Ok, this is about my older child...

[Lecka]

Interoception is a good idea!

[prairiewindmomma]

One of the things we did was get an IEP with OHI as a listed condition so we can do 5 years of high school if need be. Ds does a partial day at school currently, with SPED transport bringing him home so i dont have to do a pickup. 

We are also looking at hybrid opportunities for next year—partial at brick and mortar and partial through the district online offerings. 

I would honestly bring a suicidal kid home and show up at the school doorstep telling them how bad things really are and that they need to change now before she goes back. Suicidal kids are like “the house is on fire” level emergencies and no school is ever worth that level of school trauma. 

My IRL BFF has a child with body dysphoria tied to gender issues. Honestly, based on what several of my friends have experienced, I would also look at HF ASD Evals. There is a very high correlation between particularly girls with ASD + LGBTQ  = suicide ideation.

[prairiewindmomma]

One last thought—what is the end goal for dd? Look, I have some pretty dang bright kids in my family and we kind of peeked behind the curtain this year of university admissions and realized that the pressure cooker culture of high school is kind of a load of cr-p. There are a lot of paths to success in adult life (even to high paying jobs within adult life) and being able to step outside and really view the craziness of it all is eye opening. 

Of my friends who are fellow attorneys or who are highly specialized medical doctors or who are in Wall Street finance (however you want to define success)—the degrees are just checkboxes. Connections help with initial job placement and it’s really social skills + hard work which have brought career success. Academic prowess has not been the defining characteristic that leads to who has performed “best” IRL. High school guidance counselors are rarely the seat of wisdom and authority on how to be successful in adult life. High school kids lack perspective because they are, well, kids. Offer a balancing voice. 

I hear a lot (like cr@p ton lot) of anxiety in your posts. It is hard to get perspective when the gerbil wheel of fear is spinning in your brain. I would encourage you to step back and big picture things. Even a mental health year is a small blip in the grand scheme of things and if she is needing that now to get to a healthy, functional place, give yourself the space to do that.

And please know we put our money (literally) where our mouth is on this—dh took a huge pay cut (1/3) and we relocated cross country two years ago because things needed to change.

 

[Terabith]

10 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

One last thought—what is the end goal for dd? Look, I have some pretty dang bright kids in my family and we kind of peeked behind the curtain this year of university admissions and realized that the pressure cooker culture of high school is kind of a load of cr-p. There are a lot of paths to success in adult life (even to high paying jobs within adult life) and being able to step outside and really view the craziness of it all is eye opening. 

Of my friends who are fellow attorneys or who are highly specialized medical doctors or who are in Wall Street finance (however you want to define success)—the degrees are just checkboxes. Connections help with initial job placement and it’s really social skills + hard work which have brought career success. Academic prowess has not been the defining characteristic that leads to who has performed “best” IRL. High school guidance counselors are rarely the seat of wisdom and authority on how to be successful in adult life. High school kids lack perspective because they are, well, kids. Offer a balancing voice. 

I hear a lot (like cr@p ton lot) of anxiety in your posts. It is hard to get perspective when the gerbil wheel of fear is spinning in your brain. I would encourage you to step back and big picture things. Even a mental health year is a small blip in the grand scheme of things and if she is needing that now to get to a healthy, functional place, give yourself the space to do that.

And please know we put our money (literally) where our mouth is on this—dh took a huge pay cut (1/3) and we relocated cross country two years ago because things needed to change.

 

This is a good point.  I think part of what is fueling my huge anxiety is that this is all a HUGE change for this kid.  I mean, my younger one, we've been on the "is she or isn't she" autistic since she was two.  And I've spent her whole life advocating for anxiety issues and learning disabilities and social skills and stuff.  And she's brilliant and delightful and funny and quirky and great, but we've always known that her path to adulthood was going to look different.  And I've had this whole lifetime to sorta make peace with that.  

But...this is ANNA.  And she did have a speech delay as a toddler, but from infancy, she was charismatic and extroverted and intelligent and social and insightful and she just...glowed.  She has always been happy, bright, funny, excellent executive functioning....  I was looking at pictures from two years ago, and she looked like herself.  And literally last year at about this time, she just stopped being herself.  She got sad and depressed and lost her glow.  She just sort of wilted.  But it was kinda gradual.  I remember commenting about it at Halloween last year, but it seemed to be tied into her period.  And then it was almost all the time, but she was still functioning, just sad.  And now she's not functioning.  But there hasn't ever been a thought of her path to adulthood being atypical.  And I'm not opposed to that, at all.  I'm just taken aback, because a week ago, she was having crying jags, but she has all A's in her classes and was singing in the musical theater group and doing tech for the school play.  And yes, the pressure cooker of high school is stupid, and I'm cool with finding alternatives.  And I seriously have no problems with deciding to homeschool.  But I'm worried about making that decision quickly, when she's massively depressed, because there's no going back, and there are potentially a lot of things to lose that she loves when she's not depressed (access to friends, a phenomenal choir, drama opportunities).  It can be a totally valid choice.  But, if we pull her from school, she can't go back.  So it's a decision with a lot of ramifications.  And it's about a kid who we've always figured would go to college, marry a nice girl, probably not have kids, get a job in science or computers maybe, play D&D and board games with friends, read books, and do a lot of art on her own and sing in a community choir. 

