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RootAnn

Lukeion dropouts & successes - I need your input

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My dd#3 (8th grader) is on Lukeion Latin 1a right now. She has prior experience in Latin (Memoria Press First Form & a bit of Wheelocks on her own) so right now is about 80% review. It is still stretching her. She works hard & has to think ... a lot. She likes the teacher which isn't always the case. She's doing well - not top in the class, but really good.

But, the class is also stressing her out. She never liked Latin & this class hasn't encouraged her to like it.

I'm conflicted on whether to sign her up for next semester because soon enough, the material won't be mostly review.

If I don't, she picks a modern foreign language for high school (and she's not excited by that either). She might end up doing that anyway even if she finishes Latin 1. 

I'm just looking for input from those who have tried & dropped as well as those whose kids stuck it out.

For those who will ask what she wants:  she wants to be done as soon as possible. But she will work hard if I sign her up for next semester because that is who she is.

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It won't get easier. 

If she doesn't like Lukeion couldn't she find another Latin provider if she likes Latin?

 

Edited by Paige
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It wasn’t Lukeion for Latin for us, it was Lone Pine Latin.  The first year went fine.  It was a lot of work but she did it and was mostly happy and proud of herself.  The second year was a disaster.  The difficulty went up, the volume of information went up, and the stress level went way way up.  I wish I could say that we got out of it, but we didn’t and it was a massive mistake.  She wanted the community.  She wanted to feel special.  She wanted to stay.  So she did.

And then the grades weren’t good and she was even more upset.  It was a horrible loop.  I can say we didn’t continue after the disastrous second year but she desperately wanted to.  It was one of the very few decisions about classes I made over my kid’s objections.  It was the right call.  Looking back on it now, she agrees, but she was very angry at the time.  Angry at me.  Angry at Latin.  Angry at everything.

She is now taking German in college and is truly enjoying it.   She did not take another foreign language in high school because  the emotions were just too high.   It didn’t cause issues with college applications for her, but the school she applied to has automatic acceptance with a high enough ACT score and she had that.

Prioritize the mental health.  I wish I had put a stop to the stress earlier.

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Have you considered Memoria Press Online Academy?  My daughter used them from 3rd form through Henle 2 before transferring to Lukeion Latin.  She loves Lukeion Greek, but Latin 3 was stressful for both of us.  Those two years of Wheelock appear to be The equivalent of First Form to Henle 2 with approximately 250+ vocabulary words that she had never seen and had to learn by the first week of class..  That pace is very aggressive to get through the entire grammar in two years.  The syllabus for Latin 3 was a four page diatribe on plagiarism, and I think freaked her out from asking any questions of the teacher.  The class translated 60-100 lines a week in Latin 3 which took a lot of time.  Sticking with it was a lesson (maybe a good one, not sure yet), but being stressed out and made to feel like she was mediocre at Latin didn’t do her any favors.  She did cover lots of material and it did stretch her, but she requested to switch her Latin back to MPOA for AP Latin this year and has been very calm and happy with the class so far.  Maybe she won’t get quite as high a score on the AP exam, but maybe she will.  Harder doesn’t always mean better.

I have heard good things about CLRC Latin and it appears you can join their classes mid semester.

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33 minutes ago, Paige said:

If she doesn't like Lukeion couldn't she find another Latin provider if she likes Latin?

She dislikes Latin. She dislikes foreign language in general. She also dislikes things that are difficult for her. She's naturally good at many things so I have to work to give her challenge. (Because of the work I've done up to now, she won't just quit because it is hard like she used to. But she doesn't relish the challenge.) Latin is definitely not something she's naturally good at.

If she drops Lukeion, she's done with Latin as far as both of us are concerned.

@JenneinCA My eldest is a language lover & credits her Latin studies  (which she didn't like) for helping her learn German.

Mental health is important here but I'm conflicted as to how much the challenge is important to her personal growth or if she'll later regret me letting her quit now.

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It's tough. My DS enjoys Lukeion and likes the challenge, but they aren't the best providers for his mental health. I'm right there with you. 

I don't think many people reflect on their lives, however, and say, "I really wish I'd studied more years of Latin." Maybe they'd say that about piano or Spanish or some team sport, but I'm guessing if she already doesn't like Latin she won't miss it. But you've paid...maybe she could audit.

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@Mom2mthj She took First Form from MPOA. My eldest took Second Form from MPOA & despite a disappointing experience, I tried it again with this kid. I won't say never again, but ... they just aren't a match for us provider-wise. I love CLRC but not their approach to Latin.

