Can we talk about the John Crist situation without Christian bashing?

[Frances]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:38 AM, BlsdMama said:

I also don't know if his career will survive this and it's because most people differentiate between:
 

1. I did this and I am so sorry

vs.

2. I got busted for this and, oh, by the way, I am so sorry.

 

I’m honestly perplexed by this. Is it because he’s just a comedian, so doesn’t really have any real power or influence? Or because being a Christian was central to his act? Many Christians seems to regularly not only give a pass to very powerful people who regularly go against Christian teachings, sexual or otherwise, but even enthusiastically defend and support them. And most of the time these powerful people aren’t even admitting their sins. But I guess their Christian defenders and supporters are getting more than a few laughs in exchange, so maybe that explains the different treatment?

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

The woman Kate in the story seems almost unbelievably naive and gullible. Who ever taught her that Christians don’t intentionally do bad things? Talk about being set up to be taken advantage of in one way or another. Has she never heard of sin?

I think the idea that Christians don't intentionally do bad things is more common than you imagine. It's why businesses will list themselves in a Christian business directory or otherwise advertise that they are Christian. It's why so many parents worry less when their kids are at a youth group activity rather than elsewhere. It's why one of my local homeschool groups puts on a dance that is open to those outside the group, 'as long as they are of good Christian character.' 

ime, the more someone lives in a Christian 'bubble,' the more likely they are to believe this. 

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I’m honestly perplexed by this. Is it because he’s just a comedian, so doesn’t really have any real power or influence? Or because being a Christian was central to his act?  

Being a Christian was central to his act. I couldn't quite figure him out at first - my dd sent me his 'every parent at Disney World' clip and I thought it was funny so looked at some other clips. It was easy to see a lot of it had a Christian theme, but who was the audience? He's not Ricky Gervais level, but a lot of his bits seem mean-spirited enough that I didn't expect Christians to be fans. I was wrong, lol. 

[Bluegoat]

7 hours ago, Meriwether said:

I just googled him to see who you were talking about. The first "people also asked" question was "Is Mike Holmes married?"

 

I guess he would have a lot of scope to be involved in some sort of home reno sex scandal.  

[MercyA]

You can be sorry you got caught AND really and truly sorry for your actions at the same time. We can't see inside his head or his heart. I'm hoping for his own good and others' good that he is truly repentant. 

I'd never heard of the guy before this thread. 

[Garga]

7 hours ago, Frances said:

The woman Kate in the story seems almost unbelievably naive and gullible. Who ever taught her that Christians don’t intentionally do bad things? Talk about being set up to be taken advantage of in one way or another. Has she never heard of sin?

She was pretty young, wasn’t she?  I used to be that naive and not about Christians in particular.  Growing up, the adults in my life were all nice to me and I figured that the vast majority of people were good and decent once they were grown. I knew that teenagers could be rotten, but I figured they were being a “rebellious teen” and would out grow it. 

I remember a friend of mine at age 17 being interested in a boy and telling her family, “He’s a good kid. He’s an eagle scout,” as if that would seal the deal that he simply *must* be an upstanding and decent person because he was an eagle scout.  I was 18 and figured that made sense.  Of course, her dad and my mom both snorted about the “good eagle scout” line and tried to explain to her that just because someone is an eagle scout, it doesn’t always mean they’re a good guy to date.  

There are a lot of young people who are sheltered and while they know there are bad people somewhere out there, they’re surprised when they meet one of them in person for the first time.  My own sons have never run into anyone who is manipulative and would intentionally take advantage of them.  They know people like that are out there, but knowing that there are people like that out there is different from confronting one.  It can take some time for it to finally sink in, “Hey...they guy is one of those bad people I heard mom warn me about!”  

It sounds like Kate figured it out within a day of meeting him, so I think she did pretty good in wising up to what was going on relatively quickly.  

Edited November 10, 2019 by Garga

[Garga]

3 hours ago, StellaM said:

Is this really a thing people are taught to believe? It seems very harmful, given there are trustworthy and non-trustworthy people of all faiths and none.

 

I was never expressly taught this view, but I did hold this view until in my early twenties, at least in reference to adults.  The adults in my life were kind to me and protective of me, so that’s what I figured most adults were like.  It was surprising to meet adults that were total jerks or manipulative, etc.  In that regard, my childhood was good—that the adults in my life were good to me.  I wasn’t abused.  

My mother did warn me about bad intentioned people and did try to teach me to be wise about people, but it was hard to fully understand what she meant until I met non-trustworthy people on my own.  I believed her that they were out there, but at the same time, I didn’t believe it.  If that makes sense—it’s one thing to know something is a fact because Mom tells you, but it’s another thing to know something is a fact from direct experience.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Garga

[Garga]

11 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I am always happy when I hear someone had a great childhood 🙂 That's how it should be!

