Ok, this is about my older child...

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

 I can sub some, which will help, but she’s alone on those days or Dad juggles his schedule around.  Doable.

At arm is appropriate for this age. You could probably sub or do some online tutoring or something.

[Terabith]

27 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

At arm is appropriate for this age. You could probably sub or do some online tutoring or something.

Yeah, in GENERAL I don't have any issues with her being home alone all day.  Last year, both kids would stay home alone when they were sick while I was student teaching.  It was just with the suicidal thoughts, not a great time to be spending large amounts of time alone.  And in general, I don't think it's fair to ask most teens to try to homeschool while alone all day, every day.  Most people need teaching or dialogue or conversation.  And she's definitely a social person.

[Terabith]

So far, things are mostly going well.  I’m not making huge demands, but she’s been doing two lessons a day from Derek Owen’s precalculus; we are reading Dante’s Inferno together but separately (because reading aloud is loud) and talking about it.  We are watching a Great Course on cultural geography.  It occurred to me that since she’d earned an A in first quarter of AP Human Geography, if we did SOMETHING for another quarter, I could legitimately give her a semester of credit.  We are just watching and discussing but whatever.  She did a crap ton of work in school last quarter, honestly.  Haven’t figured out what to do about Spanish; her tutor has a million irons in the fire and doesn’t have a regular schedule, but going to try and make it work with her rather than doing an online class.  

I’m not sure the homeschool theater class is going to work.  It’s very small and most of the kids are much younger and it’s very much “for the glory of God,” and while we’re pretty orthodox Christians, Anna herself has pretty significant doubts at the moment.  And they’re clearly the kind of Christians that will at the very least pray super hard for us, if they knew Anna was anywhere on the gay/ non-binary spectrum, and with her buzz cut, I am not sure we could successfully hide it forever. There are some classes at the theater company downtown that we should maybe investigate.  

She has read a lot.  Hasn’t done much art. She’s watching “Futurama.”  I filed official paperwork with the district. Have to get our official permission letter before we can register for classes at the community college for next semester.  She’s calmer but still very bothered by sounds like loud cars driving by, airplanes flying overhead, and people mowing the grass.  She’s wearing headphones a lot.  The first ear plugs we ordered didn’t work well, so we are trying again.  She saw her counselor on Monday and has a second opinion psychiatrist appointment for Thursday.  She tried aikido last week and didn’t love it but is willing to go back.  She’s continuing art lessons with the teacher we have had for a few years.  I’d like her to practice more and work on skills more, but she’s having fun and doing silly stuff, and that’s enough.  She’s not in a hurry to join the children’s choir her friends are in.  The webpage about auditions is pretty hard core.  It’s a pretty hard core choir, so she’ll have to decide if she wants it. 

[PeterPan]

Sounds like a lot of good stuff! So, fwiw, without meaning to be really biased or nervous or whatever, I will say it seems like the theatre crowd (even at christian universities btw) can be a lot of people sorting things out. Like it's an age to sort things out, but you might want to be careful who she's sorting it out with, especially if it's adults in theatre. But I say that and we have adult theatre around here that has very sensible, mature people! So whatever, something to watch.

Maybe she'd like some kind of history of religion or survey of religion /the Bible class? It's a legit thing and there are textbooks for it. 

Maybe she'd thrive in a more creative theatre environment? Sometimes there are co-ops of people writing their own plays, etc.. But that's admittedly hard to find. 

It sounds like you're doing a lot of good things and going the right direction. She has to sort stuff out, get her body calm, learn her strategies and tools. So having the chance to do that is worth a lot. I'm glad things are looking a bit up! 

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Sounds like a lot of good stuff! So, fwiw, without meaning to be really biased or nervous or whatever, I will say it seems like the theatre crowd (even at christian universities btw) can be a lot of people sorting things out. Like it's an age to sort things out, but you might want to be careful who she's sorting it out with, especially if it's adults in theatre. But I say that and we have adult theatre around here that has very sensible, mature people! So whatever, something to watch.

Maybe she'd like some kind of history of religion or survey of religion /the Bible class? It's a legit thing and there are textbooks for it. 

Maybe she'd thrive in a more creative theatre environment? Sometimes there are co-ops of people writing their own plays, etc.. But that's admittedly hard to find. 

It sounds like you're doing a lot of good things and going the right direction. She has to sort stuff out, get her body calm, learn her strategies and tools. So having the chance to do that is worth a lot. I'm glad things are looking a bit up! 

Yeah, I think that's sort of just the nature of the beast with theater groups.  Definitely no on history of religion or Bible.  She knows a LOT about the Bible and church history.  My husband says I burned them out on religion.  She's pretty anti even world religions, which would be really good, because she doesn't know much about other religions.  But she's pretty adamantly opposed to religion in general right now.  We're being pretty minimal, and I'm trying to make minimal strategies, put energy into eating/ sleep schedule/ exercise/ calming strategies.  

