anyone read/used "transforming the difficult child" by

[gardenmom5]

by Howard Glasser and Jennifer Easely?

apparently, one of them was a self-described "difficult child".   re: high intensity, high energy, etc. - and stated conventional parenting techniques simply don't work.

1dd has been strongly urging me to read it, and apply it's ideas with dudeling.  some of them definitely seem to fit.  

experiences?

 

[DawnM]

N/M, I had the wrong program in my mind.  

Edited October 22, 2019 by DawnM

[Ottakee]

I don't know if I have read that particular book, but I do agree that some kids need some creative parenting.

[Pen]

No familiarity. Thanks for mentioning it.  Reading its blurbs, it seems to fit an approach I was coming towards from other authors / youTubes etc.

 

[Pen]

I tried getting kindle sample—not much showed up, but looks like it has a preface by Peter Breggin.  

It is Peter Breggin who is one of two main people I wS thinking of as I mentioned other books, YouTubes etc that I’m finding helpful.  

So that he wrote preface is very promising to me!  Maybe it would have a collected approach instead of seeking bits to put together myself from here and there. 

I couldn’t find the book itself on Hoopla or similar to borrow.  I’ll see if my library has hard copy, and if not may buy the paperback.  

[prairiewindmomma]

I read it a few years ago. Glasser has the "nurtured heart" approach. The idea is to get out of a behavior loop that is focused on negative behaviors and to instead focus on rewarding positive behaviors. One of Glasser's big points is to praise when things are going well (and if you know that a negative behavior is likely to pop up soon--to stop and pause and praise BEFORE the negative thing is likely to happen).  Once you have re-bonded on positive things, then you address the discipline side of things by keeping it short, simple, and supposedly drama free. 

I think it's worth reading. I think it's another good tool in a parenting tool box.  Most complex kids need multiple tools.  I found that pairing this approach with Greene's Explosive Child approach helpful. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Lots of people have presented on his ideas. Here are a few videos:

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I should explain on why I think Glasser should be paired with Greene.  Glasser helps a kid reframe their identity so that they have a positive internal view of themselves. Greene views kids in a positive light---that they are doing the best that they can, and when things break down, it's because they are lacking skills.  Both approaches help externalize behaviors (separate them from self-image) and allow you to work on those behaviors in a positive way.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I should explain on why I think Glasser should be paired with Greene.  Glasser helps a kid reframe their identity so that they have a positive internal view of themselves. Greene views kids in a positive light---that they are doing the best that they can, and when things break down, it's because they are lacking skills.  Both approaches help externalize behaviors (separate them from self-image) and allow you to work on those behaviors in a positive way.

So - Greene is saying his techniques/theories apply equally to the child who withdraws?   which is what I have.  no "explosions" - just shutting down.

[prairiewindmomma]

I have two that shut down. I think that while a lot of people focus on the “explosive” part of his material, kids who shut down are kids who implode in rather than out. I have used his “lagging skills” ideas with good success. It does have to be modified, though, particularly if all language also shuts down with the shut down. I use lagging skills as an approach to discover if there is something more to be learned about the shutdown trigger....and also for them to problem solve things that they can do rather than shut down.

From this process I learned that I talk too much in encouraging them to keep working through a challenging situation rather than just letting them pause, regroup, and rejoin. I was making it worse when I was trying to be helpful. I thought they were wrong, but we used their suggested approach and the evidence shows that the shut downs became shorter.

So, yeah, add it to the tool box.....

[Pen]

32 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

So - Greene is saying his techniques/theories apply equally to the child who withdraws?   which is what I have.  no "explosions" - just shutting down.

 

Grrene’s approach can definitely apply to withdrawal.  

 

[Pen]

Raising Human Beings: Creating a Collaborative Partnership with Your Child https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476723761/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_7U3RDb199KDGB

[Robin M]

Great addition to our toolbox for working through issues with our kiddo.  We took nurtured heart classes based on the book and it gave us good skills and methods in dealing with behavior.  By paying less attention to the negative behaviors and more to the positive, along with clear rules and actively resetting definitely works.  Both my husband and I also utilize it to reset when we're both out of sorts and paying more attention to the negative as well.   Well worth reading and recommend getting the workbook too! 

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, Robin M said:

Great addition to our toolbox for working through issues with our kiddo.  We took nurtured heart classes based on the book and it gave us good skills and methods in dealing with behavior.  By paying less attention to the negative behaviors and more to the positive, along with clear rules and actively resetting definitely works.  Both my husband and I also utilize it to reset when we're both out of sorts and paying more attention to the negative as well.   Well worth reading and recommend getting the workbook too! 

he has two workbooks.

one is "transforming the difficult child", (2008)  the other is "transforming the intense child"   (2017). . . . don't suppose you know about the differences?

eta: links, and publish dates.   it maybe the dates . . . . 

Edited October 22, 2019 by gardenmom5

[Pen]

I was looking at that too...   seems like they are changing word “difficult” to “intense” to be more positive.  