My surprise was more that people might be explicitly taught 'Oh, if they are a Christian, you can trust them!' (Christian in the context of this thread, I'd be just as surprised to hear a secular parent say 'Oh, if they are secular, they can be trusted!')

To me that's just - wow - that's not a helpful thing to teach young people. Many people are trustworthy, but not on the basis of a declared faith (or lack thereof), more on the basis of observable, repeated trustworthy behaviours, kwim? There are very trustworthy Christians out there for sure, but oh my goodness, if the trials here into child sex abuse and the Church has taught me anything, it's that professing a faith isn't any kind of guarantee.

I wonder, too, if people are taught that “if they’re a Christian, you can trust them”?  It’s so dangerous if people are teaching their kids this. I have tried to expressly teach my own sons that that’s not always the case. I sure hope that now that so many scandals have come to light that this isn’t being taught.  There are even scriptures to beware wolves in sheep clothing and about judging a tree by its fruit—look at the person’s actions (fruit) to see if they’re trustworthy, etc, rather than blind trust.

I know my one son really liked John Crist’s humor. It’s with a heavy heart that I’m going to share the articles in this thread with him for the exact reason that I don’t want him to think he can trust someone is “good” just because they’re Christian. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Garga

[Frances]

57 minutes ago, Garga said:

She was pretty young, wasn’t she?  I used to be that naive and not about Christians in particular.  Growing up, the adults in my life were all nice to me and I figured that the vast majority of people were good and decent once they were grown. I knew that teenagers could be rotten, but I figured they were being a “rebellious teen” and would out grow it. 

I remember a friend of mine at age 17 being interested in a boy and telling her family, “He’s a good kid. He’s an eagle scout,” as if that would seal the deal that he simply *must* be an upstanding and decent person because he was an eagle scout.  I was 18 and figured that made sense.  Of course, her dad and my mom both snorted about the “good eagle scout” line and tried to explain to her that just because someone is an eagle scout, it doesn’t always mean they’re a good guy to date.  

There are a lot of young people who are sheltered and while they know there are bad people somewhere out there, they’re surprised when they meet one of them in person for the first time.  My own sons have never run into anyone who is manipulative and would intentionally take advantage of them.  They know people like that are out there, but knowing that there are people like that out there is different from confronting one.  It can take some time for it to finally sink in, “Hey...they guy is one of those bad people I heard mom warn me about!”  

It sounds like Kate figured it out within a day of meeting him, so I think she did pretty good in wising up to what was going on relatively quickly.  

I don’t think the article gave her age. I guess I assumed she was at least 21 since she was drinking with him and didn’t seem bothered by it. She also mentioned working on her career. I also grew up pretty sheltered just by virtue of living in a very small town and spending most of my time there or with extended family in other small towns or the countryside. Virtually everyone was Christian. IRL, I was never really exposed to anything inappropriate or bad. Still, I don’t recall ever thinking or being taught someone didn’t intentionally do bad things simply because they were Christian. I was taught that everyone sinned. And you certainly didn’t trust a man you just met enough to be alone with him, especially if alcohol was involved.

Edited to add that even as a young teen, I would have been snorting right along with the parents of the young girl who wanted to date an Eagle Scout and assumed therefore he must be a good person.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Frances

[Liz CA]

Nothing new here. Didn't know of him but Christian or no Christian, what does it matter? Can't speak to how serious / remorseful he truly is since I don't know him personally. Just like many before him, he is doing his Mea Culpa now - perhaps in hopes it will save his career, perhaps not. I agree with those who have expressed surprise that there still seems to be a notion that Christians don't do these kind of things. We have had so many examples of Christian leaders doing "this kind of thing." It can hardly come as a surprise.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Liz CA

[maize]

5 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I am always happy when I hear someone had a great childhood 🙂 That's how it should be!

My surprise was more that people might be explicitly taught 'Oh, if they are a Christian, you can trust them!' (Christian in the context of this thread, I'd be just as surprised to hear a secular parent say 'Oh, if they are secular, they can be trusted!')

To me that's just - wow - that's not a helpful thing to teach young people. Many people are trustworthy, but not on the basis of a declared faith (or lack thereof), more on the basis of observable, repeated trustworthy behaviours, kwim? There are very trustworthy Christians out there for sure, but oh my goodness, if the trials here into child sex abuse and the Church has taught me anything, it's that professing a faith isn't any kind of guarantee.

I don't think it has to be taught. It is a natural in-group bias--these people can be trusted because they are my people.

