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reasonable to expect almost 14 yo to get themselves up in morning?


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I think I will try letting her be responsible for getting herself up and ready, with the consequence of not getting to eat til after our family studies are done if she doesn’t finish her morning stuff by breakfast time, and see how this is working after a couple of weeks.  She dislikes missing breakfast.  She knows this is the consequence, but normally I check on her at least a couple times to remind her to get up and get moving.  It is a bit of a pain to have to check on her or wake her up because her bedroom is in the basement at the very back of our large house.  (Which bedroom she has is not flexible for a number of reasons.)  If that doesn’t work, maybe I can find a wall-mounted alarm clock that she (or the cat) can’t lose.

She is not responsible enough to get her work and chores done if left to do it on her own.  And it does not work for our family’s schedule for her to be sleeping later or doing her chores later in the morning.  She has early afternoon activities fairly often and needs to have most or all of her schoolwork done by 12:30 to accommodate those.  They all do math after dinner to make time to get everything else done in the morning.  It is very difficult to get her to do any remaining schoolwork or chores after afternoon activities, and requires a lot of reminding and monitoring on my part if it’s going to happen (and even then one or more things frequently don’t get finished).  She could have more freedom and flexibility if she were more responsible, but she’s not, so things have to be done on a schedule that works for me since I’m the one making sure they actually get done.

My other kids are normally up by 7:30 at the latest, usually closer to 7, so I rarely wake them up.  They also move a lot faster than she does in the morning so they don’t need to be up as early as she does.  The older 4 all have chores they’re required to do before breakfast.  The chores just don’t get done if they aren’t done before breakfast.

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She could actually sleep til 8 if she’d get up and get moving.  She’s capable of getting ready, taking care of the cat, and doing her chore in 30 minutes, and she occasionally does.  But she prefers to lay in bed for 20 mins after waking up, daydream while getting dressed, putter around in her room, etc and so she has to get up a lot earlier if she wants to have time for a very slow start to the morning.

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Just now, caedmyn said:

She could actually sleep til 8 if she’d get up and get moving.  She’s capable of getting ready, taking care of the cat, and doing her chore in 30 minutes, and she occasionally does.  But she prefers to lay in bed for 20 mins after waking up, daydream while getting dressed, putter around in her room, etc and so she has to get up a lot earlier if she wants to have time for a very slow start to the morning.

 

I may have people confused, but is this the cat (and cat litter box) related to a cat that bites scratches (particularly this same dd) and is destructive? 

Is it her own special beloved pet cat? 

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17 minutes ago, Chris in VA said:

I'm being super nosy but I am curious what her morning chores are. But maybe don't answer, because that will probably invite criticism. 🙄

It rotates.  Two days a week she cleans two of the bathrooms (quick clean, just toilet, mirrow, sink), one day she cleans the stovetop, and one day she does the living room and dining room windows.  These take her 10-15 mins a day.  Friday we do lite school and she has a bigger chore that varies.

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21 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

She could actually sleep til 8 if she’d get up and get moving.  She’s capable of getting ready, taking care of the cat, and doing her chore in 30 minutes, and she occasionally does.  But she prefers to lay in bed for 20 mins after waking up, daydream while getting dressed, putter around in her room, etc and so she has to get up a lot earlier if she wants to have time for a very slow start to the morning.

My oldest could drag out EVERYthing to take forever. We were not in a place where we could get evals done, and because this was my oldest, I didn't know much about it. If I had it to do over, and knowing what I now know (which is really a moot point, because you don't know what you don't know), I would have somehow made evals happen and perhaps have had some better tools. The whole time this one was home, it was exhausting pulling this kid through the day. As an adult, this one seems to be handling life well, and has learned some skills along the way. But oh, it was rough many days, and you have my sympathy! 

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23 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I may have people confused, but is this the cat (and cat litter box) related to a cat that bites scratches (particularly this same dd) and is destructive? 

Is it her own special beloved pet cat? 

She is quite attached to the cat.  I think his destructiveness was largely boredom at being mostly confined to her room.  He now has a cat door and can roam the house. She doesn’t really seem to mind his biting and scratching, which is part of the problem, because she doesn’t do much to discourage it and does things that encourage it like teasing him with her foot.

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2 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

She is quite attached to the cat.  I think his destructiveness was largely boredom at being mostly confined to her room.  He now has a cat door and can roam the house. She doesn’t really seem to mind his biting and scratching, which is part of the problem, because she doesn’t do much to discourage it and does things that encourage it like teasing him with her foot.

With younger children in the house I’d probably talk to her about your New Rule that teasing the cat can only be done with a toy. The cat needs stimulation, but cats can’t tell whether or not  a foot dangling under a dining room table is fair game for attack.   It’s really not so much about whether she cares...it’s really for the well being of the cat and the other people who live in or visit your house.  A cat toy like a flexible stick with a feather or something dangling from it is really worth the cost. 

