PSA - if you get SAD in the winter

[ktgrok]

NOW is the time to break out your therapy light box!!! I've been more and more exhausted, grumpy, and plain miserable lately and finally realized that although it is still super hot and humid here in florida the days have already gotten shorter. Yup, my SAD is flaring up, bigger and better than ever. 

So I half heartedly got out the light box but forgot it has to be within 2 feet of your eyes, and so just set it on a shelf in the kitchen and it didn't do squat. Today is day 2 of having it in the right place, and I'm hoping the end of my "must hibernate! Leave me alone so I can eat ALL the food and then hide under a blanket until spring or I will bite your head of" phase. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

I've had a really rough year, but I was starting to feel like myself again. Then for the last few weeks I felt like I made no progress at all, I've been crying almost every day. I'm seeing my doctor in a few weeks, but I'm so glad I saw this post. I wondered if it could be SAD but I thought it was too soon. 

[catz]

Does anyone have good recommendations for a reasonably priced one?

[Jentrovert]

3 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

I started using one last fall and discovered that I do best if I also use it on days it will be overcast, regardless of season/temperature. It sounds weird, but using it first thing in the morning seems to have a significant effect on how easily I can fall asleep at a reasonable time that night. I saved the box but I don’t think I’ll be putting the light back into it.

i dread the shorter days because it reduces the opportunity to get out for a walk in the daylight before getting into the business of the day.

 

I actually use mine year round. It's easier for me to keep the habit, and I tend to hibernate in July and August. We hit those months hard doing school, since it's too miserable to be outside except very early morning. 

[Momto6inIN]

4 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Does anyone have good recommendations for a reasonably priced 

http://Verilux HappyLight Energy Lamp 5000 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002Q2H2JC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_yWETDb6MG0370

I have this one. It's currently unavailable because I bought it several years ago, but maybe they have a newer model?

Edited October 27, 2019 by Momto6inIN
Eta not sure why the link wouldn't work, it's a Verilux Happy Light

[ScoutTN]

Thanks for the reminder! I was driving home from my mom's an hour or so ago and the grayness outside was depressing. Getting my happi light and my humidifier out tomorrow morning while the coffee brews! 

 

[BeachGal]

10 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Does anyone have good recommendations for a reasonably priced one?

 

Verilux and Carex. The studies I saw used 10,000 lux lamps that I think were made by  Carex.

[klmama]

Thanks for the reminder. I just got mine out to use in the a.m.

[PinkTulip]

Thank you for posting this. I have dealt with winter depression for most of my life. I have looked into getting a happy light in January/February for years but never actually got one. Due to some personal relationship issues, I am predicting this year is going to be particularly rough, so I’m going to order one tonight. 

[daijobu]

FYI, I used our Happy Light when I was waking up early in order to avoid jet lag on a long trip East.  My goal was to fool my body into thinking the sun was rising earlier by shining it on my face at 4am while drinking coffee and watching YouTube.  I think it worked because I didn't have any of those horrible sleep-all day-long jet lat episodes.  

[dirty ethel rackham]

I started putting a reminder in my calendar to start using it in early-mid october.  Waiting until I feel bad is too late because then I have trouble being consistent with it.  It is on my kitchen table and I sit in front of it as I eat breakfast and plan my day.  Some days I only have 10 minutes in the morning, but it is worth it.  Mine is an older model and it pretty big.  There are newer models that aren't as big.

[BeachGal]

Costco is selling a Verilux Happy Light and it’s on sale, too. It’s LED and 10,000 lux which should do the trick. 

[Tanaqui]

Thanks for the reminder. Here it's 7am and the sun's not even up yet. BAH. HUMBUG.

[ktgrok]

I will say that after several days I do feel it is helping! I definitely feel less of the "world is ending, no point to life, go curl up under the covers and stay there" feeling. Also, maybe a fluke but libido seems to have increased. 

[vonbon]

Skin cancer / light boxes - can anyone weigh in?

I researched SAD / light boxes last year, but didn't end up getting one because of some reviews I read.  It sounds like some lightboxes emit the kind of light you DON'T want, if you have fair skin and battle skin cancer / pre-cancerous issues?  

How does one balance out the need for sunlight and Vitamin D and the avoidance of damaging light with one of these things?  Especially if you need to be within 2 feet of it?

Any thoughts?  Thanks so much!  

[vonbon]

I searched for the light box mentioned above at Costco and this is the sort of website and information that popped up last time I researched these things: 

https://portlandpsychotherapyclinic.com/2011/11/dont-get-your-light-therapy-at-the-portland-costco/

I want to be proactive and I think there's really good data out there about light boxes + SAD.  I'm wary and skeptical of junk science and a lot of internet info, but this kind of stuff gives me pause WRT skin cancer / eye damage...  