[DawnM]

20 hours ago, sassenach said:

https://www.charismanews.com/us/78703-john-crist-cancels-2019-tour-dates-after-reports-of-sexting-harassment-manipulation

Here's the original story that broke this all open. Very detailed and very well-reported. 

 

That all makes me sad.

For the record, from what John has said in his comedy, he was a homeschool kid, from the Atlanta area and I think his family has 8 kids.  His father was a pastor.

I think we, as parents, don't ever want to believe that our child could struggle with something like this and I want to believe that I have raised my boys to respect women, but something about reading this article makes my heart break for his family in their dealing with all of this.

[ktgrok]

28 minutes ago, DawnM said:

 

That all makes me sad.

For the record, from what John has said in his comedy, he was a homeschool kid, from the Atlanta area and I think his family has 8 kids.  His father was a pastor.

I think we, as parents, don't ever want to believe that our child could struggle with something like this and I want to believe that I have raised my boys to respect women, but something about reading this article makes my heart break for his family in their dealing with all of this.

Maybe. Or maybe his family is where he learned this attitude about women. I mean, remember the swimmer that raped a woman and his father was all indignant his son was going to have his life ruined over a few minutes of action?

 

[ktgrok]

I have to say, did anyone else get the vibe that he was actually using the "I'm a sex addict" line as a way to manipulate women into sleeping with him or at least not reporting his behavior? 

[DawnM]

5 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Maybe. Or maybe his family is where he learned this attitude about women. I mean, remember the swimmer that raped a woman and his father was all indignant his son was going to have his life ruined over a few minutes of action?

 

 

Maybe, although that wasn't the feeling I got when he talked about his youth or parents.  But I have no proof.

[unsinkable]

I just read the beginning of the article...And what Katie describes that happened is peppered with red flag after red flag after red flag. 

She also said she kept thinking, "This is kind of weird." 

It is those red flags that I taught my kids to notice, and that voice ( their own voice) that says...this is weird, this isn't right, what is going on here?

I never taught them...Trust someone bc they belong to XYZ group of bc it is Cousin So-n-So. 

I taught my kids to be on the lookout for actions. 

I know that this doesn't always work. That some predators hide their nature too well. And that in some situations, there is no warning. 

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I have to say, did anyone else get the vibe that he was actually using the "I'm a sex addict" line as a way to manipulate women into sleeping with him or at least not reporting his behavior? 

I guess I didn’t get that vibe, but I did find it very interesting that Nora, who he flirted with and called to share sexual exploits with, said that as far as she knew, he remained a virgin and didn’t actually go as far as intercourse. As if that even matters when he’s being such a disgusting, manipulative creep and bragging about it to another woman. It seems like he must have picked up some twisted beliefs about women and sex somewhere along the way.

[Frances]

12 hours ago, maize said:

I don't think it has to be taught. It is a natural in-group bias--these people can be trusted because they are my people.

I think in order for this to apply, though, there has to be an out-group. So I can see it more where a person’s particular religion or denomination is in the minority or is one of several very distinct religious groups or is somehow discriminated against. Perhaps that’s why I never thought this way about Christians growing up, virtually everyone I knew was some type of Christian. Being raised Catholic, I certainly didn’t trust Catholics more than anyone else.

[Bluegoat]

I think some people are just naturally more suspicious of people's motives, or maybe they are better at reading cues or something like that. Although age does make a big difference, you can learn a lot over time.

 

[StaceyinLA]

On 11/8/2019 at 7:56 AM, ByeByeMartha said:

I think that there are more men struggling with sexual sin today than we are aware of. 

 

I think there are many women struggling with this very same thing. I'm in no way victim blaming because I'll admit to not knowing the whole story, but women participating in sex acts in order to gain something isn't real classy on their part either. I'm disturbed by the number of women who willingly do these types of things.

[katilac]

18 hours ago, StellaM said:

Maybe I'm just not very trusting - I wouldn't trust an atheist bloke as far as my little finger!

Why not? 

18 hours ago, StellaM said:

Also, his sister has to be his chaperone on tour ? I mean, what's that all about ? That was also weird.

'Accountability partners' are a big thing in American Christian fundamentalism. 

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

I think there are many women struggling with this very same thing. I'm in no way victim blaming because I'll admit to not knowing the whole story, but women participating in sex acts in order to gain something isn't real classy on their part either. I'm disturbed by the number of women who willingly do these types of things.

That was phrased poorly in the one article. The other clarified that first he would give them the free ticket, then later try to use that to guilt them into coming to "hang out" at his hotel room. Same as the old, "but I bought you dinner!" routine from a generation ago. They were not transacting sex for tickets - they accepted the gift of a ticket and then he used that to try to say they owed him. Blech. Not a new thing. 

