Math Calculations take For.Ev.Er

[Garga]

My ds17 has slow processing speed. He's a 12th grader in Calculus this year.   The slow processing speed was diagnosed in the middle of last year.  So even though he's a senior, I haven't specifically targeted trying to help him with his slow processing speed until now.

I'm trying to find the balance between "the job will fill the time available" and "he has slow processing speed."  Let me explain:  If he knows he has a long time to devote to the calculus, then he tends to work veeery slow and barely make progress.  But at the same time, he actually does have slow processing speed and he barely makes progress. I can't always tell when he's slowing down because he knows he has the time, or when he's slowing down because of a real issue in his brain.

I don't want to discourage him and sing out, "Try to go faster!" to someone with an actual learning disability, but at the same time, I want to encourage him to make the best use of his time and go as fast as he can.  Not as fast as I can or anyone else can, but as fast as he can.

So, right at this moment he's doing a test review and the teacher gave them 17 review problems to work through.  It's supposed to be one day's work of work, so I'm expecting it to take him about 2.5 - 3 hours (my son always takes 2.5 -3 hours on Calc a day.)  But he's been working on these 17 problems for 6 hours.  Six.  Hours.  He started on Saturday and is working on them today trying to finish them up. And this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened.  It happened a lot last year with his math and physics classes.

Finally, I told him, "Remember when you took the SAT and you knew you had to work fast?  Remember how you knew that you had roughly x amount of time for each problem?  Put on your SAT hat and see if you can get the problems done in 10 minutes each.  Set a little timer and focus as hard as you can, as if you're taking the SAT." 

I have no idea if that was a horrible suggestion, or if it was exactly the right thing to get him into the right mindset. He's working on the last two problems now and we'll find out in the next few minutes if it helped.  And maybe it helped this time, but is that technique (putting on an SAT hat) something he can keep doing?  Or will that backfire somehow?

 

Does anyone have suggestions for how to help a calculus student with slow processing speed to work a little faster?  

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by Garga

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Garga said:

Finally, I told him, "Remember when you took the SAT and you knew you had to work fast?  Remember how you knew that you had roughly x amount of time for each problem?  Put on your SAT hat and see if you can get the problems done in 10 minutes each.  Set a little timer and focus as hard as you can, as if you're taking the SAT." 

I think that was compassionately put as a way of helping him pick up the clue phone.

Beyond that, have you thought about stimulant meds for the ADHD? They'll actually make a difference. Math was an area where it showed up a LOT for my dd. 

We've had some people go from single digit processing speed to mid-30s with metronome work. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by PeterPan

[Garga]

He's on stimulant meds and they do work very well, but they have limits when it comes to calculations.  Metronome work?  I'll look that up--thank you!

Edited October 7, 2019 by Garga

[kbutton]

Meds really do help.

Divide two hours (or whatever time it "should" take for someone who's not super fast) by the number of problems. Have the timer go off in those increments and have him see if he's even close to that time. If not, see if there is a reason.

Does he work efficiently in the sense that he has a pattern for how he calculates, how he writes his answers, how he sets up his problem, or is he doing everything the hard way?

Can he make himself some work templates for the various kinds of calculus problems and then use those to simplify problem set up? Example (it's algebra 2): https://www.scaffoldedmath.com/2015/07/algebra-2-quick-checks.html

I have a slower worker that has things stored and retrieved VERY eclectically due to ASD. Nothing helps but making the right connection enough times to change how things are stored and retrieved. He tends to be super efficient with non-schoolwork.

I have a slower worker that does EVERYTHING the hard way. I have to sit with him and do the same kind of problem multiple times to see what weirdness he's doing. Sometimes it's just that he's doing the same exact problem a DIFFERENT way every single time even if the directions aren't asking him to do it multiple ways. Ugh. We try to figure out what way he likes best, or at least have him identify when it's dumb to do it different (less efficient) vs. smart (more efficient) because of the specifics of that problem. This child tends to do things inefficiently no matter what he's doing, not just schoolwork.

Slow processing doesn't always mean that the thoughts are always going slow. Sometimes, the thoughts slow down, and then inattention sets in. Catching that can help keep the kid on track.

Learning to feel time passing helps too. Time things that seem fast (fun stuff) and things that seem slow (boring stuff) that have similar subtasks (reading for fun vs. reading history) using the same increment of time (five minutes, ten minutes, etc.), and then compare how it felt. You can do this with chores, music practice, math, reading, whatever.

I think trying to catch the brain going into idle is probably the most effective thing though, and then encouraging habit formation that makes things standardized vs. willy-nilly. It might be easier to start with something concrete like chores first. I assume he probably does this in other areas of life. 

Good luck. I have an adult and a child in the house who both go brain dead and could make a task take a thousand times longer than necessary. It's like it's soothing to the brain somehow to spin wheels and go nowhere (torture for my brain).

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Garga said:

Does anyone have suggestions for how to help a calculus student with slow processing speed to work a little faster?  

A couple of things.

