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seemesew

Overwhelmed, tired and need...something, maybe to vent

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I feel like am failing high-school for m y son. He doesn't seem to enjoy any of it. its just another list of stuff to do for him. He really wants to do youtube videos and create a successful channel. I am okay with that but he also doesn't really work on it as much as watch it, ikwm. I want him to find something he likes and let him get ahead in that area or just learn from it and move on to something else he's interested in. Instead we are doing science, history, math, Spanish, English/composition, and that's it he's done, I'm done. What am I missing? Is it just his age (he's 14) that he doesn't want to really do anything? He is done with his work by 11:00-12:30 and then he wants to read fantasy or watch stupid YouTube shows (they really are dumb nothing educational about pranking people).

I feel like I can't teach him writing, or grammar! I feel so lost on if I'm doing it right, or if he's getting enough, or liking it. I worry that I can't pay for a class for him because there isn't enough money for $100's dollar classes, let alone $100 or even $50, when I have 4 other kids to worry about and buy for too. 

What advice can you give me? Tell me I'm doing my best because I am...It just feels so overwhelming.

What brought this all on is the fact that we are doing 3rd grade grammar and he still doesn't get it. He writes okay not bad, but his grammar skills in knowing what a verb, or preposition is isn't there. He loves writing and I feel like doing grammar is ruining that love for him. Do you think I should let it go and just keep him writing?

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Some of it is the age.  14 was the pits for my oldest ds.  It got better.  It's better with my present ds, but he doesn't love school.  He just is a better worker.  It did work out for my ds, but honestly I ended up putting him in a writing class and things went a lot better.  It was just 6 weeks, i think, but it made me realize that it helped to have him write for someone else.  So, the next year my friend and I traded writing from each other's teen aged sons.  Lantern English has $60 8 week writing classes.  Could you swing one session?  They can be intense, but my high schoolers rise to the challenge and produce good work.

If he is writing grammatically, he can drop the grammar.

His day seems awfully short.  I found teen boys do best with morning exercise and enough to keep them busy.  Could you add an elective of some kind (my kids do 6-7 credits and work at least 6 hours a day at that age)?  I know the ideal would be for him to immerse himself in a self-chosen task and run with it.  That totally works for my middle 2 (and seems to be happening with my youngest).  My oldest was not there at that age.  He needed a lot more structure and guidance.  It took a while for his passions to develop.  Now he is very self-motivated and an active learner.

We did put him in 4 online classes his tenth grade year.  He really learned to work that year.  Part time jobs are another place that kids can learn to work hard and be proud of what they do.

Chin-up.  The teenaged things is hard and there is a learning curve.

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Does he have any diagnosed learning differences? Has he always homeschooled? What are you doing for Science, History, Math, Spanish, and English?

I am sensing that he is not pursuing the typical 9th grade studies, exactly, but it also seems that there might be reasons for that. Also, I wonder if he has any sports or extracurricular activities - he's kind of got too much of the day left, at the end of school time. 

If you feel like talking it all out, we are here. I can tell you that this board is very understanding about 14yo boys. Any of us who have hs'ed them, are un-shockable and able to discuss it.

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20 minutes ago, seemesew said:

 Instead we are doing science, history, math, Spanish, English/composition, and that's it he's done, I'm done. What am I missing? Is it just his age (he's 14) that he doesn't want to really do anything? He is done with his work by 11:00-12:30 ...

What brought this all on is the fact that we are doing 3rd grade grammar and he still doesn't get it. He writes okay not bad, but his grammar skills in knowing what a verb, or preposition is isn't there. He loves writing and I feel like doing grammar is ruining that love for him. 

 

Did he pick what he wants to do for the subjects you listed? I know sometimes it’s hard financially to let kids pick whatever they like but if you pick all the curriculum, you might not have his buy in. 

What time does he start with his work? My DS13 (turns 14 next month) starts at 8am and takes a short break at around 9:30am for morning snack, 11:30am for lunch break. My DS14 however usually wakes up closer to noon.

If his writing is grammatically sound, I won’t do a separate grammar. SAT and ACT’s grammar questions are more on recognizing which sentences are written correctly, and does not test grammar diagramming skills. 

My DS13 watches King of Random, Alex the French Guy Cooking, What’s Inside Family, Buzzfeed, Epicurous  on YouTube and that’s the way he relax after his work is done. It might not be educational but that doesn’t bother me.

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1 hour ago, freesia said:

Some of it is the age.  14 was the pits for my oldest ds.  It got better.  It's better with my present ds, but he doesn't love school.  He just is a better worker.  It did work out for my ds, but honestly I ended up putting him in a writing class and things went a lot better.  It was just 6 weeks, i think, but it made me realize that it helped to have him write for someone else.  So, the next year my friend and I traded writing from each other's teen aged sons.  Lantern English has $60 8 week writing classes.  Could you swing one session?  They can be intense, but my high schoolers rise to the challenge and produce good work.

