ADHD or Lack of Skills?

[Paige]

I recently brought my 12yo home from PS. She had been homeschooled through 3rd grade. We brought her home because of issues unrelated to her experience in PS. She was getting all As, no problems, top of the class, advanced classes, etc. When I had her at home when she was younger, she was probably the quickest to catch on to anything of all my kids but a little hard to keep on task. She was the youngest, so it wasn't unusual. My oldest is highly gifted and she was faster than he'd been at the same age, but she's never been tested. 

Now, she's really really struggling at home with the material. She says the work is harder, she can't read as fast as I expect, she doesn't understand, etc...From my perspective it looks like she's not really actually doing anything but staring into space when she's doing work independently, but when she's by my side and I'm keeping her on task she does great. She says she can't focus when she's alone (but she wants to do her work independently) and claims that despite her high grades at school she was barely keeping up. My oldest was recently diagnosed as ADHD so it made me think maybe she has the same issue. Does it sound like ADHD or is it a skills gap and I'm expecting too much?

Examples:

She says they never did word problems in school. (She's in Algebra and would have been in Algebra at PS this year-their best math student per the teacher last year) I find it hard to believe that they never did word problems in school but I know Algebra word problems require more patience than those in lower levels. I mean it's taking us days to do 2-3 Dolciani probems. Not even AOPS.

Reading- she'll take an hour to read 15-20 pages in a middle grade novel. I'm dying. Reading's never been her favorite thing but she can read things she's interested in with no problem. 

In other subjects it's similar. She's just taking way too long in every subject every day and I don't know if it's me or her. I would be perfectly fine lowering expectations and reteaching the basics if that's what she needs but it feels like it shouldn't be this way. She's not my first 7th grader and others who struggled more when younger, had an easier time with this stuff. 

Seeing what undiagnosed ADHD can did in an older teen when expectations increased with my DS, makes me concerned for her. On the other hand, maybe that's causing me to see things when DD is normal. I don't want to put her through testing or medication that makes her feel like she has a problem when she doesn't!

Would you get an eval, start meds, or wait and see? It could also be adjustment to being homeschooled again. The doctor unfortunately knows me well and said DD could come in, talk to her, and they'd consider a trial of medication without putting her through a full eval, but that's problematic in its own way. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Paige

[Storygirl]

It sounds like it could be ADHD to me. The lack of focus wouldn't be due to a skill gap, in my opinion. The issue we've had with getting DD14 a diagnosis is that her teachers think she is doing great, and they don't indicate issues when they fill out the teacher forms for the pediatrician to diagnose. Do you think that you would be able to get enough input for someone to diagnose your daughter?

In the meantime, would she listen to audio versions of the texts while doing her reading? That might help with the pacing.

Would she be willing to use a timer while she works? Not to get her to race to finish things. But if she heard a ding every 7 or 10 minutes, perhaps it could serve as a little reminder to get back on task, if her mind has wandered. I was listening to the online autism summit this week, and one of the speakers suggested doing this and making a hash mark on a chart with each ring of the timer, just to record "on task" or "off task." Some students can be motivated to increase their time on task, if they are kind of competing with themselves to improve.

[EKS]

I don't think that being unable to work independently for long periods is in and of itself a sign of ADHD.

I think this sort of expanding the work to fill the time available is a hazard of homeschooling.  I had two kids who did this and the only cure was school where, really if you think about it, they are monitored not only by the teacher but also the other students since a slowpoke will stick out like a sore thumb.  At home, what's the consequence of being slow?  Well, the parent might get frustrated.  But unless there is a beloved scheduled activity pending that the parent is willing to forgo, all they're doing is wasting their free time, and apparently this isn't that big of a deal for a lot of kids. 

Some ideas:

Make sure you have placed her at her instructional level rather than her independent level for most tasks.  What this means is that the work should be difficult enough that she needs you to move forward.  If she is highly gifted, it may take a while to understand what level this is (and by the time you figure it out, she will have moved on...ask me how I know!). 

Make sure that the assignments, books, etc. are engaging.  If you bump things up to her instructional level, the work might automatically become more engaging, but difficult/rigorous does not always equate to interesting/engaging/meaningful.  If a resource is not engaging, I'd look for a replacement.

 

[Paige]

1 minute ago, Storygirl said:

It sounds like it could be ADHD to me. The lack of focus wouldn't be due to a skill gap, in my opinion. The issue we've had with getting DD14 a diagnosis is that her teachers think she is doing great, and they don't indicate issues when they fill out the teacher forms for the pediatrician to diagnose. Do you think that you would be able to get enough input for someone to diagnose your daughter?

In the meantime, would she listen to audio versions of the texts while doing her reading? That might help with the pacing.

Would she be willing to use a timer while she works? Not to get her to race to finish things. But if she heard a ding every 7 or 10 minutes, perhaps it could serve as a little reminder to get back on task, if her mind has wandered. I was listening to the online autism summit this week, and one of the speakers suggested doing this and making a hash mark on a chart with each ring of the timer, just to record "on task" or "off task." Some students can be motivated to increase their time on task, if they are kind of competing with themselves to improve.

The timer is a great idea. I've had her work with a timer to at least make sure she touches every subject, but not in the way you've described. It's hard to get her to remember to reset the timer, but I could use her phone to set a reoccurring one. 

I had her listening to SOTW on audio book in the beginning of the year but she said she couldn't recall a thing she heard and remembered better when she read it herself. 

Her previous teachers would never indicate she has a problem. She never had any issues in school. She's like my DS in many ways- we were shocked when he had the ADHD diagnosis. He would have been voted least likely to have ADHD in every grade! She's smart enough to do the work without paying attention and wants to please the teachers too much to allow boredom to affect her behavior in class. 

I should clarify that what I'm calling lack of focus and not doing anything, she's describing as not knowing how to do it. I struggle to believe she really doesn't know because of her past performance (surely the schools expected paragraphs?!) and because when I ask questions to help her think about what to do she gives me the correct answers. I'll say things like, what should we do first....then what's the next step.....and then? Every time she's correct, but there's a gap of something. 

[Paige]

I'm not sending her to her room alone all day or anything. We're going over everything together, she's with me 90% of the time, then she sits and does the independent work (like the math problems, or the actual paragraph writing, or the actual reading). She's distracted by the dog, her little brother, making Alexa play a bazillion different songs to get in her jam...

And she's cooperative, not argumentative or anything. 

I don't think she has too much. She does. We have Algebra, Writing with Style, Latin and Science outsourced, Literature which is basically read and discuss, SOTW which I have pared down to as little as possible, and Web design. A couple of times a week she does some cheesy workbooks to prepare for standardized tests....I've learned from my mistakes with the other kids about overdoing things. 

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, Paige said:

Now, she's really really struggling at home with the material. She says the work is harder, she can't read as fast as I expect, she doesn't understand, etc...

Well you've got multiple kids, so you know that sometimes what they're saying is the problem isn't the problem. Did she WANT to come home? That's a pretty big jolt to go from school to home when she had good grades, etc. Was she really on board with that change?

8 hours ago, Paige said:

We're going over everything together, she's with me 90% of the time

I'm just thinking through this out loud here, not meaning to criticize so much as just work through it. That is not an age-appropriate work style, so it begs the question of WHY she needs that much support. That alone tells you she's diagnosable. Like on that point, I don't even know why you're quibbling, go get it done. Better yet, get the child on meds and see if she likes how she functions better. 

Also remember that in school she had herd effect, momentum, etc. to carry her along. She totally lost that when she was abruptly taken from school, and it's possible one of the reasons she WAS doing well in school was because of the crowd and herd effect. She lost that. Maybe what you need is a private system that gives her that kind of momentum. Is she ready to switch to online classes or DE? She's 12 and in our state that's old enough to DE. I'm not saying do risky things with her, but the dynamic is an issue.

10 hours ago, Paige said:

She says she can't focus when she's alone (but she wants to do her work independently)

Haha, THAT is so true!!! That's totally how my dd was. Good luck, lol. High structure, materials she can do independently, check-ins. It's a real challenge, definitely.

10 hours ago, Paige said:

she was faster

There's such a fine line between speed and impulsivity.

10 hours ago, Paige said:

claims that despite her high grades at school she was barely keeping up.

I'd take that to mean something was frustrating her and she doesn't know what it was. It was sorta like me going into the book store with my Christmas money and looking for books on how to study. I was going to a school for the gifted, seldom needed to study, but because I didn't need to I perceived that I didn't know how and was worried about it! I skimmed the book and didn't buy it, lol. Maybe you could roll with it and help her put words to what was frustrating her?

11 hours ago, Paige said:

I mean it's taking us days to do 2-3 Dolciani probems.

Is it possible it's something more basic like puberty? My dd at 12 was a MESS. She didn't get her brain back till 14. It really could be puberty or puberty + ADHD. Like I'm not saying the not ADHD, but puberty could be making it worse. My dd needed extra naps, extra food.

11 hours ago, Paige said:

The doctor unfortunately knows me well and said DD could come in, talk to her, and they'd consider a trial of medication without putting her through a full eval, but that's problematic in its own way. 

Can you make a private psych eval happen with someone who specializes in gifted? Then decide on the meds after that.

11 hours ago, Paige said:

It could also be adjustment to being homeschooled again.

So did you do some kind of deschooling? How long have you been slogging like this? You're going into the holidays. You might make a contract that is some kind of structured deschooling. That way, if it's puberty it's appropriate and if it's something else it's appropriate. You're gonna be screwed up all during the holidays anyway, so now would be the time to do it.

