What to do about this chemistry class?

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Dd is taking chemistry at a different co op from the one she usually attends. The teacher is brand new and her solution to the difficulty of not having more time with the kids is that all tests be open book which I will not do. 
 

the class is on a Friday and the teacher doesn’t do much teaching. They mostly do that week’s experiments. 
 

My dd is really having trouble  - she takes Saturday’s off of schoolwork and then sundays and Monday she’s doing tons of work for the classes she has Tuesday through Thursdays - often times it’s already Wednesday before she even Really gets down to business with chemistry and by then of course it’s not very good, so Friday she spend the entire day Doing it and then going to the class. I’ve spent time reading it with her and I have to say without a class and teacher it’s challenging - just a lot of info and reading and even some math. 
 

I would like to encourage her to get the majority of her chemistry done Sunday and Monday. But I’m not sure that time management is the only issue. I’ve thought of having her to PAC integrated physics and chemistry instead but also she won’t have much hand holding in college so I’m not sure she should drop the chemistry. 
 

 

[Farrar]

My first thought is that when I'm teaching and make a test open book, I design the test to be open book. In other words, the questions are harder and require a level of synthesis that I would not require on a closed book test. So I'd be hesitant to circumvent the teacher on this. There's nothing inherently wrong with an open book test, especially if it's designed that way. Is it possible that that's part of what's making this take longer? She could be pulling an inappropriate load. In general, there's a way that many people seem to want to make things harder for the sake of making them harder. I haven't seen these tests, so maybe it's appropriate that they be closed book. But maybe you're just making it harder on her for the sake of making it harder.

Beyond that, it sounds like the primary problem is time management, so I'm not sure that changing her class would help. It sounds like she's doing every single class all at once at the last minute (or, not quite, but she puts it off until she doesn't have time to work on anything else). It's inefficient. She needs to redo her schedule and focus on spreading out the work over the course of the week and getting the "hard" parts done earlier in her rotation for a class.

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Good thoughts. I’ll have to look at the tests and talk to the teacher. One of the frustrating parts is that the teacher doesn’t answer any of my emails. And sometimes doesn’t answer my daughter’s either. So I really have no way to gain info. I’m hesitant to try to go before or after class because of the schedule and setup at the co-op. It would be very obvious and therefore awkward for my dd and I’m sure it would be inconvenient to the teacher but she hasn’t emailed me back all year. 
 

one of the teachers she has this year does the extremely hard open book test things but it makes sense since a large part of their grade isn’t even based on tests - instead it’s based on Key Assignments which are difficult and time consuming. And the tests are 60% essay questions which require a lot of synthesis and thought. So that definitely makes sense to me.

But for chemistry you’re just learning the same concepts regardless of how it’s presented so I don’t know if a teacher could make it much harder than it normally is. Maybe I’ll compare her tests with Apologia’s original. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

I think if the teacher says open book tests, then you should allow open book tests.  FWIW, my dd is in college this year (freshman), and two of her classes have open book tests.  

[Frances]

I think it’s completely possible to make a very wide range of tests in terms of difficulty for a chemistry class or any other STEM class. It’s not unusual for college science classes, even upper level ones, to have very low test score averages. And not because the students aren’t prepared, but because the prof puts on some very challenging problems, in addition to some more basic ones. And unless she has unlimited time for the tests, you still have to know the material for an open book test or you will not be able to finish and do well.

Have you tried looking for some basic chemistry videos online that might help explain some of the concepts she is learning? I do think it would be better if she spread the work out throughout the week. Awhile back I remember someone posting a very good study plan for science classes. Maybe you can work to develop one with her that divides up the work into manageable chunks throughout the week.

 

[MamaSprout]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Beyond that, it sounds like the primary problem is time management, so I'm not sure that changing her class would help. It sounds like she's doing every single class all at once at the last minute (or, not quite, but she puts it off until she doesn't have time to work on anything else). It's inefficient. She needs to redo her schedule and focus on spreading out the work over the course of the week and getting the "hard" parts done earlier in her rotation for a class.