My kid with 1st percentile processing speed (the older one) used to take forever to do math (and really anything involving output).  The evaluator who determined that his processing speed was at the 1st percentile told me that in real world terms, it meant that he took twice as long as an average person to do tasks like the ones on the test.  

He was taking way longer than twice as long.  More like four or five times on a good day.

What helped was going to a b&m school.  The first year, he tightened it up so that he could finish in double time (he had accommodations for that).  Then during the second year, he was able to take the ACT with time and a half (they wouldn't grant him double time) and finish.  Since that time, he has told me specifically that going to school is what did it.  Before that, he didn't see the point, and so he never learned how to pace himself properly.

If I was in your situation, I would sit in the same room with him while he works and prod him along as necessary.  

That said, I know that with my son, he was also bright enough to be able to figure out math from first principles.  So when he hadn't really learned it yet, this is what he was doing. 

[Garga]

6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Divide two hours (or whatever time it "should" take for someone who's not super fast) by the number of problems. Have the timer go off in those increments and have him see if he's even close to that time. If not, see if there is a reason.

That's a good idea.  I'll have to handle it carefully so he doesn't feel like he's failing.  If I can get him on board that this is a diagnosing technique and not a finger-pointing technique this could help him.

6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Does he work efficiently in the sense that he has a pattern for how he calculates, how he writes his answers, how he sets up his problem, or is he doing everything the hard way?

Can he make himself some work templates for the various kinds of calculus problems and then use those to simplify problem set up? Example (it's algebra 2): https://www.scaffoldedmath.com/2015/07/algebra-2-quick-checks.html

He'll have to assess this for himself as I've never taken Calc and have no idea what he's doing.  🙂  But maybe if I point it out to him, it'll get him thinking of ways to streamline things even if I can't really jump in and point out how he could streamline calc.  My dh hasn't taken calc in about 30 years and barely remembers it, so ds is on his own.

6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Slow processing doesn't always mean that the thoughts are always going slow. Sometimes, the thoughts slow down, and then inattention sets in. Catching that can help keep the kid on track.

I suspect this might be happening as well, but it's been hard to catch.  However, with the idea above to set small timers for each problem, that could start to nab this.  If he can focus for only 10 minutes at a time, instead of 50 (he takes 10 minute breaks every 50 minutes), then perhaps he can stay on task better.  He'll know that in 10 minutes he'll have a sort of mental break, even if it's just for a few seconds.

6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Learning to feel time passing helps too. Time things that seem fast (fun stuff) and things that seem slow (boring stuff) that have similar subtasks (reading for fun vs. reading history) using the same increment of time (five minutes, ten minutes, etc.), and then compare how it felt. You can do this with chores, music practice, math, reading, whatever.

I think trying to catch the brain going into idle is probably the most effective thing though, and then encouraging habit formation that makes things standardized vs. willy-nilly. It might be easier to start with something concrete like chores first. I assume he probably does this in other areas of life. 

Yes--I can see us doing the above and it might be insightful.

6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Good luck. I have an adult and a child in the house who both go brain dead and could make a task take a thousand times longer than necessary. It's like it's soothing to the brain somehow to spin wheels and go nowhere (torture for my brain).

It's torture for me to watch him!  I feel so stressed!  Today I helped him get going on a writing assignment and watched him sit there for minutes doing nothing.  I had told him the first sentence to write, "In my family, I am the oldest of two boys."  I gave him the exact words.  And he just sat there... I had to step in and say, "Son, literally...just type what I told you to write."  And he slowly raised his hands to the keyboard....  

I happen to be a bit frantic when I'm getting things done, dashing all around.  It's really hard to watch because it's frustrating to me, but also my heart breaks seeing him sit there All Day Long. He has little free time.

[Garga]

28 minutes ago, EKS said:

A couple of things.

My kid with 1st percentile processing speed (the older one) used to take forever to do math (and really anything involving output).  The evaluator who determined that his processing speed was at the 1st percentile told me that in real world terms, it meant that he took twice as long as an average person to do tasks like the ones on the test.  

He was taking way longer than twice as long.  More like four or five times on a good day.

What helped was going to a b&m school.  The first year, he tightened it up so that he could finish in double time (he had accommodations for that).  Then during the second year, he was able to take the ACT with time and a half (they wouldn't grant him double time) and finish.  Since that time, he has told me specifically that going to school is what did it.  Before that, he didn't see the point, and so he never learned how to pace himself properly.

If I was in your situation, I would sit in the same room with him while he works and prod him along as necessary.  

That said, I know that with my son, he was also bright enough to be able to figure out math from first principles.  So when he hadn't really learned it yet, this is what he was doing. 

Yup--1st percentile kid here, too.  And yes, he often takes 4 or 5 times longer than expected.  I'm excited and pleased with it's just double time.  Actually, he's usually double to triple most of the time, but when it's a test, then he's 4 or 5 times longer.  He's anxious about the tests and goes extra slowly.  Poor kid!