If he is writing grammatically, he can drop the grammar.

His day seems awfully short.  I found teen boys do best with morning exercise and enough to keep them busy.  Could you add an elective of some kind (my kids do 6-7 credits and work at least 6 hours a day at that age)?  I know the ideal would be for him to immerse himself in a self-chosen task and run with it.  That totally works for my middle 2 (and seems to be happening with my youngest).  My oldest was not there at that age.  He needed a lot more structure and guidance.  It took a while for his passions to develop.  Now he is very self-motivated and an active learner.

We did put him in 4 online classes his tenth grade year.  He really learned to work that year.  Part time jobs are another place that kids can learn to work hard and be proud of what they do.

Chin-up.  The teenaged things is hard and there is a learning curve.

I agree his day seems short to me as well. But I'm DONE by then and he doesn't really go past that most days if I'm not keeping close track (which l forget). I guess I need something he can do that isn't as much on me.

I've not heard of those classes I'll check them out!

1 hour ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Does he have any diagnosed learning differences? Has he always homeschooled? What are you doing for Science, History, Math, Spanish, and English?

I am sensing that he is not pursuing the typical 9th grade studies, exactly, but it also seems that there might be reasons for that. Also, I wonder if he has any sports or extracurricular activities - he's kind of got too much of the day left, at the end of school time. 

If you feel like talking it all out, we are here. I can tell you that this board is very understanding about 14yo boys. Any of us who have hs'ed them, are un-shockable and able to discuss it.

He has no disabilities, if anything he's very bright and more than capable of work past his age. Any lack in his schedule is 2 things, me not knowing what's expected for his age, and him thinking he should be done by noon. 

He is doing saxon Algebra 1 for math, biology from easy peasy online with additional assignments from my biology teacher husband (I put him in charge of this class). history is family style (the good and beautiful) with added reading, writing and projects. Spanish is also easy peasy and seems pretty good and he actually enjoys it. English is still a work in progress...I haven't honed into that completely yet. He does piano for at least 30 minutes a day and was in soccer but the season just ended.

He helped pick his courses and is self driven enough to get it all done, though its not always quality. He just wants to get it done. I would like to see him get into writing or a computer class as he really likes both those subjects but I'm lost where to begin with those in my limited price range, and needing it to be something I'm not as involved in.

Most of my limited time and tolerance is from  a 2 year-old who is being especially hard right now, and a 10 year-old who is HARD, he's on the autism spectrum and some days are just Hell with him screaming.

 

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1 hour ago, seemesew said:

What brought this all on is the fact that we are doing 3rd grade grammar and he still doesn't get it. He writes okay not bad, but his grammar skills in knowing what a verb, or preposition is isn't there. He loves writing and I feel like doing grammar is ruining that love for him. Do you think I should let it go and just keep him writing?

I think it's a little worrisome that he's having that much trouble with grammar that is that basic.  At the very least, it suggests that the approach you are using really doesn't mesh well with how he thinks.  What program are you using?

If he writes adequately, that implies that his grammar intuition is decent enough.  Certainly decent enough that he at least understands how to *use* verbs, even if he can't identify one.  And probably decent enough that he can *use* prepositional phrases, even if he can't identify them.  (TBH, I personally have found identifying prepositional phrases, in the manner usually taught, to be rather difficult - it never connected with my grammar intuition.)  In what context does he fail to identify verbs?  Can he come up with a short list of verbs from the definition of a verb?  Can he identify a verb in a very basic, subject/verb only sentence, like "Rex barks"? 

(For me, it was that sort of sentence-level grammar analysis, starting from the most basic S-V sentence and building up from there, that helped me connect my mostly-unconscious grammar intuition to formal grammar analysis.)

I have two thoughts.  One thought is that it might help to separate "working on grammar" from "working on writing", so that the thing he has trouble with (grammar) doesn't drag down the thing he enjoys (writing).  The other thought is that he might do better if you approached grammar from a writing perspective - using grammar to help you better say what you want to say - instead of from a more analytical, breaking-down-other-people's-writing-into-(kind-of-meaningless-seeming)-parts.  Or, highly related, approached grammar in a meaning-centric way.  Here's a sentence, you *know* what it means - and the point of grammar is to learn how to describe how language conveys that meaning.  A verb is a word that describes an action or state of being - so in "Rex barks," what's the action?  Writing-centric grammar programs work very similarly, in that you *know* what you are trying to convey - *this* action or *that* description - and now you are learning how to describe how language conveys those existing-in-the-real-world actions and relationships in words.  And how the wrong choice of language can convey the wrong action, the wrong description, the wrong image, the wrong relationship.