[Lecka]

Eating/sleep schedule/exercise/calming strategies are no joke!  Sounds like a lot of good things are coming together 🙂

[Terabith]

I am a little concerned because even minimal demands include some math, and she's getting paralyzed and panicky with it, and honestly, I can't help with the math part.  But I'm not sure homeschooling can work if she can't do the math.  My husband is helping, but she's getting so upset over it.  She's fallen asleep, and the psychiatrist was saying today that she shouldn't be napping.  I don't know.  I'm really not enthusiastic about this, because I can't really TEACH her most of what she needs to know, and I really, really, really don't want to get into the role of mom making teacher demands.  Homeschooling the first time around was awful for our relationship, and sending her to school totally transformed how we interacted.  I could just be cheerleader and supportive; I wasn't the one saying, "You have to do this."  But for high school, I kinda feel like there's at least a minimal amount that needs to be done, and her anxiety is such that I have no idea how much to push.  I feel like making NO demands is not intellectually honest for me to give her credit, but making demands puts us into this adversarial relationship and/ or makes her more anxious.  And my husband is saying things like, "She might not be ready to take classes at the community college next semester," and I'm like, "Uh....then this isn't going to work.  Because I am not comfortable with doing it all.  At all.  And I feel like it's a recipe for agoraphobia."  But I really, really need someone else making demands.  

[Lecka]

Can you take her back in math to a point where she is comfortable?  
 

It’s hard when you don’t know if it’s all anxiety, or partly that the math has gotten to a place where her foundation is not solid and that is contributing to it not going well.  

I think a lot of kids fly through math levels and find it’s not as solid as it should be.  
 

I hear of kids who place lower for college placement even though they have gone through more advanced math classes in high school.  
 

 

 

[Lecka]

I would try to keep her up, but it is such a battle. The world runs with most activities being held in the day, and it will really limit her to either morning or evening options if she is asleep through most of the day.

If she had some really good social option that was morning or evening and she could either stay up for it and then sleep, or get up for it, maybe, but it really is very restrictive.  
 

Also if she can do whatever she wants and have the house to herself (in a sense) at night while everyone sleeps — yeah I think it does feed into staying in and wanting to stay in.

And then to some extent it does work for people to be able to work at night and be out at night and everything is quieter and calmer.  But it’s limiting and I don’t think many youth activities or opportunities would be happening at night.

Honestly it’s hard but I don’t think it gets any easier if she is napping.

If she’s up by herself at night, that is the ultimate in “no demands.”  And it’s hard to compete with that.  
 

The dream job for this in my old town was night stocker at Target.  It’s actually a thing — it’s a job with benefits, at night, and little need to talk to people, but the people to talk to might be kindred spirits.  And before/after work things are deserted and very quiet and calm.  

[Lecka]

My son would hate to be woken up and be very mad at me, but it was easier to wake him up in the day than let it go and try to switch his sleep schedule back.

Now he can adjust his sleep schedule much easier, but he understands and wants to do it.  It’s not like I’m making him and my purpose is so he can do something he doesn’t want to do anyway.  
 

But at a certain point I feel like — are you going to get into dragging her awake for her counselor appointments?  I would have that with trying to drag him to church on Sunday morning (in the summer) and it was just very hard.  But then I had to keep him awake all week if he was going to be able to go to church without — like — falling asleep in the car and being groggy when getting ready.  And our church started late!  

[Lecka]

Anxiety and sensory are often a bad combination, and make each other worse.  It’s very hard.  But I think it’s worth trying to keep her involved and awake and things.  I would not worry as much about math right now unless you think it is a big anxiety thing for her and worth trying to do a little just so it’s not something she thinks about.  

[Lecka]

It is hard but at night if she’s up, does she have full access to favorite things?  You might limit some things as for when she is awake in the day.  Like the internet lol.  
 

I also have a hard time waking kids up in the morning when I know they went to bed late, but I have had serious bed time creep that way, and it is just — it’s really better if I do wake them up.  I say them but this has only been an issue with one of my kids.

And with him he is not this way when he is in a good routine and looking forward to going places and things like that. 
 

 

[Lecka]

My son was younger so it was a different kind of thing to shake him awake and tell him not to lie down and tell him to get in the car.  I was not doing that with a teen.  So I don’t even know if that translates.  It is how it was for me though with a younger child.  

I am pretty sure it was the summer he was 9, and then he went back to public school for 5th grade.  That summer between 4th and 5th was the worst point.  Except it was low-conflict in its way as he was fine as long as he could be at home and not go anywhere.  But it was bad for him being dull and not wanting to go out and wanting to be up by himself at night and not deal with anyone.  

Edited October 31, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

With church too he would beg and beg not to go into Sunday School, he would beg to sit in the hall outside my Sunday School and read.  Then he would want to stay on a bench outside the sanctuary, instead of going into the sanctuary. 