 

A friend of his was slow as well and went to B&M for a year and learned how to speed up.  I asked his mom how he did it and he wasn't sure.  He just saw all the other kids moving so much faster than him and he started to match their pace.  I think my son sorta thinks, "Well, mom is fast, but she's just nutty mom."

He's too quirky to dump into school this last year.  He'd sink socially.  It'll be the community college next year and I hope (crossed fingers) that that goes well for him.  He's in a cyberschool right now for his last year (long story, but it's been a great decision for us--our first year of me not-homeschooling.)  But since it's a cyberschool, he can't see the other kids. 

 

Just today, I have been sitting with him and prodding a lot.  I'm going to keep that up for a while.  Perhaps with me sitting there prodding, and with us breaking down the work into small bits of time and getting a sense for how much time is going by...perhaps he'll start to streamline a little more and stay on task mentally.

 

Poor kid.  I just want him to succeed without things taking him So Long.  So Long.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Garga

[kbutton]

I think this might've come up elsewhere, but are you sure his ADHD meds are optimal? 

We finally have someone that might be able to Bal-a-vis-x with my son--she's getting special training. I think that could help your son too. I am not coordinated enough, but plenty of people take the idea at home and run with it. I think playing an instrument has bumped my son's processing speed quite a lot, and any kind of multi-sensory, rhythmic multi-tasking seems to keep these kids "moving." We hired a guy to paint once, and he listened to fast-paced music on his radio. He said if he didn't, he tended to just slow down like a wind-up clock that is near the end of the wind! It made me think there is hope.

It's so frustrating to watch the stop.start.stop.start nature of it, but you're not alone. I have a relative that is slow, but she's steady and generally does things in a way that makes sense. It's so much more sustainable, lol! She is from a generation where people had a lot of small chores that had to be done by hand, and I think that kept her humming along, just at her own pace. 

[Storygirl]

I have a son with a 1st percentile processing speed, too. Actually, amazingly enough, it is 7th percentile now!! It's gotten better since three years ago!! I had a little mental cheering session in my brain when we got those updated scores. DS15 is not as slow as molasses, though. His issues show up differently, but he has a combo of different diagnoses.

Two things. First, we did nothing to help DS15's processing speed. But he's a drummer. So I agree with trying metronome work or a musical instrument. It won't magically make it better, and it may have no effect, but it's worth a try (if he can find the time, of course).

Secondly, have you asked for accommodations in this class? Is he understanding the material and getting the problems correct? If the teacher would agree that he can do half or 2/3 of the problems, as long as he shows proficiency, that is an acceptable IEP accommodation (I know he does not have an IEP,  but shortening assignments is something that can happen in a brick and mortar school).

In the same vein, provide him with a sheet of formulas that he can refer to, so that he doesn't have to take the time to remember them.

I would definitely share with the teacher that "one day's work" took him 17 hours, so that she can appreciate the level of challenge.

And one more thing. Next year, when he is taking classes at community college, consider having him go part time. Because a part-time class load will be a full-time volume of work for him.

 

[Storygirl]

Also, kudos to your son for sticking with it!!

I know it's really frustrating for both of you, but the fact that he has not given up is a major deal.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

are you sure his ADHD meds are optimal? 

It's a question, but I'll also say that it blows my mind when people talk about being in the 30s as going UP for their kids. My dd went from 30s to whatever it is on meds and is STILL in disability land. So knowing what 30s is like on her and knowing that that was UP for some people, I just think sometimes what you can get to sucks. Like it still sucks. In a life-altering sort of way cuz everything is going to have to work around that.

Heathermomster has posted metronome homework and we've had *two* people post of scores going from single digits to 30s with metronome work. Other than that, it may be in the sucks category, even with the best you can do. 

[Garga]

12 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I have a son with a 1st percentile processing speed, too. Actually, amazingly enough, it is 7th percentile now!! It's gotten better since three years ago!! I had a little mental cheering session in my brain when we got those updated scores. DS15 is not as slow as molasses, though. His issues show up differently, but he has a combo of different diagnoses.

Two things. First, we did nothing to help DS15's processing speed. But he's a drummer. So I agree with trying metronome work or a musical instrument. It won't magically make it better, and it may have no effect, but it's worth a try (if he can find the time, of course).

Secondly, have you asked for accommodations in this class? Is he understanding the material and getting the problems correct? If the teacher would agree that he can do half or 2/3 of the problems, as long as he shows proficiency, that is an acceptable IEP accommodation (I know he does not have an IEP,  but shortening assignments is something that can happen in a brick and mortar school).

In the same vein, provide him with a sheet of formulas that he can refer to, so that he doesn't have to take the time to remember them.

I would definitely share with the teacher that "one day's work" took him 17 hours, so that she can appreciate the level of challenge.

And one more thing. Next year, when he is taking classes at community college, consider having him go part time. Because a part-time class load will be a full-time volume of work for him.

 

That’s a great idea to tell the teacher.  I’ve been homeschooling alone for so long that I forget that these teachers have seen this probably a bunch of times before and might already know how to accommodate.  