-lots of reading

-write something daily in response to something interesting (like compel her to sign up for email news or watch the news daily or listen to sources for something or however 12 yos get info these days, lol)

-research something 

-create pinterest boards

-do something else for math and put aside the Dolciani. I get that it's good stuff. It's just she's 12 and it doesn't matter.                                             Mathematics, a Human Endeavor: A Textbook for Those Who Think They Don't Like the Subject                                       This might be good. Don't people sometimes use it as sort of a brain break, pre-algebra review, whatever? Maybe pick up the pace and plug her through it, see what happens. Maybe her pre-algebra instruction was crap and she's not really ready. Did you placement test her? But even so, even if she's theoretically ready, there's nothing wrong with doing another type of text for two months and getting her brain in a better place. Maybe do the evals during that, get things on track, then go back to algebra. The algebra just doesn't matter, kwim? If she's that smart, she can double later.

[PeterPan]

11 hours ago, Paige said:

I don't want to put her through testing or medication that makes her feel like she has a problem

Does she feel like she has a problem?

11 hours ago, Paige said:

when she doesn't!

Do you mean like if she doens't or that you don't feel she does? One, it's not a PROBLEM to have ADHD. I mean, depending on who you talk to, it's just a shade of normal. In fact, even more, you could ask whether your highly gifted ds who didn't seem ADHD was misdiagnosed if he really doesn't seem ADHD. The "symptoms" are almost the same when you look at them parallel with ADHD, ASD, and giftedness. Seriously.                                             Bright Not Broken: Gifted Kids, ADHD, and Autism                                     

So maybe just back up and ask what SHE thinks and what SHE wants to happen. I think the dc perceives themselves at this age separately from the parents and might have already formed some opinions. If we're not giving them accurate information to work with, then they're going to work with whatever they've got or guess or whatever their (idiotic) peers say to them. You also want to be watching for depression, because that's a pretty common outcome with this mix as the challenges increase and the sense of problems increases. 

Psychs are usually pretty good about focusing on STRENGTHS and having a positive outlook as much as possible. If your psych didn't do that with your ds, that's unfortunate. Psychs have always been very affirming with my dd, talking with us about things she could do, how she ought to go to grad school, on and on. Even with my ds they try to talk about strengths, lol. 

11 hours ago, Paige said:

Reading- she'll take an hour to read 15-20 pages in a middle grade novel. I'm dying. Reading's never been her favorite thing but she can read things she's interested in with no problem. 

She may just be really bored. Why are you assigning chunks in a novel? A student this age should have assignments with a due data where it's her responsibility to chunk and hit the deadline. Do not be her frontal lobe for her and don't chunk so much you bore her. Attention and engagement will drop when she's bored, yes.

Does she have any recreation or personal pursuits? What is she missing most from school and what is she wanting to do now with her free time? Is she using her free time well or is she struggling to figure it out?

Edited November 10, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

11 hours ago, Paige said:

I would be perfectly fine lowering expectations

Is she asking for this? How busy would she *like* to be during the week? She may feel like she can't get her work done efficiently to have time to go do other things like volunteer work or projects or craft classes or whatever. It may take a combo of meds and higher structure to get her there. STRUCTURE is always, always the buzzword with ADHD. It could be that peer/momentum/herd effect, but also lists for the week/day, bookending independent work and activities she looks forward to, online classes, outings, nonnegotiable deadlines, etc.

So I don't regret homeschooling all the way in the sense that my dd did well. However she never stopped being this kind of pulls teeth. She could not make her own structure, and it's just the nature of her mix, her EF deficits. She did the work and pursued things (1600 pins about tutus, I kid you not), but she's a lot happier in college with the herd effect and structure. I say she's happy, and it totally wears her out. Guess she can't win. 

So I don't regret it, but I'm saying no matter how much I did it was never quite as much as she needed. We'll say it's because I was distracted by ds and driving to his therapies, sigh. 

The best advice we got in our psych evals for dd was to GO OUT OF THE BOX. So you look at that list I gave you, and that was literally stuff we did. Just like totally off the beaten path, just show up and plan on interacting with the world and reading and writing something. I'd give her essay collections on topics and books on philosophy and have her read and respond. Ditto with the news. This stuff was really golden for us. I'd throw textbooks at her and just let her imbibe.

What does your dd actually LIKE? Is she spending part of her day on something she's really into? Is there a better way to harness that and bringing it into the other subjects? Like with my dd, I brought her humanities into the science. But you could do the opposite, bringing science into the humanities, absolutely. You just need a sense of what she's into or what makes her light up. Then take that thing that makes her light up and bring it into her other areas where she's dull and flat and lifeless. There are ways people who like what she likes and thinks the way she thinks engage with those topics, so it's valid to try a new angle, something way off the beaten path or different.

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, Paige said:

I should clarify that what I'm calling lack of focus and not doing anything, she's describing as not knowing how to do it. I struggle to believe she really doesn't know because of her past performance (surely the schools expected paragraphs?!) and because when I ask questions to help her think about what to do she gives me the correct answers. I'll say things like, what should we do first....then what's the next step.....and then? Every time she's correct, but there's a gap of something. 

You could see if anything in Minahan's stuff on anxiety strikes a bell. https://jessicaminahan.com/press-room/  She talks about EF=executive function affecting independent work, but also it's the initiation, persistence, and asking for help. So she could be having breakdowns in EF (which you expect with ADHD and giftedness, both) or those big three (initiation, persistence, asking for help) and wouldn't have words for it. It's kind of in the weeds, but I'm saying there are explanations for why someone can be saying it's hard and seeming to do well. She's masking for some subtle skill deficits, sure. So you can read about EF and think through what the deficits are.

[Paige]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

. Did she WANT to come home?

Yes. It was her choice. She doesn't want to go back.

That is not an age-appropriate work style, so it begs the question of WHY she needs that much support. That alone tells you she's diagnosable. Like on that point, I don't even know why you're quibbling, go get it done. Better yet, get the child on meds and see if she likes how she functions better. 

We didn't start like that. I moved to having her by me because otherwise nothing was getting done and she couldn't account for her time. She'd say she was doing it, but when checked on, there was very little accomplished. She would say it's "too hard."

There's such a fine line between speed and impulsivity.

I meant she grasped the material faster, showed better attention and interest, and her recall was good. 

Is it possible it's something more basic like puberty? 

Probably doesn't help

Can you make a private psych eval happen with someone who specializes in gifted? 

It would take me 6-12 weeks to get in with the only person who we can see. She's nice and seems good, but I don't think she specializes in gifted kids, and I don't know that DD is gifted. She was just a really bright little kid and she's good at math for all I know. She's not reading War and Peace and solving proofs.

So did you do some kind of deschooling? How long have you been slogging like this? 

She had the whole summer off and we started up gradually from Aug-Sept

-do something else for math and put aside the Dolciani. ..Maybe her pre-algebra instruction was crap and she's not really ready. Did you placement test her? 

The school placement tested her and she passed. She did fine with all the non-word problem sections before these last two sections that were all word problems. I agree with her- word problems are the worst. She's making different minor mistakes over and over and it's frustrating because she's doing 95% correct but in a 7 step problem one error means you're wrong, and you have to go back to where you messed up and restart. Copying the wrong number into a chart, missing a negative, adding incorrectly, looking at the wrong answer in the answer key...individually the mistakes are insignificant. It's attention to detail in the problems. 

Thanks so much for thinking through this with me. I responded in the quotes. I'll do the same with your other posts.

[Paige]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Does she feel like she has a problem?

She feels frustrated. She filled out an ADHD screener for me and checked many boxes but not all. That put the idea in her head and she'd be willing to try something. She just wants to feel more successful and I want her to be successful, but I don't want to push her into anxiety, stress, depression. I'm at the point now where mental health and relationships are my #1 priority. 

Do you mean like if she doens't or that you don't feel she does? One, it's not a PROBLEM to have ADHD. I mean, depending on who you talk to, it's just a shade of normal. In fact, even more, you could ask whether your highly gifted ds who didn't seem ADHD was misdiagnosed if he really doesn't seem ADHD. The "symptoms" are almost the same when you look at them parallel with ADHD, ASD, and giftedness. Seriously.                                             Bright Not Broken: Gifted Kids, ADHD, and Autism                                     

DS has been thoroughly, completely tested. He is definitely not ASD and neither is she. She's much less quirky than him too. My concern is that frustration from repeated failures and frustrations related to ADHD are so highly associated with depression and similar issues that if this age is where DD hits the wall with her ability to succeed with increasing expectations, I want to notice. I want to get to her before she's depressed because I've seen what happens when you miss it and think your child is just disorganized, not paying attention, misbehaving, defiant, etc. On the other hand, I may be a little over sensitive and hyper vigilant, kwim?

So maybe just back up and ask what SHE thinks and what SHE wants to happen. 

She'll say, "I dunno."

 

Why are you assigning chunks in a novel? A student this age should have assignments with a due data where it's her responsibility to chunk and hit the deadline. 

I wasn't. I was saying read this and this, try to spend an hour a day reading...One book she had 5 weeks to read. It was Horrible Histories, so not challenging. I reminded her several times a week and she said she spent time on it. The other was House of the Scorpions. Again...not a tough read. She was supposed to read some most days and fill in a reading journal. She just didn't do it. She said she was reading, but without eyes on her I can't say if she tried or not. So she moved to reading where I could see her. Again, it wasn't getting done. Then, I gave her more concrete goals- read to this chapter or that...I tried to be reasonable- maybe about 60 pages over 3 days. Still not happening. She says she's slow. Ok....the only thing to do is read more at this point. She doesn't hate the book. 

Does she have any recreation or personal pursuits? 

She does a few physical extracurriculars- about 3-4x a week. She has little free time because she's so slow getting her work done. She likes to write, draw, and hang out with friends. I will let her go ahead and play with her friends some days even when she's done little because I know she needs social time, she also takes break to walk or play with the dog, play with the baby, watch tv, eat a snack...We're frustrated but not punitive. I know she wants to succeed and if she's not there's a problem, and she's unlikely to solve it on her own or by being told to do better.

