Scout Parents: Can you give me your opinion? CROSS POSTED

[mom2scouts]

I'm cross posting this here because I know there's several very active Scout parents who hang out on this board. I'd like your thoughts.

My son has been diligently working on his Eagle project for two years this week. During that time, five Scouts from our troop have finished their Eagle. The projects have been things like building bat houses and putting them up, building a few benches and installing them somewhere,  making feral cat shelters, building a bridge over a small ravine, or making dog beds for the shelter. These projects all take a few days of actual construction and most of them are funded by the recipient.

My son decided to do a project directly related to his major interest and career goals. The non-profit group gave him a list of projects they needed done and he picked one. As a non-profit, they said they felt it was important that the person doing the project had the responsibility of funding the project. He spent months and months raising money and getting donations of both money and materials worth about $1800. He worked to earn more money for the project. He learned some basic CAD so he could design the project and determine all the supplies needed. He then spent lots of time preparing things in advance for the actual work days and finding people to help. He met with the non-profit several times about some changes. The project has a few tricky things and even the recipient has started saying things like, "This is a new one for us! We've never had an Eagle project this complicated." His Sea Scout leader told him, "I can't believe this project! It you decide to do Quartermaster, I'm going to give you a really easy project and not let you do anything like this!" His project already has almost *800* hours of work and he's not quite finished. He needs maybe one or two more work days.

Here's my question: Would you give him credit on his transcript for something like Project Management? This was suggested to me by an Eagle Scout and a homeschooling parent in our troop. I'm usually of the opinion that homeschoolers shouldn't double dip to add more to the transcript, but this project goes so far beyond what most kids are doing for Eagle projects I feel that he should get more credit for it.  Thoughts?

[Loowit]

It is not something I would have thought about doing, but I think it is a good idea.  It sounds like he has earned it and worked very hard. 

[Arctic Bunny]

I’m not a scouting parent, but it seems like he’s taught himself more skills than some full credit classes!

[Carol in Cal.]

Absolutely.  Maybe some CAD self-study credits, too.

[SKL]

Might include it as a non-credit item if that is an option.

My thought is that it might appear to the prospective employer/university that you are double-dipping / padding the transcript even if you are not.  Putting it on a transcript does not show how much he worked IMO.  I also think it could make the reader wonder whether anything else on the transcript is propped up by extracurricular work.

I assume kids in B&M high school in your community do not get extracurriculars included on their transcripts, no matter how many hours they spend on them.

Edited November 12, 2019 by SKL

[mom2scouts]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Might include it as a non-credit item if that is an option.

My thought is that it might appear to the prospective employer/university that you are double-dipping / padding the transcript even if you are not.  Putting it on a transcript does not show how much he worked IMO.  I also think it could make the reader wonder whether anything else on the transcript is propped up by extracurricular work.

I assume kids in B&M high school in your community do not get extracurriculars included on their transcripts, no matter how many hours they spend on them.

Students in our local high school *do* get credit for extracurriculars. Things like band, choir, dance, or sports go on their transcripts as graded courses in fine arts, music, or PE and are listed on the extracurricular activities resume too. When my oldest was in public high school, he had a job at the school fixing the lighting and sound equipment from the auditorium and he was in a vocational ed. program in electronics. He spent almost the entire year in class working on things for his job. He got a vocational certificate, an A in electronics on his transcript, and he was getting paid for the work and nobody thought there was a thing wrong with that because he was learning the skills. I should also note that he was not going into the trades, but went to a top 50 university.

If I didn't use it as a transcript item, how would I show how far above and beyond he went on his project? Apparently, the average Eagle project takes about 150 hours and he's doing more than five times that. I would like to show that somewhere.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would.  He's put in well over the hours required for a credit (180 hours for a high school credit).  He still has plenty of hours left over that he doesn't get "credit" for but which still applied to his Eagle project. 

[katilac]

I wouldn't, simply because it will stand out so much more as an extracurricular on its own. I feel you about wanting him to get credit for doing such a complicated project, but there's really no great advantage to having one more school credit. If his Scout leader writes a college recommendation, you could tell him that those specifics would be great to include. 

2 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

 If I didn't use it as a transcript item, how would I show how far above and beyond he went on his project? Apparently, the average Eagle project takes about 150 hours and he's doing more than five times that. I would like to show that somewhere.

I would think it's actually a lot easier to show that on his EC list rather than his transcript, which would simple state "Project Management, 1 credit, A." 

[rocassie]

I would probably count all the learning of the CAD program and other computer related components as an individual study.  However, those hours learning the programs, I would not count towards the project.  In my high school, we also had vocational training programs where the students took classes and had internships outside of school (some during school hours as well as outside of school hours) and still received class credit and a grade.  One student did earn his Eagle Scout project using school equipment  during his shop class.  Each student had an "independent project" during their 2nd year of shop that they had to plan, create, and install.  This student did "double dip", and received a lot of recognition for mastering his skills to create a wonderful project to benefit the community.