My dh and I have discussed with our son that he will probably need to take a part time load for his CC classes.  My husband works at the CC, so my son’s education there is free, so it kinda doesn’t matter if he takes a bunch of extra time to get his work done financially. And since it’s CC, it’s not like we have to pay for him to live on campus or anything, so spreading it out over an extra year is fine.  There’s really no reason to push him to go faster at the CC.  He’s already young for his grade, being as his birthday is practically on the cut off date for his grade.  I probably should have red-shirted him waaaaay back at the beginning.  

 

12 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Also, kudos to your son for sticking with it!!

I know it's really frustrating for both of you, but the fact that he has not given up is a major deal.

I’m going to remind him that he’s doing amazing for not giving up!

[prairiewindmomma]

This sounds like us last year. We tweaked meds. It didn’t resolve everything, but it helped. We also set a timer for every 30 min and made sure he was up hourly (switching loads of laundry, emptying the dishwasher, etc). He has NO concept of time and he was letting his mind wander too much.

Ds is at cc for math this year. It has gone amazingly well. 

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, Garga said:

My dh and I have discussed with our son that he will probably need to take a part time load for his CC classes.

Should be in his paper trail if he had psych evals. Dd's psych said to do 14 hours, which is kinda weird when most classes are 3cr. She did 15-ish and was constantly sick, like on antibiotics multiple times in a semester, so we compelled her to go down to 12. Then she started a new medication and we thought she might be enough more resilient to handle 15 (one more class), which is what she's now doing. She hasn't been sick yet, but she's constantly BUSY. 

So yes, definitely pull him down to whatever works for him. And if he has things he likes to do, make time for those. My dd also needs time OFF. Like it's tempting to go ok do summers, but nope she really really has to have time off. 

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, Garga said:

He’s already young for his grade, being as his birthday is practically on the cut off date for his grade.  I probably should have red-shirted him waaaaay back at the beginning.  

Oh dear. So the extra time will be good for him. He could DE and do a 5th year, or just take longer. 

I wanted my dd to do a 5th year, and she would have none of it. She came back after her first year and was like NOW I get it. There's just a lot of maturing still happening, a lot of competence and getting their acts together. A year may make a big difference on him, even if he's very smart., which it sounds like he is!

[Garga]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Oh dear. So the extra time will be good for him. He could DE and do a 5th year, or just take longer. 

I wanted my dd to do a 5th year, and she would have none of it. She came back after her first year and was like NOW I get it. There's just a lot of maturing still happening, a lot of competence and getting their acts together. A year may make a big difference on him, even if he's very smart., which it sounds like he is!

My dh keeps saying this, “Remember that he’s already young for his grade and with the ADHD, he’s even ‘younger.’ Things can change a lot in the next couple of years.”  

 

We were getting caught up on Calculus and then he got back some feedback on his work from Saturday that 6 of the problems he did needed to be reviewed. Oh no!  Whenever he has to correct work, it takes him so long!  We didn’t have time for him to be correcting work!  And yet...he had to correct it before the test he was going to take today, so that he didn’t do things wrong on the test.  

I was frustrated with the setback.   It took him about 1.5 hours to review those 6 problems and correct them and turn them in (remember—it’s a cyberschool, so things are sent back and forth on the computer.). But, in order not to fall behind even more than he is, he needed to do the 25 question test today.  We’re running out of wiggle room on due dates.  The cyber school has a lot of wiggle room for the 504 kids, but there are limits.  I about fell over when I realized the test was 25 questions, because it took him those 5 or so hours (or however much it was—it’s all starting to blur) on Saturday to do 17 practice questions.  

So, I sat him down and I told him the things on this thread:  that yes, it’s a good idea to give himself some time limits for each problem to keep himself on task.  I told him that with his slow processing speed plus the ADHD, that if his brain takes a little longer to retrieve or store something away that he ends up getting bored while his mind is doing that and then his attention wanders: that it’s not always the slow processing speed alone that is the problem, but the distractibility while things are slow.  He looked very thoughtful and nodded to himself.  I think he realized the truth in that.

And so we glanced over the test problems and I asked him, “Are all of these long calculation problems or are any ones you can do fast?”  (I know nothing about Calculus.)  He said that a few were calculations but that some were fast answer questions.  I told him, “Ok then...let’s shoot for 2 hours.  Let’s see if you can get all of them done in 2 hours,” and we figured about how long each should take.  I told him to pause for a few moments between each question to regroup and refocus.  I told him to be aware that his mind might try to wander and he’d need to bring it back in.  

And he did it!  He stayed on task!  He focused!  He took only 2 hours for 25 questions!  So he took a total of 3.5 hours on Calculus today, but he actually accomplished a lot (for him) in that time!