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23 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

She is quite attached to the cat.  I think his destructiveness was largely boredom at being mostly confined to her room.  He now has a cat door and can roam the house. She doesn’t really seem to mind his biting and scratching, which is part of the problem, because she doesn’t do much to discourage it and does things that encourage it like teasing him with her foot.

 

Maybe cat should be outdoors cat with a warm cat house and litter box in garage for cold weather? And just come in for carefully supervised play or snuggle time? Thus eliminating the indoor litter box problem? 

In which case maybe she could sleep till 8:15-8:30 (or even 9-9:30 if she needs 12 hours sleep as some teens do) without litterbox to clean or dirty litter box to bother you? 

Or maybe cat could be housetrained so as to do his pee/poops out of doors? 

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Does she keep her phone in her room? I’d try giving her multiple alarm clocks and charging her phone in a location where she has to be up and dressed to get it. I’d also have her shower, lay out clothes, and tend to the litter box at night. I’d reevaluate the situation after trying those two changes for a month. 

People are adaptable. We adjust to time changes and time zones. I’m not sure switching up an entire society’s rhythm to accommodate the 15-18 year old demographic is the answer. High school is fleeting and most people pull it off. Then they turn around and adjust again to college. Adaptability is a life skill. 

I FEEL her pain. I’m really truly horrible in the morning. As a teen I had to get up at 5:45 for an early bus and hated it even though I loved school. In basic training (still a teenager) I heard a bugle one morning and wondered what was going on.  It turned out they did that EVERY morning and I just didn’t hear it until 6 weeks in! In college my schedule changed every semester. It changed again for work, then again with each baby. Developing coping skills to live successfully with a schedule that isn’t your personal ideal is a good thing. 

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17 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

I actually completely agree with this in concept.  I totally hate that high schools start so early compared to what actually works best for most teens.  Teens actually generally have a bio rhythm that makes it so that starting their day in the later morning and going to bed later actually is more in line with how they generally function as teens.  Generally, I would prefer that most high schools start at like 9 or even 9:30.

 

 

In our district, high schools start at 9am. Middle schools at 8:20 and Elementary schools at 7:30a. 

They get a LOT of complaints from parents (Stay at home I presume, this schedule also helps working parents with fairly normal weekday schedules to only need aftercare) about having to get their elementary school students up SO EARLY and why can't the elementary kids sleep in and the older kids go to school earlier?!

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1 hour ago, caedmyn said:

It rotates.  Two days a week she cleans two of the bathrooms (quick clean, just toilet, mirrow, sink), one day she cleans the stovetop, and one day she does the living room and dining room windows.  These take her 10-15 mins a day.  Friday we do lite school and she has a bigger chore that varies.

 

Im curious now too as to what chores the next closest sibling in age has, and what time the next closest sibling gets up!

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I'm like that in the morning too, and so is my mother.  Mom used to say she wasn't awake until her second cup of coffee.   It's not daydreaming, it's taking time for me to get alert. This wasn't really a problem for me until I had kids and started having interrupted sleep cycles.  I might be wandering around, changing diapers with bleary eyes and cuddling a baby but I'm not functional or capable of a real conversation for at least 20 minutes. Basically until the sleep cycle would have ended.  Ironically I'm fine if I get up earlier.  I tend to naturally wake around 4, and if I get up then I'm alert immediately.  But I usually try to sleep for a while longer and then I'm bleary-eyed until 5:30.

If she's getting up with an alarm clock I'd try having her wake up earlier.  Adults typically do best with multiples of 90 minute sleep cycles, so I'd start at some time that's a multiple of that.  Meaning the time she typically actually falls asleep, not the time she goes to bed.  If she's asleep at about 9 that could mean an easier wake time at  4:30, 6, 7:30, or 9, but even 15 minutes off of those times would be more difficult.  You might find she's much more productive ALL DAY when she gets a complete sleep cycle.  I know I am.

She try showering at night and either picking out tomorrow's outfit the night before or actually sleeping in it. That would clear up some waking up time.

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1 hour ago, caedmyn said:

She could actually sleep til 8 if she’d get up and get moving.  She’s capable of getting ready, taking care of the cat, and doing her chore in 30 minutes, and she occasionally does.  But she prefers to lay in bed for 20 mins after waking up, daydream while getting dressed, putter around in her room, etc and so she has to get up a lot earlier if she wants to have time for a very slow start to the morning.

 

What are the consequences when she does this?   I suspect that you are making this your problem. 

Note, I don't think it really matters when she wakes, as long as she is ready for the stuff involving other people.  

