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W&M vs UVA and Academic Engagement and Life Balance


Mom0012
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Does anyone here have a student at either of these schools that would be willing to share how academically engaged the students are? And not from the standpoint of grades, but how much they actually care about the learning process? And if they are happy and satisfied with their life outside of academics?

My dd is looking at both of these schools and is worried one will not have the academic engagement she wants and that the other will require her to spend all of her time on academics.

 We visited the University of Virginia recently, and my dd liked the school. She’s attended programs there over the summer, so she was already familiar with the campus, which is absolutely beautiful,  She has been wanting a smaller LAC, so she was surprised about how positive she felt about the school while we were visiting. She likes the energy of campus, and the school spirit, tradition and history. She likes that students are heavily engaged in activities outside of academics. At the end of the day, though, she sat in on a class, and was discouraged that she knew far more about the material and had more to add to the discussion than the students taking the class. In other words, the class was below the level of classes she’s already taken. She also found the students in that particular class fairly apathetic about the discussion. The hope is that it was just this particular class.

She is going to sit in on some classes at W&M and and I’m thinking that she may find the academic engagement she is looking for there, but she also doesn’t want to spend all her time studying and working on academics either. She wants deep engagement in the classes she is taking, but doesn’t want her whole life to be about academics. The W&M campus does not appeal to her as much as UVA’s, but it was pouring the day we were there before and that likely has impacted her perception of it.

We would love to get more of an inside scoop from anyone who is more familiar with these schools.

Edited by Mom0012
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I don't think you can tell a lot about a university from sitting in on a single class, especially if it was an intro level class with a lot of freshmen who might just be taking it as a GenEd. And even if it was a higher level class, you never know what might be contributing to the lethargy (half the class just bombed the first quiz and are bummed out, prof is not very engaging, there was a big campus event the night before and everyone is tired, etc.). DS had a few GenEd classes that were pretty lame, but his lower level Honors classes and all of his 300 & 400 level classes in his major have been challenging and the students were definitely engaged. There's no shortage of top students at both UVA and W&M, so I'm sure your DD could find her tribe at either one and I wouldn't let a single class visit put her off applying to UVA.

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Maybe not too relevant, but the best teacher I ever had in history had gone to William and Mary....she graduated 30 years ago but even then, she talked about how William and Mary trained her to think about the whole picture and view it from all angles.  One of her favorite topics to explain how history shouldn't be so cut and dry, is the Civil War and how slavery was only one piece of that complicated puzzle.  

Ok so not very relevant...but I felt like sharing

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I would think that if you dd wants to be academically engaged as well as engaged in college social/community activities she'll be able to do as much or as little as she wants. I doubt that there will ever be an entire college of students exactly like everything she thinks she wants in her mind right now, but there will always be students with similar interests in certain areas. And when she gets in there with a full-time course load, navigating student housing life, her vision and ambitions will change a little. Reality will set in pretty quick about what is actually possible.

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19 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I don't think you can tell a lot about a university from sitting in on a single class, especially if it was an intro level class with a lot of freshmen who might just be taking it as a GenEd. And even if it was a higher level class, you never know what might be contributing to the lethargy (half the class just bombed the first quiz and are bummed out, prof is not very engaging, there was a big campus event the night before and everyone is tired, etc.). DS had a few GenEd classes that were pretty lame, but his lower level Honors classes and all of his 300 & 400 level classes in his major have been challenging and the students were definitely engaged. There's no shortage of top students at both UVA and W&M, so I'm sure your DD could find her tribe at either one and I wouldn't let a single class visit put her off applying to UVA.

She’s definitely going to apply and we feel happy and fortunate to have this school as a viable option for her. This was a lower level class, so she is fully aware that it may just be because of that. There were no upper level Latin classes being held the day we were there (which is what she likes to sit in on). She has sat in on classes at quite a few schools at this point and the only one she’s found a level of engagement that has matched her own so far was Hillsdale, which we have pretty much eliminated for a number of reasons. But even that class, which was an upper level Latin class that she sat in on as a sophomore, was covering material she had already studied.

