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FLL vs R&S - how do these compare?


StaceyinLA
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Well, the obvious biggest difference would be that R&S's textbooks are written for a classroom. All subjects are *very* traditional. R&S writes its textbooks with the theory that they will be used in a one-room, multigrade school, with one teacher who does not have the time to spend lecturing and modeling and discussing; she has time to quickly lead the children through correcting their work and giving them their next assignment. And so, everything the children need to know is in their textbooks; although there is a scripted oral classtime in the excellent teacher edition, it adds not one thing to what is written in the textbook (the first three years of the math series are different, and the first year or so of the reading/phonics, but otherwise, this is true of all subjects). IMHO, the assignments are age-appropriate, even for the first couple of English texts (which starts at second grade). I think there's value in the children's having to write their assignments on actual paper, and I think children will get much more out of it when they have done so, as opposed to doing everything orally. The series is quite comprehensive, as it does grammar *and* composition, and learning to use study aids such as a thesaurus and dictionary.

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Also, FLL is totally scripted so it tells you exactly what to say. There's a lot of repetition and memorization.

R&S English has less of that. There's a lesson to read, a section of oral questions to answer, and a section of written exercises. If you do the oral stuff, you can skip the written stuff, or you can also purchase a little workbook of worksheets to do instead. R&S also includes writing lessons and I'm not sure FLL does (there might be some copywork, can't remember).

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21 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

Adding: FLL is pretty much secular whereas R&S is most decidedly religious using the King James Bible, I believe.

FLL has just 4 levels. R&S goes through high school. 

The English series goes through 10th grade. I would expect someone who had completed the 10th grade text never to have to do grammar again, and to be able to do any kind of writing, at any time, ever.

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6 hours ago, hollyhock2 said:

Also, FLL is totally scripted so it tells you exactly what to say. There's a lot of repetition and memorization.

R&S English has less of that. There's a lesson to read, a section of oral questions to answer, and a section of written exercises. If you do the oral stuff, you can skip the written stuff, or you can also purchase a little workbook of worksheets to do instead. R&S also includes writing lessons and I'm not sure FLL does (there might be some copywork, can't remember).

Oh, see, I would disagree with you. The oral stuff doesn't replace what is in the written assignments. Ditto with the worksheets, which are not intended to replace the assignments in the text. Also, all writing counts as writing, even when it's grammar; I wouldn't skip any of it.

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Well, I’m super familiar with R&S, having used it with my kids, but not so much with FLL. What are the differences in how it is presented? Is it scripted? I guess I’m more wondering what FLL is like than R&S, since we are familiar with R&S.

Another question - if you have a 3rd grader who has never used FLL, where would you begin?

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12 hours ago, Ellie said:

Oh, see, I would disagree with you. The oral stuff doesn't replace what is in the written assignments. Ditto with the worksheets, which are not intended to replace the assignments in the text. Also, all writing counts as writing, even when it's grammar; I wouldn't skip any of it.

Yes, Ellie, I know you disagree with me. 😄 However, many people have used R&S successfully by doing it orally, and many children that young are not capable of writing that much at a time (mine included).

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11 hours ago, hollyhock2 said:

Yes, Ellie, I know you disagree with me. 😄 However, many people have used R&S successfully by doing it orally, and many children that young are not capable of writing that much at a time (mine included).

🙂

If I had an 8yo who wasn't up to the writing involved (which truly is not very much in that text), I would figure she didn't need to know most of the stuff in the text, and we'd do something else for another year or so.

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22 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

Start with level 3 of FLL.

As stated above, FLL is very scripted. We found the lessons shorter with less writing. As Ellie said, R&S is meant for a classroom whereas FLL is meant for 1 on 1 teaching. 

 

Is this gonna cover things that were expected to be memorized in previous levels, and provide the opportunity to memorize them, or will it assume knowledge of all of it? 

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On 11/3/2019 at 9:21 AM, StaceyinLA said:

Well, I’m super familiar with R&S, having used it with my kids, but not so much with FLL. What are the differences in how it is presented? Is it scripted? I guess I’m more wondering what FLL is like than R&S, since we are familiar with R&S.

Another question - if you have a 3rd grader who has never used FLL, where would you begin?

We start FLL 3 with my 3rd grader this year.  He had no formal grammar before this besides the funny fill in stories in Nat Geo kids each month.  We have had no problems starting here.  It assumes your child knows no grammar.  I was nervous about it, but it has been a great fit for both of him. He truly enjoys it and so do I l.  I had him review his curriculum this year to see how he liked everything and he gave FLL 3 10 out of 10.  He always looks forward to the optional follow up exercises and asks to do them.  I always hated grammar in school, so that's nice he enjoys it.  We are diagramming ( I never did that in school) and he loves that part.