I like the Love and Logic theory on parenting, which is mainly to let natural consequences happen.   One example was when an elementary school kid going to public school acts like your teen.    You take/send the child to public school in their PJ's and/or without breakfast.   If an elementary school kid can be expected to not dawdle, I would think a teen could be expected to do the same thing. 

That said, could some of that be changed to pre-bedtime?   I don't do anything in the morning that I can't do on auto-pilot.   For example, couldn't she feed the cat and clean the toilet the evening before?  

 

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There's just no way for a homeschooled teen that this would be something I would be willing to fight over. Studies all say it doesn't matter for the vast majority of kids when they go to sleep - teens' natural rhythms are to sleep later. When there's school, okay, drag them up. But when there isn't, why? Just to keep them on the same schedule as younger kids who have a totally different set of sleep needs? Just because it feels right to you or is unseemly to sleep past a certain hour that you've decided is the right time to get up? It just seems like control for the sake of control. Unless there's a time sensitive task or a schedule that's beyond your control, there's zero way I'd force a teen up at 7 am.

I do drag mine out at 9 and make them start school by 9:30 at the latest.

As for changing things... they did change the school times in one large district next to me and at many of the charters here for teens. It's worth pushing.

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2 hours ago, caedmyn said:

It rotates.  Two days a week she cleans two of the bathrooms (quick clean, just toilet, mirrow, sink), one day she cleans the stovetop, and one day she does the living room and dining room windows.  These take her 10-15 mins a day.  Friday we do lite school and she has a bigger chore that varies.

 

Not for anything, but I wouldn’t exactly be happily leaping out of bed early in the morning to clean bathrooms and windows, either, so it’s  hard for me to criticize your dd. 😁

You have a lot of kids, and if they all have chores like that every single day, I’m trying to figure out what they all have to do, and what’s left for you to do when they’re finished. Are all of those chores really necessary, or could things like cleaning the windows be done less frequently? Is there any reason why the chores couldn’t be done later in the day so all of the kids could sleep a bit later in the morning?

Maybe your dd would be quicker to get out of bed if she could ease into the day a bit, without having to get started on chores as soon as she gets up.

I could be completely wrong about all of this, as I never had my ds do chores and he also didn’t have a set bedtime or specific time to get up in the morning. When ds has a deadline or needs to be somewhere at a certain time, he’s very organized about it, but otherwise we are pretty relaxed. 

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4 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

I like the Love and Logic theory on parenting, which is mainly to let natural consequences happen.   One example was when an elementary school kid going to public school acts like your teen.    You take/send the child to public school in their PJ's and/or without breakfast.   If an elementary school kid can be expected to not dawdle, I would think a teen could be expected to do the same thing. 

 

EDITED TO ADD THIS PARAGRAPH:  Ok, I was clearly in a mood when I posted this, so I want to apologize in advance for sounding like a real jerk. I know I hurt feelings by posting it, and I’m very sorry! I do feel strongly about punishments like this, but my phrasing was just plain mean and there’s no excuse for that. I didn’t delete this post because I hate it when people do that. 

——————-

Does anyone actually do the “send the kid to school in their PJs” thing?

I have heard people mention that in the past, and it sounds so mean and punitive. I can’t imagine ever doing anything like that to a child. What kind of parent would ever intentionally embarrass and humiliate their child like that? I can imagine a kid having lifelong resentment toward a parent who would subject them to ridicule at school just to teach them some sort of awful “natural consequences” for not getting ready on time. Certainly there are other, kinder ways to teach a kid that it’s important to get to school on time. And the idea that this would be something a parent would do to an elementary school child absolutely sickens me. It would be wrong at any age, but elementary school children are still little kids!

Edited by Catwoman
Apologizing for meanness!
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Just now, Catwoman said:

 

Does anyone actually do the “send the kid to school in their PJs” thing?

I have heard people mention that in the past, and it sounds so mean and punitive. I can’t imagine ever doing anything like that to a child. What kind of parent would ever intentionally embarrass and humiliate their child like that? I can imagine a kid having lifelong resentment toward a parent who would subject them to ridicule at school just to teach them some sort of awful “natural consequences” for not getting ready on time. Certainly there are other, kinder ways to teach a kid that it’s important to get to school on time.

 

I only send the kid to school in their PJs when it is pajama day at school.  I have been known to have the kids owe us extra unpaid chores for time we spent helping them because they weren't ready on time.

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29 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Does anyone actually do the “send the kid to school in their PJs” thing?

I have heard people mention that in the past, and it sounds so mean and punitive. I can’t imagine ever doing anything like that to a child. What kind of parent would ever intentionally embarrass and humiliate their child like that? I can imagine a kid having lifelong resentment toward a parent who would subject them to ridicule at school just to teach them some sort of awful “natural consequences” for not getting ready on time. Certainly there are other, kinder ways to teach a kid that it’s important to get to school on time. And the idea that this would be something a parent would do to an elementary school child absolutely sickens me. It would be wrong at any age, but elementary school children are still little kids!

