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Æthelthryth the Texan

Does this spelling program exist

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I have a ds who is a questioner, who essentially wants to know the etymology of every word on earth and likes to argue about the stupidity of some English spelling rules and how inefficient some spellings are. This is a first as my other kids don't really question why. It just is. He's a questioner of all things- I'm pretty sure he's leaning towards being an engineer. On the one hand, all of these rabbit trails of learning why a word is spelled a particular way and not another helps it stick in his head, but on the other hand it takes a lot of time I don't have right now. 

Is there a spelling program that groups words in a certain way, or even better has an etymology side box on specific words instead of just lists? All I really need are lists, not worksheets. He hates busy work and I have no desire for crossword puzzles, word finds, or word tiles--  and he's hated AAS so we dropped it. I simply want a list of words to go through- he does best memorizing them verbally, and only then at the end writing them down. Rainbow Resource has 59 pages of Spelling programs so I am in overwhelm and thought I'd ask here. 

And yes, he definitely needs a spelling program. Copy work alone isn't cutting it. He goes on auto pilot and doesn't digest what he's copying as far as it improving spelling.  He was a late reader fwiw, but once that clicked it clicked. But I wouldn't call him a natural speller- he's a phonetic speller, and always in a hurry and still needs more time on the spelling rules. 

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Rather than having a list of word origins in the spelling book, what about doing 2-3x/week for 10-15 min., a root-based Vocabulary program (aloud, rather than writing it out, to avoid busywork).

Or, perhaps "scratch that etymological itch" by taking 10 minutes on the first day of the new spelling list, DS picks 3 words, and together look them up in the dictionary (or online) for the word origin. That way he gets some of his questions answered, and it doesn't cost you more than an extra 10 minutes a week. It could also lead to some pretty fun and interesting conversations together... 😄 

As a side note, understanding the origin of a word often helps the spelling make since. For example, in English "when 2 vowels go walking, the first one does the talking" ... so for example, with the word meat, the long E sound is pronounced. In German, it's reversed, so the "second one does the talking" -- so a word like "thief" is pronounced with the long E, rather than a long I, because of its Germanic origin.

Probably NOT what you're looking for, but I find The ABCs and All Their Tricks to be an extremely helpful resource for understanding all of the different spellings for the different sounds -- a very brief (one sentence) explanation is given when the spelling is a pattern from a foreign language, and the word has been adopted into the English language, while retaining its original spelling....

Edited by Lori D.
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Just now, Lori D. said:

Rather than having a list of word origins in the spelling book, what about doing 2-3x/week for 10-15 min., a root-based Vocabulary program (aloud, rather than writing it out, to avoid busywork).

Or, perhaps "scratch that etymological itch" by taking 10 minutes on the first day of the new spelling list, DS picks 3 words, and together look them up in the dictionary (or online) for the word origin.

As a side note, understanding the origin of a word often helps the spelling make since. For example, in English "when 2 vowels go walking, the first one does the talking" ... so for example, with the word meat, the long E sound is pronounced. In German, it's reversed, so the "second one does the talking" -- so a word like "thief" is pronounced with the long E, rather than a long I, because of its Germanic origin.

Yes!! The bolded is exactly the case for him.  Otherwise it's totally illogical in his head and he's an uber logical person. It's like he can tolerate the absurdity it all is to him, if at least there's some sort of why. 

I have both volumes of English from the Roots Up back from when my oldest used it.  I hadn't thought about it, as we didn't use it with her until later in jr high, but I wonder if I could pull that out for some of it. 

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5 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Rather than having a list of word origins in the spelling book, what about doing 2-3x/week for 10-15 min., a root-based Vocabulary program (aloud, rather than writing it out, to avoid busywork).

Or, perhaps "scratch that etymological itch" by taking 10 minutes on the first day of the new spelling list, DS picks 3 words, and together look them up in the dictionary (or online) for the word origin. That way he gets some of his questions answered, and it doesn't cost you more than an extra 10 minutes a week. It could also lead to some pretty fun and interesting conversations together... 😄 

As a side note, understanding the origin of a word often helps the spelling make since. For example, in English "when 2 vowels go walking, the first one does the talking" ... so for example, with the word meat, the long E sound is pronounced. In German, it's reversed, so the "second one does the talking" -- so a word like "thief" is pronounced with the long E, rather than a long I, because of its Germanic origin.

Meat is also Germanic in origin.

And fief is pronounced like thief but came to English from French.

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1 hour ago, maize said:

Meat is also Germanic in origin.

And fief is pronounced like thief but came to English from French.