In any case, the goal is to connect his innate understanding of what the sentence is doing - if he understands what the sentence means, then at some level he *does* understand what the sentence is doing, at least intuitively - with the formal grammar terms and definitions.  If he can't identify parts of speech - but his reading comprehension and writing skills are fine - then for whatever reason he's unable to connect his intuitive understanding of how English works with formal grammar definitions.  Honestly, that was a huge bugaboo for me, too - and it really helped me to kind of work backwards, building sentences from the ground up, from the most basic S-V.  I had to start somewhere where the definitions *made sense* - where I could *see* and *feel* that, yes, "Rex" is indeed a person, place or thing; that "barks" is indeed an action.  (I think Treasured Conversations does this.)

 

(It's a bit out of your price range, and probably requires a bit better grammar grounding than what your ds currently has, but I'm doing "Grammar for Writers" with my oldest, and it has provided light bulb moment after light bulb moment.  I now really get the formal difference between a direct object and a predicate nominative (which is where dd and I fell off the train in "Diagramming Sentences").  It's been really helpful with connecting one's sense of what a sentence is describing with the formal grammar of the sentence.  We started it with FLL3-level grammar: nouns (person, place, or thing), verbs (describes an action or state or being), adjectives (describes nouns), adverbs (describes verbs, adjectives, and other adverbs), and the ability to identify direct and indirect objects in extremely simple sentences.  I had the feeling that the program maybe wanted a bit more grammar experience (it's aimed at high schoolers), but I decided to go for it anyway, and so far it's been fine.  That was a good enough grounding to get on with things.  The author is really, really awesome at giving meaning-based "tests" for identifying everything beyond verbs (you do need to be able to intuitively find the main verb), and it's making the definitions come alive for me.  One potential downside for grammar strugglers is that there's not a huge amount of exercises per lesson, and the sentences tend to be moderately complex.  Dd had trouble with direct objects and complements in the more complex sentences, and so I took a side trip into applying the DO-v-PN/PA test to easier sentences until she started feeling it.  And then she went through the challenge section with flying colors.  But the answer key is *utterly awesome* - it explains every bit of the sentence, and points out common errors and why they might have tricked you.)

Edited by forty-two
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45 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Did he pick what he wants to do for the subjects you listed? I know sometimes it’s hard financially to let kids pick whatever they like but if you pick all the curriculum, you might not have his buy in. 

What time does he start with his work? My DS13 (turns 14 next month) starts at 8am and takes a short break at around 9:30am for morning snack, 11:30am for lunch break. My DS14 however usually wakes up closer to noon.

If his writing is grammatically sound, I won’t do a separate grammar. SAT and ACT’s grammar questions are more on recognizing which sentences are written correctly, and does not test grammar diagramming skills. 

My DS13 watches King of Random, Alex the French Guy Cooking, What’s Inside Family, Buzzfeed, Epicurous  on YouTube and that’s the way he relax after his work is done. It might not be educational but that doesn’t bother me.

He starts at 8 or 9 and has picked his subjects. 

I don't care that hec watches the dumb shows but he wants to watch them from noon till bedtime! An hour is more than enough in my opinion.

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5 minutes ago, forty-two said:

I think it's a little worrisome that he's having that much trouble with grammar that is that basic.  At the very least, it suggests that the approach you are using really doesn't mesh well with how he thinks.  What program are you using?

If he writes adequately, that implies that his grammar intuition is decent enough.  Certainly decent enough that he at least understands how to *use* verbs, even if he can't identify one.  And probably decent enough that he can *use* prepositional phrases, even if he can't identify them.  (TBH, I personally have found identifying prepositional phrases, in the manner usually taught, to be rather difficult - it never connected with my grammar intuition.)  In what context does he fail to identify verbs?  Can he come up with a short list of verbs from the definition of a verb?  Can he identify a verb in a very basic, subject/verb only sentence, like "Rex barks"? 

(For me, it was that sort of sentence-level grammar analysis, starting from the most basic S-V sentence and building up from there, that helped me connect my mostly-unconscious grammar intuition to formal grammar analysis.)

I have two thoughts.  One thought is that it might help to separate "working on grammar" from "working on writing", so that the thing he has trouble with (grammar) doesn't drag down the thing he enjoys (writing).  The other thought is that he might do better if you approached grammar from a writing perspective - using grammar to help you better say what you want to say - instead of from a more analytical, breaking-down-other-people's-writing-into-(kind-of-meaningless-seeming)-parts.  Or, highly related, approached grammar in a meaning-centric way.  Here's a sentence, you *know* what it means - and the point of grammar is to learn how to describe how language conveys that meaning.  A verb is a word that describes an action or state of being - so in "Rex barks," what's the action?  Writing-centric grammar programs work very similarly, in that you *know* what you are trying to convey - *this* action or *that* description - and now you are learning how to describe how language conveys those existing-in-the-real-world actions and relationships in words.  And how the wrong choice of language can convey the wrong action, the wrong description, the wrong image, the wrong relationship.

