Horrible, heartbreaking news. At least one was a homeschool mom.

[Reflections]

One was a homeschool mom. They were all Mormons as far as I know.  Most if not all of the children in the group received some kind of bullet wound. 

My heart is just breaking for them , their families, their friends, their communities.

From the article linked below:

At least nine U.S. citizens, including six children, who live in the Mexican border state of Sonora were killed in a shooting attack Monday 

Rhonita Maria LeBaron, reportedly died along with her twin 6-month-old babies and her two other children aged 10 and 12  

Also killed were Christina Langford Johnson, Dawna Langford and two of Dawna's children

Seventeen family members from the LeBarons and Langford families - who are related - were traveling in a caravan of three cars to a wedding 

According to relatives, Mexican drug cartel gunman opened fire 

One relative said as many as 13 others were missing after the attack

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7650129/Relatives-say-5-US-citizens-killed-northern-Mexico.html?fbclid=IwAR1TctWmQf2yd1sSi83AvwWBQ2jmYctJhk6ExJXtO3l7IievpHOS8wUmrfI

[PrincessMommy]

I saw it this morning when I woke up .  So heartbreaking.  May they rest with the righteous. 

[gardenmom5]

one mom was shot point blank in the chest - they weren't shot from a distance.  they knew they were targeting women and children.  they think the missing were kidnapped.

the fact their relative was in law enforcement and had targeted the cartels (and was murdered by them) ten years ago  - they may very well have been targeted as an "example".  the cartels are known for doing such things.

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Lanny]

Sex cult involved?  https://nypost.com/2019/11/05/women-killed-in-mexican-cartel-murders-had-alleged-ties-to-sex-cult-nxivm/

Near the international frontier, Mexican police captured a bullet proof SUV and the driver had 2 hostages tied up, so possibly he will provide information about whether those vehicles were attacked by mistake, or if they were in fact the intended victims of a "Hit". 

[Lanny]

I read another article which indicated this attack was intentional and was not a case of mistaken identity. (Not sure where the link is now, but possibly it was on the web site of the New York Post? I think their information came from CBS News?)

After my wife and I read about this, 1 or 2 days ago, both of us thought "Venganza".  Venganza is a Spanish word that translated into English means Retribution or Retaliation.  

So sad for the babies and young children and others who were killed or wounded.

[Carol in Cal.]

FWIW I have read elsewhere that this family was not Mormon but was from an offshoot that still espouses polygamy and settled in or near the border areas decades ago.  Horrendous either way, just mentioning this for accuracy.

[Scarlett]

I am curious why they left some of the children alive?  I read that a young boy hid his siblings and walked 6 miles for help.

[maize]

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

FWIW I have read elsewhere that this family was not Mormon but was from an offshoot that still espouses polygamy and settled in or near the border areas decades ago.  Horrendous either way, just mentioning this for accuracy.

I heard a radio interview with an expert on Mormon fundamentalists. These families are what she calls independent/unaffiliated Mormons--descendants mostly of people who left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when the church repudiated polygamy but not affiliated with any of the established offshoot churches.

[Scarlett]

On 11/5/2019 at 10:36 AM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

This is so sad. But those of us who live/lived far south close to the borders- this is nothing new. And it only made the news like it has because it was a bunch of white people who got killed this time. The cartels are filled with murderous animals who commit these atrocities on BOTH sides of the border. It just doesn’t get press outside or local town papers, if even that.
 

I’m sad this happened, but if it’s a wake up for the rest of the US who happily sit in their protected communities far from the border and who are feeling immune from the threat of the cartels, and think the risks are inflated or even imagined then at least a good thing might come of it in that people might demand some action. I doubt it but I hope. 
 

There are no Mexican “Authorities”. The ones who don’t cave to the cartels end up beheaded and buried in a hole. So they all come under the thumb of the cartels eventually and that is who now largely controls Mexico and has for some time . It’s laughable that Russia gets more coverage as a threat in the news media when these monsters freely come back and forth across the borders and kill with impunity, but because you don’t live here you don’t know. Anyway, I’m going to stop now before I get more political but just know this isn’t unique. Women and children have this happen all the time. They just aren’t white Mormons who make international news —because no one cares when more women from Juarez or elsewhere end up raped, torched and beheaded in a hole in the ground. 