[Lecka]

Also I do think she’s at risk for problematic video game or Internet usage, just in general, if she is up at night.  It’s something that can make things harder.  It’s something to think about and you might be more pro-active about WiFi access or whatever at night if you see things starting to go this direction.  

[Terabith]

Honestly, it has been so long since I did high school or college level math, that even if I took her as far back as Algebra 1 (from precalculus), I would have to do a lot of studying and it would be really hard.  I don't think taking her back is a really realistic option.  My husband, who is a physicist, says that she actually is really solid on the math part, but that what she's struggling with is some terminology.  So, switching curriculums to Derek Owens from whatever the heck they were doing in public school (they didn't have a textbook so I have no clue), she's kind of flummoxed by the assumption that she knows what things like "calculate interest" mean.  That she can do the math part but isn't clear on what some of the word problems are asking.  And it totally makes sense that different programs would have covered different things.  It's just frustrating, because I'm not prepared to teach high school math (or Spanish.  Or science.).  I just feel really ill equipped to teach her, both because it puts me in a situation of making demands on her and because I haven't taught anyone operating above about fifth grade level.  It's not like I've been learning along with her all the way along.  Last time I homeschooled, we were doing about fifth grade level work.  Even writing and stuff....I've not been working along incrementally.  I have a masters degree and I can DO it, but I don't have a good feel for how to TEACH someone to write, jumping in towards the end.   I know how to do basic narration, basic paragraphs, five paragraph essay stuff.  But she was pretty much doing AP English Language.  I can read it and say, "This transition feels abrupt to me."  But I don't really know how to incrementally teach a kid how to write better transitions.  

She has ALWAYS been a night owl.  I'm a night owl.  My husband is a night owl.  Her sister is a night owl.  We were the only family I've heard of that had to actually set an alarm to get our toddlers to music and me toddler class at eleven am.  And she's always needed a lot of sleep.  One of the major reasons we homeschooled the first time around was legitimately there was no way to have put her to bed at six pm, which is what would have been necessary for her to get enough sleep to have been on the bus at 6:45 am.  There's no way she could have fallen asleep that early, and she also couldn't function on less than 12 hours of sleep till she was like nine.  Even now, today the psychiatrist was saying that she should shoot for around seven hours of sleep, and I'm like, "Uh, she really needs closer to ten."  I mean, she can cope for a day or two on seven, but day after day?  She would be a mess, even before she got depressed and anxious!  She just needs a lot of sleep.  She does use the internet, including at night, but it's mostly to watch videos like Futurama.  A lot of times she's drawing or reading though, too.  And we can definitely push for the whole household to get up and going at the same time.  That's reasonable.  I don't have any worries about electronics addiction or anything, though.  

[Lecka]

If she can get up during the day to do things then it would not be the same issue.  That was a huge problem for me but my son is not one who can just get up and function for an hour or two if he’s been sleeping then.  

[Lecka]

Seven hours seems too low to me too.  My son about the same age sleeps 8-9 hours.  

[Terabith]

Oh yeah, she can totally get up during the day and do stuff.  But, I think it's still better to try to keep the whole household on the sameish sleep schedule.  

I agree.  I think it's pretty common for teens to need 8-10 hours of sleep a night.  

[Pen]

Regarding math: I think it would be good to have her do a year of review or “easy” math.  Perhaps Khanacademy or something like that could work for her.  It doesn’t seem like she wants to be in a STEM field- and even if she did she really doesn’t need to have precalculus in 10th grade.    It’s possible also that statistics or business math would be more useful in her life if not going into STEM than precalculus would be.  

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, Terabith said:

But for high school, I kinda feel like there's at least a minimal amount that needs to be done, and her anxiety is such that I have no idea how much to push.  I feel like making NO demands is not intellectually honest for me to give her credit, but making demands puts us into this adversarial relationship and/ or makes her more anxious.  And my husband is saying things like, "She might not be ready to take classes at the community college next semester," and I'm like, "Uh....then this isn't going to work.  Because I am not comfortable with doing it all.  At all.  And I feel like it's a recipe for agoraphobia."  But I really, really need someone else making demands.  

So deciding things based on your anxiety isn't a good thing. There are a range of schools, a range in the caliber of what happens. So I think get your anxiety in check and get realistic about what is important. If the MOST IMPORTANT thing was for her to get major academic pushing, she'd be in school. Clearly that's not the most important thing.

She needs to spend time working. She needs to continue to heal as a human. The academics are enough for now if she spends the time working. Don't ask what, don't get picky, don't fret. Four years from now it won't matter what you required, didn't require for history or whatever, but it will matter a lot that she made peace with her body and sorted things out. She's probably bright enough that it WON'T MATTER what you do/don't do right now.

So time spent = units. Not credits because credits are material covered. Carnegie units=time spent. Technically you should be marking carnegie units (not credits) anyway, so this is just forcing you to learn sooner. If she spends the time and does something, add it up and mark units. Done. Do not complicate it more than that. Her test scores are going to be fine no matter what you do and she will be fine in college. Stop fretting. Honest. 

