Dyslexic child and best math programs for middle/high school

[baxterclan7]

Yes, 🙂 I know dyslexia isn’t a math problem per se, but the learning challenges that cause dyslexia affect math learning too! My 12 year old (7th grade) dyslexic daughter struggles with new concepts, and takes lots of repetition to remember how to do new things in math. This has slowed our progress down greatly. She is currently about halfway through Saxon 6/5 and it has worked well for her because it gives lots of practice. However, we’ve definitely tweaked the way we use it, because it takes SO MUCH TIME- especially for her. She is my fifth child, and watching two of my older children hit a wall once they hit Saxon pre-algebra or algebra is making me think I will need to find a different program for her. The amount of work was overwhelming for these two who may have been slow processors/ ADD, but were not dyslexic (or at least not severely) on top of it. The problem is, both of those children decided to go to public school for high school, where they thrived in math, but I have no idea what to do with this child at home for a curriculum that won’t take her hours and hours to complete each day. Both of my boys had math teachers who assigned much less homework than Saxon ever does, yet they both did well. She will have different challenges than they did, but I’m hoping some of you have some experience/advice for me on this. We may be able to stick it out through pre-algebra in Saxon if that’s what is necessary to complete that level of math without leaving gaps before we jump ship, but I really think Saxon algebra will be too much. But I’m open to suggestions with Saxon as well. Thanks!

[Storygirl]

I'm bumping this for you. We are not homeschooling any more, so I will leave it to others to suggest curricula.

Has she had evaluations? Dyslexia can affect math, but it's also possible to have a math disability in addition to dyslexia. A good psychologist should give a list of recommendations for how to modify material and provide accommodations. That could not only help you, but also provide a paper trail for the ACT/SAT, if she plans to apply to college.

The struggle to learn new concepts could be working memory issues, or it could be dyscalculia. Sometimes if you do things to decrease the load on the working memory, it frees the brain to think about the concepts.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

The Special Needs board gets less traffic than the main Learning Challenges board, so if you don't get many responses, you may consider reposting your question on LC.

[baxterclan7]

Thank you! No formal evaluation yet because of cost. We went straight to remediation with an at home program because symptoms were so obvious. She definitely has weak working memory, but it is improving. I don’t think she has dyscalculia based on symptoms, but not sure. She’s pretty good at getting concepts, she just can’t keep it all in her head, so it takes a lot of repetition.  We will apply for evaluation through the school system soon. It’s not as thorough,  but it’s free. 

[PeterPan]

On October 22, 2019 at 2:19 PM, baxterclan7 said:

she just can’t keep it all in her head

So what you're describing is working memory. With my dd we would do the math together on a small whiteboard (16X20, you can buy them at Target/Walmart for $10) and I would tell her to use me as her mental RAM, scratch memory. Also, my dd's language would drop when stressed, so we would have pictures of all the symbols or math words to allow her to point. She was also allowed to use a calculator. If the point is not the actual math facts, at this point allow her to use a calculator to lower the brain drain.

You can also work on working memory directly if you want. I would suggest doing it with Heathermomster's metronome exercises, weaving in digit spans as she's able to do the tasks. 

The other thing to consider is meds for the ADHD. It sounds like she has low processing speed, and as she's a girl it's easy to miss the ADHD. The meds can improve processing speed (or at least my dd says they do, I'm not sure I've seen data) and help her function better.

As far as the math instruction itself, Ronit Bird has terrific intervention materials. You'd be looking at                                             Overcoming Difficulties with Number: Supporting Dyscalculia and Students who Struggle with Maths                                     

[PeterPan]

On October 22, 2019 at 2:19 PM, baxterclan7 said:

We will apply for evaluation through the school system soon. It’s not as thorough,  but it’s free.

This is not correct to say the school evals will not be thorough. They have the resources and can be compelled to eval as thoroughly as you push for. You need to go in knowing exactly what you need, presenting evidence for each area of disability and why they have to test it, and push for the correct tests. They will not find anything more than they have to, because it costs them money and man hours to test. But if you present the evidence, you can get testing as thorough as any $$$$$$$ neuropsych. Maybe not quite as thorough, but plenty thorough. Maybe more thorough considering some neuropsychs are obnoxious and blow people off.