The computer can automatically score some of the problems, but others the teacher has to check your work.  So, he already has a 77 on the test and when the teacher scores the rest, I know he’ll at least have a B on the test.  He prefers to get A’s but I told him that as long as he gets a B overall in the class, I’ll be a happy clam and he ought to be proud of a B.  He has an A so far in the class for all his homework and little quizzes, but the test is worth a lot.  But I know it won’t be less than a B, so I am SO PROUD of him today.  He worked efficiently and maintained his accuracy!  He usually goes soooo slowly on tests because he worries about his accuracy.  I was a little worried that the 2 hour time limit I told him to shoot for would make him rush and he’d bomb the test.  I was soooo scared I was giving him bad advice and he’d be bummed at a low grade.  But it all worked out.  Shew!

 

Thank you guys for the tips and I’m going to keep researching more and implementing more things you have told me about.  And I’ll also ask the teacher if he has tips or can give him fewer problems as well.  

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Garga

[Garga]

7 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

This sounds like us last year. We tweaked meds. It didn’t resolve everything, but it helped. We also set a timer for every 30 min and made sure he was up hourly (switching loads of laundry, emptying the dishwasher, etc). He has NO concept of time and he was letting his mind wander too much.

Ds is at cc for math this year. It has gone amazingly well. 

Yes, he takes a break every hour, but then kind of flops down and stares at his phone because he’s feeling mentally fried.  I get it, but I also know that if he moves during his break, it’ll make him feel better overall.  I’m not sure I’ll get buy in for him doing dishes or laundry on his break 😄 (I can see the aggrieved look on his face), but I need to think of something for him to do that’s a little physical.   

We have a treadmill...so maybe I’ll tell him to walk up and down the street in good weather or to take a little walk on the treadmill in bad weather—just a couple of minutes to get the body moving during his breaks.  Logically he knows he needs to move, but in the moment, he just wants to flop down.  (I understand...the apple didn’t fall far from the tree in this area.)

Edited October 9, 2019 by Garga

[prairiewindmomma]

We can relate. 😬😂

[geodob]

The problem could be, that he doesn't trust himself?
Where he doubts the answer that he has arrived at, at each stage of a calculation.
So that he goes back and does it again.  Which can be repeating the last step, or starting back at the beginning.

Where the solution, is for him to come to trust that he has arrived at the correct answer, and doesn't need to do it again.

[Garga]

29 minutes ago, geodob said:

The problem could be, that he doesn't trust himself?
Where he doubts the answer that he has arrived at, at each stage of a calculation.
So that he goes back and does it again.  Which can be repeating the last step, or starting back at the beginning.

Where the solution, is for him to come to trust that he has arrived at the correct answer, and doesn't need to do it again.

I wonder.  That’s a good question. I’ll have to ask him how he does his calculations and see if any of that is going on.

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, Garga said:

We were getting caught up on Calculus and then he got back some feedback on his work from Saturday that 6 of the problems he did needed to be reviewed. Oh no!  Whenever he has to correct work, it takes him so long!  We didn’t have time for him to be correcting work!  And yet...he had to correct it before the test he was going to take today, so that he didn’t do things wrong on the test.  

So he needs a different calculus class. There are usually at least 3 levels of calculus in high school: AP, AB, BC. They are differentiated by the amount of material covered. So you need to pull him from the class that is assigning too much work too fast and drop him to a half pace class and still call it calculus.

I mean, you don't have to, but it's a legit option. There's no need to go forward with a class that is swamping him, when it can be modified.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, geodob said:

The problem could be, that he doesn't trust himself?
Where he doubts the answer that he has arrived at, at each stage of a calculation.
So that he goes back and does it again.  Which can be repeating the last step, or starting back at the beginning.

Where the solution, is for him to come to trust that he has arrived at the correct answer, and doesn't need to do it again.

Which sounds more like anxiety. An additional med. And cognitive strategies.

Also make sure his med isn't wearing off by the time he's doing his work. If he takes an XR ritalin type med it may only last 8-10 hours, which is almost all the time he spent on calc this weekend. So odds are he's doing his calculus when his meds have worn off. So booster dose or modify the course or change when you do the math. Vyvanse is more like 10-12 hours, very smooth. And even with that my dd is now using a 2nd med (Wellbutrin for anxiety) in the evenings which helps her attention a bit too, getting her through the rest of her very long college days. 

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, Garga said:

Yes, he takes a break every hour, but then kind of flops down and stares at his phone because he’s feeling mentally fried.

He IS mentally fried. And think about his untenable position. He's not allowed to drop or he's a quitter, not allowed to say it's too hard or he looks dumb. 

So yes, doing 6 hours of math is frying him. You're the mom and you can just pull the plug on it and say you know, you're so smart we want to let you do this math at half-pace with a tutor. Make a change. 

Or just look at the options and talk about them. He has to be actively involved in problem solving. But I think it's a very vulnerable age where they're willing to plow through even when they're hurting themselves. And it's literally that they're frying their brains trying so hard. Is it THAT important? And is the pace of the course THAT important?