The whole body dysphoria thing came about so suddenly, too.  And I was suspicious, because it coincided with starting a new school where I swear, a good quarter (and most of the cool kids) of the kids assigned female at birth are somewhere on the spectrum of trans/ nonbinary/ etc, especially in the arts community.  So while she's been pretty vocal about being gay since she was 11 or 12, she has been the pink and purple dresses with poofs, doing ballet, playing with barbies, about as typically feminine as possible all throughout childhood.  And we've hung out with trans folks her whole life.  Her godmother is trans.  But there was never any hint of gender identity issues, and literally overnight, she met all these kids who have gender issues and is saying she does too.  And, I'm totally fine with buying binders and shaving her head and playing with pronouns and all, but I'm having a hard time getting too invested into it, because there was no hint of this until she got a crush on a nonbinary kid.  

And...her sister is autistic.  It certainly wouldn't be the weirdest thing for her to be spectrumy, too.  But it's just so sudden and different and she's always had excellent social insight, close friends, just....no sign of it up until now, beyond a speech delay that was caught up to significantly above average by 2.5 and sensory issues that mostly consisted of being terrified of the wind at age two and uneasy about fast food play places until elementary school age.  Both of which were managed by getting lots of exercise.  

Yeah, I am panicky.  My bright, shiny, relentlessly optimistic kid who was best described by pretty much everyone as enthusiastic (about almost everything) is so depressed she's suicidal, and I didn't see it coming.  And I'm kicking myself because in retrospect, she stopped being herself a year ago, but I kept writing it off as a phase or hormones.  

[Lecka]

I do empathize with the idea of a mental health year off of school.  It makes so much sense.

But reality really can be — kids gets isolated, depression gets worse from that, anxiety IS reinforced from not going to school because anxiety can be like that, and that can get into — kids who won’t go to a therapist either, or who won’t talk to a therapist.  This is very possible with anxiety and with not doing something because of anxiety.  It can lead to not doing other things because of anxiety.

I think that to some degree — what is possible will depend on how severe the depression and anxiety are.  If they are not so severe she can’t go back to school — that is what I think is best.

If they are more severe of course that takes precedence.

But of course she can take a mental health year and go back.  She would just lose a year of high school as a worse case.  Maybe something could be worked out.

But it would be possible that she could have a mental health year or semester and actually repeat a semester or year.

This is something that Would Be Okay.  This would not be the end of the world.  This would be a path some kids take when they have a mental health crisis.  This can be part of getting healthy for some.  
 

So this is not an all or nothing decision for the rest of high school.  She can go back to high school.  But she might not have the same graduation timeline you expect right now.

This is a big anxiety-provoking thing, but it’s also the kind of thing where — if it happens and then it turns out to be okay — that can be good for someone to see “wow this thing happened I thought would be so bad, but it is okay, and it’s working out.”

I also am influenced by — frankly it was very hard for me with my son, and part of it was his sleep schedule, as he had trouble sleeping and then his sleep schedule would be so off, and he would like to be up at night, and then — oh, he would be too tired for daytime things (an wash out then).  And to a change the schedule it would be like — spending days checking every 30 minutes to make sure he wasn’t quietly slipping off to sleep and then having to have a confontration.  That gets very old very fast and very antagonistic.  But not doing it means — forget any day activities.  
 

This is a common known thing also.  It leads to isolation and depression.  It can get into extreme Internet or computer issues also which — haven’t been mentioned but it is a “thing” for many people in this situation.

It is not that I am against a mental health year or think school is so great.  I just think often a mental health year is easier said than done, because it is very hard to do *the things that would be so desirable to do as part of a mental health year* when there has been a big thing (school attendance) not done because of anxiety.  That does not just go away, it has happened and it is part of the anxiety landscape, and it’s a big thing to happen in the anxiety landscape.  
 

But I do think ANY thing where there is “all or nothing” thinking right now is not good.  One of those is “she can’t go back.”  She can go back, she just might repeat some of her classes, she might graduate later.  Or maybe the guidance counselor counts up her hours and she can get credit after all.  There are all kinds of options.  But it’s true ———— they are *not options a perfectionist will like at all.*. But that does not make them impossible.  
 

I hope your meeting and medical appointments go well this week and there is a good path forward you and your husband and daughter can agree on.  
 

Anything that is taking a path of least resistance to what makes sense to feelings of anxiety and depression — may not be things that lead to the anxiety and depression getting better.  
 

I do not know as much about depression not doing what feels good for anxiety is often going to result in more anxiety, because it means avoiding anxiety.

Anyway — that is just my perspective.  
 