[mom2scouts]

1 hour ago, Margaret in CO said:

Unfortunately, troops cannot add to the requirements of an Eagle project. If a youth wants to object, he could, and would win. I agree with the theory, as we had a kid do that very thing--daddy wrote a check because the Scout did not want to fundraise. It rubbed me raw, but as district adv chair, I have to accept it. 

We also have a Scout who had his parents write a check and then he did a project that took two days. His project was done in two months from start to finish. This is the kind of stuff that makes me want to give my son more credit somehow. They can both say they are Eagle Scouts, but what they did to earn that isn't even close.

[DawnM]

I gave my sons some credit for their Eagle projects, but I don't remember what I counted it as. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by DawnM

[Bambam]

I'm not a scout parent, but I would. I had one kid put in bunches and bunches of hours studying for Food Nutrition Quiz bowl for 4-H.  I had her read a few health magazines and counted that as a Health credit. She also had 4-H projects listed as an extracurricular. I saw nothing wrong with that.  She put in way more hours for that quiz and it showed in the state contest. 

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

My state does not allow those ecs to be on the pubic high school transcript.  ... private youth orchestra, swim club, preolympic club gymnastics meets, professional or amateur acting or music performance w/paying audience, All State anything- none of that is on the high school transcript. There is a state law on what can be brought in for credit and none of these activities meet the definition.  Only 5 1/2 credits can be brought in, which most people use for math and AP science via an online accredited provider or Dual Enrollment from an accredited provider.   Even Driver's Ed does not qualilfy, and that's run thru the school district continuing ed.  If its the custom in your state, go with it.

Right - but kids are taking band as a public school class, and that counts on their transcript. Same with orchestra, chorus, yearbook, etc at a lot of schools. 

[Soror]

I vote it is an EC, not a credit, looks like double dipping to me too.

[vonfirmath]

32 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

The ec is not a class here.  So for example, a band or voice student here would have band/select chorus on his transcript as a class,  but the ecs could be  some combo of :

private regional Youth Orchestra admitted by audition

 personal ensemble - performer, promo manager, business manger, founder

,All County/All State/All Eastern and Honors Band experiences gained by audition

Community Theater pit orchestra experience gained by audition plus any awards earned

 any other awards and appearances requiring audition

participation or origination of a program giving free private lessons to underserved youth

service to the Vets at funerals and Holidays and other events

service to seniors by performing at the senior home as part of a personal ensemble

Actors will have Drama as a class if it is at the level they can benefit from - mostly the child actors here don't take the class or participate in the school productions as they are well beyond the level of the production.  The paid roles and the unpaid roles are listed as ecs. 

Club swim is an ec even at Jr Olympic level.  Here no sport of any level outside school can be substituted for PE credit.

It can be confusing, because in Title 1 and wealthy public districts here, Orchestra is a class open to every student.  Middle class and diverse districts don't have the funding so their students must travel and join a regional private youth orchestra via audition, and pay the fees.  Same for marching band.

As noted in previous post, OP should follow local custom.  

 

 

Here they have orchestra at ONE school. If you don't happen to be zoned for that school it's not an option

 

And yes, band is a class. But other activities done out of school hours with your instrument is not given class credit. (Community orchestra, playing at church, etc) And the performances, etc done for band are REQUIRED, not optional. They become a grade.

Edited November 13, 2019 by vonfirmath

[katilac]

13 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Right - but kids are taking band as a public school class, and that counts on their transcript. Same with orchestra, chorus, yearbook, etc at a lot of schools. 

In my experience, if they are getting credit for band or yearbook, they are taking an actual class in band or yearbook during the school day. They are not getting credit for their zillion hours of practice or marching, they are getting credit for the class itself. If an EC does not have a corresponding class, no credit is given. The exception I have seen is sports, where some schools give a PE credit even if everything takes place after school. 

This may not be the case everywhere, but I do think most schools have an actual class for ECs that give credit. What say you, other posters? 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

In my experience, if they are getting credit for band or yearbook, they are taking an actual class in band or yearbook during the school day. They are not getting credit for their zillion hours of practice or marching, they are getting credit for the class itself. If an EC does not have a corresponding class, no credit is given. The exception I have seen is sports, where some schools give a PE credit even if everything takes place after school. 

This may not be the case everywhere, but I do think most schools have an actual class for ECs that give credit. What say you, other posters? 

But that was my point - that since she is homeschooling what is and isn't a class is up to her. She can have a class on project management or computer assisted design or what not, just like a public school can have a class on photography or band. 

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

But that was my point - that since she is homeschooling what is and isn't a class is up to her. She can have a class on project management or computer assisted design or what not, just like a public school can have a class on photography or band. 

Right, it just didn't sound like that's what they did. I do think that labeling it project management and connecting it to the Scout project can make it seem lesser, or like double-dipping. Fair or not, most people aren't going to think twice if a SCHOOL lists band class and then the student lists band EC, but they may look askance at a homeschooler doing the same thing. 

If I went this route, I'd probably pull out specific aspects that weren't spent directly on the project. Like he learned CAD to help with the project, you could list a CAD course with zero reference to the project. 