We just came out of a very hard learning curve this fall that was exactly this. I insisted dd use a planner and we sat down on Friday mornings and wrote out the next week together. This made a lot of sense because she has some Thursday-Thursday classes. She fought me at first, and REALLY didn't want to decide ahead of time what to do each day, but it has made life so much easier. We got this planner, but it looks like it's currently out of stock.

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it turns Out the teacher is not teaching at all I reread the syllabus and realized she is only doing a 10 minute review and labs it is up to the parent to teach the student review with the student and discuss with the students

[Miss Tick]

3 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

it turns Out the teacher is not teaching at all I reread the syllabus and realized she is only doing a 10 minute review and labs it is up to the parent to teach the student review with the student and discuss with the students

Whoops! Do you have time for that? At least that explains some of the difficulty your dd is having...

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Yeah, I feel like an idiot because it is there but just way down low and not really in any way spelled out. But the class should have been titled “Review and Labs” 
 

The teacher is soooo nice, she asked if it would help if she added a five minute preview each week and said my dd is one of her favorite students! 😞. But the amount of reading in this text seems overwhelming to me. I know we expect a lot of our homeschooled students as far as self teaching but I personally would have cried every day and I was a great student with a good memory and easy ability to memorize...never would I have wanted to read over 25 pages per week and teach myself chemistry every week! My dd is more clever and better at math but not so good at reading and memorizing text especially Science. 

...I can’t really help her, when I try it takes me a long time to sit down and read the many pages and try to digest the material myself and then figure out what’s missing, and our personalities clash anyway. 
 

We are going to switch her to a General Science instead...(NOT Apologia General Science but another one meant for 11th graders.)

Edited October 19, 2019 by Calming Tea

[Miss Tick]

Sounds like a smart move.

[fourisenough]

Not sure if it’s too late to jump into Connie’s Clover Valley Chem, but it’s fantastic! DD is in the regular (non-honors version) and has declared it her favorite class of all time. She does have a self-paced/parent graded version.

[klmama]

Do you realize that general science is usually considered a middle school class?  It's the 7th grade text in the Apologia series.

Which edition of Apologia Chemistry does she have?  If she has the 3rd edition, you might have her watch some of the helpful instruction videos Dr. Wile links on his website.  For that matter, the videos may be helpful even if she's using an earlier edition.  If she has edition 1 or 2, you might take a look at the free online Apologia Chemistry instruction and quizzes/exams at Virtual Homeschool Group.  On VHG you would sign her up for the AYOP (at your own pace) class, not the live class, which is full.  She may find it helpful to use the instruction on this site before reading the text, then use the quizzes to help her recognize material she needs to spend more time learning.

It's not in the same order, but she might like the video instruction in the original Georgia Public Broadcasting series, Chemistry: A Study of Matter.  The videos are free online, as are note-taking guides and worksheets.  The inexpensive teacher materials (copies of worksheets, quizzes, reviews, tests, labs, and keys for all) can be ordered here, if you prefer to use this as a full course.    

There is a newer series at GPB, as well, called Chemistry Matters, which you'll see advertised at the start of each episode of the original series.  It breaks down the instruction into shorter segments that are more easily searched, if she just needs help understanding individual topics.  I still prefer the original series as a whole, but the "closer look" supplemental videos for each section of the newer series are helpful.  

[8filltheheart]

5 pages per day  M-F is actually very minimal for a high school jr.  I would really try to help her find a way to cope bc understanding why she isn't managing to fit everything in every day might end up being a lifesaving skill when she goes to college. 25 pages between a Tues- Thurs class might be the norm.

Edited October 19, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

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6 hours ago, klmama said:

Do you realize that general science is usually considered a middle school class?  It's the 7th grade text in the Apologia series.

Which edition of Apologia Chemistry does she have?  If she has the 3rd edition, you might have her watch some of the helpful instruction videos Dr. Wile links on his website.  For that matter, the videos may be helpful even if she's using an earlier edition.  If she has edition 1 or 2, you might take a look at the free online Apologia Chemistry instruction and quizzes/exams at Virtual Homeschool Group.  On VHG you would sign her up for the AYOP (at your own pace) class, not the live class, which is full.  She may find it helpful to use the instruction on this site before reading the text, then use the quizzes to help her recognize material she needs to spend more time learning.