I also have a relative where he always spirals down badly when he does not have a daily structure and daily (or near-daily) social interaction of a routine type (like — at a routine level, very basic).  It is a little scary and it’s much easier to avoid than to get out of it.  

[Lecka]

Also I think — forgive yourself for not noticing.  It is not easy to notice things like this.  It’s hard to notice.  I felt pretty stupid for not noticing what was going on with my son and then talking to people like “oops I let him stay home and thought he was really sick.”  It’s pretty embarrassing.  

But looking back I did not have the information to realize until we were already in the situation we were in.  

[Pen]

 

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

But, if we pull her from school, she can't go back. 

 

Why on earth not?  Isn’t this your local public school? 

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

So it's a decision with a lot of ramifications.  And it's about a kid who we've always figured would go to college, marry a nice girl, probably not have kids, get a job in science or computers maybe, play D&D and board games with friends, read books, and do a lot of art on her own and sing in a community choir. 

The whole body dysphoria thing came about so suddenly, too.  And I was suspicious, because it coincided with starting a new school where I swear, a good quarter (and most of the cool kids) of the kids assigned female at birth are somewhere on the spectrum of trans/ nonbinary/ etc, especially in the arts community. 

 

There does seem seem to be a trans is the new in thing situation.   In a lot of teen environments.

It seems to be a thing that gets positive attention in many quarters.  Was a thing that made me wonder how great her friends are. There seems to be current pressure to be transcas there once was pressure towards maintaining a Barbie figure by bulemia.  

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

So while she's been pretty vocal about being gay since she was 11 or 12, she has been the pink and purple dresses with poofs, doing ballet, playing with barbies, about as typically feminine as possible all throughout childhood.  And we've hung out with trans folks her whole life.  Her godmother is trans.  But there was never any hint of gender identity issues, and literally overnight, she met all these kids who have gender issues and is saying she does too.  And, I'm totally fine with buying binders and shaving her head and playing with pronouns and all, but I'm having a hard time getting too invested into it, because there was no hint of this until she got a crush on a nonbinary kid.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

And...her sister is autistic.  It certainly wouldn't be the weirdest thing for her to be spectrumy, too.  But it's just so sudden and different and she's always had excellent social insight, close friends, just....no sign of it up until now, beyond a speech delay that was caught up to significantly above average by 2.5 and sensory issues that mostly consisted of being terrified of the wind at age two and uneasy about fast food play places until elementary school age.  Both of which were managed by getting lots of exercise.  

 

Sounded like significant sensory issues, eating and food issues, sleep issues, and a tendency toward anxiety and depression that have been long standing 

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, I am panicky.  My bright, shiny, relentlessly optimistic

 

Doesnt square with a kid who at 10 wasn’t going to have kids because of global warming.  That’s not relentless optimism

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

kid who was best described by pretty much everyone as enthusiastic (about almost everything) is so depressed she's suicidal, and I didn't see it coming.  And I'm kicking myself because in retrospect, she stopped being herself a year ago, but I kept writing it off as a phase or hormones.  

 

Don’t kick yourself about what’s past.

deal with the now

[texasmama]

I have also missed significant mental health issues in more than one of my kids because it is impossible to be objective with your own kids. And I am a mental health therapist with many years of experience with kids and teens.
 

You find yourself here now. You know now. You have not been doing nothing so have not been negligent. It is just that the current situation is not adequate to promote safety and mental health. This is a very complex picture you paint with your daughter. It will take time and experimentation to find what works for her. And then she will grow and change and the plan will need to change, as well. 
 

Neurologists can manage mental health meds as psychiatrists can and are often much more accessible. Try this route. 

[geodob]

You could look further into her 'Perfectionism'?  Where their are 2 basic types: 'Adaptive Perfectionism' which is a healthy form that is realistic.   The other type is:  "Mal-adaptive Perfectionism;, which is an unhealthy form, with many consequences. It also has peaks at Puberty and early Adulthood.   Where the changes that occur at these ages, redefine their Perfectionism.
It can also be made more extreme, when combined with OCD.
But her Perfectionism is really vulnerable to the attitude of her school.   Which is just exacerbating it.
The main treatment for this, is CBT Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.   Which attempts to replace the mind-sets of Perfectionism.  With success from more practical goals.

 

[Lecka]

There is another dynamic I was really blind to and also — I had no idea it existed.  It turns out to exist and it is a thing.

One of my other kids was having a lot of issues.  I was on top of that as well as I could be.

But it’s a thing when that is the case, for the other kids to be assigned the role “the one without any problems.”

I definitely did this.

And then without me even knowing it — this puts a massive amount of pressure on these kids to be the ones who don’t cause any problems and who don’t HAVE any problems.

When my other son started doing much better, both of my other two kids who had been so perfect, started being bratty for about two years. But it was like — they finally had space to have normal childhood brattiness, because the pressure was off of them.  
 

Then I felt so bad and stupid, because definitely I did things that were part of that dynamic.  
 

