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Choir members... I need your advice.


PrincessMommy
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Do we have other hive members who are members of choirs - church or community?

What do you do when you find yourself next to someone who throws you off tune?  

Our parish choir has always had a "everyone is welcome" policy.  We have a new parishioner who has occasionally come to sing in the choir.  She's past her prime and sings flat in that loud operatic, old-lady wobbly voice.  She stood next to me at practice today and I just could not keep a tune.  Plus, since it was practice, she was making a lot of mistakes, which threw me and the other soprano off further.   It was noticeable.  Our director kept saying things like, "Sopranos you're struggling with that part. or... where did the soprano's go??..or.... let's rerun that again for the *sopranos*".. Ugh... I tried inching my way behind her... but she moved back with me..  I finally just moved to a different stand with a lone soprano.  But, it was obvious and she turned to look at me.  I felt awful.  

I don't want to be total jerk, but OTOH, I cannot sing next to her.  We've had our share of flat singers, and people that make clunkers (I know I have myself!) but somehow her style of voice is throwing me off more than normal. 

She's very sweet and she's new to our parish.  I want to be welcoming to new people, but what do I do about this??!!    Going to the director is not so easy.  We have a rotation of directors. Whenever this issue has come up in the past they have often deferred to someone else.    Having a rotation of directors is great until you need someone to take charge. 

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5 minutes ago, WendyAndMilo said:

Is there one director that has more experience outside of the church with singing/choir/music in general?  If so, I would go to that person, explain the situation and ask if there is anything you can do to help the situation on your end - not complaining or putting the burden on the newcomer at all, ya know?

That's a good idea.   I might do that.  Two of our directors are fellow sopranos, but neither was at practice today.  I don't know if the new soprano has been in the choir when they have directed yet.  One of them has more experience, and her husband is a professional musician with the NSO.  So they know about blending, group sound, etc.  The other director is someone I've gone to in the past and she was no help.  She's super sweet and hates to hurt anyone's feelings, if you KWIM.  

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As a director, I think I might try to put the newcomer on the end in front and next to a strong, confident singer (with a heads up to that person of what you are doing). That is the spot where she is least likely to impact other singers; if you get a chance to talk to a director you might suggest that.

I don't know what you can do on your own other than arrive after her so you can choose a place not next to her. Moving away from her during practice is definitely going to come across to her as a rejection, I think I would try to just make the best of things if I found myself stuck in such a position during practice.

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Just now, maize said:

As a director, I think I might try to put the newcomer on the end in front and next to a strong, confident singer (with a heads up to that person of what you are doing). That is the spot where she is least likely to impact other singers; if you get a chance to talk to a director you might suggest that.

I don't know what you can do on your own other than arrive after her so you can choose a place not next to her. Moving away from her during practice is definitely going to come across to her as a rejection, I think I would try to just make the best of things if I found myself stuck in such a position during practice.

yeah, the thing is, I and the other soprano there today ARE  strong singers.  It was that bad.   She was throwing us both off.  The other soprano was pretty frustrated by the experience too.  

I think arriving late and standing in the back is a doable idea.   We kind of all stand in our "usual" spots, but I am not married to my place close to the front, I just can't see the music when I'm 2-3 people away from the stand.  

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37 minutes ago, WendyAndMilo said:

We've had some people donate their old tablets to the choir so that the music can easily be passed around to people not right at the stands.  Would something like that be helpful or are your directors/priest anti-electronic during service?

No, they're not anti-electronic.  That's an interesting idea.  The other soprano is also the parish admin.  I'm going to ask her about the feasibility of that. 

Edited by PrincessMommy
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20 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

I have had this experience, but welcoming a new member is more important than sound for a church choir. Make a joyful noise, after all. My answer would be different for a community choir. 

I get that, and that's why I don't want to be a jerk.  Right now I'm feeling particularly guilty about moving away.   But the choir is more than just extra music for the service in an Orthodox church. The whole service is sung (except the Bible readings and sermon).     If there was a church praise band where one of the singers sang loud and off key, how would worship work in that context?  Or a community choir performance where one singer stood out in a bad way.  It would be gringy.   We need to be careful not to be distractingly bad.   

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I've been in a similar situation. I think it is really the choir director's job to ensure that the singing is up to the standard that they and the congregation expect. One choir experience was pretty bad, because the "director" was also the lead singer and guitar/keyboard. He only heard himself. The rest of us had to figure it out on our own.

My latest choir director is amazing. During the church service he is leading the singing and guitar/keyboard, but during the practice he is ensuring that everyone knows what to sing, how to get the right timing, and he sends us all music and audio tapes of all the songs for us to us for home practice. And if all else fails, he can turn up or down each singer's mic volume during the service. 😉 

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Thanks guys.  I didn't mean to insinuate that I would speak to her myself or ask her to leave... no way.  That is definitely not my place.    But, I do appreciate the ideas that I can do to mitigate my singing being affected by hers.  

I wish we had choir directors like Wintermom has.  All of ours are great at directing music but none of them seem to want to take the lead..esp with the hard stuff.   So we do have to fend for ourselves in situations like this.  

@wintermom  - having mics can have some wonderful benefits like that.  

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8 hours ago, Danae said:

I hope someday to be as generous a singer as the alto who stands behind me in our church choir. She is one of, if not the, best singers we have, and is next to an older lady who is not as quick as she once was. When the older lady is having trouble J always asks for help on behalf of the whole section. “Could we hear the alto note again?” “The altos are having trouble with the rhythm at measure 45,” etc.