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Paige

[PeterPan]

Oh I'm not quibbling with *why* you're working with her so carefully. I'm just pointing out that it's indicative that something is going on. And the problem is when she says it's "too hard" it's not really telling you what's going on.

With ADHD there's often low processing speed. Shows up in the IQ testing. I'm not sure it's tight, like there's ALWAYS an effect, but it's there. And it can be kind of subtle in a way when paired with impulsivity. Even with my ds, who's processing speed is discrepant enough to qualify for accommodations but not as radically as some kids, it's still noticeable. 

How tight is with it the *only person* you could see gig? Have you tried the Hoagies Gifted list to look for a psych? There's no reason to think she's NOT gifted. Siblings are usually within 10 points, so given how high your ds scored you have every reason to assume she'd score relatively close (assuming the same parents), barring maybe anxiety or something affecting the scores. 

In fact, fwiw, my ds scored HIGHER than my dd. 

So struggling with multi-step problems would be normal for ADHD and working memory deficits. You can get the evals, do meds, work on working memory. You can also use some strategies. If her processing speed is affected, that might explain the "it's too hard" gig. Again, data could help here. So she seriously might be bright enough but it might feel hard if her processing speed is affected. So some data would let you sort out what to target. You're not going to bump processing speed much, but you can bump working memory or bring in supports, sure. Like with my dd I would sit and be her scribe, her external RAM.

So yes, you're describing a lot with attention. Does it improve if she takes a nap first? Or has a snack first? And is she in a limited distraction environment? Has she tried doing any mindfulness or physical exercise before to see if it helps? Have you tried *small* doses of caffeine to see if they help?

[Paige]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Is she asking for this? 

She'd like less to do but at the same time she really wants to get ahead. She's love to spend hours writing fanfiction. 🙄 She's easily bored but at the same time not super motivated to be a self starter. I expect non negotiable deadline would equal failure.

So I don't regret it, but I'm saying no matter how much I did it was never quite as much as she needed. We'll say it's because I was distracted by ds and driving to his therapies, sigh. 

That's where we are here too, times more kids' therapies.

The best advice we got in our psych evals for dd was to GO OUT OF THE BOX. So you look at that list I gave you, and that was literally stuff we did. Just like totally off the beaten path, just show up and plan on interacting with the world and reading and writing something. I'd give her essay collections on topics and books on philosophy and have her read and respond. Ditto with the news. This stuff was really golden for us. I'd throw textbooks at her and just let her imbibe.

I'd love to do this. Maybe I'll try more. She's young enough that we have time to try new things and fail and still be on track for whatever she wants to do in high school or college. 

What does your dd actually LIKE? Is she spending part of her day on something she's really into? Is there a better way to harness that and bringing it into the other subjects? Like with my dd, I brought her humanities into the science. But you could do the opposite, bringing science into the humanities, absolutely. You just need a sense of what she's into or what makes her light up. Then take that thing that makes her light up and bring it into her other areas where she's dull and flat and lifeless. There are ways people who like what she likes and thinks the way she thinks engage with those topics, so it's valid to try a new angle, something way off the beaten path or different.

Maybe it's years of PS but she doesn't care about anything much. She likes volunteering but has no target- she just likes helping. She is only obsessed with celebrities and youtube, and fanfiction for shows I am too old to see value in. I'm not a boomer, but ok, boomer to me in regards to her interests right now. We started a new club for kids in our area that she's excited about. It's service oriented so when it gets moving I think she'll be into that. 

 

[PeterPan]

I guess I'm so b&w I'm not sure how you would push her into anxiety or depression by getting evals. She's at risk now because she's increasingly frustrated. Giving her data to make better choices would improve her success. Anxiety is a chemical situation in her body anyway, so she's going to have anxiety irrespective of what you do. She's also going to have anxiety increase as demands increase (if she has the chemical bent toward anxiety), irrespective of what you do. You can bring in supports, use strategies, but it's not like it's a choice or your fault. It's just chemistry. 

In my small world, the kids I know who are depressed about their ADHD are the ones who weren't allowed to get evals and meds. 

Linguisystems has an EF=Executive Function Training workbook series. Also Sarah Ward blah blah I forget of 360 Thinking has workshops they do. Heathermomster did some other workshops with her ds. If you're looking for how you give them tools and what the best cognitive strategies are for dealing with yourself, there's plenty out there, yes. We didn't do meds with my dd till 16 btw, so it's not like a have to do meds, push them early kind of thing. It's more like there are tools and meds can bring the tools within reach. Like you say, we want to decrease frustration and get things more collaborative and pro-active and problem solving oriented. 

No I don't think you're being over whatever. I mean, didn't every single person in this thread say that? It sure looks like ADHD. I just wouldn't do meds without *at least* a computerized sustained attention test by the prescribing doc if you want to go that way. And you'd find it exceptionally helpful if you got the right psych. You need her specific information to have data to work with her better.

On her replying blankly, what happens if you give her more time to process or put it as alternatives (3 options here, plan a/b/c) or put it as a text message that she can reply to later?

I'm reading what you wrote about the reading, and it's just really odd. I'm wondering if you have any objective standardized testing, achievement testing, on the child? And you went with the ps placement test for the math but again what about something outside? I mean you're handing her a book (horrible histories) that is pretty low. So she's bored? She's having trouble decoding or comprehending? I just have no data to help you there. Does she read for pleasure? What does she read on her own? How much per day does she read on her own?

If you exclude everything else, you're left with her needing structure. It really doesn't sound so simple. It's probably some mix of boredom plus needing structure plus plus.

You know, back to the ASD thing. I wasn't bringing that up as a diagnosis, only because the book explores the curious overlap. But when you mention quirky, I'll just throw this out. Have you looked at the Social Communication Profiles? https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  What you might do is see where they fit in that. The DSM is so screwy, so not a fan, but these profiles kind of jump over that and ponder how the dc is actually thinking and taking perspective and relating and problem solving. I don't know, maybe you'll see something in there. Kids can have an ADHD diagnosis and fit somewhere on those profiles. It might give you some clues or some more ways to look or some more nuanced words for what you're seeing.

22 minutes ago, Paige said:

She has little free time because she's so slow getting her work done.

My ds is like this. I'm just tossing out ideas here. If it's a herd thing or even a form of co-regulating, where she's not able to upregulate herself to get into her work so she's relying on the group, the herd, the other person, what are the options? Can she meet with you at a totally different time of day? Could she have a tutor dedicated to work with her who gives her that structure and energy? I know for me, I have to bring a LOT with ds, because he's co-regulating and wanting me to bring that structure.

 

[PeterPan]

LOL, my dd did fan fiction at the same age!! My dd went from hating writing to working on it hours a day. She was actually kind of competitive, so the online competitions for it were motivating to her. 

You're saying a non-negotiable deadline would equal failure, but surely she had projects with due dates in school? So what changed? 

For my dd, part of it is she likes rolling with the crowd in college. She has so much natural entropy that to pull it together takes a lot of energy. That's why they'll talk about structure. But she was tired and you couldn't make stuff happen. It wasn't necessarily an ideal thing.

I didn't know/remember you were doing a lot of therapy trips. One thing that worked with my dd was she would get started independently and then have an appointment time to meet with me. And I was like 10am, no matter what, and these are the things we're going to hit at that time slot. It was sorta tough love, but it created that structure. And she had a weekly checklist with columns for each day and I'd tell her it was her problem to finish the list but that she ought to target to be at x place on the list by the time we had our meeting slot.

So you can create structures like that. Or you know maybe let her pet cats and write and whatever all day and work together from 7-10pm or something. Not practical, totally tiring. Whatever. I've been playing with flexed schedules like that because my ds is SO strongly in his "I have my own plans for today" mode. 

Well if she did that well in the ps, maybe that kept her too BUSY to have other self-driven pursuits? I think your idea to get her going and prompt her a bit is good. The celebrities thing is curious. What do you think is the why? Like I google a particular famous person every day because I find the person's clothing and shoes and flip the bird/live your own way while being polite kind of approach interesting. And you gotta know I'm really, really different (frumpy, boring, overweight, etc.). So people laugh when they know who I google. And I really do google this person every day, lol. For me, I'm learning about life through this person, trying to take perspectives and explore a radically different life. 

But maybe she's just into heart throbs or something? LOL Can you chain to something more intelligent? Like from there, going to movie crit then the to the larger news magazines with the movie reviews then to world geography then to social causes. Maybe her widen her world from what she's already into. Does she use those things to interact with friends? What are her friends into? She's coming into an age where common interests is how they make friends, so it's *healthy* to have a widening variety of interests.

I'm sorry she's so discouraged and de-spunked. Maybe some evals would give explanations to her complaint that things are too hard and help you get on a better path? 

Ok, fwiw, I had some idiotic, like open and go things I would do with my dd at that age. We did an opera a week, read short versions of the operas and then had her watch it on youtube. Ditto for Shakespeare. Did a book of 50 debate prompts. Did logic puzzles together every morning. Did origami. 

It sounds kind of tedious, but that kind of stuff was all positive, upbeat, easy to create structure with, filling her bucket. Then she could go do her this alone or that alone.

I'm all for great math btw. I was raised on Dolciani, so I get why you want it. What would happen if she did something independently like MUS? I'm not saying it's great math or as stellar, I get that. Demme is quite good with ADHD minds, and the SKILLS she'd develop by working through the materials independently would serve her well. It might help her build that initiation, persistence, problem solving we were talking about. And the lateral slide to something that syncs with the ADHD mind might get her over the it's too hard hurdle. 