It turns out this is a dynamic that can happen and I have even watched a TED talk about it!  
 

This is not the same one I watched but I watched a minute and I think it is the same kind of content. 
https://www.ted.com/talks/jamie_guterman_glass_children/up-next
 

 

I definitely would think things like “thank goodness I don’t have to worry about a and b, thank goodness I can count on a and b.”  It is way too much pressure to put on a child but I really thought they could handle anything and did not realize what kind of pressure it was.  
 

This was not one of the main things in what was going on with my son but it was a part of it and it was something that lasted longer.  
 

But it is also very hard to go from thinking “this is  one of my children every thing is easy for, isn’t it great,” and having that (for me) be something where it would make up for my other son having some issues.  And then it was hard to think of them as kids who would also have problems and not everything would be easy for them.  It was really hard and kind-of —— one more thing for me where I didn’t want things to be that way, it was not what I envisioned.  


 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I really agree with “you find yourself here now.”

That is so true.  
 

It is really different than where you expected to be, but that is okay.  

[Pen]

How can you get a 504 plan at your dd’s school?

Do you have an appointment with the 504 plan administrator? 

 

[Pen]

Could you clarify why you can’t have your dd take off the rest of this year to focus on her health and then return to school next year?

 

[texasmama]

5 hours ago, Lecka said:

There is another dynamic I was really blind to and also — I had no idea it existed.  It turns out to exist and it is a thing.

One of my other kids was having a lot of issues.  I was on top of that as well as I could be.

But it’s a thing when that is the case, for the other kids to be assigned the role “the one without any problems.”

I definitely did this.

And then without me even knowing it — this puts a massive amount of pressure on these kids to be the ones who don’t cause any problems and who don’t HAVE any problems.

When my other son started doing much better, both of my other two kids who had been so perfect, started being bratty for about two years. But it was like — they finally had space to have normal childhood brattiness, because the pressure was off of them.  
 

Then I felt so bad and stupid, because definitely I did things that were part of that dynamic.  
 

It turns out this is a dynamic that can happen and I have even watched a TED talk about it!  
 

This is not the same one I watched but I watched a minute and I think it is the same kind of content. 
https://www.ted.com/talks/jamie_guterman_glass_children/up-next
 

 

I definitely would think things like “thank goodness I don’t have to worry about a and b, thank goodness I can count on a and b.”  It is way too much pressure to put on a child but I really thought they could handle anything and did not realize what kind of pressure it was.  
 

This was not one of the main things in what was going on with my son but it was a part of it and it was something that lasted longer.  
 

But it is also very hard to go from thinking “this is  one of my children every thing is easy for, isn’t it great,” and having that (for me) be something where it would make up for my other son having some issues.  And then it was hard to think of them as kids who would also have problems and not everything would be easy for them.  It was really hard and kind-of —— one more thing for me where I didn’t want things to be that way, it was not what I envisioned.  


 

 

Oh yes. I could not agree more with this. I have a completely neurotypical kid sandwiched between one with autism and severe anxiety and another with anxiety and physical disabilities. It is too much for him to bear up under sometimes.

Everyone here on this thread is doing their very best under difficult circumstances. We go one step at a time with the information we have, and some of it will be throwing things against the wall to see what sticks. Just a shout out to all the special-needs mamas here today. This is hard as hell.

[Terabith]

The school will not accept any credits done homeschooling.  It's possible that they would let her go back and repeat her sophomore year, but the school system has a huge push for graduating "with your class," and if kids leave mid stream, I have heard from other people who have tried to take off a year for health reasons and return that the school system makes it incredibly hard for them to return because it alters their stats with the state.  

I know it's incongruous to say that she was bright and shiny and cheerful and optimistic while also saying that she wasn't going to have kids because of climate change, but the two things really truly are true.  My mother in law started telling them when they were toddlers that they didn't want to have children because children are terrible and the world was going to end.  So it was just something they accepted, but it didn't alter how they felt about day to day life.  In practice, she GLOWED and bounced and radiated joy and enthusiasm ("enthusiastic" was the word used to describe her by everyone, up to and including strangers at restaurants, "My, she's enthusiastic, isn't she?").  She loved God and ballet and singing and playing and reading and pottery and computers and swimming and her family and friends, even if at some form of intellectual level, she believed, because she'd been told by my mother in law, that climate change made it cruel to have children.  

Heck, my mother in law told me not to have children because it was consigning them to a life of despair when the climate change apocalypse kicked in.  

There's definitely probably been some kind of pressure to be the normal kid.  That almost certainly has been a thing.  