 

I would in a New York minute.  It wouldn't have been me that caused the embarrassment, so I don't see why she'd resent me.   I would have taken her to homeschool co-op that way.   But, I only had to say once, "I think it would be embarrassing to go to co-op in your nightie" and she put her butt in gear.    She knew I would.   It was never a problem again.  If she had gathered up her clothing but not had enough time to dress, I'd have let her change in the car.  It is important to us that she grow up to be a capable adult.   It is better to learn to not dawdle when there is a deadline while she is young, than later when she loses a job or a friend for being repeatedly late. 
 

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52 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Does anyone actually do the “send the kid to school in their PJs” thing?

I have heard people mention that in the past, and it sounds so mean and punitive. I can’t imagine ever doing anything like that to a child. What kind of parent would ever intentionally embarrass and humiliate their child like that? I can imagine a kid having lifelong resentment toward a parent who would subject them to ridicule at school just to teach them some sort of awful “natural consequences” for not getting ready on time. Certainly there are other, kinder ways to teach a kid that it’s important to get to school on time. And the idea that this would be something a parent would do to an elementary school child absolutely sickens me. It would be wrong at any age, but elementary school children are still little kids!


They are, and they are capable of choices.  My oldest was a slow morning person.  He'd get distracted, play with his toothbrush, decide to pick that time to see if he could do a handstand....
When I made the decision to take him as-is, it wasn't made lightly or without warning.  In fact, that day he had had several reminders (special music, bells, etc) about what time we were leaving and that it was non-negotiable.  I picked him up, plopped him in the car with his clothes he never bothered to put on but was holding, and drove him to his thing.  He did get to change once he was there, but I'll tell you what, he learned a few things that day:

1. My word is a promise.  I wasn't going to make a threat I wouldn't carry out.
2. That work first, play after is an important part of life balance.
3. Schedule changes affect others.  And nobody has to accept a schedule change for a wrong reason.  Our lives go on.

It wasn't set up to be mean or a punishment or something to hold over him.  It was "we need to leave at x time and we will leave at x time no matter what." 

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14 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

I would in a New York minute.  It wouldn't have been me that caused the embarrassment, so I don't see why she'd resent me.   I would have taken her to homeschool co-op that way.   But, I only had to say once, "I think it would be embarrassing to go to co-op in your nightie" and she put her butt in gear.    She knew I would.   It was never a problem again.  If she had gathered up her clothing but not had enough time to dress, I'd have let her change in the car.  It is important to us that she grow up to be a capable adult.   It is better to learn to not dawdle when there is a deadline while she is young, than later when she loses a job or a friend for being repeatedly late. 
 

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I firmly believe that kids can grow up to be capable, responsible adults without threats of personal embarrassment and humiliation. 

Clearly, you are a much stricter parent than I am. I have always tried to parent my son with kindness and understanding, and I don’t think it is worth threatening to drop a kid off at co-op in her nightie just to prove a point about being on time — and I certainly don’t believe that if a little kid dawdles here and there, it means that she will grow up to be habitually late and lose jobs and friends because of it. 

I think it’s great to try to be on time and to stress the importance of not keeping other people waiting, but I don’t think punitive threats or punishments are necessary to achieve that.

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6 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:


They are, and they are capable of choices.  My oldest was a slow morning person.  He'd get distracted, play with his toothbrush, decide to pick that time to see if he could do a handstand....
When I made the decision to take him as-is, it wasn't made lightly or without warning.  In fact, that day he had had several reminders (special music, bells, etc) about what time we were leaving and that it was non-negotiable.  I picked him up, plopped him in the car with his clothes he never bothered to put on but was holding, and drove him to his thing.  He did get to change once he was there, but I'll tell you what, he learned a few things that day:

1. My word is a promise.  I wasn't going to make a threat I wouldn't carry out.
2. That work first, play after is an important part of life balance.
3. Schedule changes affect others.  And nobody has to accept a schedule change for a wrong reason.  Our lives go on.

It wasn't set up to be mean or a punishment or something to hold over him.  It was "we need to leave at x time and we will leave at x time no matter what." 

 

I guess the difference between you and me is that I wouldn’t have made the threat at all. 

How old was he when this happened?

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Just now, Catwoman said:

 

I guess the difference between you and me is that I wouldn’t have made the threat at all. 

How old was he when this happened?

Well, it wasn't a threat in the end, was it?  We had somewhere to be.  I was not going to depend on whether he was interested in going or not.  That's not how I parent.  There are times my children must do things.  We are not going to be late, or not go at all, or spend our time cajoling and begging.  I don't parent by letting my child decide how the day will go for the rest of the family.  And frankly, all the lessons he learned were valuable and help him to adult better.