Frankly this is just horrifying to me.  

[ktgrok]

It is interesting you brought up the cartels and legalized pot. In a book I was reading a while back (romantic suspense, not something educational) one of the characters brought up that issue. He was a cop and talking about how legalized pot just meant that the cartels started focusing on heroin / opioids instead, which are much more dangerous. So now instead of kids getting high and missing class you had kids overdosing and dying 😞

Until I read that I hadn't realized the connection. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

It is interesting you brought up the cartels and legalized pot. In a book I was reading a while back (romantic suspense, not something educational) one of the characters brought up that issue. He was a cop and talking about how legalized pot just meant that the cartels started focusing on heroin / opioids instead, which are much more dangerous. So now instead of kids getting high and missing class you had kids overdosing and dying 😞

Until I read that I hadn't realized the connection. 

I have to say that when my state was trying to decide on legalization, I never heard anything about the effect on drug cartels. I may have missed it, but it wasn’t part of the arguments on either side that I recall. Although I never watch TV or listen to the radio, so I wouldn’t have seen or heard any media ads.

[Melissa in Australia]

the huge amount of deaths from drug criminals in Mexico is on the news here  in Australia all the time. at least weekly, sometimes more often.

[DesertBlossom]

4 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

I also have questions about this “religious compound” of American expats. And why they thought they’d be safe traveling through cartel territory.

But questions aside, this attack was awful. Horrific. 

 

Some of these families have been there for nearly 100 years. I don't know about this family specifically, but these communities have been there for a long time, probably long before the cartels ran the place.

[DesertBlossom]

No, I had not heard about the mass grave in Puerto Penasco despite being close. I know dozens of families who vacation there regularly who feel it's safe enough to travel there. I haven't been to Mexico in over 20 years and I likely won't ever go back. No thanks.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, Melissa in Australia said:

the huge amount of deaths from drug criminals in Mexico is on the news here  in Australia all the time. at least weekly, sometimes more often.

Here in the UK it's reported too.

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

 

@Lanny for instance lives in Columbia, so I'll tag him to see if he agrees with me........ The average American probably still thinks of Columbia as the dangerous place as far as cartels and drugs, but that was a a thing of long ago.  

not that long ago - My ex-sil is Columbian, from bogota.  they adopted her nephew to get him out, when he'd go for a visit to his grandparents, they'd lecture him up one side and down the other.  do not show US dollars, do NOT speak English.  but their family in bogota was targeted at one point.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I'd guess they focus on all of it still, but it's probably shifting. I'm the furthest thing from an expert, but I've read that the Chinese are in on the fentanyl angle as well, so now that's piping in through Mexico too and adding to the OD's. And of course meth has been a thing for a really long time now. It's really a complex issue, because it's global and not limited to just one or two Mexican states growing/producing and selling which is what I think some people picture in their heads. It's got an international component and it's too much money from power seeking people to walk away from. My hats off to the DEA and Border Patrol and other LEO's (and their families who encourage them and put up with the danger) that try and control and fight the cartels- those are some brave people, because I find the cartels terrifying. They take no prisoners and they'll go after families too. The news, the stories we hear,  and what our friends see are such that....it's just honestly almost like an unbelievable TV drama. 

I just know that what used to be really nice areas of Mexico, areas that produced doctors and lawyers and entrepreneurs are now laid to waste in large parts. Houston is the human trafficking capital of the US, and large part of my family is from far south Texas- McAllen/San Benito/Harlingen, and have properties there, some of my friends currently own farms and ranches down in that area still, so if anyone is wondering why some lady on a farm in TX with a horse Avatar has such passionate feelings about this, well that's why. I've seen it change. We used to pop in to Mexico for fun. We don't anymore. I cannot even imagine what the cartels would do with open borders. 35 is already a super highway of contraband. Trying to imagine that is beyond my comprehension level. The cartels are like the biggest corporations you can imagine. We are talking billions of dollar economies here. Bigger than any US company. The scale is unbelievable. It's one of those things if you think about too much you'll never sleep again. 

a lot of farmers in these countries will grow opium poppies instead of food, because it's more profitable.  then people wonder why they don't have enough food to feed their own people.

eta: another bit of triva that will probably blow most people's minds (and should make them sick) is adjusted for inflation (and percentages)  - human trafficking is *significantly* more profitable than was black slavery.