I guess you could say she had sleep issues, in that she always was a night owl, but she slept EXTREMELY well within her personal hours.  She needed (and got) a solid 11-12 hours of sleep up till about age 9.  She (in addition) took a nap till she was almost 4.  I guess you could say she had anxiety issues, but only about gravitational insecurity in certain kinds of play structures (and the wind for about four months when she was two).  Compared to my kid who was phobic of EVERYTHING, that was pretty much nothing.  Most toddlers have weird fears, and being afraid of heights wasn't exactly incapacitating.  The only eating issue she had was getting nauseous if she ate breakfast, which I also do, and so do my mother and sister.  She has always eaten a wide variety of foods, both healthy and junky, until she started at the public high school last year, when everything started to go downhill.

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

The school will not accept any credits done homeschooling.  It's possible that they would let her go back and repeat her sophomore year, but the school system has a huge push for graduating "with your class," and if kids leave mid stream, I have heard from other people who have tried to take off a year for health reasons and return that the school system makes it incredibly hard for them to return because it alters their stats with the state.  

 

I don’t think it’s legal for a child to need time off and then not be allowed to return to school. They don’t need to accept credits from the time off, but I don’t think they can legally deny her an adequate education through end of high school.  

I don’t think Virginia can be extremely unique in that regard.   Not legally. 

I think you may need to have a year off for her for health reasons —and then may need a lawyer.

 

Quote

She has always eaten a wide variety of foods, both healthy and junky, until she started at the public high school last year, when everything started to go downhill.

 

I didn’t understand that the eating pickiness was new.  

I thought it had been there before but wasn’t a problem with excellent chef at Catholic school or at home. 

[Pen]

It would be a stunning legal case too...    straight A student traumatized by school experience needs time off, then school refuses to allow her back!

[Lecka]

What you are hearing is gossip on some level.  

All that matters is what happens when you interact with the school.  

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

What you are hearing is gossip on some level.  

All that matters is what happens when you interact with the school.  

Well, that's true.  I don't know what would actually happen.  

I can't multi-quote.  I mean, yes, the pickiness was not a problem at home or Catholic school, because it wasn't really pickiness.  She isn't even super picky now.  She just doesn't like, day after day, foods that require neither heating nor refrigeration and can't get squished in a back pack, since there are no lockers or anywhere to store lunches, and also can be eaten in 15 minutes or less.  When I sat down and thought about what met those requirements, it really is a fairly small and monotonous list of foods, none of which she LOVES (but was willing to eat on occasion but not day after day).  Most fruits and vegetables bruise. She still eats a wide assortment of foods at home, other than allergies to sea food.  Just after 4-6 pm.  Except now that she's not going to school, she's eating consistently.  

[Pen]

Maybe for school if she goes back she needs a hard metal container that can fit in her backpack along with a small freezer pack.  It could have all manner of foods in it.  

This sort of thing and big enough back pack to hold it: Stainless Steel 3-in-1 Bento Lunch Box with Pod Insert - Holds 6 Cups of Food - Eco-Safe, Healthy, Durable Lunch Container for Kids and Adults https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0716B2ZFK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_0qLRDb7V3AWHZ

 

[Pen]

Anyway if it’s basically all new or not more than two years bunch of problems rather than there but not noticed because of the sisters so much greater problems, then some detective work may be needed to start sorting it out—and bit by bit getting things on track.  

I’d tend to start with getting all the basics of exercise, nutrition, sleep going right for her.   Because everything is likely to be wonky if any of those is off.

the crush on trans or non binary or whatever u wrote situation then seems like another big area

and the sense of her chances of a happy and successful life being over if she hasn’t had at least 4 AP classes 

I hope the visit with GC will go well tomorrow.  Are you prepared?   

What are you planning to say?

[Terabith]

Oh, *I* truly don't believe that happiness or future depends on AP classes.  That's a school belief.  And frankly, it's founded on institutional racism and overcrowding and the fact that the haves get the AP classes and the have nots get what even the school refers to as thug classes.

I'm going to tell them she needs a break, that we're seeing a psychiatrist at 1 and are looking at hospitalization.  That I don't think she's ready to deal with school right now.  I'll ask about the possibility of homebound.  But that she needs a break.  I'll tell them that we're seriously considering pulling her to homeschool.  I think that really may be the right move.  But if they'll give us the space to take a medical break, I'd really like to put that decision off, if possible.  I would feel a lot better making the decision to homeschool from a place of stability.  There are lots of good options.  But it comes with real consequences; at the minimum, not being able to be in classes with/ graduate with her friends, which MAY be important to her at a future date.  If they're going to push and say we can't take a break, then yes, I'll pull her in a heartbeat.  But I'd like to preserve the option for her to come back if she feels better in a couple weeks or a month, if that's possible.  And I'll see how much they're willing to bend, regroup and re-evaluate in a few weeks.  

Unfortunately, my husband has missed so much work, he really can't come.  But, I am really good at dealing with the school.  I listen, but I don't back down.  She's not ready to come back now.  That's not an option on the table.  

ETA:  Frankly, I think they will be willing to work with us, if nothing else because she maxes out the standardized test scores and makes them look really good.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Terabith

[Pen]

Why not simplify and initially push entirely for homebound with a homebound visiting teacher, and a reduced course load?  