And I just saved you $2k, because I paid BIG BUCKS to a swanky neuropsych to have him tell me that about dd. I kid you not. And you got to hear it for free. 

On the math, get her MUS, something she can do independently.

Don't make this about you, your worries, your fears. And yeah, if your dh is saying she's not ready, I'd put some stock in that. There's zero benefit to rushing.

[Terabith]

Not sure time spent helps us because when she’s on the ball, she can easily do three math lessons in an hour.  So when I say my demands have been minimal, I mean....maybe three hours worth of work? If we stretch it all together and include some art and free reading?  Like, I legitimately required more work, time wise, of her when she was in third grade.  But, she wasn’t angst ridden and anxious then. 

I’m just struggling, partly because I really don’t want to be doing this.  Academic concerns are really at the bottom of the list of concerns, but academics are a way to sort of distract her and get herself out of her head.  But, her depression and anxiety trigger my depression and anxiety. And I really don’t want to mess up our relationship by making academic demands.  I really liked just being mom and not teacher.  And I feel out of my depth.  My husband said something like, “If she’s not in good enough shape to do dual enrollment...”. And I am like no!  Doing this part time, as a placeholder is one thing.  But the deal was two classes in the spring and more or less full time next year.  I get not being able to handle eight plus hours a day in the classroom. But eight hours a week (two classes and a lab) really should be doable or we are pushing agoraphobia.  Plus I really, really, REALLY don’t want to do this full time.  

[PeterPan]

What does her paper trail say is a full load for her for college? For my dd that has been 12-15 hours. The psych had said to shoot for 14, and with enough meds and support that's where she lands now. When she was DE, she could do *1* college class with her regular load or 9-12 (I forget honest, it was probably something odd like 10 credits) of only DE. That for her was like totally maxed out.

Remember, if she's on campus DE brings a lot more opportunities. Even if she's living off campus, just being there with kids will result in her hanging in the coffee shop, meeting people, doing stuff. And one semester DE class = one YEAR of high school for the subject. So if she does 3 DE, that was actually a full load for a high schooler. And you expect (minimum, before disabilities) 2 hours out of class for every one hour in class. Maybe it's higher? It's high like that.

Edited November 1, 2019 by PeterPan

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

What does her paper trail say is a full load for her for college? For my dd that has been 12-15 hours. The psych had said to shoot for 14, and with enough meds and support that's where she lands now. When she was DE, she could do *1* college class with her load or 9-12 (I forget honest, it was probably something odd like 10 credits) of only DE. That for her was like totally maxed out.

Remember, if she's on campus DE brings a lot more opportunities. Even if she's living off campus, just being there with kids will result in her hanging in the coffee shop, meeting people, doing stuff. And one semester DE class = one YEAR of high school for the subject. So if she does 3 DE, that was actually a full load for a high schooler. And you expect (minimum, before disabilities) 2 hours out of class for every one hour in class. Maybe it's higher? It's high like that.

She’s never had any academic testing.  Well, not since early intervention for speech delay and sensory stuff as a toddler.  So, I assume full load is standard 4-5 academic classes for her?  Probably wouldn’t be dumb to do academic testing.

She won’t be living on campus as a 16 year old.  For one thing, our community college doesn’t even have dorms.  They’re convenient places for lab sciences and other classes I am poorly equipped to teach.  I think the plan was in the spring to take college writing and geology.  

I have always heard that rule about two hours of work for every hour in class, but with very few exceptions, I rarely got anything close to that.  But I’m a super fast reader.   

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

She’s never had any academic testing.  Well, not since early intervention for speech delay and sensory stuff as a toddler.  So, I assume full load is standard 4-5 academic classes for her?  Probably wouldn’t be dumb to do academic testing.

Oh I meant full psych evals. She has an anxiety diagnosis or something, right? So, fwiw, you might want to get full psych evals, make paper trail, and use that to get any needed accommodations. They are not dependent on IQ, so who knows what a good psych who spends some time with her would say, kwim? I don't actually know. I'm just saying if she's preparing to DE, that might be your next step. Good psych evals, updated paper trail.

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She won’t be living on campus as a 16 year old.

Yeah, my dd wasn't living on campus when she DE'ed either. Nevertheless, she'd hang a lot and made friends.

Freshman writing classes are a pain in the butt. Not saying it's a good plan, but does writing come out easily for her? As long as it does, taking the 2nd class might work.

[Terabith]

Writing is pretty easy for her.  She feels like she’s never had solid instruction past the basics we did when she was little.  So she’s not confident about transitions and such, but she’s pretty fast and decent at it.  

[Lecka]

Is she getting out for other things?  Is she keeping in touch with any kids?

Do you know if the CC issues would be from the class work/academics, or having to go out and be around people?