So anyways, here's a post to get you started https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/?s=dyslexia+testing  The ps is not going to do every bit of language testing that could be done, but you should definitely be able to get them to do the CTOPP, a writing assessment of some kind, achievement and full IQ (push the processing speed question to compel them to do the IQ, say her low processing speed is affecting academics, which it clearly is), an OT eval if she has pain with writing or sensory symptoms, and narrative language testing. If she has no narrative language issues, fine don't bother. But if you have evidence that she has issues getting out her thoughts, you can push for this. If they don't own the testing, they can do it dynamically or buy a test like the Test of Narrative Language. There's also the TILLS that hits a bunch of literacy areas (phonological processing, narrative language, etc.) in one test. They won't own it, haha, but I'm saying you're justified to push for something for narrative language.

Also think hard about the ADHD and get them to run tools for that. They should have printed Executive Function Screening forms and a computerized tap tap attention test. Do NOT go in and say you don't think she has ADHD. Let them test for it. Girl ADHD doesn't look like boys and it's so commonly co-morbid with dyslexia (70%) that it's highly probable she has it. You WANT her paper trail to say it if it's there, because you WANT the documentation that gets her accommodations. This is not the time to play nice or hold back or be wishful or be scared. You want everything in there.

Does this dc have issues with background noise or understanding in noisy places or anything odd related to sound? You want screenings for that. You can compel them to pay for this. Some universities will do the testing very inexpensively. Like around here it used to be $35 at the big state university for audiology testing and now it's free. 

Here's the info on narrative language so you can learn more, see where she is, and push for testing. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology

The REASON you want to be very clear, presenting evidence for every area where you suspect a disability and compelling them to test every area is because them failing to do it completely and thoroughly, when you had the evidence, allows you to file for IEE=independent 3rd party evals THAT THEY PAY FOR. That's the law. Now it's kinda going nuclear, but it's the law. So if you have more time than money, that is how you get thorough evals. You go in giving all the evidence, fighting upfront for them to do them correctly. And if they don't or if the results are really off, you dispute and get them to pay for private.

Now the other thing I'll push you on is to make your WRITTEN REQUEST NOW. I bolded the now because of the date. You're at the end of October, and the IEP timeline is 120 days from the date you submit the written request. Now she's not enrolled, so they may not have to write an IEP. However by federal law they have to eval and then it falls to state laws as to whether they write the IEP/504 or not. But the way this cycles in the ps, they observe for a grading period, do RTI (response to intervention) for a grading period, and then right after Christmas the teachers make their written referrals for evals. So anyone (parents, teachers, etc.) had the legal right at any time to request evals, but the school, in the next month or two, is about to get FLOODED. That means from March-May these teams are SLAMMED. 

If you make your written request NOW, odds are they will get your dd done completely before Christmas. If you wait, she will get lost in a swamp, the psych will be going on 3 hours sleep, meetings are harder to schedule, and it will just be rougher. If you want them to spend time with you, file NOW. And literally, all that means is you write a letter (typed is fine, hand written is fine) on a sheet of paper, sign, date, photocopy for your records, and it says "I suspect a learning disability in reading, math, etc. and request evals for my beloved dd." Don't make it more complicated and don't wait. You write that letter, hand it to the secretary at the front desk and say that you homeschool and are requesting evals. THAT starts the legal timeline. They have to meet with you within 30 days and the ball is rolling. 

You've got this. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

I agree with Peter Pan and just want to add that some school districts are easier to work with than others. You may ask for testing on some issue and be told that they don't see enough evidence that the test is needed, or that the tests they will do are sufficient, and they don't have to run a certain test, just because a parent asks for it.

I bring this up, because it has happened to us. We have had to have some private evaluations to supplement what the schools have done. We have not wanted to go the route of rejecting the school's report and insisting on IEE, so we have paid for outside testing ourselves (sometimes covered by insurance). In our case, for example, the school has not conducted narrative language testing or autism testing, and DS's needs for OT and speech therapy go beyond what the school needs to address. By law, the school only has to test if the issue is having an impact in the classroom, and they can determine that even if there is a problem, it is not significant enough for them to be required to address it. So they may not agree to all of the testing that you might ask for. But still, ask! You can draw your own line about whether you are willing to push for them to do more.

