Fallacy Detective vs Art of Argument

[Coco_Clark]

What are your experiences with these two programs?  Even better, is there anyone who has done both?

I'm looking for a 1 semester course to be completed over a year (1 or 2 days a week).  Both programs look that size.

My students would be two 7th graders (age 12/13) with my 6th and 5th graders maybe tagging along but maybe not.  I definitely want it geared towards the older two. Both programs look appropriate for that age.

Fallacy Detective's comic strips may be appealing as both my kids love classic comics.  But it also looks like most people follow it up with another intro to logic. I'm not saying it's the ONLY logic I'll ever do, but I don't like repeating myself, if that makes sense. 

Art of Argument looks more rigorous, which appeals to my desire not to have to repeat logic over and over in increasing difficulty...and we've enjoyed other CAP programs (writing and rhetoric, song school latin) but would it be TOO rigorous for brand new middle school logic students?  

[Momto6inIN]

My kids have done both. They use Fallacy Detective as part of their Pre-debate training in speech and debate club. My kids have used it in 7th grade, but there are younger students in the class who have taken it and been fine. We use Art of Argument at home, usually in 8th grade. It is more sophisticated than Fallacy Detective, but still silly and fun. They overlap some, but I wouldn't call them redundant. We do not do formal logic here, we're usually done after AofA. 

[Coco_Clark]

30 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

My kids have done both. They use Fallacy Detective as part of their Pre-debate training in speech and debate club. My kids have used it in 7th grade, but there are younger students in the class who have taken it and been fine. We use Art of Argument at home, usually in 8th grade. It is more sophisticated than Fallacy Detective, but still silly and fun. They overlap some, but I wouldn't call them redundant. We do not do formal logic here, we're usually done after AofA. 

 

If you were to pick just one to use, which would you pick?

[Momto6inIN]

9 hours ago, Coco_Clark said:

 

If you were to pick just one to use, which would you pick?

Art of Argument because it's more thorough

[wendyroo]

We have not used both, in fact, we haven't really used either.

This year I planned on working through Fallacy Detective with my 5th grader a couple days a week.  He inexplicably hated it.  I don't know why - it seemed fine to me, and he liked the comics, but it really did not click with him.  This is my kid who is normally up for learning anything non-fiction - he reads encyclopedias and raptly watches Great Courses lectures by choice.  And yet Fallacy Detective was leaving him feeling that logic was boring and pointless. 

I've set logic aside for now - not because I think he isn't ready, I have no question that he is - but because I want to find a way to make it seem more relevant to his life.  Later this year, or maybe next year, I am going to look into Art of Argument or maybe Don't Get Fooled!: How to Analyze Claims for Fallacies, Biases, and Other Deceptions (I like that this seems to have very kid-centered examples that show how the fallacies could crop up with a family member, peer, coach, etc).

Wendy

[hollyhock2]

I've only ever used FD so I can't compare the two. I pair it with The Thinking Toolbox in 8th grade. I've tried it younger, but it doesn't work. I follow it up with The Rulebook for Arguments in 9th or so, but for learning logical fallacies, it's the only thing I use. Not sure how helpful that is.

Edited October 29, 2019 by hollyhock2

[serendipitous journey]

We're doing Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox with elder DS.  He really likes it, and I have him make a flashcard for the lessons so we can easily ensure he's learning it, and it sticks. 

Editing: I strongly edited my earlier answer so that I could ask: what goals for "logic" do you have for the child?  and is there a particular educational model or path you'd like to follow?

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by serendipitous journey

[Coco_Clark]

On 11/2/2019 at 9:39 AM, serendipitous journey said:

We're doing Fallacy Detective/Thinking Toolbox with elder DS.  He really likes it, and I have him make a flashcard for the lessons so we can easily ensure he's learning it, and it sticks. 

Editing: I strongly edited my earlier answer so that I could ask: what goals for "logic" do you have for the child?  and is there a particular educational model or path you'd like to follow?

 

We follow a liberal arts model.  I used to say classical but lately I feel like the term is loaded- locally 90% of classical families are CC.  I don't follow the "ages and stages" method of classical education but I am interested in the trivium/quadrivium.

 My goals for logic...  Mostly I see logical thinking budding in my oldest 4 children.  I think they would enjoy learning about logical fallicies and think it's worth learning.  We are doing a semester study of government next year and a bit of formal logic would dovetail nicely with listening to debates 🙄

I don't have an end goal necessarily.

[serendipitous journey]

5 hours ago, Coco_Clark said:

We follow a liberal arts model.  I used to say classical but lately I feel like the term is loaded- locally 90% of classical families are CC.  I don't follow the "ages and stages" method of classical education but I am interested in the trivium/quadrivium.

 My goals for logic...  Mostly I see logical thinking budding in my oldest 4 children.  I think they would enjoy learning about logical fallicies and think it's worth learning.  We are doing a semester study of government next year and a bit of formal logic would dovetail nicely with listening to debates 🙄

I don't have an end goal necessarily.

For trivium/liberal arts goals, I see the benefits of a multi-year logic study.  I don't have BTDT on this yet, partly because educating my elder has been such a wild ride, but it seems that AofA is worth doing with your older two, and following with the next book Discover of Deduction sometime in the "logic" stage.  This is one of the WTM paths (more or less 😉 ) and as my elder jettisons himself into the Rhetoric stage I am getting a sense of the value of it. 

I'd say that if you want to try Fallacy Detective, think of it as installing hooks & building enthusiasm.  From my experience, totally worthwhile along these lines.  Not sure if that helps. 

[Kathryn]

I looked at both and chose Art of Argument. My son actually just took the final exam on Friday. He really enjoyed it. Actually, my middle enjoyed listening in and joining in at times. I’m actually teaching a class at our co-op based on it. Some of the examples could be considered controversial (Birth control, prostitution, existence of God, politics, etc.), but there aren’t a lot of that sort. I’m fine discussing those topics with my own child, so we went over them, but I just skipped over those examples in my presentation during co-op.

[ByGrace3]

We have used both. dd did AoA in 7th as a part of a co-op and I didn't feel like we covered it as well as we could have so I had her repeat it in 8th through Schole Academy. It was wonderful! I am having ds do Fallacy Detective in 7th as a precursor to Schole Academy's AoA next year. dd followed AoA up with Discovery of Deduction this year. 

If I had to choose one it would be AoF, but I would not choose it for 5th/6th graders. 7th/8th was more appropriate.