Edited November 7, 2019 by gardenmom5

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I'll try and avoid being political- but honestly, if the news media spent 1/100th of the time reporting on murders, disappearances, and kidnappings in and around Mexico that they do on things like Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer, and other celebrity misdeeds etc. then the whole nation would probably be pretty horrified. I'm not saying that Harvey and Matt aren't bad people, but the amount of damage they caused is minuscule to what happens every day in Mexico and on our Southern border. People just really are clueless, and it's largely because it doesn't get covered. If you don't live there, or have business dealings there, or have relatives there, then why of course would you. But for some reason it's like the average American thinks this violence exists in a vacuum, if they acknowledge it at all. They get that people want to flee from it, but they don't get that the very people they're trying to flee from pretty much have carte blanche to do whatever they want wherever they want, and that includes to Americans and sometimes in America. They fear no one. I mean, who is going to go after them? You can't. But interstate 35 is a major drug corridor, that I believe runs right through your own state, so you're right to be horrified. I assure you they are coming right through your state with their drugs and their trafficked people and worse. It just doesn't get talked about and if you do people roll their eyes like it's rare and only affects people who are criminals. 

@Lanny for instance lives in Columbia, so I'll tag him to see if he agrees with me........ The average American probably still thinks of Columbia as the dangerous place as far as cartels and drugs, but that was a a thing of long ago. Mexico has so completely replaced, and surpassed imo, what went on in Columbia decades ago. Columbia, through a lot of hard work on their part, is now a very safe country in comparison to Mexico. Organized crime is rampant. Even the touristy places are no longer safe. 

I'd highly encourage anyone who is horrified by this to read up on exactly what all IS going on along the Mexican border states as far as drugs and human trafficing and how many bodies turn up every week. Read the Mexican papers- use Google translate. You can find them in English if you don't speak Spanish. People are worried about the Opiod crisis in the US? Well, guess where to look for who is importing it in droves. People point fingers and US Pharma for creating the drug and file law suits for various reasons, and bankrupt companies,  but know if there is an illegal money making drug that is highly addictive and easy to import (like pills and patches as opposed to bales) that the cartels are hardly going to pass it by. They're exploiting it for all it's worth. That's about all I can say without breaking board rules for politics, but this idea that legalizing marijuana was going to cut the cartels off at the knees is laughable. They also aren't keeping to one side of the border and they're not going to either. Why should they? The pay off is high and the risk is low, and there's always some other poor bastard who will do what it takes to not get killed while trying to feed his family. 

I don't know about what Lanny posted about the sex cult stuff and how that play in if it's true. But just taking this story at face value- that these are people who lived in Mexico so they could practice their religion and lifestyle in peace- it's logical that when you live somewhere, you become comfortable and that tends to lead you to minimize the idea of violence- for a typical person we all do. The rough area isn't THAT rough once you live there, you know?  It happens to other people- people who don't know better, but not you. So it's not surprising they were out driving about in their local area during the day. That was their home. It's just so sad to me all around. But it's nothing surprising that these monsters take out women and children. And babies. And men! The men get taken out in all of  this too--- imagine living in an area where just about every family you know has had someone murdered for NOTHING. Or minor things. We watch movies like the Godfather, or The Departed, or Scarface and get a two hour thrill. These people live it and so much worse. 