In any case, the goal is to connect his innate understanding of what the sentence is doing - if he understands what the sentence means, then at some level he *does* understand what the sentence is doing, at least intuitively - with the formal grammar terms and definitions.  If he can't identify parts of speech - but his reading comprehension and writing skills are fine - then for whatever reason he's unable to connect his intuitive understanding of how English works with formal grammar definitions.  Honestly, that was a huge bugaboo for me, too - and it really helped me to kind of work backwards, building sentences from the ground up, from the most basic S-V.  I had to start somewhere where the definitions *made sense* - where I could *see* and *feel* that, yes, "Rex" is indeed a person, place or thing; that "barks" is indeed an action.  (I think Treasured Conversations does this.)

 

(It's out of your price range, and probably requires a bit better grammar grounding than what your ds currently has, but I'm doing "Grammar for Writers" with my oldest, and it has provided light bulb moment after light bulb moment.  I now really get the formal difference between a direct object and a predicate nominative (which is where dd and I fell off the train in "Diagramming Sentences").  It's been really helpful with connecting one's sense of what a sentence is describing with the formal grammar of the sentence.  We started it with FLL3-level grammar: nouns (person, place, or thing), verbs (describes an action or state or being), adjectives (describes nouns), adverbs (describes verbs, adjectives, and other adverbs), and the ability to identity direct and indirect objects in extremely simple sentences.  I had the feeling that the program maybe wanted a bit more grammar experience (it's aimed at high schoolers), but I decided to go for it anyway, and so far it's been fine.  That was a good enough grounding to get on with things.  The author is really, really awesome at giving meaning-based "tests" for identifying everything beyond verbs (you do need to be able to intuitively find the main verb), and it's making the definitions come alive for me.  One potential downside for grammar strugglers is that there's not a huge amount of exercises per lesson, and the sentences tend to be moderately complex.  Dd had trouble with direct objects and complements in the more complex sentences, and so I took a side trip into applying the DO-v-PN/PA test to easier sentences until she started feeling it.  And then she went through the challenge section with flying colors.  But the answer key is *utterly awesome* - it explains every bit of the sentence, and points out common errors and why they might have tricked you.)

This is very thoughtful reply! The grammar or parts of speech struggle is due to a public school that didn't teach them and the last 2 years of being in a common wealth group (that gave 90% of his work) that didn't focus on it all. so essentially he's just never been taught it. His writing really isn't bad he just can't name the parts of speech very well in a sentence, but given word choices he does well, or even can generally point out what doesn't belong and could replace with something better.

The 3rd grade thing is me trying to fill the gaps and getting frustrated 

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I've been looking at The Good and the Beautiful's history program. I see that the idea is to extend the pre-K to 8th curriculum to high school, by adding some extra reading and projects. But going by the samples, I do not see The Big Book of History Stories and the small passages in the curriculum as sufficient for high school. The spine for the family, The Big Book of History Stories, is meant for ages 7 to 12. The 10th to 12th grade supplement includes some short primary source documents, but most of the extra reading is below high school level, and most of the writing is summarizing an excerpt. High school requires a bit more.

Easy Peasy is also very, very lightweight...it seems that he is doing much lower level work than he is capable of, and he does not grasp third grade grammar. You might need to totally overhaul curriculum. If he were somehow flying through an entire *high school level* program in three hours, we would look at enrichment with electives, or outsourcing, or finding new sports and community options. But first, it sounds like he needs to get up to grade level. If he had more typical courses, he would not get done in 2.5 to 3 hours. And then if he had a sport, a choir, or whatever, he'd be down to a more reasonable amount of free time for dumb YouTube videos!

As the mother of four kids, some with ADHD, I am hearing you about the other children being a hindrance to your being able to concentrate on ninth grade. That's not something that can just be ignored, as you are developing strategies for getting your ds14 caught up. Do you have a school option, other than the co-op? 

For homeschool curriculum, I also hear you about the financial costs. The most frugal plan that is still rigorous, that I know of, would involve The Well-Trained Mind and some free, vintage English/LA texts. Would you have any interest in learning about those options?