[Garga]

44 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So he needs a different calculus class. There are usually at least 3 levels of calculus in high school: AP, AB, BC. They are differentiated by the amount of material covered. So you need to pull him from the class that is assigning too much work too fast and drop him to a half pace class and still call it calculus.

I mean, you don't have to, but it's a legit option. There's no need to go forward with a class that is swamping him, when it can be modified.

I agree with you—we already dropped down a class from AP Calc AB to Survey of Calc about 2 weeks ago.

41 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Which sounds more like anxiety. An additional med. And cognitive strategies.

Also make sure his med isn't wearing off by the time he's doing his work. If he takes an XR ritalin type med it may only last 8-10 hours, which is almost all the time he spent on calc this weekend. So odds are he's doing his calculus when his meds have worn off. So booster dose or modify the course or change when you do the math. Vyvanse is more like 10-12 hours, very smooth. And even with that my dd is now using a 2nd med (Wellbutrin for anxiety) in the evenings which helps her attention a bit too, getting her through the rest of her very long college days. 

Yes!  He has anxiety.  (You are pretty awesome at diagnosing and solving problems online!!!!). 

We are working on the anxiety with a therapist, and you’re right that we need to apply what he’s learning about anxiety to his math.  This is all pretty new to me (anxiety was recently dx’d), so I wasn’t thinking about specifically targeting anxiety+calc.  We’ve been working on anxiety in general.  He had been taking anti-anxiety meds but they made him feel exhausted all the time and in the end, the exhaustion was just as bad as the anxiety. He was like a little zombie from being tired (the meds messed with his sleep.). Lack of sleep causes lack of focus and more anxiety!  Grrr!  So, he made the decision to stop the meds and rely on coping techniques.  For the most part, it’s been working surprisingly well, but I can see where subtle things are slipping through—like being anxious about doing well in math.  

39 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

He IS mentally fried. And think about his untenable position. He's not allowed to drop or he's a quitter, not allowed to say it's too hard or he looks dumb. 

So yes, doing 6 hours of math is frying him. You're the mom and you can just pull the plug on it and say you know, you're so smart we want to let you do this math at half-pace with a tutor. Make a change. 

Or just look at the options and talk about them. He has to be actively involved in problem solving. But I think it's a very vulnerable age where they're willing to plow through even when they're hurting themselves. And it's literally that they're frying their brains trying so hard. Is it THAT important? And is the pace of the course THAT important?

Yes, I’ve wondered what to do about this.  Math is is favorite subject.  The only thing he can think to do with his future is “something with math.”  This is the one class that dropping would make him feel like an utter failure.  He was feeling very low when we dropped from AB to survey.  He has a strong faith and we had to talk through, “Does God think less of you because you dropped down a level in Calculus?  Not even close. Does anyone’s opinion really, really matter in this area other than God’s? Nope. What is life all about anyway—how far you get in math, or whether you’re kind, gentle, etc, etc.”. He literally had to rely on his faith to get him through feeling bummed about dropping down a math level.  So, we both need to think hard about this because math is something that he feels like he can be successful in, even though he’s slow at it.

And I’ve realized that if he’s spending more than 3 hours on math, he needs to stop.  Going forward from today, I’m not going to let him take longer than that.  He usually can get done a normal day’s lesson in 2.5 hours. Last Sat felt like a nightmare where you’re trying to run and can’t.  I needed to take charge of that and say, “Son, you need to move on.”  He must have been totally spinning his wheels, but it was Saturday and I wasn’t really paying attention to what he was doing all day until the end of the day.  

The immediate problem is that we started the cyberschool without knowing exactly what it would be like, and in the first three weeks of school, we were monkeying around with new adhd meds that were NOT working.  So he got behind right at the beginning.  This has been causing him a ton of stress.  He’s behind in all his classes (well...he just caught up on two of them yesterday.).  I’ve been helping him figure out how to get a little bit ahead every day to catch up.  He plans on working on Saturday to do the final catch up.  And by the end of Saturday, he’ll be caught up in all of his classes, he’ll be taking the ADHD meds that work, and he’ll know what it takes to keep up in the classes.  By Monday, unless something completely unexpected happens, he will be able to start fresh in this school year—all caught up and knowing how to maintain his workload.

He’ll still be slow on calculus and we still need to work on techniques so he’s not overly slow...but some of the stress and pressure will be removed because he won’t be feeling behind.  

This thread has been invaluable to me, so I hope I’m not coming across as, “None of your ideas work!” because that’s not how I feel.  I’m just chatting back with you about what’s been going on, and the advice I get from the hive is always very appreciated and carefully considered.  You’ve been spot-on in figuring out what’s going on with him and coming up with ideas to help.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Garga

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, Garga said:

He had been taking anti-anxiety meds but they made him feel exhausted all the time and in the end, the exhaustion was just as bad as the anxiety.