Is her anxiety just about everything at this point, or is it more about certain things?

Are you making non-academic demands?  Is the demands issue with many things or just academics, but you feel like you need to make academic demands, so that is where it shows up?

I think it makes a difference because if she was doing some productive, out-of-the-house, social things then I would think those were important demands, too, and doing those show she is doing things to challenge her anxiety.

If the academics are a proxy for all the demands — then it’s not just “academics” but that it represents all kinds of demands.  
 

I think if there’s anything productive that would challenge her and get her out of the house — would be good.

I think you have two really separate things going on, Iow.

One thing is being concerned she is staying in too much and isolated.  
 

Two and a different thing is the academic part.

 

If you are NOT concerned that she is staying in too much and isolated, then — I think that there are not agoraphobia concerns.  Not wanting to go to CC is not equivalent to agoraphobia concerns.  
 

If you are concerned about those things — I think CC is one option but many options and non-academic options would all work well.

And she may need her mental health better to then go and concentrate/value academics.  
 

I think though, separate the two things and don’t conflate them, it will confuse issues.

I think it’s easy to have academic concerns and over focus on them, but parenting is going to be broader than that and I think parenting-level things need to be a higher priority than academics if — there are major problems and things aren’t happening like they need to — other areas can happen before academics without worrying about academics, they can wait a bit and it is okay.  
 

 

[Lecka]

Iow demands that would target the anxiety/depression/isolation issues can matter more than academic demands.  
 

If she is getting isolated.  If she is, that can mean more time to stew and also — just isolation.  
 

It is a worse problem than not working on her math.  
 

And then if it is just academics — I think there are a lot of options where you can outsource it in some way where you don’t have to directly teach or grade her.  That is not “cc or bust.”  

Edited November 1, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I think, if you sat and thought about the top 3 priorities right now, and the top 3 demands you would want to make, including leaving the house and exercise and social contact or social participation — what are they?  I think it might be that one thing about academics makes the top 3 right now, and maybe 0.  In two weeks you could see where things are and add one more demand, if one of the top 3 of right now was pretty established.

That would be okay.  There is some time before you guys have to decide on Spring semester.  

[Storygirl]

Is she willing to do one math lesson per day? If that would take her 20 minutes, fine, be done with math. Don't let math be a stressor. If she isn't understanding and needs more help than just doing the lesson, other math things may need to be added.

I think a good goal for math, between now and January, is to just do the next thing and get it done and not allow it to be a big deal.

Don't worry about whether she is doing enough of a particular subject to fully occupy her time. You do need to figure out a balance, so that she does not lapse into sleeping all of the time, but if you depend upon academics to take up enough of her day to keep her busy, it's going to make the academics stressful, and for the next couple of months, it seems best to avoid that.

The same with writing. She doesn't have to put out stellar quality writing between now and January. Since she is creative, would she like to spend November doing the NaNoWriMo challenge?

I think you are right to be concerned about keeping her busy. And I can see how that would be stressful for you. And I have a hard time keeping up with my kids' academics now that they are in high school, so I get that, too. It's a lot of stressors for YOU right now. I'm wondering if you are sharing your stress with her and making her more stressed. I think you probably need to protect her from that. Which means you need a good outlet for dealing with your emotions. That's probably all obvious, but I think it's worth saying. I am worried about her, but I am equally worried about YOU. Take care of yourself, and you will better be able to care for her and have a good perspective and better problem solving skills.

[Storygirl]

So, as far as occupying her time, NaNoWriMo seems like a perfect option to me (unless she does not LIKE writing).

And then the reading. I assume she is also a fast reader, so she may have time to do personal reading as well, and I would encourage that.

I would keep her up during the day and enforce a family bedtime at night. Not always pleasant to do, but it's possible; we do it here. I understand the challenges of being a night owl, but it still can be done, if you make it a family priority. Remove the ability for her to use the internet or watch Futurama or whatever at night. As long as she is up at night, she will want to sleep during the day, even if what she is doing at night is innocuous.

Perhaps as an assignment, have her do a research paper about sleep. It's importance. The dangers of switching the body from daytime to nighttime alertness. Ways to improve sleep and help oneself get to sleep when you don't feel sleepy. Not only would this give her something to fill her time, but it may help her get on board with understanding why she should regulate her sleep, even if it's hard, and even if she doesn't want to. She was able to be up in the morning for school, so she CAN do it.

Have her set her own goals and discuss them with you, so that they are HER goals and not just YOURS.

Consider whether there is a volunteer opportunity. Perhaps at the library, since libraries are quiet.

Put her in charge of making supper for the family. She can research recipes. She can do the shopping at a quiet time of day, if her sensory would allow it. That would be an excellent thing to do first thing in the mornings, when the store is quiet. I know a family that had their college son make dinner for the family nightly over a school break. He could make anything he wanted, and the parents would pay for groceries plus pay him $10 per day. But he had to do the planning, shopping, and cooking.