He was late elementary.  Certainly old enough to tell time and understand the need for a schedule.

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14 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Well, it wasn't a threat in the end, was it?  We had somewhere to be.  I was not going to depend on whether he was interested in going or not.  That's not how I parent.  There are times my children must do things.  We are not going to be late, or not go at all, or spend our time cajoling and begging.  I don't parent by letting my child decide how the day will go for the rest of the family.  And frankly, all the lessons he learned were valuable and help him to adult better.

He was late elementary.  Certainly old enough to tell time and understand the need for a schedule.

 

When you said you had, “picked him up” and “plopped him in the car,” I was thinking he was a lot younger than late elementary age. I don’t think it would have ever even occurred to me to pick up a 9 or 10yo and “plop” him in the car unless there was some sort of dire emergency. Co-op wouldn’t have qualified as being that important! 😉

You are much stricter than I am, and I never suggested that any parent should spend their time “cajoling and begging” their child to do things, but I do agree with you that there are times when you can’t be late. We just have different parenting styles, I guess! 🙂

I’m sorry if I offended you. I can see that my posts probably came across a lot snippier than they sounded in my head when I typed them!

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4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

When you said you had, “picked him up” and “plopped him in the car,” I was thinking he was a lot younger than late elementary age. I don’t think it would have ever even occurred to me to pick up a 9 or 10yo and “plop” him in the car unless there was some sort of dire emergency. Co-op wouldn’t have qualified as being that important! 😉

You are much stricter than I am, and I never suggested that any parent should spend their time “cajoling and begging” their child to do things, but I do agree with you that there are times when you can’t be late. We just have different parenting styles, I guess! 🙂

I’m sorry if I offended you. I can see that my posts probably came across a lot snippier than they sounded in my head when I typed them!


Trust me, nothing is ever done in my house without intention and the idea to help my kids grow into adulthood.  I think you immediately put me on the offensive, though, with this language:

I have heard people mention that in the past, and it sounds so mean and punitive. I can’t imagine ever doing anything like that to a child. What kind of parent would ever intentionally embarrass and humiliate their child like that? I can imagine a kid having lifelong resentment toward a parent who would subject them to ridicule at school just to teach them some sort of awful “natural consequences” for not getting ready on time. Certainly there are other, kinder ways to teach a kid that it’s important to get to school on time. And the idea that this would be something a parent would do to an elementary school child absolutely sickens me. It would be wrong at any age, but elementary school children are still little kids!


---
I felt I needed to clarify so many statements that were clearly not coming from the same perspective.

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2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

Does anyone actually do the “send the kid to school in their PJs” thing?

I have heard people mention that in the past, and it sounds so mean and punitive. I can’t imagine ever doing anything like that to a child. What kind of parent would ever intentionally embarrass and humiliate their child like that? I can imagine a kid having lifelong resentment toward a parent who would subject them to ridicule at school just to teach them some sort of awful “natural consequences” for not getting ready on time. Certainly there are other, kinder ways to teach a kid that it’s important to get to school on time. And the idea that this would be something a parent would do to an elementary school child absolutely sickens me. It would be wrong at any age, but elementary school children are still little kids!

Honestly, my oldest daughter who was my only one to go to public school, wouldn't have found it embarrassing at all.  She regularly wore pajama pants to school on her own.  it was definitely a thing, especially in high school, especially for cheerleaders (of which she was one).    But, I was more likely to be the parent who ran forgotten homework/lunch/sneakers/etc. up to the school than the one giving ultimatums.  

As for a 14 year old getting themselves up - I think everyone else pretty much covered the whole kids are different and it may just be super difficult for her.   I know when I had trouble getting up for school in the morning, and was dragging all day it turns out I was super anemic and wound up in the hospital for two weeks.  

My kids do get up in the morning, usually around 8am if they get to stay home, or 7:30am if they are coming to the science center with me.   I leave around 8am and all they need to do is get dressed, brush teeth and go.    I've always given them time to get started slowly in the morning (I need that too!).  I never expected school or chores or anything except the most basic functions (grab a drink and read on the couch) when first waking up.   Trying to get them to do chores first thing wouldn't be worth the hassle to me.   

I know you said if chores aren't done first thing they don't get done but if you're having to put that much energy into the morning, have you tried switching it?  Maybe at first you'd still have to put a lot of energy in, but it may end up better in the long run, especially for this particular child.  Unless you are one of those super energetic in the morning people and want them all to be right there with you?

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1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:


Trust me, nothing is ever done in my house without intention and the idea to help my kids grow into adulthood.  I think you immediately put me on the offensive, though, with this language:

I have heard people mention that in the past, and it sounds so mean and punitive. I can’t imagine ever doing anything like that to a child. What kind of parent would ever intentionally embarrass and humiliate their child like that? I can imagine a kid having lifelong resentment toward a parent who would subject them to ridicule at school just to teach them some sort of awful “natural consequences” for not getting ready on time. Certainly there are other, kinder ways to teach a kid that it’s important to get to school on time. And the idea that this would be something a parent would do to an elementary school child absolutely sickens me. It would be wrong at any age, but elementary school children are still little kids!