At one point, I had suggested to her that maybe she’s already had her college education in the classics and she might want to move on to something else.  I do wonder if this is part of the problem?

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1 minute ago, wintermom said:

I would think that if you dd wants to be academically engaged as well as engaged in college social/community activities she'll be able to do as much or as little as she wants. I doubt that there will ever be an entire college of students exactly like everything she thinks she wants in her mind right now, but there will always be students with similar interests in certain areas. And when she gets in there with a full-time course load, navigating student housing life, her vision and ambitions will change a little. Reality will set in pretty quick about what is actually possible.

Yes, I’ve given this same advice to others so I understand your point. She was pretty shocked that the students seemed so unable/unwilling to engage in any level of analysis because there are so many top students at the school. I did tell her that it may be that she will have to take responsibility herself for what she wants to learn. And that she may have to look at college as more of a means to an end. I think part of the issue is that she’s been completely spoiled by Ms. Turscak’s Great Books class at CLRC and the amazing students that are in that class with her. I suggested that maybe she should continue with that class even at college. And maybe she should.

All I can say is that I will be so happy when I know where she is going to college.

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At this stage, I wouldn't settle for that (moving on instead of expecting material which will challenge & excite her). This looking stage is about looking for the ideal along with the possible. When all the packages & acceptances are in is the time to face reality of what is possible.

Does she have anywhere on her list that has a masters/doctorate program in the classics? Because she might start at the 300 or 400 level in Latin & move into graduate level classes if the school allows it. I'd have that on a list to ask about if I was her. 

I agree on the "reality" front hitting once you are settled in. I will say that my kid found her sitting in on one class to be pretty representative of where she did end up going (in a positive way).

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5 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

At this stage, I wouldn't settle for that (moving on instead of expecting material which will challenge & excite her). This looking stage is about looking for the ideal along with the possible. When all the packages & acceptances are in is the time to face reality of what is possible.

Does she have anywhere on her list that has a masters/doctorate program in the classics? Because she might start at the 300 or 400 level in Latin & move into graduate level classes if the school allows it. I'd have that on a list to ask about if I was her. 

I agree on the "reality" front hitting once you are settled in. I will say that my kid found her sitting in on one class to be pretty representative of where she did end up going (in a positive way).

Yes, a number of the schools she is applying to have graduate programs in the classics, including UVA. And I am hoping that if she is accepted to UVA, we can get back for her to sit in on an upper level class just to alleviate her concerns. She said she knew that maybe she should feel happy that it seemed like college was going to be easy, but that’s not what she wants.

I do think she’s possibly going to find W&M more of an academic fit, but we will see. I honestly think she can be happy anywhere and UVA is a great school in so many ways. We are lucky to be in Virginia and to have these options available to us.

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39 minutes ago, Mom0012 said:

Yes, a number of the schools she is applying to have graduate programs in the classics, including UVA. And I am hoping that if she is accepted to UVA, we can get back for her to sit in on an upper level class just to alleviate her concerns. She said she knew that maybe she should feel happy that it seemed like college was going to be easy, but that’s not what she wants.

I do think she’s possibly going to find W&M more of an academic fit, but we will see. I honestly think she can be happy anywhere and UVA is a great school in so many ways. We are lucky to be in Virginia and to have these options available to us.

There are all kinds of ways to add challenge to one's education. For example, study topics that are related to interest area and will be helpful in the future, such as statistics, critical thinking and research methods. Study in a foreign language internationally. Work too many hours at a part-time job so you are swamped with course work. 😉 

 

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27 minutes ago, wintermom said:

There are all kinds of ways to add challenge to one's education. For example, study topics that are related to interest area and will be helpful in the future, such as statistics, critical thinking and research methods. Study in a foreign language internationally. Work too many hours at a part-time job so you are swamped with course work. 😉 

 

Yes, this is a kid who always challenges herself and I doubt that will change when she’s in college. There are lots of ways she can do that.

