire for everyone. But it is for him. His career and post-college life will not have too many irons in the fire. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

OK, Coralleno was typing the exact same thing. :)

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I’m sure this is university/college dependent but my goal is to find just this sort of place for my oldest, one with lots of cooperative/collaborative learning. She is getting better at EF but is not yet *there*. I think it’s a helpful tip to look at the space/ furnishings to see how well it accommodates meetings and group study. I always did this without thinking but it deserves more explicit attention. I will mention it to DD, for sure, on our next round of tours. Headed to FL in May!!

If you want secular (and have the money) you could look at the Colleges That Change Lives list. But yeah, just keep looking. She visited several times (all without me), and I'm pretty sure she made sure to visit the student services section and also to TALK WITH A STUDENT, getting the real word on the street. 

We've had so many good stories, it doesn't have to be all bad. People sometimes do well with a small department within a large university. We have found dorm accommodations to be more of a hurdle than we had anticipated. We were thinking academics and not dorms. Reality is, this school just has sucky dorms, and a better dorm set up (for her) would make her experience a lot better. I've seen schools with better set ups, but they were like $60k a year, lol. Reality bites, lol. 

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 Sure, I have. Most of the time tho, the action items and benchmarks (for me) were written BY me in the 1-2 hr meeting and confirmed by me before I left the mtg. Did a parent send you due date reminders?

Bosses did, and their bosses sent reminders to them. The vast majority of people need to be reminded of things and kept on track. That's why managers and project managers exist. 

 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

Bosses did, and their bosses sent reminders to them. The vast majority of people need to be reminded of things and kept on track. That's why managers and project managers exist. 

 

I think occasional reminders are not unusual from the person or persons ultimately responsible for the work being done. Parental reminders are not. In the event the frequency of reminders is excessive, one would also expect to no longer be employed.

[EmseB]

7 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

He needs daily help, from someone who wants to hear about what he's learned and who can recognize his big wins and successes, while still noticing where he's starting to put something off or get overwhelmed.[/b] At the moment, I'm the best candidate for this. And after college, he will not need me to help with his career.

So I hope I have illuminated the EF situation in some way, for anyone who is confused. I've described a student who HAS all the skills and who HAS all the intelligence, who just needs help with too many irons in the fire. College is not too many irons in the fire for everyone. But it is for him. His career and post-college life will not have too many irons in the fire. 

After reading this entire post, I don't know how what you're talking about would be able to be done by someone who doesn't know your son intimately. I don't know how someone who can't read him or know this stuff about him in detail would be able to do what you're doing. Or at least, the bolded sounds a lot like what people pay a life coach or even a therapist per hour to do for them and that's with taking weeks or months to develop a good relationship. But maybe I'm incorrect and still reading it wrong.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I think occasional reminders are not unusual from the person or persons ultimately responsible for the work being done. Parental reminders for neurotypical students are not. In the event the frequency of reminders is excessive, one would also expect to no longer be employed.

I once worked as a back office medical assistant for a general practitioner who was definitely the absent-minded professor type. He needed excessive reminders. It was almost comical, how many reminders he needed, and how frequently. He didn't expect to lose his job because he was the boss. It was his business, and we worked for him. He only hired people who would help him remember stuff. Not all the employees, but one in the front office and two in the back office. Duties were clearly outlined, and included specifics like "Don't let Dr. M leave the room without XYZ. He will not remember. You are responsible for this!"

My best friend is married to a very successful lawyer who has autism. She worked as his secretary for years, until she quit to homeschool their children. Someone else was hired for the very specific job description of keeping track of more than a secretary usually keeps track of, because the boss was not neurotypical.

As far as my bolded additions to your quote, surely you know that another definition of disability might be "unusual." However, I disagree that it's so unusual for college students to need parental reminders, at least for first year and/or first generation college students. It's a new thing to learn, and they will learn it.

As far as adults at work: The onus is on every adult to find a career and job at which they can succeed. But being neurotypical and ordinarily abled are not requirements for employment or success.

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I think occasional reminders are not unusual from the person or persons ultimately responsible for the work being done. Parental reminders are not. In the event the frequency of reminders is excessive, one would also expect to no longer be employed.

So who do you think sends these reminders to college students? Because most professors don't. And the so-called "academic coaches" won't. And the assigned Disability Advisor won't. So that leaves a paid EF coach or a parent. Are reminders from paid coaches OK? But reminders from a free EF coach, who just happens to be a parent, is unacceptable and just plain pathetic? 

As LSB very eloquently explained, there is a HUGE difference between having A job with A boss and multiple projects, and having 5 bosses with dozens of unrelated assignments and projects for each, which change every 4 months, while also juggling many other responsibilities. There is also a difference between being an 18 yr old college freshman and being a 22 or 24 year old employee.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

After reading this entire post, I don't know how what you're talking about would be able to be done by someone who doesn't know your son intimately. I don't know how someone who can't read him or know this stuff about him in detail would be able to do what you're doing. Or at least, the bolded sounds a lot like what people pay a life coach or even a therapist per hour to do for them and that's with taking weeks or months to develop a good relationship. But maybe I'm incorrect and still reading it wrong.

 

Well, my daughter-in-law is a special needs teacher in a high school. This is basically what she does for her students, in addition to her work of writing their education plans and working with their teachers. It's kind of a new field, and she has special training, to be able to do it for children who are not her own and whom she just met. Her mentors and college professors hope to see such programs expanded into more high schools and also into universities.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

So who do you think sends these reminders to college students? Because most professors don't. And the so-called "academic coaches" won't. And the assigned Disability Advisor won't. So that leaves a paid EF coach or a parent. Are reminders from paid coaches OK? But reminders from a free EF coach, who just happens to be a parent, is unacceptable and just plain pathetic? 

As LSB very eloquently explained, there is a HUGE difference between having A job with A boss and multiple projects, and having 5 bosses with dozens of unrelated assignments and projects for each, which change every 4 months, while also juggling many other responsibilities. There is also a difference between being an 18 yr old college freshman and being a 22 or 24 year old employee.

I don’t know what kinds of services are available at every institution. As I said, I think it’s reasonable for a university to help a student make a plan. I also think it’s reasonable for students to use that plan to, on their own, create reminders in an app like remind, phone alarms/calendar, physical planner or other system. I am not opposed to people organizing their lives to address deficits. If you can establish a business and have employees to cater to those needs, great. My objection is to parents doing that work for college-going adults vs. students learning to develop systems, obtain supports on their own.