It's just a thought. I know it's not Dolciani. However she's only 12 and it might smooth over some things here. The skills my dd learned using it were valuable, probably more valuable than the math. She could do that daily and meet with you once a week for some Dolciani or brain stretching. Family Math has an upper level book. Didax has some really cool algebra level hands-on books. So she could do independent math 4X and lab math with you 1X.

Working more independently, with high structure, is an evidence based practice for anxiety. I'm not one to like that word either, but you've got negativity going that is consistent with anxiety flaring up. So maybe some strategies there would be preventative. She's a long way from go to the GP and get a med, but she's at a place where maybe some informed strategies and supports could help. It NEVER hurts to decrease anxiety and bring in those supports. 

So I'm saying that and you said it didn't work. With us it was more like at last, not shazam.

[PeterPan]

Here's the overall link for some of the Think Kids materials http://www.thinkkids.org/train/materials/

http://www.thinkkids.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/CPS-Assessment-Planning-Tool-for-Youth-v.-4.2019.pdf

http://www.thinkkids.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/TSI_clinical-9-12.pdf 

I'm not trying to hint anything, just tossing out some things you could look at, just to see if you notice any holes. 

When she does her fanfiction, does she type it? So is typing going well? That would give you something to build on. It's why I was having my dd respond to news emails every morning. It was something with structure using a modality that worked for her. 

I get that the apathy is hard to watch. If she's tired from puberty and her academics are ramping up, she might not have a lot left. 

If she's not into things right now but is into people and helping people, then maybe this would be a good age to do some self-awareness? I think it was around this age I got my dd the Do What You Are book. They do the Meyers Briggs personality profiles and then suggest how it plays out in life and avocations or hobbies. Maybe if she's into people, maybe that would be interesting to her? Maybe bring in some psychology? Maybe something accessible, not necessarily a textbook. Essay collections were so good for my dd. 

Ok, when I search for collections of psychology essays on amazon I get THIS lol                                             Cesar's Way: The Natural, Everyday Guide to Understanding & Correcting Common Dog Problems                                       But you know it's kind of a fun twist. Helping people, helping dogs. 

I don't know, it's a funky introspective age. Maybe broaden, chain, see what happens. I'm sorry about the apathy though. Is there *any* possibility there's an MTHFR defect? That really contributed to making my dd's set point low. It affects their b vitamin absorption. You would find it with genetics.

[ktgrok]

I'm going to switch gears on you and suggest before you do anything else you evaluate her reading again. I know you said she can read when it is something that interests her but she may just be filling in the gaps using her smarts, based on context, which is much harder to do when reading a textbook about new material. 

Reasons I'm bringing this up are slow reading speed and trouble with word problems. 

Does she struggle to do other math when it is a straight equation, or just word problems?  Does she do better when you read the problem to her?

Easiest quick way to evaluate would be doing one of the tests where she reads nonsense words - that takes away the ability to use intelligence/vocabularly to compensate for decoding struggles. 

[ktgrok]

Also seconding that testing to find processing speed problems if there are there is a great idea. 

[Pen]

It sounds like it could be both ADHD and lagging skills and other things too.

If she does great with you beside her to keep her on task—without any other help (not answering questions or helping her to read word problems etc), then a focus and EF issue seems primary.  But it isn’t necessarily ADD.  It could be being a spacey 12yo.  The more you are offering assistance (other than prompting to stay on task) when there beside her, the more it seems like a skill deficit.  

On the possible ADD side, I might try a nutrition and supplement program and external reminder timers,  and methods, and other things that might help as an approach before trying medications.  At the same time trying to identify lagging skills.  EF is itself something that can be worked on from a skills POV.  

[Pen]

For something like math word problems, I’d work on that as a skill.  

Forget about whether she did or didn’t have them in school, she’s clearly struggling now.  

As you work with her can you figure out what she’s not getting such that it takes days?  

I’m not familiar with Dolciani , can you give an example of 2-3 problems that have taken days?

 

 

Reading speed might be a reading problem, a processing problem, or an attention problem.   Or perhaps not really a problem.  If she’s interested in what she’s reading, is it still very slow for her?  Can you test her reading speed/fluency objectively on a home test of reading fluency?  (My son’s dyslexia materials included passages to test on, and charts of expected normals for different grades.  I would think it must be possible to find something like that without investing in a reading program.).  

She could have something like stealth dyslexia affecting reading and math word problems.  

[Pen]

Btw from my current perspective with an older teen, I’d do everything possible with getting good sleep routine, a diet that tends to favor good brain functioning, good physical exercise program etc now, because I think no matter what’s going on, everything is worse without those basics.  And at 12 you can still influence a lot of it.  In a short time you won’t be able to.

It has also been my experience with my teen that some supplements and vitamins make a huge difference in how he functions, but it is increasingly difficult to get him to take them.  

Screens are another issue.  

The UltraMind Solution: The Simple Way to Defeat Depression, Overcome Anxiety, and Sharpen Your Mind https://www.amazon.com/dp/1416549722/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_J7cYDbTNK1M7S

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, kand said:

I was wondering this as well. Besides that, I wanted to say that if math has been going well until now, and she’s mostly doing it right except for making small errors and sign errors and such, that’s super typical for a kid in algebra one. I think even more so when they are young for algebra. My daughter did the same when she was in it, and her online teacher assured me that was par for the course, and it usually worked itself out by the time they hit algebra two. She was right. My 13-year-old is in algebra one now, and I’m seeing the same thing with the little errors causing him to get things wrong.

 

And if that’s the problem, there are also strategies that can help: like using color to mark things like signs.  

[Paige]

You guys have me all mixed up still! 

I am a believer in labeling theory, so I want to be careful about putting it into her head that she's behind or has a problem- especially if she doesn't. If she does have a problem, I'd have no issue with accepting a label, but I don't want her picking up ones that aren't true because of my own issues.

I'm second guessing myself a lot because of my older kids. I taught based on my expectations and my experiences as a kid (don't we all...) Except I was not a normal kid. After I put my kids that I thought were normal into public school, I realized that my expectations had been WAY off. I'd been having them do stuff that was probably more than they needed and what I saw as problems or weaknesses, were just normal. For the most part they met my expectations, but we could have had an easier time if I'd relaxed and been more realistic. So when DD says things are too hard, I wonder if it's me or her. 

I really don't know what the deal is. She has had standardized academic testing (PSAT) and always is in the superior range, even in reading. She was a hate to read kind of kid but has finally started to get into some books like Harry Potter. I had her read some scientific literature (high level) for science and she bombed. I think it's pretty normal for someone's eyes to cross at her age and stage looking at scientific journals. To me it indicates her reading is not really superior, but not necessarily poor.

Maybe it's a combination- there are skill deficits for my expectations and gaps from the school's curricula and she might be inattentive ADD, and puberty added in the mix makes it more fun? 

She had a bad year socially in school last year, so maybe we're still seeing some emotional stress from that. Things are better at home this year, but the past still stings.

 

 

 

[Paige]

15 minutes ago, Pen said:

For something like math word problems, I’d work on that as a skill.  

Forget about whether she did or didn’t have them in school, she’s clearly struggling now.  

As you work with her can you figure out what she’s not getting such that it takes days?  

I’m not familiar with Dolciani , can you give an example of 2-3 problems that have taken days?

 

 

 

I'll give her a fluency test and see for reading but I bet she'll pass. I think it's boredom. She has trouble focusing and making herself read if she's not really into it. She doesn't like to sit there. That's why I thought SOTW on audio while she drew would be better, but she finds it boring too and wasn't paying attention.

Math isn't taking all day on 2-3 problems but rather after a couple of hours we need to drop it and move on, so it's taking a whole day's math time.

Example- Natalie has some nickels, Dirk has some dimes, and Quincy has some quarters. Dirk has 5 more dimes than Quincy has quarters. If Natalie gives Dirk a nickel, Dirk gives Quincy a dime, and Quincy gives Natalie a quarter, they will all have the same amount of money. How many did each have originally?

FWIW, I was raised on Dolciani too and took it as a 12yr old and remember the whole class failing every test and being graded on the curve, but in the end we all did fine in subsequent classes and learned from all our mistakes. I don't care if she gets things wrong because that's how she's going to learn. I think with her and DS, and probably myself at 12 in Dolciani, it's really hard to accept being wrong or having trouble when you aren't used to it. I probably just got the problem wrong when I was a kid and moved on and didn't spend hours doing them over until I got the right answer. 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Paige said:

You guys have me all mixed up still! 

I am a believer in labeling theory, so I want to be careful about putting it into her head that she's behind or has a problem- especially if she doesn't. If she does have a problem, I'd have no issue with accepting a label, but I don't want her picking up ones that aren't true because of my own issues.

I'm second guessing myself a lot because of my older kids. I taught based on my expectations and my experiences as a kid (don't we all...) Except I was not a normal kid. After I put my kids that I thought were normal into public school, I realized that my expectations had been WAY off. I'd been having them do stuff that was probably more than they needed and what I saw as problems or weaknesses, were just normal. For the most part they met my expectations, but we could have had an easier time if I'd relaxed and been more realistic. So when DD says things are too hard, I wonder if it's me or her. 

 

Could she do something like KhanAcademy math in 3 sessions of 15 minutes each per day, going at her own personal pace? If she’d agree to give good focus for that time.

 It could help to find and fill in any math gaps there may be and would perhaps reduce conflicts between her level and your expectations.  Her level is what it is.  

 

2 minutes ago, Paige said:

I really don't know what the deal is. She has had standardized academic testing (PSAT) and always is in the superior range, even in reading. She was a hate to read kind of kid but has finally started to get into some books like Harry Potter.

 

Great!  She’s 12 and homeschooling.  Let her read Harry Potter. If it takes an hour for her to read 12 pages of it, but she’s enjoying it, so what? 