@Paige I've only paid for first semester & she's resigned to sticking the rest of this semester out. I'm just looking at next semester.

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Lukeion Latin was my biggest online class failure - the pace was too intense ( the condensed semesters certainly didn't help), the structure was too rigid, making it difficult to be available to submit assignments, and Quia added a ton of extra-busy work .  Zero regrets about dropping it.  

Good luck with your decision!

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10 hours ago, RootAnn said:

She dislikes Latin. She dislikes foreign language in general. She also dislikes things that are difficult for her. She's naturally good at many things so I have to work to give her challenge. (Because of the work I've done up to now, she won't just quit because it is hard like she used to. But she doesn't relish the challenge.) Latin is definitely not something she's naturally good at.

If she drops Lukeion, she's done with Latin as far as both of us are concerned.

@JenneinCA My eldest is a language lover & credits her Latin studies  (which she didn't like) for helping her learn German.

Mental health is important here but I'm conflicted as to how much the challenge is important to her personal growth or if she'll later regret me letting her quit now.

Do you require a foreign language? I do,  and if it was my kid, I’d drop this and add Italian. First because I ❤️Italian (and unlike French they annunciate the entire word there 😂) and her Latin will translate (so much).  So it wouldn’t be a total loss. 

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@madteaparty Guaranteed to annoy DD#1:  making DD#3 take Italian. Eldest would be so jealous. I require two years of high school foreign language knowledge. (I dislike how Spanish pronounces everything so that would annoy me about Italian. I'm definitely partial to French.)

I think you guys have convinced me of what I already knew but couldn't admit out loud:  no 2nd semester.

So once she finishes this semester, I can get her to focus on what language she will choose to pursue in high school.

Thanks, everybody.

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51 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

@madteaparty Guaranteed to annoy DD#1:  making DD#3 take Italian. Eldest would be so jealous. I require two years of high school foreign language knowledge. (I dislike how Spanish pronounces everything so that would annoy me about Italian. I'm definitely partial to French.)

I think you guys have convinced me of what I already knew but couldn't admit out loud:  no 2nd semester.

So once she finishes this semester, I can get her to focus on what language she will choose to pursue in high school.

Thanks, everybody.

The saying a quarter of a word is killing me with French, second time around even worse. I only recommended Italian bc I understood so much Latin (never having glanced at Latin but having some Italian) when I picked up a book for the very first time, I was shocked.

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22 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

The saying a quarter of a word is killing me with French, second time around even worse. I only recommended Italian bc I understood so much Latin (never having glanced at Latin but having some Italian) when I picked up a book for the very first time, I was shocked.

Sorry, OP, for the bunny trail... What do you recommend for studying Italian? Any online classes? My DD is taking Latin 2 with WHA this year and would like to be finished with foreign language, but I *might* be able to persuade her to try Italian. We’ve traveled to Italy recently, which will up the interest level and if I can convince her that her Latin will be very helpful, I might have a chance!

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The pace that Lukeion goes is unnecessary and not really conducive to long term success with a language, imo. As you know, my dd shares a love of languages with your DD1, but we were fortunate to have done Latin 1 and 2 elsewhere at a much slower pace. Those first couple of years of a language are so important for a strong foundation, and rushing through it doesn’t serve many students well. My dd took Greek I last year with Lukeion and the main comment she made to me was how it felt like they were just rushing through the material. She did well in the class and on the NGE, but she really doesn’t feel it gave her the best foundation.

And, yes, I know they cover the material even more quickly in college classes, but I do wonder if that is why so many students in this country never truly master a second language.

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12 minutes ago, fourisenough said:

Sorry, OP, for the bunny trail... What do you recommend for studying Italian? Any online classes? My DD is taking Latin 2 with WHA this year and would like to be finished with foreign language, but I *might* be able to persuade her to try Italian. We’ve traveled to Italy recently, which will up the interest level and if I can convince her that her Latin will be very helpful, I might have a chance!

I've paid attention to this for personal reasons and the providers people have mentioned have been: Espresso, Prego, Cyber Italian, and Oggi. I haven't had time for a course, so I can't offer any reviews, I've stuck with Duolingo. My high school Spanish grammar totally works for Italian, making it mostly an exercise in vocabulary.

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9 minutes ago, fourisenough said:

Sorry, OP, for the bunny trail... What do you recommend for studying Italian? Any online classes? 