---
I felt I needed to clarify so many statements that were clearly not coming from the same perspective.

 

I can definitely see why my post put you on the offensive, and while this is obviously something I feel pretty strongly about, I absolutely could have been a lot more diplomatic in my phrasing.  I should have stopped and re-read my post before I clicked on the Submit button!

I always find this forum interesting because the parenting styles are so different from those that I encounter in my daily life. Many of the people here seem quite strict and regimented, while the parents I know tend to be much less authoritarian. 

Anyway, I’m going back up to that earlier post that you quoted so I can add a line at the beginning to apologize for being an insensitive jerk! I won’t delete it because I posted it, so I need to own it!

Edited by Catwoman
Added the last part at the end
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6 hours ago, caedmyn said:

She could actually sleep til 8 if she’d get up and get moving.  She’s capable of getting ready, taking care of the cat, and doing her chore in 30 minutes, and she occasionally does.  But she prefers to lay in bed for 20 mins after waking up, daydream while getting dressed, putter around in her room, etc and so she has to get up a lot earlier if she wants to have time for a very slow start to the morning.

The slow rise is normal to ADHD. There are gamma and beta brain waves, and the sleepy waves (I forget which ones) are higher in ADHD. Then when the person goes to sleep, they get even higher, so the person can be really in the hole and have a hard time coming out. Meds can change that. So my dd got up better in the morning when she started ADHD meds at 16. But if no meds, it might not be so much an act of willpower as what her brain is doing.

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Exactly half of my family requires an extra hour for a slow ramp-up to the day. I've seen this in a child, a college student, and a 50yo who has a very physically demanding job. If 50yo plans to leave the house at 5:30am, which is typical, he will get up at 4:15 so he can do his whole routine. Leisurely coffee and breakfast, a few chores, sit with the cat and read the news, a quick shower, pack up and tools and head out the door. He's going to be "on" physically for the next 8 to 12 hours, and then come home to the family melee, so it's not unreasonable that he wants that quiet personal time to start the day.

For children and college students, I "allow" the slow start, and I also meet them halfway by only requiring that they take care of their own needs and routine in the morning. Family contribution comes later in the day. I'd far rather have a child or a young person who can get properly oriented, handle all their responsibilities of hygiene and meals, clean up after themselves, and leave on time for work or school, then to insist that their non-personal chores be done at exactly that part of the day. 

I'm not talking about lolling in bed all day, or dawdling until 10am. We have some discipline in this house, because my teens are used to rigorous academics, outside jobs, and lots of activities. They can't be dawdlers. But we accommodate those who need more or less sleep, or more or less time to get going in the mornings. For my family, whatever one had to do between 9pm and 7:15am, to be ready to face the world at 7:30, becomes their individual business at some point during the teen years.

I had one kid who worked a closing fast food shift, went to sleep at 1:30am and got up at 7:05, to leave the house at 7:20. That was enough sleep for him, and he thrived on keeping very busy. I had another who needed 8-9 hours of sleep, up through his first year of college. He felt like the only college kid on the planet going to bed at 10pm, but he had to, if he wanted to get up for exercise at 6 and be in class by 8. Whatever! Homeschooled teens have an advantage in that they can do some trial and error, to figure out their sleep and energy rhythms. The point is to become a productive and capable, well-adjusted adult, however the actual "shifts" work out - for sleep, work, school, exercise, social times.

If a 14yo goes to bed (to rest and sleep, not just to hole up and play on the phone or whatever) at 9:30, she could get up at 7 but not be required to join the family and start the day until 8 or even 8:30. At which point, ideally she should be fed, washed, and dressed, with her bed made and any other personal chores done, and be ready to get started on the day's routine. 

Addendum 1: It's probably not realistic for a slow-moving 14yo to be Mom's right hand man in the morning routine, helping to get younger kids washed, dressed, or fed, or cooking the family breakfast. I have seen this SO much with homeschoolers. Some girls are not cut out for this! Not that they shouldn't help, but their needs should be considered, too. If they do better with a slow roll in the morning, and being allowed to just take care of themselves until a certain hour, that should be permitted. Maybe if they are genuinely needed for this type of family contribution, they could help with dinner and bath time. Or cook two meals per week, or clean the kitchen and bathroom on Saturday morning, I don't know. If a girl was the Junior Mom type who felt unfazed by jumping up to tend the family at 14, you'd already know that. If she happily did it at 10 or 11, but can't or won't do it now, you have to realize that teens' rhythms and needs change.