And, yes, it takes time for the school process, so factor that in to your planning. And go to the meeting thoroughly prepared. I write everything down ahead of time in my own report. I detailed the current problems, history with those issues, and how I accommodated for them when homeschooling. We already had some private evaluations at the time of the first IEPs, so I gave them copies of those. Anything that you can do to document and prepare is a good idea.

After you get the school report, you may find that it takes some time for you to digest it. Schools are not required to diagnose dyslexia, but they will diagnose Specific Learning Disability in Reading. The standard IQ testing will give you sub scores for processing speed, working memory, and other categories. Those scores can tell you a lot, but the school may not be the best at explaining how to read them or what their significance is. That is where private evaluations might be better, and where you may have to self-educate to get a fuller picture of what is going on, if you only have school testing done.

[Storygirl]

https://www.dynaread.com/dyslexia-and-math-struggles-how-do-they-relate

The above article is useful.

https://www.time4learning.com/homeschooling/special-needs/dyslexia/teaching-math.html

I am not promoting the above product, as I have never used it. But the article includes some good information and tips.

You can find more things online with your own search, of course. These are things that popped up for me.

DD14 has both dyslexia and trouble with math. But her math issues are directly related to her dyslexia. She understands concepts but has trouble memorizing math facts, using analog clocks, and doing calculations without a calculator. She will sometimes add instead of multiply, etc, which may be from misreading some of the symbols (or it could be the stress on the working memory, although her WM is not too low).

When those issues get in the way, it can slow her down on learning concepts, because her brain is occupied with the calculations. However, she actually learns math concepts quickly and well, with accommodations, and her math teachers consider her good at math. She still tests lower when she is not allowed to use a calculator on standardized testing.

This is different from my son, who does not have dyslexia but does have other LDs, including dyscalculia. He can calculate fine. But he has trouble learning concepts and remembering them. He will forget, without constant practice. He has trouble with word problems. He has trouble when math problems appear in a different form than he is used to, even if he can do the problem. He has trouble with multi-step directions. He has trouble using concepts he has already learned, when presented with the next level of harder material that needs a foundation in the lower level concepts (for example, he has been working on foundational pre-algebra concepts for about five years now -- 5th through 9th grades -- and we are expecting him to still have a lot of difficulty with algebra next year).

I'm sharing this, because I have two kids whose math disabilities look very different from each other. One is related to dyslexia, and the other is not. Just some food for thought for you, as you think about whether there could be a math disability along with the dyslexia for your daughter.

Whenever you get testing from the school, absolutely be sure to tell them you suspect a math disability, as well as a reading disability, to make sure they test both areas.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

my son, who does not have dyslexia but does have other LDs, including dyscalculia. He can calculate fine. But he has trouble learning concepts and remembering them. He will forget, without constant practice. He has trouble with word problems. He has trouble when math problems appear in a different form than he is used to, even if he can do the problem. He has trouble with multi-step directions. He has trouble using concepts he has already learned, when presented with the next level of harder material that needs a foundation in the lower level concepts

So some of what the DSM is doing is so vague for me. Are they using SLD Math as an umbrella and dyscalculia falls under it, much like SLD Reading can encompass *more* than dyslexia? 

Usually dyscalculia is meant to refer to a disability of number sense. It's a pretty tight definition. Here Ronit Bird explains it. http://www.ronitbird.com/dyscalculia/  

So to me a lot of what you're describing is autism (difficulties with generalizing, word problems, changing contexts), and it's the norm to call it SLD Math to make goals. To me ds has those issues *and* the number sense difficulties. I don't know that I've had a professional bother with the term dyscalculia with him, come to think of it. They just put SLD Math. 

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

She understands concepts but has trouble memorizing math facts

With my dd it was the ADHD, the wide mini-columns, poor visual memory, I don't know. All those were going on. You have to have the mental RAM for it to write to the brain and get into permanent memory, and hers was just very taxed by the time she dealt with the low processing speed. I think the ADHD meds may have helped, because her math scores on the ACT went up *dramatically* with meds. She definitely felt more functional on them for math.

Edited October 24, 2019 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

It was the neuropsych who diagnosed dyscalculia when DS was 10. The school evaluation at age 11 gave him SLD math, and they didn't use the term dyscalculia. Right now his IEP category is OH-I instead of SLD, so they don't have to separate out which areas he has learning disabilities in and name them any more in his IEP, though he does have goals for math and reading, etc.