I mention this because it sounds from your OP that you are a little frustrated that the whole section is getting blamed for doing things wrong. In my experience that’s how choir directors work, even when they know who the problem is, to avoid calling out specific people. And if you can’t hold your part even with her next to you then maybe running that section once again “for the sopranos” will help you too.

Our church choir has an “anyone who wants to sing is welcome” policy, and we also have assigned positions. When I was next to someone who couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket I used the opportunity to work on my own skills of listening for the piano and holding my own note. It actually made me a much better singer. 

That is a very good point.  Thank you for sharing that.   I wasn't frustrated that we were being blamed, I was just trying to explain that it was obvious our ability to sing our part was being affected.  Yes, the director was being very diplomatic.

Usually, when I'm next to someone who is flat I try to listen to the altos.  That usually helps me a lot.  When I was in choirs with pianos or accompaniment it was not a problem either.  Like you said, just follow the piano.  It was so much easier to keep the pitch.  Orthodox sing completely acapella, so no piano to lean on.  My sight-singing skills have gotten better since becoming Orthodox! 🙂 

Edited by PrincessMommy
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39 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Usually, when I'm next to someone who is flat I try to listen to the altos.  That usually helps me a lot.  When I was in choirs with pianos or accompaniment it was not a problem either.  Like you said, just follow the piano.  It was so much easier to keep the pitch.  Orthodox sing completely acapella, so no piano to lean on.  My sight-singing skills have gotten better since becoming Orthodox! 🙂 

That is definitely an added challenge. It takes time to build up to the level to be able to stay in key and sing with multiple parts going on around. It's actually pretty amazing that this woman has the confidence to even try it. Perhaps you could suggest to have a soprano-only practice at your home using a keyboard. I have seen this technique used with choirs. It's very effective.

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20 hours ago, WendyAndMilo said:

@PrincessMommy is she off in all the tones of just a few?  I've noticed that our choir sounds so much better in some than others.  Has she been around long enough to see a correlation?  If so, maybe request that additional practice be made in weeks with certain tones so that everyone has a chance to work on the weird ones.  (Please note, I am not in the choir; this is just outside observations and listening to the ramblings of my godmother who is our choir director 🙂

No, she's flat.  The mistakes were with a few of the Nativity Kontakions because, as I've found, there are small differences in songs between parishes.  I think she just wasn't as familiar with the piece so she'd make mistakes.  We mostly practiced music for the Eve of Nativity such as: "God is With us"  Its IS a hard piece, but because she was loud it was hard for everyone to stay on pitch and follow the music when she was making clunkers.  Then we can't hear the correct notes.  Does that make sense?  I guess my way of doing this is; if I'm new to a choir I sing softly until I'm sure I know what I'm doing.  I shouldn't expect others to do it just like me 😏  As others have recommended here, now that I know what to expect I can concentrate harder to hear the correct part and not get side-tracked by her. 

And we are spoiled.  We have a wonderful choir too with lots of talented singers.  I don't think it's a matter that she can't sing a note... it's that she's past her prime.   I told my husband years ago to please, please tell me when I need to stop singing in the choir.  We all get to that sad moment at some point, unfortunately for women (esp. sopranos), it's usually earlier than we'd like. 

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12 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

No, she's flat.  The mistakes were with a few of the Nativity Kontakions because, as I've found, there are small differences in songs between parishes.  I think she just wasn't as familiar with the piece so she'd make mistakes.  We mostly practiced music for the Eve of Nativity such as: "God is With us"  Its IS a hard piece, but because she was loud it was hard for everyone to stay on pitch and follow the music when she was making clunkers.  Then we can't hear the correct notes.  Does that make sense?  I guess my way of doing this is; if I'm new to a choir I sing softly until I'm sure I know what I'm doing.  I shouldn't expect others to do it just like me 😏  As others have recommended here, now that I know what to expect I can concentrate harder to hear the correct part and not get side-tracked by her. 

And we are spoiled.  We have a wonderful choir too with lots of talented singers.  I don't think it's a matter that she can't sing a note... it's that she's past her prime.   I told my husband years ago to please, please tell me when I need to stop singing in the choir.  We all get to that sad moment at some point, unfortunately for women (esp. sopranos), it's usually earlier than we'd like. 

Maybe she has a slight hearing problem and doesn't realize it. Hearing certain frequencies may deteriorate earlier than others. I'm not sure.

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I'm sorry.  I know nothing about singing, can't carry a tune, and I'm pretty sure that those who can engage some sort of sorcery.  However, I produced a daughter who sings beautifully and is in her university's choir.  She sings Soprano 2/Alto and some of the things she actually sings cracks me up.  She sent me this and now I can never hear this song with out thinking of this girl. "baaaay be"  

 

Edited by KungFuPanda
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8 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'm sorry.  I know nothing about singing, can't carry a tune, and I'm pretty sure that those who can engage some sort of sorcery.  However, I produced a daughter who sings beautifully and is in her university's choir.  She sings Soprano 2/Alto and some of the things she actually sings cracks me up.  She sent me this and now I can never hear this song with out thinking of this girl. "baaaay be"  

 

This is why soprano is WAY easier than most other parts! You usually have a melody line that is more familiar and easier to remember! 

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