I never mind bunny trails! The online provider who offers Italian that I can think of off the top of my head is Big River Academy, but Bright Ideas Press might, too.

I love only saying part of the word in French. ;) DD#1 found Spanish & Latin so close that she was writing the wrong words on tests (time stress) because of it. She asked to drop Latin after Latin 2 so her Spanish wouldn't get messed up. She asked to try Italian a couple of times but I convinced her that German might be a better next addition & it was.

@Mom0012 Yeah, I can't imagine taking Lukeion Latin 1 without any prior Latin. Dd#3 has had a slow grammar foundation in Latin through Memoria Press materials (Prima Latina, Latina Christiana, First Form) and started Wheelocks last year on her own. So she's seen the material but she's still learning in the class.

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4 hours ago, fourisenough said:

Sorry, OP, for the bunny trail... What do you recommend for studying Italian? Any online classes? My DD is taking Latin 2 with WHA this year and would like to be finished with foreign language, but I *might* be able to persuade her to try Italian. We’ve traveled to Italy recently, which will up the interest level and if I can convince her that her Latin will be very helpful, I might have a chance!

I’ve no idea, sorry. My kids are doing french as main language for now 🤷‍♀️

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On 10/7/2019 at 8:14 PM, RootAnn said:

My dd#3 (8th grader) is on Lukeion Latin 1a right now. She has prior experience in Latin (Memoria Press First Form & a bit of Wheelocks on her own) so right now is about 80% review. It is still stretching her. She works hard & has to think ... a lot. She likes the teacher which isn't always the case. She's doing well - not top in the class, but really good.

But, the class is also stressing her out. She never liked Latin & this class hasn't encouraged her to like it.

I'm conflicted on whether to sign her up for next semester because soon enough, the material won't be mostly review.

If I don't, she picks a modern foreign language for high school (and she's not excited by that either). She might end up doing that anyway even if she finishes Latin 1. 

I'm just looking for input from those who have tried & dropped as well as those whose kids stuck it out.

For those who will ask what she wants:  she wants to be done as soon as possible. But she will work hard if I sign her up for next semester because that is who she is.

Dd16 is in her 4th year at Lukeion. She took Latin 1 in 8th grade, Latin 2 in 9th, Latin Transition in 10th, and Latin 3 this year. It is hard for her. She is a fast worker and bright, but she still spends a lot of time on the homework and is consistently in the bottom third of her class. She has stuck with it because she loves having Dr. Fisher for a teacher. Her lowest class grade has been an A-, but it hasn't come easily. That is good in some ways. Most things come easily to her. Some struggle is good.

On 10/7/2019 at 9:50 PM, Mom2mthj said:

Have you considered Memoria Press Online Academy?  My daughter used them from 3rd form through Henle 2 before transferring to Lukeion Latin.  She loves Lukeion Greek, but Latin 3 was stressful for both of us.  Those two years of Wheelock appear to be The equivalent of First Form to Henle 2 with approximately 250+ vocabulary words that she had never seen and had to learn by the first week of class..  That pace is very aggressive to get through the entire grammar in two years.  The syllabus for Latin 3 was a four page diatribe on plagiarism, and I think freaked her out from asking any questions of the teacher.  The class translated 60-100 lines a week in Latin 3 which took a lot of time.  Sticking with it was a lesson (maybe a good one, not sure yet), but being stressed out and made to feel like she was mediocre at Latin didn’t do her any favors.  She did cover lots of material and it did stretch her, but she requested to switch her Latin back to MPOA for AP Latin this year and has been very calm and happy with the class so far.  Maybe she won’t get quite as high a score on the AP exam, but maybe she will.  Harder doesn’t always mean better.

I have heard good things about CLRC Latin and it appears you can join their classes mid semester.

Dd16 definitely feels like she is mediocre at Latin. She probably is. I do think that most of the kids who sign up for Lukeion Latin classes are exceptionally bright and pick up language easier than most.

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@Meriwether I would say your description of your daughter is pretty close to how I would describe my daughter (#3) except maybe instead of "fast worker" I would say "conscientious worker" because she isn't fast - she tries to be thorough--a perfectionist maybe. She likes Dr Fisher, but she doesn't love her.

Interestingly, I would say my oldest DD picks up languages fairly easily. I never tried Lukeion with her. I felt at the time that it was a bad fit for her personality, and I still feel that way. But, I thought Lukeion would work for this kid, and it isn't going as I'd hoped. So I may have been wrong about dd#1 too.

Edited by RootAnn
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