Or mostly homebound and working up to being in school on part of the happier schedule days as she’s able? 

She probably needs a 504.

If it were me,  I’d push to get a 504 meeting planned—  presumably you have (or soon will have) a diagnosis of depression for her to work with. 

 

 

[Lecka]

Do not agree to homeschool today!

Absolutely what you are asking for is totally reasonable.  
 

If they are difficult today, don’t worry, you will be able to get medical documentation for her and take it back to them.  And then your daughter can have her options open.  

If she does hospitalization. I hope that they will be able to help (documentation, a list of suggested accommodations) with a transition back to home and whatever type of school or other activities she would be doing.  I think it is likely.  

Good luck, I hope today goes well.  

Edited October 22, 2019 by Lecka

[Storygirl]

I would not even say the word "homeschool." Stick to asking for homebound services. Once you say that you are considering removing her from the school's responsibility by homeschooling, they will have an incentive to encourage homeschooling and a disincentive to offer her services.

Keep homeschooling as a back up choice in your mind, but I wouldn't say it out loud at all. They are legally required to educate her, so focus on discussing how they will plan to do that.

I hope it goes well!

[Lecka]

Basically — okay, I think this is a worst-case scenario, but if they say “you can’t do these reasonable things,” you can put it off.

Because — basically she will have excused absences because you are taking her to a medical professional and looking at mental health treatment.

This is basically all going to be excused absences.  
 

So you can go back later with your documentation and it will be retro-actively excused absences.  
 

I think that is unlikely but it’s a worst case scenario to me.

This is different from kids who stay home but they aren’t getting professional mental health treatment.  That is what was going on with my situation — and that is why when I did go to the doctor I didn’t get a note for an excused absence.

And that doesn’t even get into — she will qualify for an IEP.  

[Lecka]

I agree — I think today you are notifying them of your current situation and the fact you are seeking treatment.  
 

But you don’t know how things are going to play out!  
 

So I think today you meet the person or people, and they tell you about what kinds of things they tend to do (which — this doesn’t mean it’s all they do!  But it can give an idea).  They can say if there is certain documentation they would need later — like a letter or a diagnosis, etc.  

I would not mention homeschooling either.  It is not their business right now.  
 

I think your daughter needs it as an option and then she can decide — instead of like “well I messed up so now I can’t go back.”  She might not go back either way, but one way is a lot more empowered than the other way.  

[Lecka]

Personally I don’t think I would want to commit to anything at all until seeing her doctor at 1:00.  There is nothing that can’t wait for that.  If you need to email or call later and let them know — that is completely fine.  

 

 

[Lecka]

I am sorry you have all this going on, and I hope today goes well.

I hope the appointment at 1:00 is really helpful and goes well.  

Thinking of you today!

[Terabith]

They won’t be excused.  Literally the only excused absence is for the day you are seen by a doctor.  We can get one for today and any days in hospital but no days that she doesn’t see a doctor will be excused.  I hate that policy but it’s in the handbook.  If the kid has the flu and is out for a week, only the day child was seen by a doctor will be excused.  

I will focus on homebound.  

[Lecka]

Definitely see what they say -- but this isn't a flu situation.  There are times there are exceptions made to policies that are in the school handbook, too.  

I hope it goes well 🙂 

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

They won’t be excused.  Literally the only excused absence is for the day you are seen by a doctor.  We can get one for today and any days in hospital but no days that she doesn’t see a doctor will be excused.  I hate that policy but it’s in the handbook.  If the kid has the flu and is out for a week, only the day child was seen by a doctor will be excused.  

I will focus on homebound.  

 

I would suggest push not only for homebound, but consideration of a change from Spanish 3 to 2. 

and unless she loves the AP class, consider asking to drop having any AP for this year so that her academic load is less stressful.  Maybe substitute yoga or another PE that can be done while homebound for the AP class. Something that would help support her health.  Maybe substitute study of psychology instead of chemistry for her science this year, both to support health and because easier to do at home.

maybe she could initially go in just for choir as able since that’s hard to do at home   Or when not able maybe someone could skype or FaceTime her in to choir class for virtually attending

Class substitutions May be something a GC can do.  

Try for an attitude of we are all here to make things work for Anna- - if possible not adversarial.

Ask about 504 process

I hope both appointments bring a lot of help.

 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

They won’t be excused.  Literally the only excused absence is for the day you are seen by a doctor.  We can get one for today and any days in hospital but no days that she doesn’t see a doctor will be excused.  I hate that policy but it’s in the handbook.  If the kid has the flu and is out for a week, only the day child was seen by a doctor will be excused.  

I will focus on homebound.  

 

Ask the medical professional for a written note to excuse absences not only for today, but if possible past few absence days and for the next week or two.  The school may or may not accept them.  But having such a written note may turn out  to be helpful.  Keep the original and give copy to school unless they demand the original, in which case keep a few copies yourself.  