It's not in the same order, but she might like the video instruction in the original Georgia Public Broadcasting series, Chemistry: A Study of Matter.  The videos are free online, as are note-taking guides and worksheets.  The inexpensive teacher materials (copies of worksheets, quizzes, reviews, tests, labs, and keys for all) can be ordered here, if you prefer to use this as a full course.    

There is a newer series at GPB, as well, called Chemistry Matters, which you'll see advertised at the start of each episode of the original series.  It breaks down the instruction into shorter segments that are more easily searched, if she just needs help understanding individual topics.  I still prefer the original series as a whole, but the "closer look" supplemental videos for each section of the newer series are helpful.  

 

No, she's taking General Science 3 from AOP, the third in a sequence of high school General Science meant for 11th graders.  It's a less intense high school series which touches on all the topics of General Science, over four years.  The third year will be something more academic on her transcript, give a short overview of Chemistry as well as other topics, not as academic as a full Chemistry but better than not having a third year of academic Science at all.

 

Thanks for all of the other ideas!! They will still be useful to link since there are a few chapters of Chemistry in the course she is taking now.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Calming Tea

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4 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

5 pages per day  M-F is actually very minimal for a high school jr.  I would really try to help her find a way to cope bc understanding why she isn't managing to fit everything in every day might end up being a lifesaving skill when she goes to college. 25 pages between a Tues- Thurs class might be the norm.

 

The issue is not volume of reading.  She reads that much and twice that much in every other subject....the issue is teaching yourself Chemistry with only a textbook when you are not a Science minded person.  Not to say that better time management wouldn't help but I looked at her planner and it turns out that aside from this past week she had schedule everything out more in blocks of time over the week.  

... honestly she won't take any Science at college except the very minimal one requirement, and probably in that case it'll be an Earth Science.  Also, the 25 pages really need to be done in two or three days because you also have the OYOs each day as well as a Study Guide which takes about two days and then studying for the test.  And in college she would actually have a teacher going over the material at minimum twice per week and she would also have access to Office Hours.  So, teaching onself chemistry completely alone with only a review session for 20 minutes per week, does not mirror either high school or college.  

Honestly again I think that sometimes homeschool parents who cannot teach a subject expect kids to totally self-teach and it's just not fair or possible.  Since my dd is not a future STEM major, I dont' see the need to hunt down a tutor, and stick with a college prep academic Chemistry class, since she already had two college prep Science with Lab.  And unlike so many homeschool moms I know they either expect the kids to self teach and don't really follow up, or they do everything open-book and it's a farce.  

I think why PAC or AOP works for her is that not only is it meant for self teaching, but the material is at least for this General Science course slightly easier, as well as the fact that the program helps portion and schedule everything out, and has daily checks for understanding and mastery.  For Science, that's a good fit for my dd.  

I would be happy if, in her ONE Science class she will ever take in college if she gets a C.  C's get degrees 🙂

 

[Roadrunner]

Another vote to looking at Clover Valley self paced regular chem. She teaches in her videos. 

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Calming Tea said:

 

The issue is not volume of reading.  She reads that much and twice that much in every other subject....the issue is teaching yourself Chemistry with only a textbook when you are not a Science minded person.  Not to say that better time management wouldn't help but I looked at her planner and it turns out that aside from this past week she had schedule everything out more in blocks of time over the week.  

... honestly she won't take any Science at college except the very minimal one requirement, and probably in that case it'll be an Earth Science.  Also, the 25 pages really need to be done in two or three days because you also have the OYOs each day as well as a Study Guide which takes about two days and then studying for the test.  And in college she would actually have a teacher going over the material at minimum twice per week and she would also have access to Office Hours.  So, teaching onself chemistry completely alone with only a review session for 20 minutes per week, does not mirror either high school or college.  

Honestly again I think that sometimes homeschool parents who cannot teach a subject expect kids to totally self-teach and it's just not fair or possible.  Since my dd is not a future STEM major, I dont' see the need to hunt down a tutor, and stick with a college prep academic Chemistry class, since she already had two college prep Science with Lab.  And unlike so many homeschool moms I know they either expect the kids to self teach and don't really follow up, or they do everything open-book and it's a farce.  