I read enough to decide it will be helpful (particularly with the Breggin intro when I’d been looking for a Breggin type approach to issues) and ordered to most recent book, workbook, and also a book intended more for self healing, I think. Igniting Greatness - Remembering Who We Really Are Through the Nurtured Heart Approach https://www.amazon.com/dp/0982671466/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_9c5RDbAN1TNFS. Which looked helpful also to see the approach applied to older people as well as young children.

 

[Robin M]

18 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

he has two workbooks.

one is "transforming the difficult child", (2008)  the other is "transforming the intense child"   (2017). . . . don't suppose you know about the differences?

eta: links, and publish dates.   it maybe the dates . . . . 

We did the difficult child workbook. The website doesn't provide much detail on either workbook nor do they provide any examples or table of contents.  I can't find the TOC anywhere on line.  I suppose Difficult Child goes more into the structure of the program from what they say in the description.  You might be able to email and ask what the difference is. 

[gardenmom5]

ordered the "intense child" workbook (updated version 2017), and the Explosive child.

I'm still in process of reading the "difficult child" .. . . . 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

ordered the "intense child" workbook (updated version 2017), and the Explosive child.

I'm still in process of reading the "difficult child" .. . . . 

 

Could we discuss after finishing reading and starting implementation?

 

[gardenmom5]

I don't want to seem like I'm whining - but this is SO validating!!!

" . . . These are people who deeply care and who have gone to great lengths to apply the methods at their disposal.  Unfortunately, they are also frequently condemned because schools, neighbors, * and extended families often attribute the continuing behavior problems to inadequate parenting."  (pg44).

 

*(had to add the oxford comma).

 

[Pen]

19 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I should explain on why I think Glasser should be paired with Greene.  Glasser helps a kid reframe their identity so that they have a positive internal view of themselves. Greene views kids in a positive light---that they are doing the best that they can, and when things break down, it's because they are lacking skills.  Both approaches help externalize behaviors (separate them from self-image) and allow you to work on those behaviors in a positive way.

 

18 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

So - Greene is saying his techniques/theories apply equally to the child who withdraws?   which is what I have.  no "explosions" - just shutting down.

 

If you are using both, what does that end up looking like for a particular situation?

Say a kid isn’t doing _____ .  (Not Going to school at all, doing work in one or more classes, withdrawing to bedroom...    how about using turn signal before turns on country roads with no one around...) 

Greene we’d say something like, “Hey, I noticed you seem to be having hard time with ______, I’m wondering what’s up with that.” And try to narrow in on the lagging skills that are needed.

Glasser, it seems, we’d ignore the area not being done and emphasize positives instead.  

I feel like I understand how to use the Greene approach, but not yet how to utilize the Glasser approach... 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

If you are using both, what does that end up looking like for a particular situation?

Say a kid isn’t doing _____ .  (Not Going to school at all, doing work in one or more classes, withdrawing to bedroom...    how about using turn signal before turns on country roads with no one around...) 

Greene we’d say something like, “Hey, I noticed you seem to be having hard time with ______, I’m wondering what’s up with that.” And try to narrow in on the lagging skills that are needed.

Glasser, it seems, we’d ignore the area not being done and emphasize positives instead.  

I feel like I understand how to use the Greene approach, but not yet how to utilize the Glasser approach... 

 

 

I currently have a kid not going to school at all.  (joy, I get to have a truancy meeting with the school . . .  at least he has an IEP, and I've been in regular, frequent, contact with his case worker and social worker at the school.).   I tried to compromise with him that he'd just go to biology (he hates biology. hello? lab science kid.)

I've started doing sotw and writing with skill with him, and he's doing math on khan academy.  while it's only three classes - they're core classes.  even then, it was grudging.  yesterday - I started giving him "high energy rewards" just for himself.  (he craves high energy - so it had to be very high energy.).  he worked independently and more easily than he has in a long time.  that was one day.  

 

I've ordered the greene book, but it isn't here yet.  I'll be frank - the suggestion you gave from greene's method, would NOT work with this kid in a zillion years.  it would completely trigger him and he'd throw up every single defense he has.  those types of questions make him shut down and withdraw.  he considers answering them an invasion of his privacy, and immediately shuts down.

glasser posits that these "high energy" kids do NOT respond to any form of conventional guidance/parenting/etc.  dudeling certainly does not.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

If you are using both, what does that end up looking like for a particular situation?

Say a kid isn’t doing _____ .  (Not Going to school at all, doing work in one or more classes, withdrawing to bedroom...    how about using turn signal before turns on country roads with no one around...) 

Greene we’d say something like, “Hey, I noticed you seem to be having hard time with ______, I’m wondering what’s up with that.” And try to narrow in on the lagging skills that are needed.

Glasser, it seems, we’d ignore the area not being done and emphasize positives instead.  

I feel like I understand how to use the Greene approach, but not yet how to utilize the Glasser approach... 