What med? We tried a pdoc with dd and I don't really have nice words for the guy. He tried to put dd on BENZODIAZAPENES, I kid you not!!! They're addictive, they cause cognitive decline. I mean, it was idiotic what this pdoc thought was a front line intervention. So I said fine, let me take you to my GP who is SANE AND CONSERVATIVE. He starts her on Wellbutrin, and the sky is blue, the roses are more red... And it has a bit of a bump to the dopamine too. He said some adults will drop stimulant meds and go only to wellbutrin. But for her, no way, haha. She does the stimulant med (Vyvanse, 12 hours) in the morning and the Wellbutrin in the evening to get her through the day. It's giving her more ability to be on task and get through her work. And the anxiety improvement is good too. And it doesn't have the risk that taking a short-acting stimulant med as a booster dose would have.

So I think try a new med, try a new doc. Do not stop with the first answers when the first answers are not working. Some kids' chemistry is significant enough that they're not going to be able to work through the anxiety with cognitive strategies. So they need the anxiety med, but it has to be the right one. 

5 minutes ago, Garga said:

(You are pretty awesome at diagnosing and solving problems online!!!!)

Hahaha. But we've kinda lived it so we can see it, lol. No seriously I'm terrible at this stuff. I mean, look how long it took me to get my dd good help. But I think too the pediatrician system isn't maybe set up to help our kids. My dd did the intake with the GP and he spent an HOUR with her. And she was finally ready to be treated like an adult and self-advocate too,kwim? there's a lot of that, where HE has to speak up and say this isn't acceptable. 

But if it's a ped and the appointments are short or it isn't the ped's specialty, maybe it's time to move on to family practice or a pdoc. Hugely different pricepoints there obviously. And pdoc is not necessarily better. It's more like who is the sane clear thinker who will listen and problem solve together and are you happy with the options and trying someone else if you're not happy. The answers were SO different (pdoc vs. GP) it was astonishing.

8 minutes ago, Garga said:

So, he made the decision to stop the meds and rely on coping techniques.

This is so good!! One, he self-advocated and said he wasn't willing to deal with the side-effects. Now he'd probably be happy to have a different med if it wouldn't give him the side effects,kwim? But within the options he had, he stood up for himself and self-advocated, which is HUGE. He has to take over and you WANT to see that. So score, good sign, good job on his part! (even if it is frustrating) And thing two, using the coping strategies is SO spot on. Like I tell my ds, we CANNOT MEDICATE AWAY EVERYTHING. If you did, you'd be a zombie. He's going to have to use his tools and his cognitive and make choices. So just that he's willing to engage with that is strong and a good sign.

I would just keep looking for better meds, more options, something he thinks makes sense. My dd has had counselors willing to talk chemistry with her, so she could understand what symptoms were coming from what and make better choices. Fwiw, the counselor who was best at that had worked under a pdoc. So that could be another thing to look for, a pdoc with counselors. And there are psychiatric nurse practitioners who might spend more time or be good at talking and problem solving. 

12 minutes ago, Garga said:

Yes, I’ve wondered what to do about this.  Math is is favorite subject.  The only thing he can think to do with his future is “something with math.”

So what are you doing to help him bust out of his rigidity and anxiety here? My dd's greatest thing, like what she's really wicked creative and cool at, is costuming. You know how SLOW she is? Is she even POSSIBLY a candidate to do that professionally when she's that slow? 

There are two sides to that coin, where some people find a way that their slowness is ok in their area and it works. And some people come to realize they have more skills they just hadn't seen yet.

So for my dd, I'm kinda just watching it. She's in her 3rd year, hopefully marching in another year, and she needs to do an internship. We're hoping that's where it comes together. Her advisor is suggesting she find a museum with a heavy costume department. So then she's using more of her strengths (humanities, making things happen, narrative, understanding people) along with the sewing/costuming, but she doesn't have the time element. And would I try to override if she wanted, really wanted, to go into costuming as a way to make money? I'm probably gonna let that ride out, give her my two cents, and let her learn the hard way! Ok, I'd give her more than two cents, lol. I'd be giving her a lot of structure and parameters and reality checks. Like this is what we'll provide, this is what we won't, this is how we gauge whether it's working, this is what you might do if it doesn't, etc.

So we're where you are in a way. Dd wanted to follow things that weren't really going to be her reasonable ways to earn an income. And that's not all bad, but it's also not very practical.

We had my dd do career testing with the STRONGS and whatever else, and it kicked out things we knew about her that she didn't realize about herself. It showed her interests were much broader than she realized (score!) and that she didn't actually want to work with her hands full-time as an occupation. So we concluded that going into a hands-on major (costume design) that would be a lot of tech (hands-on) without BALANCE to develop ALL parts of her abilities didn't make sense. So instead she's in a more generic major with philosophy and theatre and business and communication and graphic design and all kinds of stuff. It fits how eclectic she is. Which she didn't realize, because she had a very pigeon holed view of what she could do.

So you want a fab degree for a math lover? Accounting!!!!! Makes big bucks, a living wage, and you don't have to be the fastest guy on the block. I have a cousin who has a very low processing speed. He even TALKS S-L-O-W-L-Y. I kid you not. Like you have to just shut up and wait because if he speeds up he stutters and can't get it out. And his employers LOVE him. And accounting majors take calc for their exams, yes? 