2 minutes ago, Paige said:

I had her read some scientific literature (high level) for science and she bombed. I think it's pretty normal for someone's eyes to cross at her age and stage looking at scientific journals. To me it indicates her reading is not really superior, but not necessarily poor.

 

To me that does indicate that your expectations are way, way too high!!!

Scientific literature for a 12 yo to me only makes sense if the 12yo is personally driven and craving doing that.   Even schools for gifted children wouldn’t be requiring something like that.

I’d say you bombed that one in your expectation for her.  

And if that’s typical of your expectations, then she is correct that what you want her to do is too hard.  

 

2 minutes ago, Paige said:

Maybe it's a combination- there are skill deficits for my expectations and gaps from the school's curricula and she might be inattentive ADD, and puberty added in the mix makes it more fun? 

She had a bad year socially in school last year, so maybe we're still seeing some emotional stress from that. Things are better at home this year, but the past still stings.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. Probably all of that.  

[EKS]

In thinking about this a bit more...

If she has a sibling who is highly gifted, and she seems or seemed in the past like she was just as bright (if not brighter), there is something going on.  An HG kid who unfettered by LDs is going to be working well above the middle school level by the time they're 12yo across the board (with the possible exception of writing).  Have you looked into stealth dyslexia?  I wouldn't accept an ADHD diagnosis without looking into the possibility of dyslexia first.  

ETA:  In looking further through some of the other posts, I'd first go on the assumption that she's bored.  SOTW, for example, is for little kids.  I'd bump it up to the Human Odyssey series.  I'd also look for some compelling nonfiction written for an adult audience to spark her interest on a wide range of topics, and I'd read it aloud to her rather than use an audiobook.  The idea is to see whether making the work more interesting, at least in some areas, will help her focus. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by EKS

[Paige]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

 

Scientific literature for a 12 yo to me only makes sense if the 12yo is personally driven and craving doing that.   Even schools for gifted children wouldn’t be requiring something like that.

  

 

 

 

Yes. Probably all of that.  

She wasn't really reading for information with that but to see the structure of the paper. It was kind of like, let's read this and see what we can make sense of and how academics organize their papers. Scientific papers almost always have the same organization and the structure was what I wanted her to see. 

 

Her handwriting is beautiful but reading about stealth dyslexia makes me think that is something older DS almost definitely has! I'm going to read.

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Paige said:

I'll give her a fluency test and see for reading but I bet she'll pass.

 

I’d make sure.  If she’s very smart, she could use that to get around reading deficits for something like PSAT.  

How is her reading aloud? 

2 minutes ago, Paige said:

I think it's boredom. She has trouble focusing and making herself read if she's not really into it. She doesn't like to sit there. That's why I thought SOTW on audio while she drew would be better, but she finds it boring too and wasn't paying attention.

 

Unfortunately,  she is probably too old for SOTW to be of much interest.  (Or not yet old enough for it to be fun again, sort of like children’s books that adults can then appreciate, but aren’t really right for smart  preteens and teens) And probably  a little too young for Great Courses to be of interest or to hold her interest.  Though if you have audible you might try one like Espionage and see if by any chance she would be interested. 

Have you tried things like James Burke BBC series as videos? 

 

 

[Pen]

11 minutes ago, Paige said:

She wasn't really reading for information with that but to see the structure of the paper. It was kind of like, let's read this and see what we can make sense of and how academics organize their papers. Scientific papers almost always have the same organization and the structure was what I wanted her to see. 

 

That could be a bit like sitting a preschooler down to look at how a high school textbook is organized. 

It sounds more like a Mom driven thing, and not stage appropriate for your daughter.  

“Superior” or whatever level is tested on materials suited to the age and interest level of the child.  Some tests will show that a 4th grader is reading at 12th grade level, but meaning that they are doing as well on the material for 4th grade as an average 12th grader would. It doesn’t mean they are reading 12th grade material as well as an average 12th grader would. 

(And even Superior performance on PSAT intended for high schoolers, doesn’t equate to having ability or interest in reading an adult level scientific article.) 

Quote

Her handwriting is beautiful but reading about stealth dyslexia makes me think that is something older DS almost definitely has! I'm going to read.

 

Beautiful Handwriting does not preclude dyslexia.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

 

20 minutes ago, Paige said:

Example- Natalie has some nickels, Dirk has some dimes, and Quincy has some quarters. Dirk has 5 more dimes than Quincy has quarters. If Natalie gives Dirk a nickel, Dirk gives Quincy a dime, and Quincy gives Natalie a quarter, they will all have the same amount of money. How many did each have originally?

 

Ugh.  My eyes glazeth over.  That would have taken us a whole days math time too, I expect.  

 

20 minutes ago, Paige said:

I probably just got the problem wrong when I was a kid and moved on and didn't spend hours doing them over until I got the right answer. 

 

Maybe she needs to be able to to that too.  Have a set time to work on it and then to move on.  

Is she going STEM direction?  Maybe a different math would be a better fit for her?

[Pen]

I just tried it.  Quincy had 3 quarters to start? 

If so, rest could be worked out one by one from that, but I’m not sure if I set it up right for Quincy as x. And it seems tedious. 

[wendyroo]

15 minutes ago, Pen said:

I just tried it.  Quincy had 3 quarters to start? 

If so, rest could be worked out one by one from that, but I’m not sure if I set it up right for Quincy as x. And it seems tedious. 

Quincy had 4 quarters to start.

"Natalie has some nickels, Dirk has some dimes, and Quincy has some quarters.
Dirk has 5 more dimes than Quincy has quarters."
d = 5 + q

"If Natalie gives Dirk a nickel, Dirk gives Quincy a dime, and Quincy gives Natalie a quarter, they will all have the same amount of money."
We need to take away one coin from each person to be given to someone else.  So Natalie will have (n-1) nickels and so on.
Then we need to multiply that new number of coins by the value of those coins.  So The value of Natalie's nickels will be 5(n-1).
Then we need to add on the additional value of the coin each person is given.  So Natalie has her nickels and one quarter: 5(n-1) + 25.
Since we know this exchange gives everyone the same amount of money, we set those 3 equations equal to each other.

5(n-1) + 25 = 10(d-1) + 5 = 25(q-1) + 10
5n + 20 = 10d -5 = 25q - 15

It is easy to substitute d = 5 + q into 10d -5 and then set that equal to 25q - 15.
10(5 + q) - 5 = 25q - 15
50 + 10q - 5 = 25q - 15
10q + 45 = 25q - 15
60 = 15q
q = 4

Since d = 5 + q, d must = 9

Then we check that they each have the same amount of money and figure out how many nickels Natalie had.

If Quincy had 4 quarters, and then gave one away, he would have 75 cents.  And then Dirk gave him a dime for a total of 85 cents.
If Dirk had 9 dimes, and then gave one away, he would have 80 cents.  And then Natalie gave him a nickel for a total of 85 cents.
So 5n + 20 = 85
5n = 65
n = 13
So Natalie had 13 nickels, gave one away, and had 60 cents in nickels.  Then Quincy gave her a quarter for a total of 85 cents.

"How many did each have originally?"
Natalie = 13 nickels
Dirk = 9 dimes
Quincy = 4 quarters

[Pen]

It seems like work isn’t well targeted to her level?

Horrible Histories and SOTW seem more targeted to up to age 9 , unless studentbis remedial?  So too boring?

Then academic science article, too hard?

Writing with Style? Or Writing with Skill?  Skill seems to be for her level? 

Maybe letting her write fan fiction would be fine for writing.  Why are you against it?

Andvif she wants to read Harry Potter is that a bad thing?  

[ktgrok]

 There are some children he will throw with math challenges like that and will get them wrong and learn from it. There are other kids will be stressed out by it. And you absolutely cannot learn while that highly stressed. That is a brain thing. When you’re in fight or flight you cannot learn complicated things like mouth. The brain is too busy trying to get away from the scary thing. Which in this case, is math. So no wonder she isn’t focusing! I think you need to find something very different for her that is more at her level. And that reinforces the basics she might’ve missed while in public school. Kids like school when they are good at it. Set her up to succeed, not to fail. 

And definitely do some fluency tests and check her reading on nonsense words. She really is showing a lot of signs of a reading disability that she has been masking using intelligence alone. And if you decide to do more testing then you don’t have to tell her it is for a label. Just tell her that you want to find her strengths and weaknesses so  you can tailor her learning to what will work best for her.

[ktgrok]

Why on earth are you trying to show a 12-year-old how to structure a scientific paper? Why would she need to know that? Does she know how to structure a well written sentence? Can she write a cohesive paragraph? Work on those things at 12. The rest there is plenty of time for later.

[1shortmomto4]

I'm following along on this thread because my youngest has all these same traits.  If it is "boring" they shut down.  If you add in all the bells and whistles it is great for about 5 minutes and then back to boring.  I've done the reading, he's done the reading, we've done the reading - same results.  The one and only thing that produces any results is one that if ds is interested in the subject then all is great.  Yes, I know that real life isn't like that - sometimes you got to do the stuff you don't like or have an interest.  I just keep thinking if I just hand him a great book with interesting characters, theme, etc. that he'll just read and read and love life but nope, not unless it is something he totally has interest in and even then...

Algebra was a struggle but we've moved on to geometry and are using MUS.  I start new lessons on Monday and Monday and Tuesday are grumblefests and Wednesday the cloud begins to lift and I encourage him that he is getting it.  That he knows it, etc and by Friday all is mastered and then we start over again on Monday. 

He as I'm sure your dd are very smart cookies and trying to pull out that talent and help them use it in a way that will allow them to grow and mature and pursue their dreams - man, this is just plain hard!  I thought I was on to something with science (We are using Apologia's brand new 3d edition General Science - with all the bells and whistles) (I choose this in order to work on other skills like note taking and test taking because this is something I learned I needed to do sooner for better college prep) but he is now shutting down when I pull the book out.  Ugh!