In other words, tie into her interest in healthy food and her willingness to read and write, and maximize opportunities to spend time on those things.

Another idea is for her to do a project about the history of theater. You can tailor this to her interests. Have her write bios of her favorite actors. Or a description of the Globe Theatre in England. Or a history of a theater festival she wishes she could go to. Or a description of various non-acting theater jobs and the way to train to do those jobs. Or have her watch classic theater performances and write reviews, as if she were a critic.

Her language arts can be tailored to her interests, and you don't have to be an expert in writing to be the teacher. Make her writing for the rest of this semester focused on her expression, instead of focusing on the elements of good composition, if you don't feel that you can help her with the technical part of it.

[Lecka]

I don’t know if her napping is more like sleeping or more like lying in bed and saying she’s tired and wants to be left alone.  
 

If it’s the second, maybe there are things like making cookies or doing an exercise video that would be something tempting.  

[Lecka]

This is something about myself -- but I really felt like -- if my son said he didn't feel well, there was no reason to question that, he must not feel well.  I took it at face value.  Really it can be more complicated than that.  There is a lot of need to read between the lines and make judgment calls as a parent, and not unquestioningly allow a child to avoid things by saying they are sick.  

I think it's the same with sleep.  If she can get up in the day whenever -- well, it's not like she's dead tired and has to be sleeping.  So then I think it gets into -- well, sometimes kids like to lay in bed, but they are not sleeping.  And some amount is fine, too.  But I think there's a judgment call with feeling like "my kid is tired, I'm not going to question that, it is good to rest."  That is all true.  But it's also true that there can be problems with kids being able to lie in bed at times when it is not appropriate.  And then depending on what is going on with it, maybe make limits or guidelines.  That is different from it being just -- an unquestioned thing.  Even though -- it's good to get sleep and rest.  

I think if it's sleep, then at some point it is going to be a sleep cycle problem and hinder her being able to get up in the day. 

And if it's more lying there -- then I think filling the time is good.  But it does not just have to be academics at all, or lead into you bringing up academics.  If you bring up academics too much it can make her want to avoid you, too, and then that can get really counter-productive.  That gets hard as you also need to make demands.  But you have a lot of leeway with what demands to make and there are some good ideas for things that might be non-threatening.  

Meeting any demand you make, even if it is preferred by her, is a good step towards her meeting the less-preferred demands.  That is how making demands works a lot of the time, at least.  

[Lecka]

I think too, does your daughter know the psychiatrist recommended she not nap during the day?  Do you like this psychiatrist?  I think it is risky sometimes to show kids that you pick and choose what you listen to from an authority figure -- it makes it easier to not do some things that are hard.  It's not that I think it's 100% bad all the time, but I think it can be risky in that it can undermine the authority in a way that weakens the advice and willingness to follow advice.  

[Pen]

At my son’s school, Algebra 2 is the end of required math unless kids wish to go further.  

Your daughter doesn’t need to take any more math unless she is aiming for a very small select group of schools such as Cal Tech which require Calculus to have been taken.  And even then she doesn’t need to have it as a 10th grader. And if she is, IMO, it needs to be driven by her own desire, not by your anxiety.

At my son’s school (and reflecting entrance requirements for most colleges and our state U) 4 English credits are required.  3 each of Social Studies and Science. 2 fine arts/foreign language.  A few state specific requirements like Health and PE.

And 1 credit of Career Exploration— which in my opinion is ( or at least was with a teacher now retired - I hope it stays excellent) the most valuable class they take

24 total credits total with the rest coming from electivclasses  Of student’s choice. 

When kids are done with required classes they can stop taking more classes and use the time to do as they wish (sleep in, internship, work) 

They May take precalculus and beyond, but it’s their choice.  They may stop math at the level your dd has attained, and most planning non STEM careers do stop there. 

There are kids coming out of that and going on to become veterinarians, doctors, lawyers, teachers, musicians, farmers, foresters, electricians, ... etc.  (as well as some having troubles and not finding their way...).  

So far as I can tell emotional crashes are more responsible for failure to do well than is lack of Calculus.  

 

The plan that you said your daughter had herself sounded great.  I expect that there are plenty of colleges that will look kindly on it. 

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I think too, does your daughter know the psychiatrist recommended she not nap during the day?  Do you like this psychiatrist?  I think it is risky sometimes to show kids that you pick and choose what you listen to from an authority figure -- it makes it easier to not do some things that are hard.  It's not that I think it's 100% bad all the time, but I think it can be risky in that it can undermine the authority in a way that weakens the advice and willingness to follow advice.  

 

There could also perhaps be a traditional daily nap/siesta time each day after lunch.  Most of USA doesn’t have that. But many places do, and it is probably quite healthy.

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

So, as far as occupying her time, NaNoWriMo seems like a perfect option to me (unless she does not LIKE writing).

