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Dysgraphia and taking notes in College


lewelma
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I didn't want to derail the successes thread, but can someone please walk me through the technical options available and what universities often offer as accommodations for note taking in lecture or recitation. DS can type, but I doubt he could multitask typing with listening and summarizing into notes (we haven't actually tried, as his typing has only just gotten past 30wpm after years of effort). And of course for math or chemistry, he can't type in the formulas very fast even with an equation maker. Thanks for explaining the options to me!

Ruth in NZ

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I have no clue how my dd figured out how to take notes, as we didn't work on it. We did some online, video, live courses, etc., so maybe she was doing it and I was too distracted to notice it? 

People are so unique and take notes differently. Like I was looking at my dh's notes from some classes he did in grad school, and I was like HOW DOES HE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED??? He can't write and chew gum at the same time, so he literally has like A WORD on a line. But if you ask him, he has the whole thing in his head, fleshed out. And me, I have to write out these copious notes, because I remember squat, diddley. So who has the disability? Hahaha.

So he should start with things that are brief and unimportant, low stakes. Like Great Courses, a webinar, whatever. And just try out technologies. If you give a teen all the tech in buffet, they can figure it out. It's really their problem, kwim? It's their problem to research, find the apps, problem solve. Their issues and their need for tech go beyond us, and it needs to be them solving it. Don't solve it for him, because you will not be there solving things for him. Let him figure this out, because THAT is the real lesson.

I say that, and Heathermomster was way more hands-on. I totally, totally admire what she did and she got great results. But see what @Heathermomster says. I think her ds is probably customizing and tweaking, refining, problem solving. There's a lot of wisdom in knowing what your dc needs. My ds can't be thrown to the wolves the way my dd was. 

Technically in the US our documentation (psych reports, audiology reports, etc.) will specify note takers. Then it depends on how the particular university rolls as to how you make that happen. I think my dd's documentation *says* note takers and she doesn't use it. I would let your ds experiment a bit, see what the universities do that he's looking at, think through how it would look in the major (math vs. liberal arts), etc.

Edited by PeterPan
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DS types **at best** 30 wpm.  He’s been using an Echo Smartpen since the 10th grade.  He’s been taking outside classes and sitting in NT classrooms throughout high school.  His uni supplies dictation sw and Echo Smartpens as the accommodation for SLD of written expression because the pen records lecture audio.  The dictation sw was flaky and DS became frustrated with it.  I have no idea whether these accommodations are typical of other schools.  My son takes Cornell style notes and summarizes lecture notes after class. He also participates in study groups with classmates.  He downloads PowerPoints for lecture provided by the professors and stores them on his iPad.  The ppts are generally color filled and too costly to print on actual paper.  

Off the top of my head, I can think of about three varieties of smartpens.  The first variety of smartpen records the written notes and lecture audio on the actual pen.  The notes are taken using the pen with a special notebook. Afterwords, the data on the pen can be transferred to desktop software using a usb cable.  The Echo Smartpen works this way.  A second variety of smartpen syncs with an Android or iOS device via bluetooth to store the handwritten notes which are written on special paper.  The audio of the lecture is recorded using the Android/iOS app and synced to the handwritten notes within the app.  My son likes the notes on his phone because he can review often. The Newyes, Neo N2, and Aegir Smartpens all work this way.  The final way to record audio and sync with handwritten notes is to use an iPad with the bluetooth Apple pen and write notes directly inside the Notability app.  Other iOS apps exist for note taking, and I’m no expert.  I expect a Win Surface might have the ability to sync audio with notes as well.  It seems likely but I don’t know for sure.

LaTex has been recommended for typing math.  My son typed everything except math during middle and high school.  He took chemistry and physics with algebra at the cover.  I encouraged my son to use as much paper as he needed for math problem-solving. The university gave him graph paper for his math class along with testing in isolation and extended test taking time.

DS has also used his phone to take pictures of notes and the board.  Did I answer your questions?  

Edited by Heathermomster
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Very helpful, guys, thanks!

So far, ds has never taken notes on anything oral or written. He has no external classes and none he can take that will lead to his graduation here in NZ. The correspondence school we must use is all online text based, which is *really* not ideal. So ds will use the print based materials that I saved from his older brother before they phased print based materials out. He can underline text, and I am starting to get him thinking about a summary sheet.  But he has never taken a test before. Like NEVER. Next year there will be a few tests as he enters the correspondence school. I am going to have to fight for accommodations, and my current goal is to get him a computer for all exams.  My understanding from others is that he can write the chemistry formulas by hand and then type all written answers, then they print and staple his typed answers to the test paper when he turns it in. This is for the national high school exams. I am unclear what happens at the university he will attend (already chosen and entrance guaranteed). 

This boy is my push and pull to the finish line boy, but he is starting to take ownership.  But until there is a requirement for note taking in lecture, I doubt he will go hunt down technology. His father was a very late bloomer, and ds is quite similar. My goal is to get him college ready in 2 years, and I just hadn't even thought about the lectures situation, which made me think that I better think that through. I need to get him practicing note taking, so I need to talk to him about the software and provide a context to give it a go. 

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It sounds like he learns well through discussion and that might be a good strength for him in his classes.  Do you know if in his major, there are a lot of lectures where there is just a lot of information being put out through lecture?  Or if more classes are going to have discussions?  If he has choices to take classes with more discussion, that might go really well for him.  

For my older son, he is a freshman, and honestly he is not called on to take many notes at this point, because either he doesn't "need" to take notes (because he does learn well from listening) and then because there are not long lecture periods in his classes where he is expected to sit and take notes.  There is more discussion and then that is good for him.  