Again, I've read it, he's read it, we've read it and the lecture video reinforces the info but if he isn't interested then he becomes Mr. Grumpy.  But I'm still plodding thru to try and work on other skills but sheesh, can't I just have one student that doesn't balk at what is assigned and just magically understands it and does the work with a smile.  Not today, not today,

I've no real issues but know you aren't alone is trying to figure out what is going on and finding something that works.

[shinyhappypeople]

23 hours ago, Paige said:

I recently brought my 12yo home from PS. She had been homeschooled through 3rd grade. We brought her home because of issues unrelated to her experience in PS. She was getting all As, no problems, top of the class, advanced classes, etc. When I had her at home when she was younger, she was probably the quickest to catch on to anything of all my kids but a little hard to keep on task. She was the youngest, so it wasn't unusual. My oldest is highly gifted and she was faster than he'd been at the same age, but she's never been tested. 

Now, she's really really struggling at home with the material. She says the work is harder, she can't read as fast as I expect, she doesn't understand, etc...From my perspective it looks like she's not really actually doing anything but staring into space when she's doing work independently, but when she's by my side and I'm keeping her on task she does great. She says she can't focus when she's alone (but she wants to do her work independently) and claims that despite her high grades at school she was barely keeping up. My oldest was recently diagnosed as ADHD so it made me think maybe she has the same issue. Does it sound like ADHD or is it a skills gap and I'm expecting too much?

Examples:

She says they never did word problems in school. (She's in Algebra and would have been in Algebra at PS this year-their best math student per the teacher last year) I find it hard to believe that they never did word problems in school but I know Algebra word problems require more patience than those in lower levels. I mean it's taking us days to do 2-3 Dolciani probems. Not even AOPS.

Reading- she'll take an hour to read 15-20 pages in a middle grade novel. I'm dying. Reading's never been her favorite thing but she can read things she's interested in with no problem. 

In other subjects it's similar. She's just taking way too long in every subject every day and I don't know if it's me or her. I would be perfectly fine lowering expectations and reteaching the basics if that's what she needs but it feels like it shouldn't be this way. She's not my first 7th grader and others who struggled more when younger, had an easier time with this stuff. 

Seeing what undiagnosed ADHD can did in an older teen when expectations increased with my DS, makes me concerned for her. On the other hand, maybe that's causing me to see things when DD is normal. I don't want to put her through testing or medication that makes her feel like she has a problem when she doesn't!

Would you get an eval, start meds, or wait and see? It could also be adjustment to being homeschooled again. The doctor unfortunately knows me well and said DD could come in, talk to her, and they'd consider a trial of medication without putting her through a full eval, but that's problematic in its own way. 

Dear Lord.  Has the doctor lost her mind?  The first line ADD med is usually Adderall.  It can be highly addictive. The right dosage will hopefully get a child with ADD up to normal. However, it will help any person focus better, so doing better while taking Adderall doesn't confirm an ADD diagnosis.  There is not a chance in hell I would allow my child to be prescribed ADD meds without a full evaluation.  Seriously, what is the doctor thinking?!

And... yes.  Do have her get a complete eval from a different doctor. She may have ADHD.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Paige said:

She was a hate to read kind of kid but has finally started to get into some books like Harry Potter.

Well there's your answer. Something is going on with her reading.

Fwiw, my ds does well on reading tests. There's nothing like being gifted with multiple choice options. He has enough prior knowledge to answer them without reading. He can fake out multiple choice expressive language tests too, and yes that's a thing, idiotic as it sounds. 

1 hour ago, Paige said:

I am a believer in labeling theory,

What is labeling theory?

1 hour ago, Paige said:

If she does have a problem, I'd have no issue with accepting a label, but I don't want her picking up ones that aren't true because of my own issues.

Remind me, how is going to a psychologist going to get her labels that aren't true? I mean, I'm with you, don't allow an MD to decide psychological issues, get psych evals, get full data, be accurate, be thorough.

1 hour ago, EKS said:

I wouldn't accept an ADHD diagnosis without looking into the possibility of dyslexia first.  

Bingo. ASSUMING the ADHD could actually be the MOST INCORRECT explanation.

My dd has a moderately bright IQ (not PG/HG) and significant ADHD-inattentive. Zero problems sitting reading. So to say the ADHD is why she's not reading really isn't correct. And without better testing, you don't know if it's decoding, a developmental vision issue, a language issue (narrative or syntax/vocabulary), inferencing, attending, or what.

1 hour ago, Paige said:

She had a bad year socially in school last year,

So maybe get pragmatics, narrative language, and the CELF Metalinguistics run as well. You could actually dig in and find out what's going on.

Sometimes what happens is the labels aren't very helpful. You can have sort of subclinical everything, have RELATIVE WEAKNESSES. It doesn't matter if she reads on grade level, if by IQ she wants to read higher. If her skills aren't matching where her brain wants to go, you still have a disability situation. Just may or may not get diagnosed with a label like SLD. If it doesn't, that doesn't mean it doesn't need some help. Without data, you don't even know what the issue is or issues are. 

If you want to start conservatively, get her eyes checked ($100) by a developmental optometrist and get a CTOPP run ($70 with a tutor). You already know the ADHD inattentive, but you'd like to know what ELSE is going on. So then you could check for retained reflexes (free) and see if your insurance would cover an SLP for the pragmatics, narrative, and metalinguistics testing. They'll also have tests for inferences and other things that affect reading comprehension. There are SLPs who specialize in literacy, and around here they bill at less than HALF of what a neuropsych bills at and they do more useful testing. 

That would be your hit list of what you could get done on the work up to this slowly or less expensively. And the school could be compelled to do that testing if you had the evidence and if they owned the tests. They might not own them, sigh.

Then you'd be left with psych testing. She'll need it eventually for paper trail, and it would give you helpful info. But fat chance finding a neuropsych who actually does those other tests like the pragmatics, narrative language, and metalinguistics. That's all SLP. 

You really need some data at this point because without it you're just assuming and losing time assuming and letting her become more discouraged assuming. If you have an SLP run that testing (if you can find someone with the tests), you can't fake that. It's not like oh my mom persuaded the MD and he put me on ritalin. It's just she has the appropriate scores or she doesn't. It's not even really about labels, just more what is causing the issues and what could we do to make things go better. So if you want to avoid labels right now, that's another way.

[PeterPan]

On the meds, at this age they are probably going to say XR, time release meds, and they cannot be insuflated, etc., decreasing the potential for abuse. Also, I think in general docs would rather start with a ritalin-type drug. Our doc offered us both and we went with Vyvanse because it has the safest, most even delivery system. 

You can also try a small, small dose of caffeine (per charts you can google and find online) and see if it helps the inattention a little.

Meds could also decrease some of the anxiety you're seeing by improving competence.

Don't let the meds rabbit trail waste a lot of time that should be spent getting evals to find out what's actually going on. The meds will help the inattention part, but they won't change issues with decoding, processing speed, narrative language, inferencing, whatever else is going on.

[Pen]

“What does your dd actually LIKE? Is she spending part of her day on something she's really into? Is there a better way to harness that and bringing it into the other subjects? Like with my dd, I brought her humanities into the science. But you could do the opposite, bringing science into the humanities, absolutely. You just need a sense of what she's into or what makes her light up. Then take that thing that makes her light up and bring it into her other areas where she's dull and flat and lifeless. There are ways people who like what she likes and thinks the way she thinks engage with those topics, so it's valid to try a new angle, something way off the beaten path or different.

Maybe it's years of PS but she doesn't care about anything much. She likes volunteering but has no target- she just likes helping. She is only obsessed with celebrities and youtube, and fanfiction for shows I am too old to see value in. I'm not a boomer, but ok, boomer to me in regards to her interests right now. We started a new club for kids in our area that she's excited about. It's service oriented so when it gets moving I think she'll be into that.” 

 

Try to see the positive!!!

She loves helping!!!   Wow, that’s fabulous wonderful!!!

 

She wants to write fan fiction : Yay, hurrah, she wants to do some writing!

She wants to read Harry Potter: Yay, hurrah, she wants to read something!

This is all GOOD!  No, GREAT!!!  Especially wanting to help!!! That she is Liking helping!!!   Please, Give time and energy to being grateful for these positives!!!

 

some of us are reading about Howard Glasser’s Nurtured Heart Approach.  I recommend it!! 

 

 

 

 

Btw: when my son was at a homeschool co-op around age your dd is now, they got involved in a project with helping a nonprofit organization to build small portable units for the homeless.  It combined  irl social studies learning about problems homeless people face, math as irl geometry and building related math.  Life skills in handling power tools etc.  it was a great unit!!! 

[Pen]

I also recommend the book The Book Whisperer. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

Quincy had 4 quarters to start.

"Natalie has some nickels, Dirk has some dimes, and Quincy has some quarters.
Dirk has 5 more dimes than Quincy has quarters."
d = 5 + q

"If Natalie gives Dirk a nickel, Dirk gives Quincy a dime, and Quincy gives Natalie a quarter, they will all have the same amount of money."
We need to take away one coin from each person to be given to someone else.  So Natalie will have (n-1) nickels and so on.
Then we need to multiply that new number of coins by the value of those coins.  So The value of Natalie's nickels will be 5(n-1).
Then we need to add on the additional value of the coin each person is given.  So Natalie has her nickels and one quarter: 5(n-1) + 25.
Since we know this exchange gives everyone the same amount of money, we set those 3 equations equal to each other.