Edited by Lang Syne Boardie
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Many times kids don't have direction or know what to do. With my daughter I brainstormed some ideas for her to pursue: a technical class at the nearby tech high school, college class in music, part time job, volunteer work. I made a list of available ideas and told her the only choice she didn't have was nothing. She had to choose something. She was not required to stick with it for life, just to try it. I would probably pursue something similar with your son. They don't have to cost a lot. Learning through volunteer work or a paid job, free online courses or MOOCS, or community events are options.

 

Sometimes other adults are willing to teach skills they know or maybe your husband or another family member would be willing to show him different things. I think it is important for teens to stretch their wings and do things without mom sometimes. This is especially important considering you have your hands full.

Edited by frogger
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51 minutes ago, seemesew said:

I would like to see him get into writing or a computer class as he really likes both those subjects but I'm lost where to begin with those in my limited price range, and needing it to be something I'm not as involved in.

 

Is dual enrollment a possibility? My DS14 (turning 15 next month) started programming class at community college this fall and it’s free for him. The community college sponsor his transit card so he can take public transport for free to and from community college.

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43 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

I've been looking at The Good and the Beautiful's history program. I see that the idea is to extend the pre-K to 8th curriculum to high school, by adding some extra reading and projects. But going by the samples, I do not see The Big Book of History Stories and the small passages in the curriculum as sufficient for high school. The spine for the family, The Big Book of History Stories, is meant for ages 7 to 12. The 10th to 12th grade supplement includes some short primary source documents, but most of the extra reading is below high school level, and most of the writing is summarizing an excerpt. High school requires a bit more.

Easy Peasy is also very, very lightweight...it seems that he is doing much lower level work than he is capable of, and he does not grasp third grade grammar. You might need to totally overhaul curriculum. If he were somehow flying through an entire *high school level* program in three hours, we would look at enrichment with electives, or outsourcing, or finding new sports and community options. But first, it sounds like he needs to get up to grade level. If he had more typical courses, he would not get done in 2.5 to 3 hours. And then if he had a sport, a choir, or whatever, he'd be down to a more reasonable amount of free time for dumb YouTube videos!

As the mother of four kids, some with ADHD, I am hearing you about the other children being a hindrance to your being able to concentrate on ninth grade. That's not something that can just be ignored, as you are developing strategies for getting your ds14 caught up. Do you have a school option, other than the co-op? 

For homeschool curriculum, I also hear you about the financial costs. The most frugal plan that is still rigorous, that I know of, would involve The Well-Trained Mind and some free, vintage English/LA texts. Would you have any interest in learning about those options?

I appreciate your honesty. I would be interested in the resources you have that you mentioned.

As for the science my husband has him doing extra besides the easy peasy (its what his ap classes are doing) so I'm leaving that class to him.

The history needs a bit more perhaps (though truthfully I'm doing what I can and more than he's had in the past) but I do feel its been good thus far. I do add extra reading 1-2 books a week and a written narration of them. I would like to keep the family style on the same subjects. Any suggestions to make it more grade level would be appreciated!

I am open to overhauling his stuff but like I mentioned money is tight. In love vintage programs but need answer keys, or a guide to help me. I don't know much grammar myself but I am learning it now 😉. Yes give me a better idea what his day should look like with new curriculum if needed and I'll do what I can with changing it.

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22 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Is dual enrollment a possibility? My DS14 (turning 15 next month) started programming class at community college this fall and it’s free for him. The community college sponsor his transit card so he can take public transport for free to and from community college.

It is and that is our goal next year. I am trying to prepare him a bit more this year, and get him closer to driving himself as its 30 minutes away.

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48 minutes ago, frogger said:

Many times kids don't have direction or know what to do. With my daughter I brainstormed some ideas for her to pursue: a technical class at the nearby tech high school, college class in music, part time job, volunteer work. I made a list of available ideas and told her the only choice she didn't have was nothing. She had to choose something. She was not required to stick with it for life, just to try it. I would probably pursue something similar with your son. They don't have to cost a lot. Learning through volunteer work or a paid job, free online courses or MOOCS, or community events are options.

 

Sometimes other adults are willing to teach skills they know or maybe your husband or another family member would be willing to show him different things. I think it is important for teens to stretch their wings and do things without mom sometimes. This is especially important considering you have your hands full.

Great points! I think I'll make a similar list of options for him.

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24 minutes ago, seemesew said:

I appreciate your honesty. I would be interested in the resources you have that you mentioned.

As for the science my husband has him doing extra besides the easy peasy (its what his ap classes are doing) so I'm leaving that class to him.

The history needs a bit more perhaps (though truthfully I'm doing what I can and more than he's had in the past) but I do feel its been good thus far. I do add extra reading 1-2 books a week and a written narration of them. I would like to keep the family style on the same subjects. Any suggestions to make it more grade level would be appreciated!