Addendum 2: This has been a long post but I just want to add that it's normal to have to holler at your 14yo to get out of bed, and to have to move between the kitchen, bathrooms, and bedrooms of the house, "encouraging" (however you do it) everyone to get a move on, when you have a houseful of kids. Give those who need more personal space an earlier wakeup time before forcing them into the household chaos. But you shouldn't be surprised that you have to manage your kids in the morning, and the kids shouldn't be surprised to BE managed. They shouldn't be surprised that there are expectations for them (mood, behavior, completing the routine) but you shouldn't be surprised that you do more work than anyone. You're the Mom. You care the most, you're teaching people, you're modeling and assisting...this is how you work yourself out of a job. It'll happen eventually that you won't have to tell people to wake up, dress themselves, shower, eat, or rinse their dishes. You're training the family for their coming independent days, right now. 

*Not everything here is for the OP. I didn't read every single post, and I frequently mix up posters these days, and I'm not making assumptions about the OP's family. Just addressing the large homeschool family logistics of the morning routine.

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When we were homeschooling and I had teens, I didn't set times for them to get up unless we had places to go. 

Honestly, once they had to get up for school, it wasn't an issue.  They got up on their own and got ready and got to school on time, even though I hadn't made a big deal about it in the past. 

But if I don't have anywhere to be or places to go, I tend to be lazier in the morning too, even if I have things to do around the house.

I personally wouldn't make a big deal about it unless she is keeping you from getting somewhere on time.

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19 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I guess the difference between you and me is that I wouldn’t have made the threat at all. 

How old was he when this happened?

I agree about not making the threat to begin with. It is a different parenting mindset. 

I also don't (or try not to) think of parenting as "do XYZ, get ABC child" especially when you have outside the norm children.

I've told this story before here...a friend has 3 kids. She gave them (I think) 3 "I forgot my <item> passes" per year. So paper, homework, lunch,.sports equipment. 

Two of the 3 kids used it successfully...they almost never used them on lunch or sports stuff and saved them for homework or major papers.

The other kid couldn't get through the first 2 weeks under a system like that. So since my friend's parenting mindset was that these 3 passes were to help them with being self-sufficient and resourceful, she came up with other ways to teach that to this kid. It was not meant as a punitive system.

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23 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I can definitely see why my post put you on the offensive, and while this is obviously something I feel pretty strongly about, I absolutely could have been a lot more diplomatic in my phrasing.  I should have stopped and re-read my post before I clicked on the Submit button!

I always find this forum interesting because the parenting styles are so different from those that I encounter in my daily life. Many of the people here seem quite strict and regimented, while the parents I know tend to be much less authoritarian. 

Anyway, I’m going back up to that earlier post that you quoted so I can add a line at the beginning to apologize for being an insensitive jerk! I won’t delete it because I posted it, so I need to own it!

I love you, Catwoman. 

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:12 AM, Pen said:

 

Im curious now too as to what chores the next closest sibling in age has, and what time the next closest sibling gets up!

The almost-11-year-old does about 10 minutes of vacuuming in the mornings + taking out the trash.  He gets up around 7 or 7:15.  All my kids except DD get themselves up, usually by 7:30 at the latest.  The 1 yo gets himself up around 5:30 in the morning (sigh).

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:33 AM, Farrar said:

There's just no way for a homeschooled teen that this would be something I would be willing to fight over. Studies all say it doesn't matter for the vast majority of kids when they go to sleep - teens' natural rhythms are to sleep later. When there's school, okay, drag them up. But when there isn't, why? Just to keep them on the same schedule as younger kids who have a totally different set of sleep needs? Just because it feels right to you or is unseemly to sleep past a certain hour that you've decided is the right time to get up? It just seems like control for the sake of control. Unless there's a time sensitive task or a schedule that's beyond your control, there's zero way I'd force a teen up at 7 am.

I do drag mine out at 9 and make them start school by 9:30 at the latest.

As for changing things... they did change the school times in one large district next to me and at many of the charters here for teens. It's worth pushing.

When she's not yet responsible enough to stay on top of her own schoolwork or her own chores, then she has to do things in a time frame that works for me, since I'm the one who has to ensure that these things actually get done.  I'm not willing to spend all afternoon, every afternoon reminding and checking on her to make sure she gets schoolwork and chores done, which is what happens when she doesn't get those things done in the morning.  So I don't think it's unreasonable to require her to do those things at the time when it's relatively easy for me to make sure they get done (which is at the same time as everyone else is doing those things).  And she does need to be ready by 8:30 because we do family subjects over breakfast, so she needs to be there for those.  Other families may find it reasonable to let teens operate on a different schedule than everyone else in the family, and that's fine.  But it doesn't work for my family.