 

 

I think it comes down to the nuance of the situation for me.....more of an either/or, not a pairing of both techniques in every situation. For me, the takeaways from both were to keep the relationships positive while dealing with trying to get behavior compliance. And I think that’s a key point—-trying to get a kid to comply to my requirement is not necessarily on the list of priorities for my kid in a given situation. We often fail to acknowledge that. Conversely, there are a lot of situations where compliance consequences are above my pay grade (ie state law requires that....) so setting up a framework of discussion for that.

My kids are NOT high energy kids, so YMMV. I don’t think there are any “fits all kids/situations” solutions out there. 

 

[Lecka]

Does he ever use the turn signal?  You can compliment the times it is used.  
 

It’s not a 100% solution but it is a great, wonderful strategy.  
 

If he never ever uses the turn signal, you could go out with one goal, to use the turn signal, ignore anything else not done well, but be positive about using the turn signal when it happens and is the main goal.

I don’t think that is maybe just right for using a turn signal — but in general — those are ways to implement 🙂

Praise the behavior when it happens naturally, and try to create a situation where the behavior will be performed so you can praise it then 🙂  That is the main idea 🙂  

 

[gardenmom5]

27 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Does he ever use the turn signal?  You can compliment the times it is used.  
 

It’s not a 100% solution but it is a great, wonderful strategy.  
 

If he never ever uses the turn signal, you could go out with one goal, to use the turn signal, ignore anything else not done well, but be positive about using the turn signal when it happens and is the main goal.

I don’t think that is maybe just right for using a turn signal — but in general — those are ways to implement 🙂

Praise the behavior when it happens naturally, and try to create a situation where the behavior will be performed so you can praise it then 🙂  That is the main idea 🙂  

 

what is the "turn signal"?

one of the things difficult child teaches is: notice the child when they're not misbehaving.   it's NOTICING them that is the most important.  this isn't about praising them for doing the right thing.  It's noticing them as a person who matters to you. to state what they're doing back to them *in the moment* so they know you're noticing them.  he also stresses making those "noticing the child" comments - value neutral.    these are things of which part of me was aware, but just didn't know how to apply it to this kid.   

high energy isn't just "energy" - it can also be "overly sensitive", or some way "intense".

incidentally - Rutgers and ( don't remember) Universities are doing research in his techniques.

from what I'm now reading/hearing about greene - I've been using similar techniques for years, to no avail, and they just tick him off.

 

[PeterPan]

22 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

So - Greene is saying his techniques/theories apply equally to the child who withdraws?   which is what I have.  no "explosions" - just shutting down.

So just for your trivia, someone is coming to our area to do training in CPS=Collaborative Problem Solving, which is apparently what Greene's stuff morphed into. I don't know if it's worth anything, just pondering going. Turns out you can do the training online http://www.thinkkids.org/train/trainings/ Also the author of the Behavior Code, Minahan, is coming to our area. Jessica Minahan › homeHome - Jessica Minahan, M.Ed, BCBA

Of course all that makes it sound like there's something you could do to make it better, and sometimes there's not. Sometimes it's intrinsic to the kid. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I think Lecka is talking about Pen’s son, who is learning to drive. 

[Lecka]

Yes — just using the turn signal.  
 

I have been doing it lately with my 14-year-old to try to get him to wear his seatbelt without me or his Dad telling him every time.  He needs to do it when he is not with us and we aren’t there to tell him to do it.  
 

Which — is a little thing, it’s not on the same level of some other things.

But still — reducing conflict is good and it can reduce conflict.  

[melbotoast]

21 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

he has two workbooks.

one is "transforming the difficult child", (2008)  the other is "transforming the intense child"   (2017). . . . don't suppose you know about the differences?

 

 

I read the older version and thought it was helpful. I believe the updated version no longer has the point system which some people found hard to implement. 

 

[Pen]

How old is Dudeling? (Could be in signature, but I’m on a cellphone). 

Yeah, turn signal meant car turn signal.  

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

How old is Dudeling? (Could be in signature, but I’m on a cellphone). 

Yeah, turn signal meant car turn signal.  

 

I've removed my sig.  He's 14, he'll be 15 in January.

since we were talking about child development techniques - I thought there might have been another meaning than with driving a car.

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I've removed my sig.  He's 14, he'll be 15 in January.

since we were talking about child development techniques - I thought there might have been another meaning than with driving a car.

 

After you asked that,  I was thinking it might be a good term to use for something, though I haven’t decided what.  Similar to how “put on the brakes” can be used regarding situations with no actual mechanical brakes.  

Maybe things are about to get into a bad interaction and it would be good to “put on a turn signal”? 

[BeachGal]

Motivational interviewing (MI) techniques helped our headstrong kids become more cooperative and responsible in their lives. Prior to using MI, my husband and I would attempt to dictate or cajole them to do things, which didn’t work well and often brought tremendous pushback showing us that we were not going to make them do anything. It’s a little tricky to learn but helped us a lot. Just throwing it out there as another potential tool.