I am open to overhauling his stuff but like I mentioned money is tight. In love vintage programs but need answer keys, or a guide to help me. I don't know much grammar myself but I am learning it now 😉. Yes give me a better idea what his day should look like with new curriculum if needed and I'll do what I can with changing it.

 

 

Honestly, just adding Great Course lectures or just good books will beef things up. You don't have to read all of them nor do you have to always read a narration from him on the book.  I've found the cheapest way to get Great Courses is through audible, where I use my audible credit (that I get for paying 14.95 a month) to purchase them. I have also found some at my library.

 

If he has no learning disabilities and seems to do well with academics but you want to get him that Grammar component you can try Analytical Grammar. It starts with naming nouns and articles and moves from there. It was developed by a teacher who taught when schools didn't have grammar as part of their curriculum. The teacher realized she had to teach it all in one year because no one else would. It is written for a high school audience so might be a better match than the 3rd grade curriculum. Some might say it was overkill though but I actually learned a lot from doing it. I went to school in the same state and time period that the teacher devolped the program in.  He might be able to do it on his own although cost may be an issue. I haven't looked at it in awhile.

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27 minutes ago, seemesew said:

This is very thoughtful reply! The grammar or parts of speech struggle is due to a public school that didn't teach them and the last 2 years of being in a common wealth group (that gave 90% of his work) that didn't focus on it all. so essentially he's just never been taught it. His writing really isn't bad he just can't name the parts of speech very well in a sentence, but given word choices he does well, or even can generally point out what doesn't belong and could replace with something better.

From what you said, he can identify the parts of speech of individual words, but he's hit-or-miss with identifying parts of speech in sentences.  That's not a bad beginning for two months worth of beginning grammar, all things considered.  It is harder to apply the definitions to sentences than to individual words.  How concerned I'd be would really depend on how complex the sentences were, and whether he's missing basic things like ID'ing the subject and main verb, or if he's missing words in more complex bits of the sentence.

Also, wrt "he doesn't get <3rd grade grammar>":  Does that mean that he is getting the 3rd grade grammar book exercises wrong?  Or is it that he can do the 3rd grade grammar book exercises all right, but he can't apply it to his own writing? 

Him not being able to apply it outside the grammar book wouldn't surprise me or worry me at all.  (Both because his writing is probably more advanced than the 3rd grade exercises and also because he's only a grammar beginner.  Grammar's frustrating that way, that you can't really analyze sentences "in the wild" until you have quite a lot of grammar under your belt.)  But him being unable to do the 3rd grade grammar book exercises would concern me some.

Although, it occurs to me, if he's doing it independently, he might be rushing through and not taking time to think on the harder ones.  Or the program might expect you to have memorized the definitions, and he might not have done so, and that could be causing him trouble.  Or that the program teaches an explicit, step-by-step approach, and he's cutting corners on it.  (My oldest would do all these things if left to her own devices.)  On the ones he misses, if you walk him through the sentence, step-by-step, can he do it then?  IOW, how much of his trouble is genuinely not understanding despite full effort, and how much is just not applying full effort.

 

27 minutes ago, seemesew said:

The 3rd grade thing is me trying to fill the gaps and getting frustrated 

ITU not wanting gaps.  Fortunately, grammar, like Latin, has beginner programs for all levels.  Since you said he's generally above level, and doesn't have any apparent language issues, he might well do better with a beginner program meant for older learners.  There might be a lot more repetition in the 3rd grade book than he needs; fiddly detail work that is conceptually easy can be painfully mind-numbing for lots of kids.  Also, programs for older learners often get to the big picture faster than programs for younger kids, which can be very helpful for many people.

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I'm wondering the same thing as Arcadia. Just a thought, but can he take community college classes in September?

My two are 16 and really came into their own when they started doing junior college last Sept.

Alley

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30 minutes ago, forty-two said:

From what you said, he can identify the parts of speech of individual words, but he's hit-or-miss with identifying parts of speech in sentences.  That's not a bad beginning for two months worth of beginning grammar, all things considered.  It is harder to apply the definitions to sentences than to individual words.  How concerned I'd be would really depend on how complex the sentences were, and whether he's missing basic things like ID'ing the subject and main verb, or if he's missing words in more complex bits of the sentence.

Also, wrt "he doesn't get <3rd grade grammar>":  Does that mean that he is getting the 3rd grade grammar book exercises wrong?  Or is it that he can do the 3rd grade grammar book exercises all right, but he can't apply it to his own writing? 

Him not being able to apply it outside the grammar book wouldn't surprise me or worry me at all.  (Both because his writing is probably more advanced than the 3rd grade exercises and also because he's only a grammar beginner.  Grammar's frustrating that way, that you can't really analyze sentences "in the wild" until you have quite a lot of grammar under your belt.)  But him being unable to do the 3rd grade grammar book exercises would concern me some.