End soapbox. Sorry for the rant. It's just so aggravating to me that it took something THIS bad to make the international news. They found mass grave in Porto Penasco last week. 40+ people in it, just off the Arizona border. Did any of y'all read that in the news? I doubt it because most of the major US players didn't carry it. I mean why would the mainstream media care- it's just more brown people that died- it's not the headline of Kanye or Miley or Donald or someone else firing off a tweet that took that headline instead........ But you can google it now that you know and then google some more. See what happened the week before that. And the week before that. It happens ALL the time. And we should all be horrified and we should all care be they white, brown, purple, babies, elderly, male or female, American or Mexican. If Canadians living in border towns were getting bumped off in droves and buried in snow drifts, I'm pretty sure that would be front page news here, so you have to wonder why it isn't the other way around.

There is a major organized crime problem in Mexico. Sad it took more people being butchered to have it hit the waves, and it only happened to be sensational because they were American, but I hope this all makes everyone take it more seriously instead of acting like its a political stunt from either end of the aisle. 

I had not heard about that one.  My family had a short vacation years ago that included Porto Penasco.  I am horrified and have known in general what is happening.  

[Lanny]

7 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

<snip>

 for instance lives in Columbia, so I'll tag him to see if he agrees with me........ The average American probably still thinks of Columbia as the dangerous place as far as cartels and drugs, but that was a a thing of long ago. Mexico has so completely replaced, and surpassed imo, what went on in Columbia decades ago. Columbia, through a lot of hard work on their part, is now a very safe country in comparison to Mexico. Organized crime is rampant. Even the touristy places are no longer safe. 

I don't know about what Lanny posted about the sex cult stuff and how that play in if it's true. But just taking this story at face value- that these are people who lived in Mexico so they could practice their religion and lifestyle in peace- it's logical that when you live somewhere, you become comfortable and that tends to lead you to minimize the idea of violence- for a typical person we all do. The rough area isn't THAT rough once you live there, you know?  It happens to other people- people who don't know better, but not you. So it's not surprising they were out driving about in their local area during the day. That was their home. It's just so sad to me all around. But it's nothing surprising that these monsters take out women and children. And babies. And men! The men get taken out in all of  this too--- imagine living in an area where just about every family you know has had someone murdered for NOTHING. Or minor things. We watch movies like the Godfather, or The Departed, or Scarface and get a two hour thrill. These people live it and so much worse. 

 

I included the paragraphs from the above post that referenced me.

Yes, there are stereotypes about Colombia and the safety (or lack of safety) here that continue to this day. That results in less tourism, but the vast majority of tourists here seem to truly enjoy their visits to Colombia.  Mostly the people who think it is incredibly dangerous here are getting their information from things that were written years ago. Does that mean that we do not have a lot of drug related violence here? No, we still have that, but nothing like in Mexico. We live in an area where there is a lot of drug trafficking.  It's an "export" product. Most people here frown on the use of drugs.  However, there are people here who use drugs and it's in the movies and music and whatever from the USA.  In general, an export product shipped to the USA, Canada and Europe, where there's such enormous demand.  Most of the drugs seem to go to Mexico now, and then into the USA, but there are also other routes. In addition to drugs, I believe the Cartels are in (and control) many other businesses. Where there is demand there will be supply...

Yes, of course, people become comfortable with where they live, and know the dangerous parts of their city or county or state or country and try to avoid them and think they are so much safer than they would be in Colombia or Mexico. That seems to be normal.  I have been warned, for example in Miami, of areas to avoid. Los Angeles, Seattle, Chicago, Baltimore, Las Vegas, name a city in the USA and there are drugs and MS-13 members and others living there as I write this.

I hope I am not violating WTM Board rules with this, because it is not my intention for this to be Political.  My wife and I believe the fault is with the users of illegal drugs and that without their wanting to buy, there wouldn't be anyone selling.  That's controversial and not "PC", but that is what we believe, living in a drug exporting area

There are approximately 38 states in Mexico and Sonora, where this massacre occurred is one of them. Five of those states are on the U.S. State Department list, not to go there. Sonora is not one of the 5 states.  So, while it is obvious that there is an issue in Acapulco, an example of one very dangerous place, it is not so obvious that there are also problems in Cancun, but far less than those of Acapulco. Crime is everywhere and not just in Mexico.