Thanks to anyone who's researched this in depth and wouldn't mind passing on your thoughts!

***

If you don't wish to click on an external link, here are some pertinent parts of the article (he goes on to share info about other light box options): 

It works really well and most people respond within in two weeks of beginning the treatment. If you have symptoms of seasonal affective disorder or the “Winter Blues” you should seriously consider getting light therapy device.

Unfortunately, the manufacture and sale of light therapy devices is completely unregulated by the government. 

Typically, a good light therapy device is a little expensive. If someone is selling you a broad spectrum light therapy device for under $150, you should probably be suspicious (though there are some exceptions). It’s likely that it has not been manufactured to the standards used in the research studies and could be ineffective or potentially dangerous for your vision. Tested devices are typically 10,000 lux (a measure of intensity) and should say something about being “broad spectrum” and have shielding from harmful “UV rays.” It’s the UV rays that are put off by fluorescent lights that can harm your eyes.

Unfortunately, one of the biggest sellers of questionable light therapy devices is Costco.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, vonbon said:

Skin cancer / light boxes - can anyone weigh in?

I researched SAD / light boxes last year, but didn't end up getting one because of some reviews I read.  It sounds like some lightboxes emit the kind of light you DON'T want, if you have fair skin and battle skin cancer / pre-cancerous issues?  

How does one balance out the need for sunlight and Vitamin D and the avoidance of damaging light with one of these things?  Especially if you need to be within 2 feet of it?

Any thoughts?  Thanks so much!  

Honestly? It's bad enough for me that mental health has to be my priority. I cannot tolerate another year of being nearly nonfunctional for months on end. I'll keep up with my dermatologist appointments, but going without light therapy just isn't an option. 

[Tanaqui]

Vonbon, are you conflating light boxes with UV lamps of the sort we use for pet lizards?

[BeachGal]

5 hours ago, vonbon said:

Skin cancer / light boxes - can anyone weigh in?

I researched SAD / light boxes last year, but didn't end up getting one because of some reviews I read.  It sounds like some lightboxes emit the kind of light you DON'T want, if you have fair skin and battle skin cancer / pre-cancerous issues?  

How does one balance out the need for sunlight and Vitamin D and the avoidance of damaging light with one of these things?  Especially if you need to be within 2 feet of it?

Any thoughts?  Thanks so much!  

 

I have not looked into it too much but I’ve heard the nail drying lamps, even LED, can cause skin cancer. I’ll have to read up on it before opening the Costco LED lamp. Thanks for mentioning that, vonbon.

I have bought fluorescent Carex lamps, 10,000 lux, for my kids. What I don’t like is 1) they’re a bit janky and  2) they’re fugly. LOL. The kids don’t seem to care, though.

[vonbon]

OK, thanks for the link from Columbia--I'll check that out.  

Nope; not conflating lightboxes and lizard lamps!  🤣

7 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Honestly? It's bad enough for me that mental health has to be my priority. I cannot tolerate another year of being nearly nonfunctional for months on end. I'll keep up with my dermatologist appointments, but going without light therapy just isn't an option. 

Yeah, I was kind of hesitant to say anything, because maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill or over-complicating things.  I have a tendency to do that 🤔 and then not actually change anything.  Hence, never followed through on a light box last year, even though I think it could help balance hormones, improve sleep and mood, etc.)...

But I'm super-careful about the sun and the last few years, I'm having stuff burned / cut off my face every year.  I live in an area with intense light half of the year and I enjoy swimming and a lot of outdoor activities.  Whilst I could probably use the benefits of a lightbox in the darker months, I don't want to increase bad light exposure.  The article I linked up above does list the Carex as a good option.  More expensive, but maybe worth it for those with pre-cancerous / fair skin issues.  

Off to read...  Thanks for the replies--  

[vonbon]

Oops--internet cut out as I was trying to post-- 

Edited November 1, 2019 by vonbon
Internet connection issues

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, vonbon said:

OK, thanks for the link from Columbia--I'll check that out.  

Nope; not conflating lightboxes and lizard lamps!  🤣

Yeah, I was kind of hesitant to say anything, because maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill or over-complicating things.  I have a tendency to do that 🤔 and then not actually change anything.  Hence, never followed through on a light box last year, even though I think it could help balance hormones, improve sleep and mood, etc.)...