Although, it occurs to me, if he's doing it independently, he might be rushing through and not taking time to think on the harder ones.  Or the program might expect you to have memorized the definitions, and he might not have done so, and that could be causing him trouble.  Or that the program teaches an explicit, step-by-step approach, and he's cutting corners on it.  (My oldest would do all these things if left to her own devices.)  On the ones he misses, if you walk him through the sentence, step-by-step, can he do it then?  IOW, how much of his trouble is genuinely not understanding despite full effort, and how much is just not applying full effort.

 

ITU not wanting gaps.  Fortunately, grammar, like Latin, has beginner programs for all levels.  Since you said he's generally above level, and doesn't have any apparent language issues, he might well do better with a beginner program meant for older learners.  There might be a lot more repetition in the 3rd grade book than he needs; fiddly detail work that is conceptually easy can be painfully mind-numbing for lots of kids.  Also, programs for older learners often get to the big picture faster than programs for younger kids, which can be very helpful for many people.

I should have clarified a bit more. He is doing a 3rd grade grammar book but is not getting them all wrong. The first lesson he got maybe half but we did another page (same concept different exercises) and he got them all except 1. He can apply it to his own writing in some instances, just depending on the concept. We are going through it faster than normal we've just started this week and he's on page 75. We are skipping what he doesn't need. The 3rd grade comment was meant to state that is where we are not necessarily that he can't do it.

I made the mistake of letting him do it on his own for the first 2 months and just did a reassessment last Friday that is when I realized he wasn't grasping it on his own. With me helping him for 20 minutes he seems to be getting it. I'm just frustrated that we are where we are and I didn't do that sooner.

I am considering using this book from the well trained mind when we've finished this current book. they have 6 weeks free so I think I could get a good feel for it while looking for a used copy cheaper? https://welltrainedmind.com/c/language-arts/grammar/intermediate-grammar/ 

 

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14 minutes ago, seemesew said:

I should have clarified a bit more. He is doing a 3rd grade grammar book but is not getting them all wrong. The first lesson he got maybe half but we did another page (same concept different exercises) and he got them all except 1. He can apply it to his own writing in some instances, just depending on the concept. We are going through it faster than normal we've just started this week and he's on page 75. We are skipping what he doesn't need. The 3rd grade comment was meant to state that is where we are not necessarily that he can't do it.

Ah, that makes sense.

15 minutes ago, seemesew said:

I made the mistake of letting him do it on his own for the first 2 months and just did a reassessment last Friday that is when I realized he wasn't grasping it on his own. With me helping him for 20 minutes he seems to be getting it. I'm just frustrated that we are where we are and I didn't do that sooner.

Yeah, I agree that grammar instruction is so much more effective with parental help.  And at least you started now, with all of high school to work on it.  (And you aren't alone - I didn't exactly cover myself in glory wrt grammar with my oldest.  I curriculum hopped too much - she did the beginning of three different programs and thoroughly hated grammar after the third time through nouns.  I was sad at the thought I'd ruined grammar for her.  But I took some time off, and started Latin, and later tried sentence diagramming (we didn't get too far but it did revive grammar for her), and now, in 8th grade, it's fifth time's the charm <shifty>.  The point is, it's never too late :).)

17 minutes ago, seemesew said:

I am considering using this book from the well trained mind when we've finished this current book. they have 6 weeks free so I think I could get a good feel for it while looking for a used copy cheaper?

I haven't used it, but it's considered a very thorough program.  And the six week sample would definitely give you a good feel for how it works for your family.

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We do 6 hrs productive work. Which can be almost anything. It's broken up into 3 hrs school/ 3 hrs internship. After that he has 3 hrs screen / computer time. He's in dual enrollment. My son picked up enough grammar to get an A in college English. We did daily grams when he was younger. 

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---------------------------------------- 

I would like to see him get into writing or a computer class as he really likes both those subjects but I'm lost where to begin with those in my limited price range, and needing it to be something I'm not as involved in.

-------------------------------------------

Hi, 

If your son likes computers, get him started learning to program. This book https://www.manning.com/books/hello-world is for 12 year olds however, that mean, he'll go through it quickly. It teaches how to install the compiler and start programming. There are many free resources for learning Python and many other programming languages; futher more, there's a lot of support when troubleshooting. I have taught this book and help out kids and adults with programming questions. Feel free to contact.