NOTE TO MODERATORS:  If what I wrote violates WTM Board rules, PLEASE DELETE this post. Thank you!

 

[Katy]

It's so complicated.  We have relatives that live on the US side near the border.  I hope this isn't too political.  It surprises people when they find out they are liberal, Catholic, leave out water for immigrants, join protests about the way immigrants are being treated, and they're all still in support of building a border wall to reduce crime there at the border. Their kids have been shot at multiple times while riding their bikes on their own street.  My guess is the people were hoping to scare them away rather than hurt them, but who knows.  They've seen so much crime at the border and property values have plummeted, making it difficult to sell.

DH has been sent to Mexico for work multiple times.  He's given a driver and a guard and he isn't allowed to leave the hotel without them, not even to go to the store across the street.  Absolutely no going outside, even on hotel property without a guard allowed.  I remember once when he first went he was afraid I'd be worried about it, I shrugged my shoulders because my ex was in the military, and said at least it wasn't (a war zone that was particularly known for violence at the time that ex had been in twice in the past year).  Then I googled the city he was in and the first news article popped up that said it was more dangerous than the war zone town I'd just mentioned.  I thought I was fairly well informed, but I didn't know that until I searched it out.

I honestly don't know what the answer is.  Maybe decriminalizing drugs?  How has that been working for Spain?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Katy
my grammar is terrible when I have a toddler in the room

[Laura Corin]

I think it's Portugal rather than Spain

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[....]

11 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I'll try and avoid being political- but honestly, if the news media spent 1/100th of the time reporting on murders, disappearances, and kidnappings in and around Mexico that they do on things like Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer, and other celebrity misdeeds etc. then the whole nation would probably be pretty horrified.

 You can't. But interstate 35 is a major drug corridor, that I believe runs right through your own state, so you're right to be horrified. I assure you they are coming right through your state with their drugs and their trafficked people and worse. It just doesn't get talked about and if you do people roll their eyes like it's rare and only affects people who are criminals. 

 

We live in TX and I can see 35 from my living room.  I'm a couple of miles away from the #1 human trafficking location in the state.  People in Texas are very aware of what's happening - it's just the rest of the country that isn't.  And this stuff isn't just Texas along the border.  We don't live along the border.  The problems are all up and down the state.  We have to be careful when our kids play outside.  There are a lot of abduction attempts in this area.  I always sit outside when they're out - even when the 12 year-old plays outside.  The abduction attempts come in waves.  When there's one in our area, I know there's going to be about 3-4, so we are extra careful.  DD17 was even followed for several blocks by a car while she was walking the dog.  It was the one time she didn't have a phone on her.  She ended up just taking off running with the dog.  

[SquirrellyMama]

The huge number of deaths in Mexico is reported here in the US. I've seen the news reports. It is one of the reasons my outlook on immigration changed. Ive heard about the deaths of Mexican police officers at the hands of drug gangs and cartels. I've seen the stories about mass graves.

I'm surprised that others haven't seen this. I'm in the Midwest so it must be on news outlets around the country.

Kelly

[Katy]

5 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I think it's Portugal rather than Spain

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

Apparently it's Portugal, Spain, and Italy for personal use.

[Lanny]

12 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

not that long ago - My ex-sil is Columbian, from bogota.  they adopted her nephew to get him out, when he'd go for a visit to his grandparents, they'd lecture him up one side and down the other.  do not show US dollars, do NOT speak English.  but their family in bogota was targeted at one point.

 

Regarding U.S. Dollars. Those should never be used unless one is in a country where they are the legal local currency. Colombia is not one of those countries. If one uses U.S. Dollars where they are not normally used, one will receive a horrible exchange rate.

His family was targeted?  Why?

If he doesn't look like a Foreigner (Alien) he might not be spotted as one, but we (Foreigners/Aliens) can be spotted one block away and it doesn't require speaking English or even speaking. Here there are a lot of Foreigners, not as many as in the cities of Cartagena and Medellin, but the ones I have met over the years are very happy to be here.