I'm not saying it's not important, but it is also just one thing and a lot of times I think other strengths can fill in for note-taking in practice.  

Really it goes better than I would have thought, but also, I did not realize my son was strong in listening and discussion, because that's not something I saw when he was younger and I don't particularly see it at home.  

Just to be positive, lol.    

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My ds (severe hearing impairment and a host of other dx) used a small tape recorder because we couldn't afford the smart pens technology.  It was helpful, at times.  The note taker accommodation - that is an interesting one.  The student is required to find and ask a fellow student in the class to either use special paper (the disability office typically provides) that is placed under their paper that copies the notes or some other way to get a copy of the notes - taking pictures with their phone, xeroxing.  This can be a problem because the student is trying to find someone that they think can take good notes that are useful and legible.  It can work out just fine as long as you've found a the great note taker in the class.  My dd was asked to do this for a vision impaired student in a math course and she was good in math and wrote clear so that was a win for that student (on the flip side, the student played games on his phone the entire lecture time because he didn't have to worry about paying attention because he knew the notes would be clear and helpful - so this can be a downside to a student paying attention).  Should the student not feel comfortable asking other students the professor is supposed to intercede (my ds had one that refused! - until the disability office stepped in).  Another accommodation that my ds had was being provided an outline prior to the lectures of the professor's lecture so that it had the major points covered with space beneath to write in key words, etc. which helped in processing the information and keeping him on track.  After the lecture, some professors provided the rest of the information so he could be sure he caught it all.  Again, some professors just won't provide this despite the written documentation.

The most important fact in using anything to help the student in the lecture hall - it must be in writing.  Gone are the days in which students could just set down the recorder and go back and listen to it later - whether you had a disability or not.  It is not allowed - without the explicit written approval.  My ds had a professor who told him that he couldn't record the lecture but once it was made clear that it specifically said he could on his Memorandum of Accommodations the professor could not longer ignore it.  Your student may not use all that is listed on that MOA but it is better to have it on there from the start and the student can use what works for them - each class can be different.  It is harder to add something to that MOA than it is to take away.

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6 hours ago, lewelma said:

He has no external classes and none he can take that will lead to his graduation here in NZ.

Have you looked at MOOCs? They might be the right level to interest him. MIT, all kinds of places have them. He just needs some experiences, doesn't have to be for credit.

On the late blooming, there's this kind of balance between their readiness to fly and their need for time. Can he DE?

Edited by PeterPan
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My daughter's university is supposed to provide note takers for documented learning needs.  But the last year or two they cut the stipend for the note takers to basically just on a volunteer basis, which made things a lot more difficult. 

My daughter's apple pencil and ipad (notability app) allows her to take notes synced with the recording, and when she taps a part of her notes the recording will jump to that spot. Or she can just straight record if she wanted to. 

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4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Have you looked at MOOCs? They might be the right level to interest him. MIT, all kinds of places have them. He just needs some experiences, doesn't have to be for credit.

On the late blooming, there's this kind of balance between their readiness to fly and their need for time. Can he DE?

No, he cannot DE. He must past 11th grade english first for *any* subject at the University.  In addition, it won't count for high school graduation, and we need to put all his time into the credits he does need. He has to take about 20 national exams to get into uni here. (5 chemistry, 4 english, 5 math, 5 geography, 1 music I think). Not tons of extra time. 

We could look at a MOOC.  I agree that he just needs to practice and find a way. I'll go look into the tech, never heard of any of it. 

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2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

My daughter's university is supposed to provide note takers for documented learning needs.  But the last year or two they cut the stipend for the note takers to basically just on a volunteer basis, which made things a lot more difficult. 

Are you saying that some universities give students a person to sit in class and take notes for them?!?!?!  

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I am considering having ds only take 3 courses his first semester so that he will have time to learn how to learn in a more formal setting. Older son's university does not give grades in the first term so that freshman can figure things out without fear of mucking up their transcript.  Pretty awesome idea. Wish my younger ds's uni did that. 

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32 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Are you saying that some universities give students a person to sit in class and take notes for them?!?!?!  

Sorry - I was slightly wrong.  Previously my dd's U offered stipends to note takers who were already taking the class if there was someone in the class that needed those accommodations.  Now they just give notetakers a certificate and a luncheon at the end of the quarter to thank them.  

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For my oldest: was allowed to record lectures.  And she took her phone and took picture of anything on the board. asked for pdfs to be emailed, but then most of the classes had a website where prof put the pdf anyway.  (for context, she graduated in 2018, stem major, autism (HF),  adhd, dysgraphia (suspected), but very strong auditory memory skills.  If it would help any, here's a link to her alma mater and their disabilities accommodations info webage to get an idea of the kinds of papertrail needed at college level in US and what can be expected at places following the disability laws at college level.  Basically https://www.cbu.edu/disability-accommodations

 

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Since you know what uni he’ll go to, maybe contact them and find out options.  Then he could start practicing now. 

I have found Otter an excellent  iPhone  voice recording app (having a good external mike can help too). 

and Office Lens good for taking pictures of blackboards etc

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cbollin - CBU has wonderful accommodations - more than I've seen anywhere in my state!  I wish this were closer to home.  It is located in my dream state but my dh won't move 😞  My ds is currently attending the big Christian university in VA and they could and should do soooooo much more for their students with disability but I think they've fallen into the trap of "there are plenty of other students who want that spot so if you can't succeed sorry."  There is an organization trying to improve the accommodations at universities but first it has to be written into law in a much clearer fashion.  It is clearly written for the  K-12 but things drop off at the university level.

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