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1 hour ago, caedmyn said:

When she's not yet responsible enough to stay on top of her own schoolwork or her own chores, then she has to do things in a time frame that works for me, since I'm the one who has to ensure that these things actually get done.  I'm not willing to spend all afternoon, every afternoon reminding and checking on her to make sure she gets schoolwork and chores done, which is what happens when she doesn't get those things done in the morning.  So I don't think it's unreasonable to require her to do those things at the time when it's relatively easy for me to make sure they get done (which is at the same time as everyone else is doing those things).  And she does need to be ready by 8:30 because we do family subjects over breakfast, so she needs to be there for those.  Other families may find it reasonable to let teens operate on a different schedule than everyone else in the family, and that's fine.  But it doesn't work for my family.

 

I hadn’t realized that you do family subjects together during breakfast. If your dd really needs to be a part of those, can you let her sleep in an extra 15-30 minutes and have her do her chores later in the day at a specific time? Feeding the cat only takes a minute, so she could do that right before breakfast, but maybe she could clean out the litter box at night instead of in the morning, and do whatever else you need her to do immediately after she finishes her schoolwork, so you wouldn’t have to chase after her and keep reminding her to do them?

Also, are all of the chores really necessary? Can you do some of them yourself?

Edited by Catwoman
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Mine get themselves up starting at 13.  It's one of their responsibilities, and around here if you want privileges like screen time and socializing, you have to get all of your responsibilities done properly by their deadlines: up and ready for school, civil attitude during the day, and chores immediately after school.  Mine has to have gotten up, groomed, fed herself, (I don't eat breakfast and my husband eats at 6am)  unloaded the dishwasher, and ready to start the day at 9am if we're going to be home. She decides what time the alarm goes off.  If we're leaving for classes (out the door at 8:30 on Tues. and out the door at 8:10 on Thurs.) she has to have all that done by then.  It really isn't asking a lot.

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On 10/10/2019 at 3:28 PM, caedmyn said:

All my kids except DD get themselves up, usually by 7:30 at the latest.

What the other kids can or can't do is irrelevant IMO.  If you need it done on your time schedule (as you have stated several times) then for this child you need to wake her up and check on her. 

I also am one that struggled with getting up in the morning -- no matter what time I went to bed.  I was a total zombie in the morning into my 30's  and getting up earlier was far worse for me (although I'm sure it appeared from outside that I was just dawdling around -- from inside I was still mostly asleep!)  Thankfully my Dad woke me up every morning in high school. On my own I just struggled (could sleep through walking across the room to turn the alarm off and just desperately threw clothes on and ran out the door many, many times) -- and fwiw  nothing that happened every day no matter how urgent (and chores would never have made my urgent list) could maintain a high drive to get up (i.e for special occasions I could do it -- but not every day).

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FWIW, I think now that, as a younger and less experienced parent,  I was too punitive with my first couple of children in a well-intentioned attempt to help them learn to be better functioning members of society. I see now that some behaviors that I considered undesirable were rooted in genuine learning difficulties (or differences) and just having brains that worked differently.

My opinion, yes, a 14 year old can get herself up. However, if it was important to me that she be up, I would take ownership over getting her awake and moving myself. Will getting herself up independently now make a difference in how capable she is at that task in her adult life? Honestly, probably won't impact that ability one way or the other 🙂 Some people are always late, tend to oversleep, and they have probably always been that way. 🙂

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  • 2 weeks later...

My 16-year-old will sleep through alarms. I was the same way as an adolescent. My father woke me up every day to go to school throughout high school, so I don't push it. My husband wakes him up at 6 AM as he's slow as molasses and I wake up 45 minutes later to prepare school lunches for him and my youngest daughter.

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Not a hill to die on, for me. I woke both my boys gently, with soft words, for as long as they lived at home. The one who was terrible at getting chores done is now organising his studies well at university, cooking for himself, and tidying up very well. I'm glad I waited for that maturity to come, however irritating it was at the time.

Enforcing a schedule that led to the possibility of having to teach an unfed child would be a punishment to the teacher, I would think.

Edited by Laura Corin
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Depends on the individual.

I was horrible about waking up in the morning.  I still am!  I always will be.

I agree with trying to create an incentive your kid really cares about.  Next, try multiple really loud alarms, and make sure she doesn't have anything fun to stay awake doing at night (take the phone etc).  If that doesn't work ... personally I would try to be understanding that it is really hard for some people to wake up.  Yes, she does need to learn how to do it, but it is not a character flaw.

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As I did with my older offspring (who are now adults, out in the world, functioning on their own) I take it upon myself to make sure my 14yodd is awake on time (I open the door, say a cheerful good morning, and turn on the light).  Everything beyond that is up to her (she goes to a b&m school).  She is sometimes already awake when I go in.  Other times, she is dead to the world, and she thanks me profusely because she slept through her alarm.  

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