[gardenmom5]

6 minutes ago, Lanny said:

 

Regarding U.S. Dollars. Those should never be used unless one is in a country where they are the legal local currency. Colombia is not one of those countries. If one uses U.S. Dollars where they are not normally used, one will receive a horrible exchange rate.

His family was targeted?  Why?

If he doesn't look like a Foreigner (Alien) he might not be spotted as one, but we (Foreigners/Aliens) can be spotted one block away and it doesn't require speaking English or even speaking. Here there are a lot of Foreigners, not as many as in the cities of Cartagena and Medellin, but the ones I have met over the years are very happy to be here.

my ex=sil is Latina.  her family is Hispanic (her nephew looks like he may have some native blood as well as Hispanic.).   when she and my brother met, she was in the US on vacation.  the concern for her nephew was more than "just not using" US dollars because of the exchange rate - her entire family was concerned it would identify him as having ties to the US. (and why they didn't want him to speak English either.)  they were most afraid of kidnapping.

I don't know the full story - but someone's (an aunt?) house?street?car? was bombed.  her father had business contacts that went high up in the Columbian gov't. Not sure how all that worked.  she did have a picture of him shaking hands with the then president of Columbia, because of his business.  (her brother was married to the daughter of an ambassador to Columbia,. - yes I know the western country.) 

 

[Lanny]

@gardenmom5  Thanks for the clarification. That is certainly not the norm here, but in a situation like that, I guess it could happen. Especially some years ago. 

[Frances]

6 hours ago, SquirrellyMama said:

The huge number of deaths in Mexico is reported here in the US. I've seen the news reports. It is one of the reasons my outlook on immigration changed. Ive heard about the deaths of Mexican police officers at the hands of drug gangs and cartels. I've seen the stories about mass graves.

I'm surprised that others haven't seen this. I'm in the Midwest so it must be on news outlets around the country.

Kelly

I’ve definitely read quite a bit about it in both The NY Times and the Wall Street Journal. Also the huge issues with domestic violence there and in other Central American countries. Not to mention the weak or corrupt police and judiciary systems in some of these places.

[Frances]

On 11/7/2019 at 12:43 PM, kdsuomi said:

I don't believe it's not reported on because the victims are brown. Violence in Mexico used to be reported on a lot, but now if you talk about it you are said to be trying to make people think Mexicans are dangerous etc. The immigration issues recently are what changed the reporting on this topic. 

It seems exactly the opposite to me. Lots more articles about violence, death, corruption, domestic violence, etc. in Mexico and other Central American countries to help people understand why people are fleeing or even sending unaccompanied minors. Then again, it probably depends on one’s news sources. For example, I don’t watch any news. And the majority of my news does not come from social media, but rather regular newspapers.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Frances

[Farrar]

I'm also certainly aware from American media of the problems with cartels and drug related deaths in Mexico. It is carried in the media here. You have to be looking for coverage of things that are not at the top of the headlines to read pretty much... everything that's not at the top of the headlines. When a story is ongoing like that, it get reported but it's never going to beat out the most sensationalist top news. And that's okay. With this news, it has been "above the fold" a bit but will drop back off. It doesn't mean it's not being covered.

[chiguirre]

18 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

It is interesting you brought up the cartels and legalized pot. In a book I was reading a while back (romantic suspense, not something educational) one of the characters brought up that issue. He was a cop and talking about how legalized pot just meant that the cartels started focusing on heroin / opioids instead, which are much more dangerous. So now instead of kids getting high and missing class you had kids overdosing and dying 😞

Until I read that I hadn't realized the connection. 

Most teens won't start with heroin. They start with legal prescription drugs like Oxycontin. And that's a home grown scourge.

If you'd like a nonfiction book about the opioid epidemic that's well written, I'd recommend Dreamland:

https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate-Epidemic/dp/1620402521/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=opioid+epidemic&qid=1573165365&sr=8-3

[SquirrellyMama]

41 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Oh I grew up around it, hence my very strong opinion on immigration and border security.  It’s not Mexican citizens I ever had any problem with, but the cartels and the ridiculous violence they perpetuate and import.  The amount of gang activity connected to a specific cartel in my home town is horrible, and o have distinct memories of hearing about the girls of Juarez and researching deeper about the cause back in middle school.  
 