 

She coukd set her her own goal and have it be a picture book with more art less writing too. 

 

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

As long as she is up at night, she will want to sleep during the day, even if what she is doing at night is innocuous.

 

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Perhaps as an assignment, have her do a research paper about sleep. It's importance. The dangers of switching the body from daytime to nighttime alertness. Ways to improve sleep and help oneself get to sleep when you don't feel sleepy. Not only would this give her something to fill her time, but it may help her get on board with understanding why she should regulate her sleep, even if it's hard, and even if she doesn't want to. She was able to be up in the morning for school, so she CAN do it.

 

I strongly recommend the Walker book on sleep.

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

 

Have her set her own goals and discuss them with you, so that they are HER goals and not just YOURS.

 

👍

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Consider whether there is a volunteer opportunity. Perhaps at the library, since libraries are quiet.

 

👍

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Put her in charge of making supper for the family. She can research recipes. She can do the shopping at a quiet time of day, if her sensory would allow it. That would be an excellent thing to do first thing in the mornings, when the store is quiet. I know a family that had their college son make dinner for the family nightly over a school break. He could make anything he wanted, and the parents would pay for groceries plus pay him $10 per day. But he had to do the planning, shopping, and cooking.

Great idea! Maybe help her with the cooking so she’s not all alone, but with the dd making decisions as head chef.

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

In other words, tie into her interest in healthy food and her willingness to read and write, and maximize opportunities to spend time on those things.

 

 

👍

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Another idea is for her to do a project about the history of theater. You can tailor this to her interests. Have her write bios of her favorite actors. Or a description of the Globe Theatre in England. Or a history of a theater festival she wishes she could go to. Or a description of various non-acting theater jobs and the way to train to do those jobs. Or have her watch classic theater performances and write reviews, as if she were a critic.

 

History of theater is extremely interesting IMO.  It could be a whole project based learning module. 

But it isn’t really needed either IMO.  It sounded like Anna ‘s own idea of what to do was excellent and plenty.

 It is just Terabith’s anxiety driving feeling that there needs to be more. 

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Her language arts can be tailored to her interests, and you don't have to be an expert in writing to be the teacher. Make her writing for the rest of this semester focused on her expression, instead of focusing on the elements of good composition, if you don't feel that you can help her with the technical part of it.

 

Absolutely!  

And mostly, just responding and pointing out what you liked can be enough.  

(If she writes a bunch and wants more input, she can join a class for feedback purposes or perhaps a writing group locally.  She can also use Great Courses materials which you might be able to inter library loan.) 

 

[Pen]

Even to extent that Anna herself wants to focus on precalculus (as you reported a page back), and before getting to the problem of distress over it, she could do a relatively easy precalculus.  

See what MUS has if anything.  

Or maybe this: Calculus Without Tears: Easy Lessons for Learning Calculus for Students From the 4th Grade Up https://www.amazon.com/dp/0976413809/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_.QeVDb1QWVNR5

Or have her try James Tanton  videos and books.

or other options to make it less distressing!

 

[Terabith]

She doesn’t really enjoy writing.  It’s definitely hard for her.  She says she is a pretty slow reader.  She is definitely a slow reader in comparison to me.  But, I am by far the fastest reader I know.  I read something crazy like over a thousand wpm.  She reads slower than my husband, too.  But...fast enough, I think?  She’s definitely a math and science kid.  

I’m trying to follow her plan.  Her plan was to do math, work with the Spanish tutor, and read some lit.  Take art lessons and try aikido.  We went to the theater open house but I don’t think it’s a good fit.  All much younger kids.  Only thing I have added is watching Great Course on geography.  She had talked about taking geology at the community college and wanting to feel more secure in her writing skills.  We talked about different approaches and she thought the community college approach would fit the best because it would be tailored to what colleges want.  She doesn’t want a lot of fluff.

She has been texting a friend from school. They’re trying to get together but said friend is insanely busy.  She’s gotten out to Grandma’s house, a couple restaurants, aikido, art, Spanish tutoring.  But D&d at the public library was overwhelmingly noisy.  It wasn’t really objectively noisy.  

Part of the issue is we don’t really make demands as parents.  Historically, homeschooling was the only major exception to that.  I mean, a few, minor demands.  But from about age eleven on, the number of times we have made direct demands is low.  Requests, yes.  Lots of discussions.  And they’re self directed, helpful, considerate kids.  We haven’t needed to make demands.  Even when they were very little, we set up the environment so we hardly ever had to say no.  Really really tight control over environment.  I mean, obviously we had to sometimes.  But minimizing demands and conflict and maximizing making good decisions for yourself has always been our overall goal.  The last time I really made demands consistently was the ill advised vision therapy debacle of 2013.  So I am trying really hard to get her to follow through on her plan without setting up conflict.  But depression definitely makes her less likely to do anything.  Which makes it harder to not make demands. But demands feel super threatening because they aren’t routine.  Up till now, I have felt like our parenting style has been a good fit for our kids.  But it definitely has some drawbacks.   