Fun! 😄 

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1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

 

 

Probably NOT what you're looking for, but I find The ABCs and All Their Tricks to be an extremely helpful resource for understanding all of the different spellings for the different sounds -- a very brief (one sentence) explanation is given when the spelling is a pattern from a foreign language, and the word has been adopted into the English language, while retaining its original spelling....

This book is really very good.  It's a comprehensive list of spelling rules with examples, exceptions, and explanations. 

How old is the child in question?

I've been using the Words Their Way Word Sorts books.   They  work very well for my questioner.  Each level is a book of lists with detailed explanations of the rules.  It includes cut and paste sorting activities that worked well for my writing resistant kid.  I have personally learned a lot from the program (I now know what an absorbed prefix is, and also why  "vomited" has one "t" but "omitted" gets two, for example).   I supplement with The ABC's book Lori D mentioned above, an etymology dictionary, and lots of talk about word roots.  We do our spelling work almost entirely orally, spelling bee style, from WTW lists that I put into ANKI.

 

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Spelling Plus has words arranged by pattern and rule, but not language of origin, any he has questions about he could type in and look up; have him do Read, Write, Type if he needs to improve typing.

Marcia Henry's Words organizes words by rule and language of origin, usually cheaper at Pro-Ed than Amazon, worksheet based but you could use as word lists.

https://www.proedinc.com/Products/14834/words-integrated-decoding-and-spelling-instruction-based-on-word-origin-and-word-structure-second-edition.aspx

My Language of origin worksheet, mostly word lists and how to make your own words, not a mindless worksheet, covered in syllables lesson 7 - 9.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/LatinGreekOE_Worksheets.pdf

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

I use The ABCs and All Their Tricks frequently, it's a great language reference.  There is also Uncovering the Logic of English, a similar reference book.  I like The ABCs better, but I've had it for 20+ years and know where everything is in it, so that may be part of it, too, I know plenty of people that like the LOE book. Either book could be adapted as word lists for spelling with a bit of work.

https://www.amazon.com/ABCs-All-Their-Tricks-Reference/dp/0880621400/ref=pd_sbs_14_2/130-3004562-3302114?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0880621400&pd_rd_r=b2f00c97-ef1e-4078-bb5b-7def5e4f51be&pd_rd_w=aYUUA&pd_rd_wg=AaYUZ&pf_rd_p=52b7592c-2dc9-4ac6-84d4-4bda6360045e&pf_rd_r=3E5MKGX85PFWP4WGZBX1&psc=1&refRID=3E5MKGX85PFWP4WGZBX1

https://www.amazon.com/Uncovering-Logic-English-Common-Sense-Approach/dp/1936706210/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-4nuBRCnARIsAHwyuPp6rZ2InrQ7rs6bedzxCfKwkdd67lzwtGclG3KamKpia4G-db36_FUaAvMFEALw_wcB&hvadid=241629807960&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9029608&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1560780734055901367&hvtargid=kwd-32977180909&hydadcr=9392_10387794&keywords=uncovering+the+logic+of+english&qid=1573110908&sr=8-1

He could also watch my phonics lesson 27, very boring for a normal 8 year old boy but might be up his alley, explains this kind of thing, this is the document that goes along with it:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/OriginSlides.pdf

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics Lsns/phonicslsnslinks.html

Percentages based on most common 17,000 words in English based on sound, boys that are logical, analytical, or good at math but not as good at spelling like it. http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics Lsns/Resources/sound letter spell1.pdf (I have not yet had a female student use it!)

I have one for reading, too. http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics Lsns/Resources/letter sound read new 2011.pdf

Edited by ElizabethB
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Most of the words are probably too advanced for him now, but a spelling bee study site has words arranged by language of origin with hints on how to study some of the tougher words.  Several of the Old English and a few of the French words may be at current spelling level.

http://www.myspellit.com

 

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The Natural Speller has lists of words, but you'd have to come up with the exercises/activities yourself. He could alphabetize them, look them up in a dictionary and write the etymologies, write sentences with them, and so on.

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Well, I've loaded my Amazon cart with these suggestions and printed some of ElizabethB's stuff, and bought an Etymology dictionary. If he can't spell after this, it's all on him LOL. 

I'll let y'all know if he ends up on Scripp's one day. 😂

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On 11/6/2019 at 7:47 PM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

... I have both volumes of English from the Roots Up back from when my oldest used it...