5(n-1) + 25 = 10(d-1) + 5 = 25(q-1) + 10
5n + 20 = 10d -5 = 25q - 15

It is easy to substitute d = 5 + q into 10d -5 and then set that equal to 25q - 15.
10(5 + q) - 5 = 25q - 15
50 + 10q - 5 = 25q - 15
10q + 45 = 25q - 15
60 = 15q
q = 4

Since d = 5 + q, d must = 9

Then we check that they each have the same amount of money and figure out how many nickels Natalie had.

If Quincy had 4 quarters, and then gave one away, he would have 75 cents.  And then Dirk gave him a dime for a total of 85 cents.
If Dirk had 9 dimes, and then gave one away, he would have 80 cents.  And then Natalie gave him a nickel for a total of 85 cents.
So 5n + 20 = 85
5n = 65
n = 13
So Natalie had 13 nickels, gave one away, and had 60 cents in nickels.  Then Quincy gave her a quarter for a total of 85 cents.

"How many did each have originally?"
Natalie = 13 nickels
Dirk = 9 dimes
Quincy = 4 quarters

 

Cool! thanks!  I set it up wrong.  Glad that’s not a math program I have to do!

[PeterPan]

Call me crazy, but is op feeling kinda overwhelmed and that's why there's no energy to put positive spins on things? I mean, it takes time (and mental energy) to think through this stuff and maybe time is what she's low on. For me I usually take a board break, go take some long walks, eat a carton of ice cream, pray, shower, whatever, and eventually my mind clears of all the noise and it comes. If she's driving kids to therapies, then she may be pulled a lot of directions. It was hard for me even to juggle two kids with stuff, let alone more.

[Paige]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

That could be a bit like sitting a preschooler down to look at how a high school textbook is organized. 

It sounds more like a Mom driven thing, and not stage appropriate for your daughter.  

“Superior” or whatever level is tested on materials suited to the age and interest level of the child.  Some tests will show that a 4th grader is reading at 12th grade level, but meaning that they are doing as well on the material for 4th grade as an average 12th grader would. It doesn’t mean they are reading 12th grade material as well as an average 12th grader would. 

(And even Superior performance on PSAT intended for high schoolers, doesn’t equate to having ability or interest in reading an adult level scientific article.) 

 

Beautiful Handwriting does not preclude dyslexia.

It was an assignment as part of her outsourced science class for middle schoolers that I was helping her with.

[Paige]

2 hours ago, 1shortmomto4 said:

I'm following along on this thread because my youngest has all these same traits.  If it is "boring" they shut down.  If you add in all the bells and whistles it is great for about 5 minutes and then back to boring.  I've done the reading, he's done the reading, we've done the reading - same results.  The one and only thing that produces any results is one that if ds is interested in the subject then all is great.  Yes, I know that real life isn't like that - sometimes you got to do the stuff you don't like or have an interest.  I just keep thinking if I just hand him a great book with interesting characters, theme, etc. that he'll just read and read and love life but nope, not unless it is something he totally has interest in and even then...

Algebra was a struggle but we've moved on to geometry and are using MUS.  I start new lessons on Monday and Monday and Tuesday are grumblefests and Wednesday the cloud begins to lift and I encourage him that he is getting it.  That he knows it, etc and by Friday all is mastered and then we start over again on Monday. 

He as I'm sure your dd are very smart cookies and trying to pull out that talent and help them use it in a way that will allow them to grow and mature and pursue their dreams - man, this is just plain hard!  I thought I was on to something with science (We are using Apologia's brand new 3d edition General Science - with all the bells and whistles) (I choose this in order to work on other skills like note taking and test taking because this is something I learned I needed to do sooner for better college prep) but he is now shutting down when I pull the book out.  Ugh!

Again, I've read it, he's read it, we've read it and the lecture video reinforces the info but if he isn't interested then he becomes Mr. Grumpy.  But I'm still plodding thru to try and work on other skills but sheesh, can't I just have one student that doesn't balk at what is assigned and just magically understands it and does the work with a smile.  Not today, not today,

I've no real issues but know you aren't alone is trying to figure out what is going on and finding something that works.

She sounds just like that. There probably are some minor skill deficits. She doesn't know how to study anything as she's never needed to. She doesn't know how to take notes. She said teachers just hand them notes in class and they never have to copy them or decide what's important. She doesn't know how to google sources outside of the school's portal or wherever they had them searching. She doesn't know how to make an outline before she writes...it's all little stuff that is adding up. Then add in that she's so much like DS who we missed ADHD in, and I'm wondering- is this what ADHD looks like in bright kids or is this normal 12yo recently home from homeschool and had a rough year stuff? 

2 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Dear Lord.  Has the doctor lost her mind?  The first line ADD med is usually Adderall.  It can be highly addictive. The right dosage will hopefully get a child with ADD up to normal. However, it will help any person focus better, so doing better while taking Adderall doesn't confirm an ADD diagnosis.  There is not a chance in hell I would allow my child to be prescribed ADD meds without a full evaluation.  Seriously, what is the doctor thinking?!

And... yes.  Do have her get a complete eval from a different doctor. She may have ADHD.  

That was my thought as well. I really wish we could see someone else but there's nobody else at all within an hour and as often as we'd be going, I can't do it. I'm not trying to put a negative spin on things- DD is great. She's normally the easiest kid I have and flies under the radar because she needs so little support. Now that she's home, I'm seeing maybe she could use some more support and I'm really only talking about the relevant complaints. It's completely possible she reads fine and balks because she dislikes it. Not everyone likes to read. 

The Horrible Histories was her choice and it was because of a specific subject matter and she wanted something easy. She disliked it but preferred to keep with it rather than start something new.

17 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Call me crazy, but is op feeling kinda overwhelmed and that's why there's no energy to put positive spins on things? I mean, it takes time (and mental energy) to think through this stuff and maybe time is what she's low on. For me I usually take a board break, go take some long walks, eat a carton of ice cream, pray, shower, whatever, and eventually my mind clears of all the noise and it comes. If she's driving kids to therapies, then she may be pulled a lot of directions. It was hard for me even to juggle two kids with stuff, let alone more.

Yeah, not to get into details but her issues are so minor compared to what's going on with the other 3 that the time I have to put into this is limited. She's happier at home. Her social issues were not because of social deficits but mean girl politics. 

There's no way we're pursuing a lot of testing when she's mostly fine and I'm kind of thinking out loud here. Maybe it sounds worse on paper. There's only so many hours in the day and I am skeptical of the worth of psych's anyway after seeing several over the years, getting "full evals," including neuropsych, and coming away with a different diagnosis every time. It's not that it's a waste of time...but it can be and it can be worse to have a wrong diagnosis than none. We have to triage the kids here. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeling_theory

The math problem is not a big deal. I decided to sit on the word problem sections until her comfort with them improved because I did not do that with DS (or myself as a kid) and I saw how a weakness in that area kept causing us to have a harder time with problems later on. You have to do a lot of problems to see the patterns- I'd rather she see the patterns now while we're working on easier problems. We have so much time with her- no need to rush- so we camped on the word problems. I don't see a lot of anxiety with her. My older ones have serious anxiety and she's not like that. She was confident in the other sections. I still feel like working through them and coming to the other side saying, I'm good at this (which is where we are today after a rough week or so), is better than leaving it alone and moving on so she thinks "I'm terrible at word problems" and tenses up every time she sees one. She's got it now and the substitution she's learning to think about will help when she gets into factoring and other areas that aren't even word problems. 

[Paige]

Boiled down to the minimum-

It's not any specific subject- it's a general complaint of if she's not directly supervised, she's not doing what she's supposed to for her homework. She'll say she did it, but whether it's outsourced or not, she hasn't done it. She'll lie if she thinks there's no immediate checking to see if it's done. She's not doing anything else with her time either- mostly staring into space or doodling so she won't get into trouble for using electronics. She wants to do well. Math is the only subject she consistently does if left alone.

When I see what she hasn't done and I'm like "WTH?" (not literally) She says it's too hard and she doesn't know what to do. I give her a book to read- go read....ok...it wasn't read. I give her a paragraph to write....not done when I check in. But she can do it all and do it mostly really well with little assistance as long as someone is in the room with her. She just wants someone in the room, but she wants them to be quiet. With a baby brother, however, it's not really possible to have someone there all the time who is also not distracting, so we need a compromise. 

I'm not going to say she's lazy, and she's not a bad kid or defiant or someone who doesn't care. I don't believe kids choose to fail. 

Is this what ADHD looks like? That's my main question.

 

[bensonduck]

Stepping in gently as this is not a forum I typically post in. When was the last time you had her vision checked? Some of the issues with reading sound a lot like one of my kids before they got their prescription corrected.  Just a thought. 

[katilac]

On 11/9/2019 at 1:36 PM, EKS said:

I don't think that being unable to work independently for long periods is in and of itself a sign of ADHD.

Certainly not at 12. There are practically daily posts on these boards about getting tweens and teens to work independently. Kids in b&m school do not work independently very often, they have a ton of scaffolding and support (plus a roomful of peers working on the same thing). 

15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 I'm just thinking through this out loud here, not meaning to criticize so much as just work through it. That is not an age-appropriate work style, so it begs the question of WHY she needs that much support. That alone tells you she's diagnosable.  

I strongly disagree. Like I said above, we routinely have parents posting about tweens and teens not working independently and taking all day to do the work (not on the LC board specifically, on all of them). Kids have tons of oversight and support in b&m schools, and it is super common for parents to be there every step of the way for middle school homework. That doesn't mean she isn't ADD, but needing someone at her elbow to get work done does not mean ADD or anything else. 

Sometimes it's boredom and/or immaturity. It's hard to make yourself do something you don't enjoy! I mean, I should be working out right now, it's on my task list, yet here I sit, lol. It's much harder when you're 12, and talking to Alexa is more enticing than math problems. My kids would not have done well with that! 