 

Shamima

PS: The pdf of book is here

http://home.ustc.edu.cn/~ustcsh/py2016/data/Warren%20Sande,%20Carter%20Sande-Hello%20World!_%20Computer%20Programming%20for%20Kids%20and%20Other%20Beginners-Manning%20Publications.pdf

Edited by shamima
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This is a good book for combining grammar with work on writing better sentences, you can work on both skills at once.

https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Middle-School-Sentence-Composing-Approach/dp/0325009562/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1KGHU26YNFEC1&keywords=grammar+for+middle+school+a+sentence+composing+approach&qid=1573111732&sprefix=composing+grammar%2Caps%2C213&sr=8-3

Did he learn to read in school? If so, I would check his reading with my Quick Screen Reading grade level test, the MWIA, and the nonsense word test and work through my free syllables program if there are any problems, tests linked at end of page. There is also a brief writing exercise in lesson 9, you need to watch lessons 7 - 9 first.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

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14 hours ago, shamima said:

---------------------------------------- 

I would like to see him get into writing or a computer class as he really likes both those subjects but I'm lost where to begin with those in my limited price range, and needing it to be something I'm not as involved in.

-------------------------------------------

Hi, 

If your son likes computers, get him started learning to program. This book https://www.manning.com/books/hello-world is for 12 year olds however, that mean, he'll go through it quickly. It teaches how to install the compiler and start programming. There are many free resources for learning Python and many other programming languages; futher more, there's a lot of support when troubleshooting. I have taught this book and help out kids and adults with programming questions. Feel free to contact.

 

Shamima

PS: The pdf of book is here

http://home.ustc.edu.cn/~ustcsh/py2016/data/Warren%20Sande,%20Carter%20Sande-Hello%20World!_%20Computer%20Programming%20for%20Kids%20and%20Other%20Beginners-Manning%20Publications.pdf

Awesome thank you! We  check this out for sure!

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6 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

This is a good book for combining grammar with work on writing better sentences, you can work on both skills at once.

https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Middle-School-Sentence-Composing-Approach/dp/0325009562/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1KGHU26YNFEC1&keywords=grammar+for+middle+school+a+sentence+composing+approach&qid=1573111732&sprefix=composing+grammar%2Caps%2C213&sr=8-3

Did he learn to read in school? If so, I would check his reading with my Quick Screen Reading grade level test, the MWIA, and the nonsense word test and work through my free syllables program if there are any problems, tests linked at end of page. There is also a brief writing exercise in lesson 9, you need to watch lessons 7 - 9 first.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

Yes he mostly did though I worked on things at home too. I'll look into these resources for sure thank you!

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2 hours ago, seemesew said:

Yes he mostly did though I worked on things at home too. I'll look into these resources for sure thank you!

He should be reading all words correctly at equal speed on the MWIA, if there is a slowdown or any missed you should do nonsense words.  If the slowdown is more than 30%, I would stop all outside reading for a few weeks and use extra nonsense words with my syllables program, use all video/audio resources during those two weeks and have him read no sentences or stories or books. You fix the reading habit much quicker with no reading of sentences.

If he has no slowdown and is reading at grade level, I would still have him watch my syllables overview (super speed syllables, 1 video compressed lesson) and then lessons 7 - 10, there is a lot of good spelling and overview of the language info in there that is not generally covered in schools.

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22 hours ago, shamima said:

---------------------------------------- 

I would like to see him get into writing or a computer class as he really likes both those subjects but I'm lost where to begin with those in my limited price range, and needing it to be something I'm not as involved in.

-------------------------------------------

Hi, 

If your son likes computers, get him started learning to program. This book https://www.manning.com/books/hello-world is for 12 year olds however, that mean, he'll go through it quickly. It teaches how to install the compiler and start programming. There are many free resources for learning Python and many other programming languages; futher more, there's a lot of support when troubleshooting. I have taught this book and help out kids and adults with programming questions. Feel free to contact.

 

Shamima

PS: The pdf of book is here

http://home.ustc.edu.cn/~ustcsh/py2016/data/Warren%20Sande,%20Carter%20Sande-Hello%20World!_%20Computer%20Programming%20for%20Kids%20and%20Other%20Beginners-Manning%20Publications.pdf

THANK YOU! We downloaded the program and he has been doing it for the last hour :0) I'll be sure to message you if we have any questions!

 

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5 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

He should be reading all words correctly at equal speed on the MWIA, if there is a slowdown or any missed you should do nonsense words.  If the slowdown is more than 30%, I would stop all outside reading for a few weeks and use extra nonsense words with my syllables program, use all video/audio resources during those two weeks and have him read no sentences or stories or books. You fix the reading habit much quicker with no reading of sentences.

If he has no slowdown and is reading at grade level, I would still have him watch my syllables overview (super speed syllables, 1 video compressed lesson) and then lessons 7 - 10, there is a lot of good spelling and overview of the language info in there that is not generally covered in schools.

Thanks! I will be sure to check these out! He reads pretty well but I've never tested OTr checked him saying the words so I'll look into it.

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