We enjoyed that program a lot when DSs were grades 3-5 for volume 1, and grades 4-6 for volume 2. We did it like a game and made our own cards. For the game aspect: we'd look at the word in the book, and try to guess what the meaning was by coming up with words that had that root in it. Then we'd read in the book about it, I mad a card for it, and we added our own words that we thought of, in addition to the words listed in the program. We did 2 roots a day, 2x/week. We went through each volume 2 times (2 years in a row for each), with the second year obviously as review, but also as a chance to think of more words on our own. (We always looked up our ideas, as sometimes they were NOT from the root.)

That's probably more effort on your part than you want to go into, but my point is that EftRU vol. 1  is fine for a 3rd grader. I'd wait until grade 4 or maybe 5 for volume 2, as the words are harder.

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On 11/6/2019 at 7:55 PM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I have a ds who is a questioner, who essentially wants to know the etymology of every word on earth and likes to argue about the stupidity of some English spelling rules and how inefficient some spellings are. This is a first as my other kids don't really question why. It just is. He's a questioner of all things- I'm pretty sure he's leaning towards being an engineer. On the one hand, all of these rabbit trails of learning why a word is spelled a particular way and not another helps it stick in his head, but on the other hand it takes a lot of time I don't have right now. 

Is there a spelling program that groups words in a certain way, or even better has an etymology side box on specific words instead of just lists? All I really need are lists, not worksheets. He hates busy work and I have no desire for crossword puzzles, word finds, or word tiles--  and he's hated AAS so we dropped it. I simply want a list of words to go through- he does best memorizing them verbally, and only then at the end writing them down. Rainbow Resource has 59 pages of Spelling programs so I am in overwhelm and thought I'd ask here. 

Yes! That's a description of the venerable old Word Wealth, and Word Wealth Junior. The best vocabulary and spelling program ever. The only program I found that my girls looked forward to using, and retained everything.

Pros: Awesome. Interesting. Cheap. High quality.

Cons: Out of print so you have to poke around a bit. No answer key or teacher's guide, but you don't really need one. Really has to be done together with the instructor, so not a good choice if you want something self-teaching.

Word Wealth Junior seems to have been meant for middle school, and Word Wealth for high school. But a good reader can start in late elementary and progress at his own pace.

Less than $10 for a used copy. At that price, what is there to lose? (Not paid for this endorsement.)

ETA: Just got to your post mentioning that he's 8. Maybe too young for WW/WWJr right now.

ETA2: This is the 1962 edition of WWJr which we use. I see Amazon wants $20 for it.

https://www.amazon.com/Word-wealth-junior-vocabulary-speller/dp/B0007EC264

ETA3: Old thread: 

 

Edited by Violet Crown
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13 hours ago, Violet Crown said:

Yes! That's a description of the venerable old Word Wealth, and Word Wealth Junior. The best vocabulary and spelling program ever. The only program I found that my girls looked forward to using, and retained everything.

Pros: Awesome. Interesting. Cheap. High quality.

Cons: Out of print so you have to poke around a bit. No answer key or teacher's guide, but you don't really need one. Really has to be done together with the instructor, so not a good choice if you want something self-teaching.

Word Wealth Junior seems to have been meant for middle school, and Word Wealth for high school. But a good reader can start in late elementary and progress at his own pace.

Less than $10 for a used copy. At that price, what is there to lose? (Not paid for this endorsement.)

ETA: Just got to your post mentioning that he's 8. Maybe too young for WW/WWJr right now.

ETA2: This is the 1962 edition of WWJr which we use. I see Amazon wants $20 for it.

https://www.amazon.com/Word-wealth-junior-vocabulary-speller/dp/B0007EC264

ETA3: Old thread: 

 

This looks intriguing for later on. I'm going to check it out. I definitely am not one for youngers doing self teaching- we do everything together and I don't see that stopping any time soon. 

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14 hours ago, Violet Crown said:

Yes! That's a description of the venerable old Word Wealth, and Word Wealth Junior. The best vocabulary and spelling program ever. The only program I found that my girls looked forward to using, and retained everything.

Pros: Awesome. Interesting. Cheap. High quality.

Cons: Out of print so you have to poke around a bit. No answer key or teacher's guide, but you don't really need one. Really has to be done together with the instructor, so not a good choice if you want something self-teaching.

Word Wealth Junior seems to have been meant for middle school, and Word Wealth for high school. But a good reader can start in late elementary and progress at his own pace.

Less than $10 for a used copy. At that price, what is there to lose? (Not paid for this endorsement.)

 

That looks really interesting, thanks!

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On 11/7/2019 at 12:42 PM, Ellie said:

The Natural Speller has lists of words, but you'd have to come up with the exercises/activities yourself. He could alphabetize them, look them up in a dictionary and write the etymologies, write sentences with them, and so on.

This just arrived today and I really like the set up. It's very straightforward. 

 

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