 

 

[Terabith]

Okay, saw guidance counselor.  If psychiatrist hospitalizes her, we go into a holding pattern and stuff can be excused.  If she can come back in a month or so, then she probably can just go back.  If she can't go back, in practice, we are done.  

They're totally willing to do homebound.  But the only classes that she would get are Remedial English, Remedial Basic Math, Remedial General Science, and Remedial Social Studies.  When she goes back to school, because homebound is temporary, she will be put in all remedial classes.

If we just pull her for the year, and put her back in, they don't want to let her repeat tenth grade because it makes their graduation on time stats look bad.  They would put her in the "credit recovery classes" where she would take remedial classes and no electives.  I suspect I could fight this and win, but it would be a fight, and possibly a legal one.  

So, I'm thinking we probably will homeschool.  But not going to make any decisions now.  I suspect she will be hospitalized and we go into a holding pattern.  I have had my meds tweaked before and had an amazing turnaround.  But I'm guessing that's not going to be the case and that we more or less take at least the semester off (I'll say we're homeschooling, but I'm not even going to attempt anything academic this semester except possibly the Spanish tutor) and see if we're in a position to do stuff next semester or just wait until next year.  

[Pen]

IMO you need to go above GC to talk with people.  Or better, have an attorney talk with the powers that be at your school district 

Meanwhile, I’d probably accept homebound for awhile even just to cover legalities of not being in school.  

It may be that homebound teachers are not capable of teaching at more than remedial level.  

But that doesn’t mean you have to have Anna do that.  And maybe a homebod teacher would be more helpful than the GC.  Maybe could do something like get the schoolwork for Anna’s actual classes.  

You need a 504 IME.

You May very well need a Lawyer.

A lawyer would probably be way less expensive than paying out of pocket for homeschooling. 

And you might feel less depressed to fight back than just to accept the “impossibility” of getting Anna courses that fit her academic abilities while still allowing her to recover her health. 

And personally I’d get all GC refusals to give reasonable accommodations in writing.  To have a record of that—though perhaps it could cause them to dig in heels and fight and would be better to have nothing written for when attorney talks with them

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

Can't help but feel like those policies are really inordinately rigid.  They would create anxiety in anyone, let alone a teenager.  

[Pen]

Given how awful the school is, and their unwillingness to provide education above remedial level, you might want to have a lawyer fight for your district to pay for Anna to go to an out of district school. One where she can start 10th grade over next year in appropriate level classes. (And thus  also maybe not have issue of not graduating with her class, not be around the person she has had crush on, etc.) 

[Lecka]

I think you have breathing room and can see what the counselor thinks and how things go.  
 

If she does go back she will have an IEP meeting and you will have the medical opinions of whoever treats her about what would be best for her.  
 

For now though — you have got a decent amount of time to focus on other things.  

[TCB]

On 10/18/2019 at 9:37 AM, Terabith said:

Schools are actually telling them that.  We're giving different input at home, but she'd decided years ago that having children would be cruel because of climate change and the downfall of civilization.   Her whole friend group at around age ten decided that.  I know there are lots of scholarships.  But to be competitive for the top ones at even medicore schools, it's a factor.  

She does choir, art, and drama.  None at any super high levels, but they're important to her.  

I understand the school's rationales for changing all the schedules all the time and changing lunches.  But it still leaves my kid feeling isolated and insecure all the time.

No charter schools.  We can look at private schools. We could homeschool, but it's not great.  Should look into an auditory processing exam and ADHD eval.

I'm so sorry your daughter is feeling so bad. I just wanted to point out that actually there are a number of merit scholarships based on test scores such as ACT etc. My dd is at a large university on a pretty much full scholarship and she only had 2 APs on her transcript. I don't know how your dd feels about these tests, but if she can do well on them she may well be able to get some pretty good scholarship money, and she can do test prep at home quite easily with all the resources that are available for that.

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I think you have breathing room and can see what the counselor thinks and how things go.  
 

If she does go back she will have an IEP meeting and you will have the medical opinions of whoever treats her about what would be best for her.  
 

For now though — you have got a decent amount of time to focus on other things.  

 

Is IEP relevant to this situation ?  

In my area it would be a 504 plan.  I think.  And it could start now, not have to wait for going back.

Maybe both are relevant. 504 for medical part related to depression etc,  and IEP for sensory etc accommodations that might be needed

[Pen]

1 minute ago, TCB said:

I'm so sorry your daughter is feeling so bad. I just wanted to point out that actually there are a number of merit scholarships based on test scores such as ACT etc. My dd is at a large university on a pretty much full scholarship and she only had 2 APs on her transcript. I don't know how your dd feels about these tests, but if she can do well on them she may well be able to get some pretty good scholarship money, and she can do test prep at home quite easily with all the resources that are available for that.

 

We are in a rural area with no regularly offered AP’s. 2 kids got full ride scholarships to college from last years graduation class and several had significant scholarships less than full ride.  

[Lecka]

It might be either one between IEP and 504.  But “emotional disturbance” is a qualifying category for IEPs.  