I think why PAC or AOP works for her is that not only is it meant for self teaching, but the material is at least for this General Science course slightly easier, as well as the fact that the program helps portion and schedule everything out, and has daily checks for understanding and mastery.  For Science, that's a good fit for my dd.  

I would be happy if, in her ONE Science class she will ever take in college if she gets a C.  C's get degrees 🙂

 

It sounds like you have made a decision about science, but are you sure she will only need 1 science credit to graduate? Every single U my kids have attended has a required 3 science courses to meet gen ed requirements.  Out of curiosity I looked up Penn State's gen ed requirements for graphic design since IIRC that is one you mentioned in the past, and it states 9 cr hrs. (9 hrs seems pretty standard.)

https://bulletins.psu.edu/undergraduate/colleges/arts-architecture/graphic-design-bdes/#programrequirementstext

Edited October 19, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[klmama]

I understand the issue with Apologia Chemistry, as I had to self-teach chemistry using that text in order to be able to help my oldest understand.  After I read and highlighted the book and looked at the test and answer key, I was better able to determine what was important and could help my dc understand the material, but it wouldn't have gone well if I hadn't been able to do that.   

Thanks for clarifying about the high school level of this general science class.  My question with your new plan is if the colleges she's interested in will accept General Science 3 without General Science 1 and 2.  I remember reading that could be an issue sometimes with Integrated Math 1, 2, and 3 classes at the high school level; this might be a similar situation.  It might be worth making a few calls before switching.  

ETA:  I assume your dc took physical science or earth science freshman year and biology sophomore year, right?  The General Science 3 course will likely include some of those topics again, which is why I'm wondering if G.S. 3 will be accepted as a full credit.  

Edited October 19, 2019 by klmama

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2 hours ago, klmama said:

I understand the issue with Apologia Chemistry, as I had to self-teach chemistry using that text in order to be able to help my oldest understand.  After I read and highlighted the book and looked at the test and answer key, I was better able to determine what was important and could help my dc understand the material, but it wouldn't have gone well if I hadn't been able to do that.   

Thanks for clarifying about the high school level of this general science class.  My question with your new plan is if the colleges she's interested in will accept General Science 3 without General Science 1 and 2.  I remember reading that could be an issue sometimes with Integrated Math 1, 2, and 3 classes at the high school level; this might be a similar situation.  It might be worth making a few calls before switching.  

ETA:  I assume your dc took physical science or earth science freshman year and biology sophomore year, right?  The General Science 3 course will likely include some of those topics again, which is why I'm wondering if G.S. 3 will be accepted as a full credit.  

 

oooh good points,

She took Earth Science in middle school, Physical Science freshman year and Biology sophomore year. 

I will call some of her intended colleges and see about that! THanks for pointing it out, I had not even considered it.

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3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

It sounds like you have made a decision about science, but are you sure she will only need 1 science credit to graduate? Every single U my kids have attended has a required 3 science courses to meet gen ed requirements.  Out of curiosity I looked up Penn State's gen ed requirements for graphic design since IIRC that is one you mentioned in the past, and it states 9 cr hrs. (9 hrs seems pretty standard.)

https://bulletins.psu.edu/undergraduate/colleges/arts-architecture/graphic-design-bdes/#programrequirementstext

 

Huh, I specifically looked it up and saw 3.  I will look again. Honestly if that's the case I'd probably take it off her list. She will never make it through 3 college level Science classes unless by Science they have sort of social sciency options.  

OK as usual, you are spot on...they require 9. BUT they include hundreds of classes, many of which look pretty do-able ....still I will have to really look into this further.  https://bulletins.psu.edu/undergraduate/general-education/course-lists/natural-sciences/  For example there is "Gardening for Fun and Profit" and "Chocolate Worlds"  ....my dd is awesome with finances and business and plants, and who doesn't love chocolate and history.  BUT I'd need to email the GD advisor and see if these types of courses (presumably meant for Ag majors) are usually full and open to enrollment in those outside the Ag college.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Calming Tea

[8filltheheart]

4 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

 

Huh, I specifically looked it up and saw 3.  I will look again. Honestly if that's the case I'd probably take it off her list. She will never make it through 3 college level Science classes unless by Science they have sort of social sciency options.  