[BlsdMama]

On 11/9/2019 at 3:56 PM, Frances said:

I’m honestly perplexed by this. Is it because he’s just a comedian, so doesn’t really have any real power or influence? Or because being a Christian was central to his act? Many Christians seems to regularly not only give a pass to very powerful people who regularly go against Christian teachings, sexual or otherwise, but even enthusiastically defend and support them. And most of the time these powerful people aren’t even admitting their sins. But I guess their Christian defenders and supporters are getting more than a few laughs in exchange, so maybe that explains the different treatment?

Legit questions - I’m not sure I’m the girl to answer the question. I don’t “fangirl” much tbh. I didn’t even do New Kid in the Block posters as a middle schooler. Essentially, the scenario where I allow manipulation for a $25 ticket OR where I give a fella pass on cr@ppy behavior because he’s amusing or the preaching is awesome or he has a catalog and promotes homeschooling, yada, yada, yada, is beyond my ability to fathom. 

 

I will admit to asking asking for a selfie with Andrew Pudewa once but that is the ultimate stretch of my fandom, lol.  

[StaceyinLA]

21 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

That was phrased poorly in the one article. The other clarified that first he would give them the free ticket, then later try to use that to guilt them into coming to "hang out" at his hotel room. Same as the old, "but I bought you dinner!" routine from a generation ago. They were not transacting sex for tickets - they accepted the gift of a ticket and then he used that to try to say they owed him. Blech. Not a new thing. 

 

Yeah - definitely a different scenario there. 

[StaceyinLA]

10 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Legit questions - I’m not sure I’m the girl to answer the question. I don’t “fangirl” much tbh. I didn’t even do New Kid in the Block posters as a middle schooler. Essentially, the scenario where I allow manipulation for a $25 ticket OR where I give a fella pass on cr@ppy behavior because he’s amusing or the preaching is awesome or he has a catalog and promotes homeschooling, yada, yada, yada, is beyond my ability to fathom. 

 

I will admit to asking asking for a selfie with Andrew Pudewa once but that is the ultimate stretch of my fandom, lol.  

 

I don’t really get this either, and even though his manipulating them because of a ticket is a different scenario than them sleeping with him for a ticket, I guess I just still don’t get it. You gave me a ticket. I don’t owe you **** is more along the lines of my way of thinking. 

[StaceyinLA]

8 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Because you don't just trust someone b/c they share an ideological outlook with you! 

It sounded a lot like he was outsourcing his own self-control and self-awareness to his sister - not cool.

 

I have a huge problem with this in Christian circles (and I AM a Christian, and I even like watching the Duggars). If you have a conviction to stay pure, but are unable to control it unless you’re being chaperoned, are you really that convicted? I have a serious problem with people not having personal responsibility.

[katilac]

4 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

 You gave me a ticket. I don’t owe you **** is more along the lines of my way of thinking. 

And that's the ideal response, but just because someone has a weakness doesn't mean it's okay for him to exploit it.

I think we also have to keep in mind that their responses are coming from a place likely influenced by fundamentalism and patriarchy. Girls are expected to 'stay sweet' and talking back to men is not expected. Drinking alcohol, even if forbidden, would often be seen as a more acceptable way to rebel than telling a man "I don't owe you ****." 

[KungFuPanda]

I HATE the "I admit I'm a flawed person" apologies that own up to nothing and leave lots of wiggle room for legal deniability.  They want the credit for taking responsibility without actually taking responsibility.

[katilac]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I HATE the "I admit I'm a flawed person" apologies that own up to nothing and leave lots of wiggle room for legal deniability.  They want the credit for taking responsibility without actually taking responsibility.

Right up there with "I'm not perfect." 

Everyone has flaws. No one is perfect. You are not gaining points by admitting that.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

 

Also it doesn’t take perfection to not be a sexual predator. Many non-perfect people are not sexual predators. Pretending that people are asking you to be perfect lets you off the hook for failing, since perfection is an unreasonable expectation. Which defects attention from the fact that what you actually failed at was the much more reasonable expectation that you not use your fame, status, and power to sexually prey on other people. 

Exactly. Goes back to the idea that being an alcoholic is one thing, robbing people to get their booze is another. If you are going around mugging people for booze/drugs even though you are more than able to pay for your own  you don't get to then just admit to having an alcohol problem. You have more to say sorry for than just the drinking. 

This guy could have just had consensual sex with people he found on whatever hook up app/wetsite, whatever. He didn't have lie, manipulate, etc. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Momto6inIN]

21 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I will admit to asking asking for a selfie with Andrew Pudewa once but that is the ultimate stretch of my fandom, lol.  

I will admit to fawning just a little bit over Dr Jay Wile when he judged our speech and debate tournament one year. 

No s@xual favors though!!! 😂