Sometimes it's personality. One of my kids needed someone at her elbow at 12 for sure, not because she didn't know what to do next but because it was impossible for her to work at home if someone wasn't on hand to see her beautiful Q or listen to how ridiculous a certain question was. Even as a senior in high school, we did history, literature, and science side-by-side. Now, in college, she is surrounded by fellow students both in class and out, because she does the vast majority of her work either in a study group or sitting with friends. If no one happens to be available, she's peppering me with texts, lol. That's her personality, that's how she learns best and that's how she enjoys learning. And she's killing it in college, it works. Her report card would have definitely stated, "Lucy needs to be spend more time working and less time socializing" had she been in school, but it wouldn't have changed anything 😄

4 hours ago, kand said:

Besides that, I wanted to say that if math has been going well until now, and she’s mostly doing it right except for making small errors and sign errors and such, that’s super typical for a kid in algebra one. I think even more so when they are young for algebra.  

Absolutely. 12/13/14 are notorious ages for careless mistakes. 

3 hours ago, Paige said:

 Maybe it's a combination- there are skill deficits for my expectations and gaps from the school's curricula and she might be inattentive ADD, and puberty added in the mix makes it more fun?

Certainly could be, and it's certainly possible that the work is harder than what she had in school. If you could get your hands on some texts/examples from the school, it might give you a better feel for what she would be doing there (not to say you should duplicate that, but it's good to know if the work actually is harder or if that's her perception). 

I'd keep an eye open and make some specific notes each day. When is she most distracted? What work did she do well? What work did she enjoy? Overall day vs sleeping and eating patterns, that kind of thing. This will help change things around if that's what's needed, and will be a nice bank of info if you do pursue a dx down the road. 

3 hours ago, Paige said:

I think it's boredom. She has trouble focusing and making herself read if she's not really into it. She doesn't like to sit there. That's why I thought SOTW on audio while she drew would be better, but she finds it boring too and wasn't paying attention.

Math isn't taking all day on 2-3 problems but rather after a couple of hours we need to drop it and move on, so it's taking a whole day's math time.

Example- Natalie has some nickels, Dirk has some dimes, and Quincy has some quarters.  

SOTW is likely to bore a 12-yr-old, especially if they are doing it alone. List a few texts and methods and ask dd for her input. Look up the old school WTM way of doing history in the book, it gives you so much freedom! You don't have to follow it exactly, just glean ideas. Maybe spend some time focusing on the people and personalities of history (reading more than one autobiography covering the same event/era can be fascinating). If she has a negative feeling bc of a rough start in history this year, you can switch time periods for a fresh start, or look at a topic over time rather than one specific period. One thing I've done is to look at protest movements at different times through the lens of folk and protest music. Music often resonates on a more emotional level and provides a great snapshot of moments in time, and connects 'old' movements and music with modern ones. Another thing is to make judicious use of YouTube clips and such for more modern history. She can watch a man face down a tank in Tiananmen Square, see raw footage of the Rodney King riots, hear famous speeches, watch news footage of Kent State, leading to great discussions. What's worth protesting? Getting arrested for? Dying? What protests are going on right now? 

It's likely she is bored, ADD or not, and I would really work towards engaging with her directly, lots of discussion and provocative questions, as many hands-on projects as possible (gardening and nature study for science, live performances for literature, maybe even some practical math through the holidays). The 'schooled' mindset can be hard to escape. 

Her interests are absolutely fine, though. Let her free time be hers. I rarely pulled my kids' interests into school (lord knows I did not want to read their fanfic, I think that might have traumatized me), but I would do things like scale down their writing in school if they were doing a bunch independently. I went by observation for this, definitely not "do x amount of writing and you can skip y in school." 

Word problems in math: I've tutored a lot of kids in math. One of the most effective things is to remove the pressure and model things step by step. You start with presenting a problem and asking them to think about it a bit, maybe make a few notes of the information they have. Then, lead them through the solution. Depending on the current anxiety/frustration level, I may do quite a few verbally (or with me doing all the writing) first. Then move toward having them decide what the problem is actually asking for. When they can do this fairly well, start having them write out the problem with as much guidance as they need (just tell them everything for the first one so they can model successfully solving a problem). Then start asking them for more input verbally (only writing when they know it's correct). Also, preview all word problems! Some are nonsensical, truly. They are unclear, they use bad grammar, they use jargon, they overcomplicate the problem. If you have trouble following the solution, it's not a good problem to practice with. Only use solid and understandable problems that ask a sensible question. There will be plenty of time later to prep specifically for word problems that appear on standardized tests. 

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 Beautiful Handwriting does not preclude dyslexia.

I've heard people say this before but I've never seen someone with dyslexia who didn't also have horrible handwriting, lol. 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Paige said:

It was an assignment as part of her outsourced science class for middle schoolers that I was helping her with.

 

Ok.

 

I think you should probably get her evaluations if you possibly can.  There’s too much guessing at what could be going on. You need reliable outside evaluation to give info rather than guesses. 

I like the idea of telling her it’s to help guide you to appropriate materials. Which is in fact true.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

Certainly not at 12. There are practically daily posts on these boards about getting tweens and teens to work independently. Kids in b&m school do not work independently very often, they have a ton of scaffolding and support (plus a roomful of peers working on the same thing). 

I strongly disagree. Like I said above, we routinely have parents posting about tweens and teens not working independently and taking all day to do the work (not on the LC board specifically, on all of them). Kids have tons of oversight and support in b&m schools, and it is super common for parents to be there every step of the way for middle school homework. That doesn't mean she isn't ADD, but needing someone at her elbow to get work done does not mean ADD or anything else. 

Sometimes it's boredom and/or immaturity. It's hard to make yourself do something you don't enjoy! I mean, I should be working out right now, it's on my task list, yet here I sit, lol. It's much harder when you're 12, and talking to Alexa is more enticing than math problems. My kids would not have done well with that! 

Sometimes it's personality. One of my kids needed someone at her elbow at 12 for sure, not because she didn't know what to do next but because it was impossible for her to work at home if someone wasn't on hand to see her beautiful Q or listen to how ridiculous a certain question was. Even as a senior in high school, we did history, literature, and science side-by-side. Now, in college, she is surrounded by fellow students both in class and out, because she does the vast majority of her work either in a study group or sitting with friends. If no one happens to be available, she's peppering me with texts, lol. That's her personality, that's how she learns best and that's how she enjoys learning. And she's killing it in college, it works. Her report card would have definitely stated, "Lucy needs to be spend more time working and less time socializing" had she been in school, but it wouldn't have changed anything 😄

Absolutely. 12/13/14 are notorious ages for careless mistakes. 

Certainly could be, and it's certainly possible that the work is harder than what she had in school. If you could get your hands on some texts/examples from the school, it might give you a better feel for what she would be doing there (not to say you should duplicate that, but it's good to know if the work actually is harder or if that's her perception). 

I'd keep an eye open and make some specific notes each day. When is she most distracted? What work did she do well? What work did she enjoy? Overall day vs sleeping and eating patterns, that kind of thing. This will help change things around if that's what's needed, and will be a nice bank of info if you do pursue a dx down the road. 

SOTW is likely to bore a 12-yr-old, especially if they are doing it alone. List a few texts and methods and ask dd for her input. Look up the old school WTM way of doing history in the book, it gives you so much freedom! You don't have to follow it exactly, just glean ideas. Maybe spend some time focusing on the people and personalities of history (reading more than one autobiography covering the same event/era can be fascinating). If she has a negative feeling bc of a rough start in history this year, you can switch time periods for a fresh start, or look at a topic over time rather than one specific period. One thing I've done is to look at protest movements at different times through the lens of folk and protest music. Music often resonates on a more emotional level and provides a great snapshot of moments in time, and connects 'old' movements and music with modern ones. Another thing is to make judicious use of YouTube clips and such for more modern history. She can watch a man face down a tank in Tiananmen Square, see raw footage of the Rodney King riots, hear famous speeches, watch news footage of Kent State, leading to great discussions. What's worth protesting? Getting arrested for? Dying? What protests are going on right now? 

It's likely she is bored, ADD or not, and I would really work towards engaging with her directly, lots of discussion and provocative questions, as many hands-on projects as possible (gardening and nature study for science, live performances for literature, maybe even some practical math through the holidays). The 'schooled' mindset can be hard to escape. 

Her interests are absolutely fine, though. Let her free time be hers. I rarely pulled my kids' interests into school (lord knows I did not want to read their fanfic, I think that might have traumatized me), but I would do things like scale down their writing in school if they were doing a bunch independently. I went by observation for this, definitely not "do x amount of writing and you can skip y in school." 

Word problems in math: I've tutored a lot of kids in math. One of the most effective things is to remove the pressure and model things step by step. You start with presenting a problem and asking them to think about it a bit, maybe make a few notes of the information they have. Then, lead them through the solution. Depending on the current anxiety/frustration level, I may do quite a few verbally (or with me doing all the writing) first. Then move toward having them decide what the problem is actually asking for. When they can do this fairly well, start having them write out the problem with as much guidance as they need (just tell them everything for the first one so they can model successfully solving a problem). Then start asking them for more input verbally (only writing when they know it's correct). Also, preview all word problems! Some are nonsensical, truly. They are unclear, they use bad grammar, they use jargon, they overcomplicate the problem. If you have trouble following the solution, it's not a good problem to practice with. Only use solid and understandable problems that ask a sensible question. There will be plenty of time later to prep specifically for word problems that appear on standardized tests. 

 

Lots of good points. 

1 hour ago, katilac said:

 

I've heard people say this before but I've never seen someone with dyslexia who didn't also have horrible handwriting, lol. 

 

My son has had ability to write beautifully but without understanding. It was handwriting as an art form unconnected to language meaning.