But I'm super-careful about the sun and the last few years, I'm having stuff burned / cut off my face every year.  I live in an area with intense light half of the year and I enjoy swimming and a lot of outdoor activities.  Whilst I could probably use the benefits of a lightbox in the darker months, I don't want to increase bad light exposure.  The article I linked up above does list the Carex as a good option.  More expensive, but maybe worth it for those with pre-cancerous / fair skin issues.  

Off to read...  Thanks for the replies--  

yeah - I've had two basal cell tumors removed and actinic keratitis all over. But I'd risk another basal cell/scar/etc to be able to function and you know, go to the grocery store without crying, etc during the winter. 

[vonbon]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

yeah - I've had two basal cell tumors removed and actinic keratitis all over. But I'd risk another basal cell/scar/etc to be able to function and you know, go to the grocery store without crying, etc during the winter. 

Oy!  Yes, I get it!  Sometimes you just have to prioritize the biggest issues first and then go from there.  Thanks for the PSA!  I'm going to see if this might be a solution to insomnia / circadian rhythm issues.  

[BeachGal]

7 hours ago, vonbon said:

Oy!  Yes, I get it!  Sometimes you just have to prioritize the biggest issues first and then go from there.  Thanks for the PSA!  I'm going to see if this might be a solution to insomnia / circadian rhythm issues.  

Light exposure definitely affects circadian rhythm. When you start and stop eating, too. Satchin Panda is a researcher at the Salk Institute who specializes in circadian biology. He’s doing a lot of interesting research in this area.

A good sleep researcher is Matthew Walker.

You might already know who they are but if not, they both have info online including Ted Talks and interviews. Good stuff.

[regentrude]

I finally bought one. After thinking about it every February, and putting it off with the thought "nah, it's almost spring".

[wintermom]

I have to say that this thread is kind of surprising to me, especially since it's started by someone from a far south location. Most of the retired people I know leave Canada and head to Florida to get more sun. 😉  

 

[nevergiveup]

So, I have an Ott-lite and asked customer service what sort of lux it has and if it could be used for seasonal affective disorder.  This is the response I received:

"Unfortunately Ottlite is unable to make any claim to SAD, it is recommended to confer with your physician regarding SAD.

 

All of Ottlite’s products is a 1 O’clock afternoon sunshine without the heat, glare or rays (no UVA, no UVB, and only the smallest UVC enough to assist with plant growth).

 

All of Ottlite’s products has a CRI (Color Rendering Index) of above 90, with the Kelvin temperature between 5000-6000."

Soooo, does this mean that their lamps would be work for treating SAD or not? There was no mention of "lux" which seems to be a gauge for happy lights.

Thanks for helping me interpret this!!!

[wintermom]

1 hour ago, Seasider too said:

 

It’s all relative. Winter days are shorter than summer days no matter where in the northern hemisphere you live. Only on or very near the equator would you have consistent lengths of day and night. 

Of course it’s worse for farther northern folks, but southerners aren’t entirely immune. 

?? How much sunlight does one actually need?  I lived in Norway for 4 years and never met anyone with SADS and never got it myself, and they get very little sunlight in the winters. They just get on with things, whether it's in the dark or not. I think some of this stuff is a little bit of hype, TBH. 

[wintermom]

18 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

FWIW, both my primary care physician and my dh would absolutely disagree with you. 

So what is the # hours with artificial light is needed, according to your dr and dh? Keeping in mind that placebos are highly effective if one believes they will work. I'm just too cheap to buy into it, I guess.

 

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, wintermom said:

I have to say that this thread is kind of surprising to me, especially since it's started by someone from a far south location. Most of the retired people I know leave Canada and head to Florida to get more sun. 😉  

 

About 4% of people have SAD generally, only about 1% of Floridians do. So significantly less people, but not none. I guess I'm just lucky that way. 

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

?? How much sunlight does one actually need?  I lived in Norway for 4 years and never met anyone with SADS and never got it myself, and they get very little sunlight in the winters. They just get on with things, whether it's in the dark or not. I think some of this stuff is a little bit of hype, TBH. 

Gee, thanks. I'll make sure to tell my family when they are dealing with a depressed, anxious wife mother for several months a year that it is actually just hype. 

But in case you are not trying to be dismissive and insensitive, I can tell you that mine started 3 years ago. I am a happy person who never had anxiety or depression, but now when the days start to shorten I become more and more depressed to the point where I will end up just crying in the grocery store for no reason. I am also short tempered and incredibly fatigued and unproductive. I didn't think the light would work but the first time this happened I was pregnant so not wanting to jump onto medication. It was miraculous. I use it for 30 minutes a day, first thing in the morning, to reset circadian rhythms. 