If you follow that link and look under gen eds and then knowledge domains, 9 cr hours of natural sciences are required.  (FWIW, like I stated above, 9 cr hrs is pretty typical for gen ed requirements.)

• Arts (GA): 6 credits
• Health and Wellness (GHW): 3 credits
• Humanities (GH): 6 credits
• Social and Behavioral Sciences (GS): 6 credits
• Natural Sciences (GN): 9 credits

Edited October 19, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

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15 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

If you follow that link and look under gen eds and then knowledge domains, 9 cr hours of natural sciences are required.  (FWIW, like I stated above, 9 cr hrs is pretty typical for gen ed requirements.)

• Arts (GA): 6 credits
• Health and Wellness (GHW): 3 credits
• Humanities (GH): 6 credits
• Social and Behavioral Sciences (GS): 6 credits
• Natural Sciences (GN): 9 credits

see my above post above this one thanks!! 🙂

[8filltheheart]

34 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

see my above post above this one thanks!! 🙂

One thing to look into is if there are any sequence requirements. Some Us require a 2 course sequence and the 3rd can be a different field; some don't have those restrictions.

[Shellydon]

I don't know if you have already pulled her out, but there are tons and tons of chemistry videos out there that explain the concepts really well.  At our co-op, the students only meet once a week as well. They need to watch 5 ish videos, read 1/2 a chapter while taking notes.  In class they will review math and some concepts then do the lab.  It simply isn't possible to cover more once a week.  The videos really help, and it is easy to pair them up with the chapter.

[Farrar]

I know Calming Tea and her dd have schools in mind, but I did want to say that it's not that unusual for schools to not require three years of science. My undergrad school - Mount Holyoke - currently requires one of the student's choice entirely - back in my day it was one science and one math or two sciences. Minimal requirements are not so unusual for liberal arts schools. Open curriculum schools don't necessarily require any at all.

I think the lesson here is to know what sort of schools you're aiming for and what will be required once you're there. Sometimes a lot of gen ed with a lot of rules and sequences, sometimes none. It varies a great deal.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Farrar

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Thanks Ferrar! Everyone has had great ideas and points.  DD and I are doing our research now which will include reading the requirements as well as emailing the advisors.  It looks like for PSU for example her department can take any NS and there are enjoyable ones such as horticulture and bees and their World that are open to any major.  

At another school she is looking at they require two NS, (another big state school) but they don't require any particular ones.  So we have to do our research and see if they also offer some options that are not as heavy on memorization.

Two more of the schools are, as Ferrar said, small Liberal Arts colleges and only require one Science, and one of the choices is Physical Science which is pretty accessible for my dd.  But again we will be sure to look carefully into it. 

[MamaSprout]

Reading through this thread, I think some people are talking about entrance requirements to college and some are talking about degree graduation requirements. OP, do make sure your dd has enough and the right kind of sciences for her college applications.

Edited October 21, 2019 by MamaSprout

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Correct, we veered in two different but connected, directions, but it's ok. I've got it all straight.  

So I called and none of the colleges care what her third Science as a high school student is, is as long as it's a full unit.

Once AT the college:

None of them require chemistry. Yay.

Her top choice requires 3 NS but they can sometimes use non-NS Sciences to fulfill the requirement such as a humanities that is related to Science (anth)...and there are fun NS Sciences such as horticulture, the World of Bees, the World of Chocolate, etc. which, while requiring a lot of WORK, do not require a lot of super difficult Science stuff.

One of the colleges requires either Bio or Chemistry at an Intro level.  That one is an extremely small LA college which prides itself on one on one help, so conceivably she could pass Biology.

Still calling a few more. 🙂 one of the choices on her list is a big state U but does NOT have as many choices as PSU UP, so she may be stuck taking a lot of Science there, and it wasn't high on our list anyway so worth doing more research to see if it's worthwhile.