I don’t know specifically but in general — yes, anxiety and depression can possibly be an IEP.  
 

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Lecka

[Storygirl]

I agree that it may possibly fall under an IEP category. And with an IEP, under federal law, the student must be placed in the Least Restrictive Environment. For an academically advanced student, remedial classes would not be the LRE.

An IEP usually takes months to get in place, so in my opinion, if she will be hospitalized and/or on homebound services, you may want to put in an official request for the school to evaluate for an IEP sooner, rather than later.

Consulting with an advocate and/or lawyer would not be a bad idea before you sign any documents with the school.

[Pen]

17 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I agree that it may possibly fall under an IEP category. And with an IEP, under federal law, the student must be placed in the Least Restrictive Environment. For an academically advanced student, remedial classes would not be the LRE.

An IEP usually takes months to get in place, so in my opinion, if she will be hospitalized and/or on homebound services, you may want to put in an official request for the school to evaluate for an IEP sooner, rather than later.

Consulting with an advocate and/or lawyer would not be a bad idea before you sign any documents with the school.

 

Thinking about it, the school’s (GC) own response to a sickness or emotional crisis resulting in them saying Anna can only do remedial classes seems to force this into IEP territory, as it makes it a disability that affects school performance by their own response. 

Yes.  I would suggest a written demand for an IEP evaluation to be made immediately so that the statutory time to respond will start running from now rather than from months in the future. 

[Guest]

If she is hospitalized, or even in a partial hospitalization program, the hospital may well have educational services on site, and may be more helpful than the schools. I know that is the case here. When I taught in the schools here, it wasn't uncommon for kids to leave to the hospital, and come back with an IEP and transition plan in place. Some, particularly in the case of mental health issues that included school avoidance, actually came back ahead of where they would have been had they been able to attend school. Usually it's a combination between the state virtual school classes, but with an on-site teacher and no requirements to attend live sessions if the student isn't up to it. 

 

And I cannot imagine that they haven't had cases where a kid needed homebound without being at a remedial level-like, say, a football player who snaps his leg in two places and needs major surgery and to be out of school for a few weeks. 

[Terabith]

Okay, we saw the psychiatrist, who I swear did not hear a word we said.  She said that Anna does not need to be hospitalized, is not depressed, and needs to just suck it up and go to school and that there's nothing anyone can do to make anything better.  She wouldn't sign anything for homebound anyway.  I really would like a second opinion, because it sounded to me like she heard "sister has autism" and didn't hear anything after that.  She is seriously, deeply depressed.  

Honestly, after being at the school this morning for the meeting with the guidance counselor and hearing how loud the hallways were while classes were in session, and seeing how my kid who LOVES school with every fiber of her being feels physically assaulted by the noise and chaos and really doesn't think she can keep herself safe at school....I don't think I can in good conscience send her back into that lion's den.  With or without a 504 or IEP.  It's bedlam, and my husband is right.  She feels like she is being physically assaulted.  Her sensory stuff has gotten bad enough that she has a hard time being in a restaurant or the public library, and it wasn't like that before.  She literally acts like someone with PTSD just from the overload of the school.  And it really is genuinely, objectively bad.  I couldn't believe it.  

My husband and Anna think she should just homeschool herself.  I think this is a horrible idea for a kid who is fairly extroverted and a social learner and is currently anxious about sensory stuff.  She may well need a break.  But she's isolating herself more and more.  She has stopped doing all the things she loves and is pretty adamant that we should all just sit silently in the house at all times (while wearing noise canceling headphones).  Her sister is afraid to exist in the common areas or speak.  I think this is a recipe for developing full fledged agoraphobia.  I think the plan should be working towards attending some sort of regular school, either the Catholic school (which I think would be small, nurturing, and willing to work with us flexibly) or classes at the community college.  But I really think the Catholic school would be the best thing.  

But.....I think I may be getting overruled.  I could care less about academics.  She's got enough academics to walk into any non elite liberal arts college in the country and function.  I'm worried about her emotionally and socially, and I think this plan to isolate herself and not interact with anyone is a terrible plan.  

[Miguelsmom]

Look into a partial hospitalization program. That way She will not be able to isolate. Thank-you for posting this, there are families going through the same thing.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Miguelsmom

[Lawyer&Mom]

What are your community college options like?  Could she take a class or two to provide some social in addition to homeschooling?  I would be choosy and only take a great class with a great prof. She needs a positive experience.  

[Pen]

Could she take just a couple of CC colleges? Maybe art and one other so as to get a feel for that experience without it being too much for her? And might there be something like a quiet museum or library where she could do some volunteering to be out amongst people, but not in a noisy environment?

[Terabith]

No partial hospitalization options for teens in our area.  

Community college is a possibility.  But she has to be willing to GO.  I really think the Catholic school, where she'd have teachers who already know and love her, would be better.  Even part day.  Small classes.  Everything is orderly and quiet.