Edited November 1, 2019 by Terabith

[Terabith]

She's been going to bed at a fairly reasonable hour.  Like, between eleven and midnight.  Which isn't AWESOME but is pretty good for her.  Part of the issue is anxiety has been creating insomnia.  So she's going to bed but isn't really sleeping.  She's been coming into our bed a fair bit, which isn't great but is dealable.  For awhile.  At some point it keeps my husband and me from sleeping well, because she wiggles and kicks incessantly.  So she needs a lot of sleep but her anxiety keeps her from sleeping.  And depression makes her more tired.  It really is a vicious circle.  

[Pen]

You could time her reading. See if it is normal for her age/grade.  If not, could be there’s a stealth dyslexia. 

Not sure what GC Geography she’s doing, but they have some really good ones.  Not all have “Geography “ in title.  

Also there’s a surprisingly good basic overview Geography for dummies book and Geography coloring book that could be of interest.  

 

She could help peruse math programs and decide what seems to be a good fit.  Sometimes when something seems too hard it can help a lot to go back to easier material and make sure that’s all solid.  Also some easier level material can help with confidence. 

Maybe taking some career direction interest inventory type testing would be a help for her.

maybe she’s a math science type person who would do better in a quiet payroll office, not someone who should be doing a lab science career. 

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She's been going to bed at a fairly reasonable hour.  Like, between eleven and midnight.  Which isn't AWESOME but is pretty good for her.  Part of the issue is anxiety has been creating insomnia.  So she's going to bed but isn't really sleeping.  She's been coming into our bed a fair bit, which isn't great but is dealable.  For awhile.  At some point it keeps my husband and me from sleeping well, because she wiggles and kicks incessantly.  So she needs a lot of sleep but her anxiety keeps her from sleeping.  And depression makes her more tired.  It really is a vicious circle.  

 

This is where I’d put first attention.  Could you listen to the Walker book together and try to implement its ideas as a homeschooling health .25 credit, or part of a science credit? 

Also try the Food related information such as What the Heck Should I Eat and the one by Mark Hyman related to the brain and nutrition?

Because that might be foundational to the sleep problems.

[Terabith]

We looked at a bunch of math programs, and she did pick it.  My husband says she knows the math, that it's the terminology on the word problems that is throwing her.  Also, I realized last night that she was doing the homework that was supposed to be done after the NEXT lesson.  So the videos hadn't really covered it.  No wonder she was frustrated!

[Lecka]

I think your last paragraph is very insightful.  I think that might be something to get professional guidance about.  Edit I meant about demands and what would be appropriate in your situation.  

Edited November 1, 2019 by Lecka

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

We looked at a bunch of math programs, and she did pick it.  My husband says she knows the math, that it's the terminology on the word problems that is throwing her.  Also, I realized last night that she was doing the homework that was supposed to be done after the NEXT lesson.  So the videos hadn't really covered it.  No wonder she was frustrated!

 

You might have put this already, but I can’t recall - what math program is it?

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

You might have put this already, but I can’t recall - what math program is it?

Derek Owens.  We looked at a bunch of samples, and that was the one she liked the most.  She thought he had the clearest explanations.  I like that they do the grading.

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Derek Owens.  We looked at a bunch of samples, and that was the one she liked the most.  She thought he had the clearest explanations.  I like that they do the grading.

 

Does it have ability to communicate with instructor and/or other students ?

[Lecka]

I don't know if this is helpful, but if you do get advice to make some demands or have consequences, even though it is likely to cause conflict -- I think with my son he did know, maybe not at the moment, but in general, he knew I wanted things to go well for him.  

And I knew that a lot of things he might have said or ways he might have acted, were coming from feelings of anxiety.  It was not personal.  

I think with my situation there were not as many factors as you have and so it was simpler to go in a direction of "okay, parent-led desensitization," combined with really trying to get him into some successful situations where things would go well for him.  But it's like, for me to even get him to where he could have something go well, I had to put up with some anxious, um, conflict directed at me.  

But it was more straightforward in a lot of ways.  

I would not want to get into that, with not knowing if it was the right direction to go in.  

Edit:  He was also  younger and a different parenting style is more appropriate for younger kids than for teens, for sure.  

Edited November 1, 2019 by Lecka

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Does it have ability to communicate with instructor and/or other students ?

Yes, instructor, no to other students.  

[Lecka]

I was also getting advice like -- if I give in to some certain anxiety things, it sends a message that those things really are scary or unmanageable, and I don't trust him or have faith in him to handle it, so I would actually be harming his confidence and feeding into his anxiety.  

But then if I held to some things, there would be high drama.  I do think of it more as drama than conflict but I guess just because -- it wouldn't really last?  It would last at the time but the next day it wouldn't be like he was still mad at me or really hated me for it.