I really don’t think people are blind, this just smacks them in the face once again with how senseless it is.  It’s horrible. I worry every time my family members go down to resort towns that used to be safe and are increasingly violent and ‘bought’.  And this is a huge reason I can’t just live and let live, libertarian style, on personal drug use.  There are massive consequences beyond the individual user in any involvement or support of that trade. Hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children have had their lives torn apart or ended by organized crime from the drug cartels.  It has to stop.  It’s about close to failed state territory down there in how little the local governments can actually do to manage it, though 😞

What changed for me was understanding why so many people wanted to come, and live in situations of poverty here in the US. It didn't seem much better here.

After hearing these stories of what is happening in Mexico I understood a little more. I know it is much more complicated, but it was a beginning for me.

[Katy]

DH has said repeatedly that if we decriminalize or legalize personal drug use cartels will just switch to human trafficking.  He never states this when I can grill him on it, it's always at a bad time.  Is there any evidence that is true?

[Shoeless]

11 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

I don't believe it's not reported on because the victims are brown. Violence in Mexico used to be reported on a lot, but now if you talk about it you are said to be trying to make people think Mexicans are dangerous etc. The immigration issues recently are what changed the reporting on this topic. 

 

I've been presented with this argument, too.  The line of thinking goes something like "Don't talk about how bad it really is, because then you'll scare people and they won't want anyone from Mexico coming into the country".  There's more I could say, but I'm already flirting too closely with politics. 

There's some willful ignorance around the issue, as well.  I have met several people who do not believe that trafficking and abductions are a thing, (one of those people is my father), and that it's "middle class hysteria". 

I live along the I-35 corridor in Texas, and yes to whomever said the abduction attempts come in waves. Every 3 or 4 months, there will be a cluster of reported attempts in this area.  Sometimes the police have been unable to verify what happened, but sometimes they *do* verify there was a real attempt, and it makes your blood run cold.  

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, Manager Mom said:

This is a short documentary from 2012 featuring the LeBaron colony and the drug cartel.  It helps explain exactly what happened the other day to that family.

WOW, that is quite a story! So it was clearly a targeted hit and not mistaken identity. I wonder if a lot of the families in the various colonies down there will decide to move back to the US after this. Obviously it would be hard to leave behind the homes and schools and farms  they've built there over the last century, but I can't imagine trying to live like that, knowing your entire family could be massacred at any random moment. 😥

[maize]

7 hours ago, Manager Mom said:

This is a short documentary from 2012 featuring the LeBaron colony and the drug cartel.  It helps explain exactly what happened the other day to that family.

 

 

More background

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/11/08/commentary-no-mormon/

Edited November 8, 2019 by maize

[unsinkable]

I've heard of this, too. Trying to protect avocado crops

 "While Mexican avocado growers have for years lived in fear of assaults and shakedowns, the situation went international in mid-August when a U.S. Department of Agriculture team of inspectors was “directly threatened” in Ziracuaretiro, a town just west of Uruapan in Michoacan. While the agency didn’t specify what happened, local authorities say a gang robbed the truck the inspectors were traveling in at gunpoint."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/10/23/avocado-industry-viagras-cartel-taking-notice-money-stream/4071161002/

 

"You could say we are 80 police officers, but we are really 30,000 more," he says. While other Michoacan self-defense groups have either withered away, been co-opted by cartels or disbanded by the government, members of Tancitaro's militia enlisted in the volunteer and professional police, which are entering their fifth year on the beat. "

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/02/02/582086654/mexicos-avocado-capital-says-it-s-kicked-cartels-off-the-farm

[goldberry]