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For those of you who use FLL, do you also use WWE at the same time?  I used the old FLL with the combined level 1 and 2 and when I went to FLL3 I added the recently released  WWE3 and it seemed like a lot of overlap to do both.  I am starting over with a new little one this year and looking for advice.

i don’t have experience with Rod and Staff English, but liked FLL 1-3.  

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48 minutes ago, Paradox5 said:

I did both FLL and WWE. They cover different skills. I skipped the narration lessons in FLL.

Can I sidetrack the conversation for a second? I plan on doing FLL with my second grader for the first time next year.  Is it right I start with FLL 2.  I am thinking of doing WWE as well.  Do I start with 1 or 2?

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6 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

 

Is this gonna cover things that were expected to be memorized in previous levels, and provide the opportunity to memorize them, or will it assume knowledge of all of it? 

There are points where the lesson says " if your child has not previously memorized this list (or definition) repeat it three times and then repeat again on subsequent days." Or something like that.

It is a very scripted program, but I was able to abridge or modify the scripting when I felt like it. The material is there and you can use it as you please! I also buy the student workbook, but rarely do we use more than half. A lot of the exercises work as well orally or, for diagramming, on scratch paper so that it isn't just fill in the blanks.

40 minutes ago, Elizabeth86 said:

Can I sidetrack the conversation for a second? I plan on doing FLL with my second grader for the first time next year.  Is it right I start with FLL 2.  I am thinking of doing WWE as well.  Do I start with 1 or 2?

FLL2 should be fine. WWE2 is also probably fine. Each 4-lesson week has a narration exercise, where the student reads a short selection and then you ask questions to help them form a narration; a short dictation exercise; copywork or another dictation; and a combined narration & dictation where you help them put together a narration and then you dictate one of their sentences back for them to write down. If you have reason to believe your student might struggle with one of these tasks, then start in WWE1, which is very similar but slightly easier. If not, start your second grader with level 2. Each year is more difficult, with WWE4 being quite tricky! In our house we spread out level 4 over two years and add some other supplements for interest and variety.

The long term goal with narration is the ability to take notes from a textbook or a lecture by effectively summarizing the presented information. Dictation helps them practice holding sentences in their head long enough to get them onto paper, useful for later writing assignments.

There is no rush to get through the WWE series, as you notice there is kind of a gap year in 6th and maybe 7th before WWS. Some students don't need the gap, some students need a longer gap, it depends on the person.

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One more thing - if FLL only goes up to level 4, would you switch from R&S to do this? What would you do after?

With R&S, I know he could stay where he is and just keep going, but I DO think he’d like something a little more fun to do, and I KNOW his sister will when she gets to this point.

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2 hours ago, StaceyinLA said:

With R&S, I know he could stay where he is and just keep going, but I DO think he’d like something a little more fun to do, and I KNOW his sister will when she gets to this point.

There is definitely nothing fun in R&S materials. 🙂

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I have another question. I looked at FLL online because I just wanted to see how it compared overall to R&S, and I notice they now have the grammar to use after FLL. Is R&S still the recommended program for after FLL? If so, why? It seems they’d naturally go into the GFTWTM after FLL.

I like that FLL is a workbook format, and I like the incorporation of the dictation/narration. I’m considering it more for dgs than I was, but not interested if I’m moving for a year or two then coming right back to R&S.

 

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I'm thinking GFTWTM wasn't out when WTM was last revised? 

We do the FLL series, coast for a year on poetry and review of grammar rules, and then move into Analytical Grammar. Once the basics are understood we don't need to constantly practice them outside of writing time, and I want to be done with grammar as its own subject before high school.

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17 hours ago, Servant4Christ said:

For this precise reason, I'm considering switching from CLE to R&S at the same grade level next year in order to extend grade 4 and help DS better master concepts as well as catch up in written output across all subjects. He's currently accelerated (not gifted) per se) so I'm wondering if slowing down to get him on the same level with his age group might be best. Any thoughts? I value your input in the threads where I've encountered your posts.

❤️

I don't think you need to worry about mastering concepts. There is enough repetition each year that he should catch on. If he's 9 or 10, I would probably recommend just keeping him at his age group (fourth or fifth).

Do you have a scope and sequence from R&S? It might be help you in making your decision.

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With my younger kids I have done FLL, although later than most people here.  Then we have moved to GFWTM, although I don't do an entire book in a year.  I have worked with R&S, but haven't seen the same retention, especially in my boys (I finally sold all my levels this last summer).  My older kids did the grammar with Phonics Road, again on our own schedule and then did GFWTM.  

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