Every time he is tested, people name things differently, so who knows? His original dyscalculia diagnosis was under DSM-IV.

Now, the DSM-5 has several criteria:

• Number sense
• Memorization of arithmetic facts
• Accurate or fluent calculation
• Accurate math reasoning

I pasted that list in from this article   https://dyslexiaida.org/dsm-5-changes-in-diagnostic-criteria-for-specific-learning-disabilities-sld1-what-are-the-implications/

I found this article to be interesting, as well.

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/specific-learning-disorder/

So DD14's math issues are in the areas of calculation and memorization of facts (I would consider those related, but the DSM separates them). DS15's math disability is in reasoning.

DD14's neuropsych did not give her the SLD math designation, but she does now have SLD -- math as her IEP category. So the school and the NP saw it differently, in her case. Our schools have never cited the DSM-5 in their reports. They just categorize, based on their testing scores.

I think that autism affects DS's math ability, for sure. But there are plenty of people with autism who are great at math. So whether to separate it out as a disability of it's own is probably up to the evaluator.

I am not an expert on any of this. 😂 It can be confusing, certainly.

I suppose it's possible that if DD14 had been evaluated by a different psych, she might have gotten the dyscalculia label, but the NP we used considered the calculation issues related to the dyslexia instead of a separate disability.

Neither of my kids with math LD has had significant trouble with number sense. I think it's probably there, underneath, for DD14, because she had trouble with reading dice when she was little and had more trouble learning to count, if I remember accurately (it was a long time ago, now). She may still count the dots on the dice; I don't know and should ask her. I think you could make a case that kids who have trouble with calculation probably often have trouble with number sense. But that's just an opinion off the top of my head.

This whole post is probably just muddying the waters for the OP. Sorry if I'm confusing you!

 

[Storygirl]

https://aesa.group/dyscalculia-sld-in-math/

Lots of info in here, if anyone wants to wade in. (I don't know that organization and just found it by googling just now, but it looks interesting). I can't tell who wrote that article, whether a parent sharing what they've learned, or if it is a psychologist. It's a parent-led organization.

But there are a lot of tips in there about accommodations, etc.

[Storygirl]

https://www.additudemag.com/dyscalculia-symptoms-diagnosis-children/

Good stuff here. I don't have a copy of the DSM-5, but this article quotes it. As far as I can tell, the term "dyscalculia" is not in the DSM-5. Only Specific Learning Disorder with impairment in mathematics.

[Storygirl]

@baxterclan7

You might look at CLE. It worked well for my kids, when we were homeschooling, and I used it through the prealgebra level with DD17 (not my dyslexic daughter, but DD17 had some struggles with math). CLE introduces a small amount of new material each day and then has a mixed review section. CLE goes through algebra, and they are working to develop higher level courses (the ones they have now for 10-12 grade are old editions that are not highly thought of).

There are some things to consider that could be negatives for your situation.

1) For some people, there is not enough initial practice of the new lesson, and they supplement with things like Khan Academy or another program. This can be dealt with, but it requires the parent-teacher to bring something extra to the table, instead of relying on CLE to teach everything.

2) CLE extends prealgebra over two years -- levels 700 and 800. Some people don't like that, because they want to move forward faster.  For DD17, it was helpful to have the extra time and thorough approach. There may be things you could skip over or take less time on, if you are willing to go through and make those decisions and cross things out.

3) Definitely take the placement test. It's not uncommon for students to test lower than expected. There are ways to start at a lower level and move more quickly through the program, to make up for some lost time. But a lower placement plus two years of prealgebra could add up to CLE needing too much time to catch up. You'd have to do the placement test and see.

4) It's tempting to expect CLE (or any program) to be sufficient. For students with learning issues, parents will have to watch for holes in understanding and identify the things that may need additional teaching. I, myself, was not great at modifying math like that for my kids, but it wasn't a fault of CLE. It's just something homeschooling parents should be aware of generally.

I hope you find some suggestions that are helpful in your threads.

[baxterclan7]

Wow, thank you Peter Pan and Story Girl! Lots of good and helpful info in here that I’m excited to look into.  Many thanks!