I tend to the over-cautious side of things. If my kids have an amazing EC, I don't want to risk it coming out in conversation with a department head or honors program that we also gave class credit for it. I think a class makes it look less student-led, even if that's not true, and makes them think less of the project, even if the student still has more hours in the project than most after subtracting class hours. Just listing the class isn't going to amaze anyone, so why risk the conversation not going the right way if my kid has plenty of credits? I think we get tangled up in wanting our kids to 'get credit' for working so hard, but what does that mean? An academic credit is not the same as 'getting credit' for going above and beyond on a project. It's just that, an academic credit, floating in a sea of other academic credits. What is the benefit to the student of listing it as a credit? Also, if he did the extra hours of his own initiative, I think it's worth more to him (personally) to congratulate him on a job well done and not bring in the idea that you shouldn't do more than you get 'credit' for. He knew the requirements for Eagle Scout and chose to exceed them, let him be proud of that! 

If, for whatever reason, he did not have a full slate of credits for that year, it definitely might be to his benefit to list it as a credit. If I did that, I would pull out CAD and other things that he learned, and not any time spent working on the project. So if he did some research on how to recruit and train volunteers, I would count that time, but not time spent actually recruiting those volunteers. I would probably name the class something more specific, like CAD versus project management. It keeps a sharper line between class and project. If the class does come up in conversation, there is no need to connect it to becoming an Eagle Scout. 

TL; DR: I don't think there's anything wrong with giving him credit for it, I just doubt that it's going to be of benefit to him (and there's a slight chance it might not look as good as just leaving it as an EC). 

[SKL]

Another thought - not sure if this is relevant today or not ... but I taught myself lots of things that didn't go on my transcript.  Like playing the piano.  I played it for at least an hour a day all through high school.  Got no credit at all.  My brother taught himself a ton about computer programing and also read college textbooks for fun.  None of that went on the transcript.  Not to mention various student jobs and charity work.  Even student clubs etc. didn't go on the transcript.  My sister's Model UN team, which went all the way to the Hague for its final competition?  No credit.  Even though that activity involved quite a bit of academic learning?  Nope.

I think this question depends on whether OP's son is on the same footing as his peers as far as transcripts go.  What about a kid who got his master level in martial arts?  Or someone who helped his parents plan and build an addition on the house?

I also agree that having it as a separate item on the resume is better anyway.  Who really looks or asks about practical skills stuff on a high school transcript?  Anyone ever ask you what you did in high school art class or wood shop?  Me neither.

[Penelope]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

Another thought - not sure if this is relevant today or not ... but I taught myself lots of things that didn't go on my transcript.  Like playing the piano.  I played it for at least an hour a day all through high school.  Got no credit at all.  My brother taught himself a ton about computer programing and also read college textbooks for fun.  None of that went on the transcript.  Not to mention various student jobs and charity work.  Even student clubs etc. didn't go on the transcript.  My sister's Model UN team, which went all the way to the Hague for its final competition?  No credit.  Even though that activity involved quite a bit of academic learning?  Nope.

I think this question depends on whether OP's son is on the same footing as his peers as far as transcripts go.  What about a kid who got his master level in martial arts?  Or someone who helped his parents plan and build an addition on the house?

I also agree that having it as a separate item on the resume is better anyway.  Who really looks or asks about practical skills stuff on a high school transcript?  Anyone ever ask you what you did in high school art class or wood shop?  Me neither.

Agree with this. What does a credit like that even mean? And if a university looks further into it at a course description, then it just looks like you are giving credit for an Eagle project which is part of an extracurricular and is also listed again separately as an honor/award. 
 

I can’t think of another award on the same level as Eagle that would receive high school credit. 

[mamakelly]

I’m an Eagle Scout parent and a current parent of a Tenderfoot. I was homeschooling my Eagle Scout when he earned the award and I did not put anything related the Eagle Scout award on his transcript. Several boys in his troop made Eagle around the same time, none of them got any school credit for it. It’s an extra curricular and shouldn’t be counted for school. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by mamakelly

[Miss Tick]

I don't think the OP is trying to give ds credit for getting his Eagle Scout award. She is saying that he is putting in such an incredible (excessive?) amount of time (800 hrs vs a more typical 1-200 hrs), that perhaps she should carve out a portion to count as a class. So if his project was to design and build a footbridge across a small ravine on a nature path, but in order to better blend with the surrounding community he built something inspired by I.M.Pei and Frank Gehry and all those glass and stainless panels required that he learn enough civil engineering and structural mechanics to ensure sufficient integrity for a 75 year predicted life-spam and blah, blah, blah.  So he did the normal, obtain approval, source supplies, organize build days and complete the project to the satisfaction of the sponsors, but also put in 600 more hours of work than is typical. I don't think pulling out a Carnegie Credit worth of hours (~180) is going to be problematic. The course description wouldn't need to reference the Eagle Project at all, or could say, "in support of x, Jonny self-taught..."