The issue with SAD is the body becomes confused and has too much melatonin and not enough serotonin. Some people are more sensitive to changes in daylight than others. 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, wintermom said:

?? How much sunlight does one actually need?  I lived in Norway for 4 years and never met anyone with SADS and never got it myself, and they get very little sunlight in the winters. They just get on with things, whether it's in the dark or not. I think some of this stuff is a little bit of hype, TBH. 

Thank you. Telling a person who suffers from depression they should just "get on with things" is super helpful. Because we're all just making it up and simply need to pull ourselves together.

Edited November 2, 2019 by regentrude

[ktgrok]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Thank you. Telling a person who suffers from depression they should just "get on with things" is super helpful. Because we're all just making it up and simply need to pull ourselves together.

And its not like people with SAD go around just telling everyone they meet that they have it! For all she knows plenty f people she me had it and were using a light, meds, etc. 

[wintermom]

My apologies. APA comes out with new names and numbers for stuff over the decades and it's easy to get a little sceptical. This science is not exact. And 30 years ago it certainly didn't have it's own DSM-5 classification. 

[wintermom]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

About 4% of people have SAD generally, only about 1% of Floridians do. So significantly less people, but not none. I guess I'm just lucky that way. 

Gee, thanks. I'll make sure to tell my family when they are dealing with a depressed, anxious wife mother for several months a year that it is actually just hype. 

But in case you are not trying to be dismissive and insensitive, I can tell you that mine started 3 years ago. I am a happy person who never had anxiety or depression, but now when the days start to shorten I become more and more depressed to the point where I will end up just crying in the grocery store for no reason. I am also short tempered and incredibly fatigued and unproductive. I didn't think the light would work but the first time this happened I was pregnant so not wanting to jump onto medication. It was miraculous. I use it for 30 minutes a day, first thing in the morning, to reset circadian rhythms. 

The issue with SAD is the body becomes confused and has too much melatonin and not enough serotonin. Some people are more sensitive to changes in daylight than others. 

Can you appreciate my honest question, that when you live so close to the equator that the changes in daylight are miniscule compared to northern countries, it's very confusing.  I have never met anyone who said they had SAD, and I've only ever lived in the far north. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by wintermom

[ktgrok]

23 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Can you appreciate my honest question, that when you live so close to the equator that the changes in daylight are miniscule compared to northern countries, it's very confusing.  I have never met anyone who said they had SAD, and I've only ever lived in the far north. 

A question doesn't include telling people that they are just falling for hype. That's a statement, and that was the offensive part. The question was not a problem. It was the dismissive attitude toward what people were telling you they experience that was the problem. 

And again, people don't go around telling people they have it. 

Also, people with it may not choose to live in the far north. I wouldn't. In fact, my husband has turned down job opportunities because of it. 

But mostly, I doubt they go around telling people about it if they do have it. I don't in my day to day life tell people. 

And my family notices my mood change before I do - my husband dis the one that told me to get out the light this year and last year when he noticed it. So not me just thinking oh, it's fall, I should be depressed. 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Ktgrok

[ktgrok]

So, yes, people in Norway have this issue, even though they didn't tell you. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/03/seasonal-affective-disorder-mosaic/519495/

I'd also consider that there are genetic variances, and people that have managed to thrive in that area are genetically less disposed towards SAD.

[Tanaqui]

Wow, wintermom, you are being REALLY rude.

Quote

I have never met anyone who said they had SAD, and I've only ever lived in the far north. 

 

You're speaking to several people right now who have told you that they do. Maybe the people you know IRL know better than to disclose things to you, because you are rudely dismissive and nobody wants to deal with that.

[Tanaqui]

Also, just FYI, SAD was added to the DSM-III back in 1987, so yes, it's been in the DSM thirty years. However, it's been recognized as a disorder for far longer, since the 19th century.

[wintermom]

3 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Wow, wintermom, you are being REALLY rude.

 

You're speaking to several people right now who have told you that they do. Maybe the people you know IRL know better than to disclose things to you, because you are rudely dismissive and nobody wants to deal with that.

You're right. Wrong audience, for sure. I'll go crawl back into my hibernation hole now. Sorry I popped in here. Hope the light helps with those symptoms when winter comes.

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Also, just FYI, SAD was added to the DSM-III back in 1987, so yes, it's been in the DSM thirty years. However, it's been recognized as a disorder for far longer, since the 19th century.

When I grew up in East Germany, we had the term "spring lethargy" to describe the lack of energy in very early spring, and doctors attributed that to a lack of vitamins from fresh veggies (since over the winter, all that was available were cabbage, carrots, and apples which were stored from the fall harvest). I wonder whether that might not have actually been SAD. 