So this is a good time to be doing career testing. There's also a really nifty book Do What You Are that I used with dd. It has them go through the Meyers Briggs personality testing and then connect that to careers and ways people work. It talks about people who work their passions and people who work a job and have hobbies with their passions and how to know what you should be doing. It was a GREAT book for dd, highly recommend.                                             Do What You Are: Discover the Perfect Career for You Through the Secrets of Personality Type                                     

23 minutes ago, Garga said:

He was feeling very low when we dropped from AB to survey.

Fwiw, you might also say you know, you're going to get there, just your processing speed is lower and you need more TIME. It's not smart/dumb, not that you can't, just that you need more time. And that's the main difference in those courses. 

Have we had a book on low processing speed? I think there is one that people have mentioned. My dd is pretty cool with herself, but in your ds' case maybe a book like that would help him too. He needs a way to see his mix and go ok I'm not FAST like the other person (who is equally smart the next desk over), but I'm a good mix and designed for a reason and have a place in the world and something to give and I just need to let it become obvious.

I know another astonishingly slow human being (even slower than my cousin, like sloth slow and I literally mean sloth) and that person does stuff with computer programming, IT. Again, doesn't have to be fast but more like thorough. Very smart, just very slow. He needed a field that benefited from that mix of slow, smart, thoroughness. And I think my accountant cousin is going to work for the IRS soon. Like no joke, the ultimate field that values nitpicky thoroughness. 

28 minutes ago, Garga said:

And I’ve realized that if he’s spending more than 3 hours on math, he needs to stop.  Going forward from today, I’m not going to let him take longer than that.

Where's the counselor saying this?? Even 3 hours is too much. Can he break it up and do one problem, take a break and eat, do another problem and take a break? Kids with ADHD don't like breaks because they feel like they lose their spot. But if he can compel himself to take breaks, it might help. Take a walk, play nintendo with a timer. He needs some strategies here. 

There's something called an educational therapist you could try to find. They're not so common, but if you found someone like that, or maybe a psych specializing in ADHD, you might diversify the help he's getting. Sometimes you max out one person and need to try the next. Sometimes people are complementary. My dd has gotten a lot of mileage working with people, partly because it pushes her own self-advocacy and problem solving by having to talk it through with them.

31 minutes ago, Garga said:

By Monday, unless something completely unexpected happens, he will be able to start fresh in this school year—all caught up and knowing how to maintain his workload.

If his brain is tired, he's not fresh. It's just something to watch for. 

Can you drop the cyber school for all but one class? Or drop it completely and hire a tutor? Obviously you're watching it and on it, but you want to triage hard here and have options. Once my dd is fried, she's fried. Like she'll need 1-2 weeks of constant sleep to catch up. So even when he looks caught up on paper, he may be really tired. And at that point, rather than plowing forward, you could drop the cyber school, hire tutors, finish out that way. Or whatever. You're on it. It's just something to watch for. 

So like I'm flying my dd home for Thanksgiving, and I don't expect to see her. I completely expect she will spend most of the week in bed. In the past years, I've seen her for 1-2 hours a day, then back to bed she goes. It's THAT TIRING for her. 

So maybe give him a lot of outs on this and options. I think it's really important he continue to do the calc, because it's a strength, because he enjoys it, but HOW he does it and the pace doesn't really matter.

[PeterPan]

38 minutes ago, Garga said:

This thread has been invaluable to me, so I hope I’m not coming across as, “None of your ideas work!” because that’s not how I feel.  I’m just chatting back with you about what’s been going on, and the advice I get from the hive is always very appreciated and carefully considered.  You’ve been spot-on in figuring out what’s going on with him and coming up with ideas to help.

You're doing great! You're doing exactly what it takes to triage and problem solve and figure it out. This is how he learns himself and how to self-advocate and what he needs. And better to learn NOW than to learn by getting overwhelmed in college, where the stakes and cost are higher. This is the time to be messing up and having problems, at home, with people to help him problem solve. 

Fwiw, I would not let him get in a position where cyber school grades don't reflect his skill. If he had been in longer, he would have had at least a 504. Have you filed with them for one? Mercy, that's something to BE GETTING DONE NOW. He's going to need accommodations for his next steps (college, whatever), so paper trail would be good. And they may have things they could do for him now. Extended time, blah blah. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by PeterPan

[Garga]

 @PeterPan  I don't have time to respond right now to your above posts, but I wanted to thank you for taking the time to write all that out!  I will be reading through it carefully when I have the chance.  (Real quick:  what's a pdoc?)

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Garga

[PeterPan]

pdoc=psychiatrist=MD who handles meds for mental health. They can do anxiety, ADHD, everything, both diagnosing and prescribing. A psychiatric nurse practitioner is another similar option, so a nurse practitioner who specializes in psychiatry. They can be an excellent care option.

Edited October 9, 2019 by PeterPan