Just recently listened to a short audiobook The Way She Spoke dealing with the murder of women in Mexico.  It was horrifying and led me to research more.  I lived in Texas for years and have family there, and I never knew it was that bad.  It did make me understand why someone (especially female) fleeing from Honduras or Guatemala might not want to stay in Mexico and instead try to get to the U.S.  Some of the stories I read don't reflect too well on law enforcement there.    https://www.audible.com/pd/the-way-she-spoke-Audiobook/B07VCLVXRN?qid=1573264799&sr=1-1&pf_rd_p=e81b7c27-6880-467a-b5a7-13cef5d729fe&pf_rd_r=8E2J2WVAXRK481MEK7QZ&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1

I also read an article though from an expert in anti-corruption tactics that said Mexico has refused to adopt many of the common practices that have been used to fight corruption in other areas including Columbia.  I can't find it now of course!  

This is a good article on the topic:  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/mexicos-security-failure-grisly-cartel-shootout-shows-who-holds-the-power

“What we saw in Culiacán was the parallel state showing itself,” said Edgardo Buscaglia, an expert on organized crime at Columbia University.

Buscaglia broadly agreed with López Obrador’s critique of his predecessors, but argued that fighting poverty can not alone end criminality: many countries far poorer than Mexico suffer far less from organized crime.

Instead, the government must start with a concerted strategy to dismantle the entrenched political and business interests which protect – and profit from – organized crime, he said.

“What López Obrador needs is not a security strategy,” he said. “What he needs is an anti-mafia strategy.”

Edited November 9, 2019 by goldberry

[Carol in Cal.]

Another good book:  Methland.  

[PeppermintPattie]

On 11/8/2019 at 1:28 AM, Corraleno said:

WOW, that is quite a story! So it was clearly a targeted hit and not mistaken identity. I wonder if a lot of the families in the various colonies down there will decide to move back to the US after this. Obviously it would be hard to leave behind the homes and schools and farms  they've built there over the last century, but I can't imagine trying to live like that, knowing your entire family could be massacred at any random moment. 😥

 

I would guess they'd be packing right now if it weren't for the polygamy. That puts them in a bad spot.

[Frances]

47 minutes ago, PeppermintPattie said:

 

I would guess they'd be packing right now if it weren't for the polygamy. That puts them in a bad spot.

It sounds like many of them no longer practice polygamy, so I don’t think that’s the only reason they’ve stayed after previous tragedies. But maybe this one will be the tipping point for many families.

[Corraleno]

About 100 people, traveling in a caravan of 18 cars, have left Mexico and are now in Arizona, heading for Phoenix and Tucson. Apparently more are planning to leave soon. Story here.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Corraleno

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

About 100 people, traveling in a caravan of 18 cars, have left Mexico and are now in Arizona, heading for Phoenix and Tucson. Apparently more are planning to leave soon. Story here.

 

 

The whole thing is just crazy.  The things I  never knew before....I wonder how many more of this group are living in Mexico.

[Ausmumof3]

On 11/7/2019 at 4:24 PM, Melissa in Australia said:

the huge amount of deaths from drug criminals in Mexico is on the news here  in Australia all the time. at least weekly, sometimes more often.

Yes I agree!  It seems surprising that this wouldn’t be the case in the us?

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes I agree!  It seems surprising that this wouldn’t be the case in the us?

I think it depends on the news sources people frequent. Does Australia have the extremely wide variety that the US does?

[Frances]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

The whole thing is just crazy.  The things I  never knew before....I wonder how many more of this group are living in Mexico.

It was definitely something I knew about before this latest tragedy. Both from news stories when Romney was running for president and from Mormon autobiographies and documentaries. But I’ve been fascinated by the religion ever since we had lots of Mormon friends and acquaintances when my husband was in grad school. 

[Ausmumof3]

12 hours ago, Frances said:

I think it depends on the news sources people frequent. Does Australia have the extremely wide variety that the US does?

Possibly not, and also I often read bbc etc so have maybe even read some of it there.

[Melissa in Australia]

12 hours ago, Frances said:

I think it depends on the news sources people frequent. Does Australia have the extremely wide variety that the US does?

Possibly Australians are more interested in worldwide events???