[ktgrok]

When researching SAD I had to shake my head at the sloppy science in one article that said that maybe the reason some people don't get SAD is they have a better attitude about winter. They figured this out by asking people how they feel about winter - if they think it is fun, or gloomy, or whatever and then correlating that with people with SAD. People with SAD had a worse attitude about winter. Which, they concluded, probably caused the SAD and they should just have a better attitude and it will fix it.

At no point did they consider that having SAD might be WHY they have a poor attitude about winter. 🙄

[ktgrok]

I have this one - looks like it isn't made anymore but I'm sure there is one similar. https://amzn.to/2oXdwLs

[OH_Homeschooler]

On 11/1/2019 at 10:03 PM, Ktgrok said:

A question doesn't include telling people that they are just falling for hype. That's a statement, and that was the offensive part. The question was not a problem. It was the dismissive attitude toward what people were telling you they experience that was the problem. 

And again, people don't go around telling people they have it. 

 

 

No we don't, because we don't have to. Like you wrote earlier, when you're walking around the grocery store crying, you really have no need to TELL people anything. (I related way too much to that comment).

I don't know if SAD works on a short-term basis, but I had a few weeks where I cried every day, and even emailed my doctor about it because I'm already on pretty high doses of antidepressants. But then the last couple of weeks, no crying. It's been much colder the last couple of weeks, but sunny most of the time, while it was gloomy the previous three weeks. That's honestly the only difference I can think of, the amount of sun in the sky.  

 

 

 

[dirty ethel rackham]

On 11/2/2019 at 8:47 AM, Ktgrok said:

When researching SAD I had to shake my head at the sloppy science in one article that said that maybe the reason some people don't get SAD is they have a better attitude about winter. They figured this out by asking people how they feel about winter - if they think it is fun, or gloomy, or whatever and then correlating that with people with SAD. People with SAD had a worse attitude about winter. Which, they concluded, probably caused the SAD and they should just have a better attitude and it will fix it.

At no point did they consider that having SAD might be WHY they have a poor attitude about winter. 🙄

The thing is ... I love winter.  Even the cold weather.  I've strived for most of my life to live by the motto "There's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing."  (Thank you Great Grandpa Sam, who emigrated from Norway as a teen.) But, my husband , the engineer who rarely notices things about people, noticed a significant change in my energy levels, ability to concentrate, and get $#!^ done around the  first week of November.  That is usually about 3 weeks before the actually mood disorder strikes.  December is really difficult, even when I had a walking partner every day and was able to get outside every day.  But, isolation tends to make things worse.  People spend a lot more time and energy complaining about the weather.  I've put myself out there trying to be less isolated, but all these weather whiners just don't feel I am worth leaving the house for (they seem to find the energy for other people, go figure.)   

Anyway, for me, this is a year of change ... I am really working on me!  Back in school.  Working on not dwelling on the losses so much and trying to be content with the superficial connections in my life since I am much more intellectually engaged by being back in school.  Light box every day.  Working out 3-4 times a week.  Planning better meals.  We will see how I survive finals in mid-December ... I hope the bottom doesn't drop out then like it usually does.

[JennyD]

I am reading this thread with interest.  I don't have SAD but over the last few years I have become increasingly convinced that my middle son is unusually sensitive to the amount of sunlight he gets.  I've considered buying a light box but I myself have a history of melanoma and when I asked a dermatologist about it he was not at all keen on the idea.  Off to read the link upthread ....

[klmama]

Don't forget about vitamin D!  It can make a huge difference in mood for those who are deficient.  

[madteaparty]

Are these lights ones that emit white, neon industrial type light? Because I had that in my office and hated it. Actually kept the overhead lights off and worked off the flow of the computer screen and a table lamp. I think I need a giant salt-like lamp.

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, klmama said:

Don't forget about vitamin D!  It can make a huge difference in mood for those who are deficient.  

Definitely - my husband has low D and it effects his mood hugely. Unfortunately for me even with great D levels in the winter I still get SAD.

3 hours ago, madteaparty said:

Are these lights ones that emit white, neon industrial type light? Because I had that in my office and hated it. Actually kept the overhead lights off and worked off the flow of the computer screen and a table lamp. I think I need a giant salt-like lamp.

I don't think so - these are not an overhead type light. And you only use them for about 20 minutes a day.

[klmama]

Read something while you use it, so your mind is occupied on something else. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

On 11/14/2019 at 7:53 PM, myblessings4 said:

Our light came today!  Man, that thing is bright!  Any tips for getting used to it?  

In the beginning, I have it off to the side so I have it in my peripheral vision.  And I started with only 5 minutes a day.  I gradually moved it to be directly in front of me.  And I usually use it while eating breakfast.  So, I am sitting there anyway.