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2 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

Yes, I’ve given this same advice to others so I understand your point. She was pretty shocked that the students seemed so unable/unwilling to engage in any level of analysis because there are so many top students at the school. I did tell her that it may be that she will have to take responsibility herself for what she wants to learn. And that she may have to look at college as more of a means to an end. I think part of the issue is that she’s been completely spoiled by Ms. Turscak’s Great Books class at CLRC and the amazing students that are in that class with her. I suggested that maybe she should continue with that class even at college. And maybe she should.

All I can say is that I will be so happy when I know where she is going to college.

 

Does the school with the unengaged kids have an Honors program? They often get to take Honors only classes, have Honors first year seminar or something like that as well as other perks and social as well as academic events.

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9 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

 

Does the school with the unengaged kids have an Honors program? They often get to take Honors only classes, have Honors first year seminar or something like that as well as other perks and social as well as academic events.

They have a Scholars program that allows you to skip over the gen ed requirements. That was the first thing we looked up when we got home. You can’t apply for it, though. You are chosen for it. So, maybe she would be a candidate for that. I would think so, but who knows for sure. We are definitely going to hope for it, though.

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Just now, Mom0012 said:

They have a Scholars program that allows you to skip over the gen ed requirements. That was the first thing we looked up when we got home. You can’t apply for it, though. You are chosen for it. So, maybe she would be a candidate for that. I would think so, but who knows for sure. We are definitely going to hope for it, though.

 

The only problem with that is that sounds like she'd be jumping into a whole new life and taking super hard classes all at the same time.  A lot of kids on the PennState parents page are really struglling becuase they chose to skip over some GenEd's and move up a level or two in math.  Meanwhile they're figuring out where to eat, where to get water (sounds silly but my son had to figure that out!), where to shop, where everything is, taking tours, getting to know people, trying out different clubs, getting sick and taking care of themselves while sick for the first time (also where the health office is, pharmacy, etc.), then there are career fairs and college - specific events....

If you don't take any GenEd's and all you have is 300 level classes, well...that's pretty tough and not necessarily advisable.  

I may have misunderstood what the program is about but it sounds different than an Honors program, where they take allt he GenEds but with an "H" i n front and are with like minded kids, have an Honors building, group events, or smaller class sizes etc.

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Sometimes students who were top students in high school, are very burned out when they get to college, and it takes them a little while to get more engaged again.

I knew several students like this when I was in college, who had graduated from a very prestigious program, but they were exhausted their Freshman year.  

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17 minutes ago, Calming Tea said:

 

The only problem with that is that sounds like she'd be jumping into a whole new life and taking super hard classes all at the same time.  A lot of kids on the PennState parents page are really struglling becuase they chose to skip over some GenEd's and move up a level or two in math.  Meanwhile they're figuring out where to eat, where to get water (sounds silly but my son had to figure that out!), where to shop, where everything is, taking tours, getting to know people, trying out different clubs, getting sick and taking care of themselves while sick for the first time (also where the health office is, pharmacy, etc.), then there are career fairs and college - specific events....

If you don't take any GenEd's and all you have is 300 level classes, well...that's pretty tough and not necessarily advisable.  

I may have misunderstood what the program is about but it sounds different than an Honors program, where they take allt he GenEds but with an "H" i n front and are with like minded kids, have an Honors building, group events, or smaller class sizes etc.

 

16 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Sometimes students who were top students in high school, are very burned out when they get to college, and it takes them a little while to get more engaged again.

I knew several students like this when I was in college, who had graduated from a very prestigious program, but they were exhausted their Freshman year.  

CalmingTea, I agree with you about not overloading during freshman year. It is a time of big change without adding in a too heavy academic load. I encouraged my ds to only take 12 credits starting out and would encourage my dd to do the same so that she has time to develop friendships and figure out what she wants to get involved in. We will have to see what happens and what her options are in the end. One of the things she does not want in college is to be in a pressure cooker. We had originally decided not to look at W&M because of that and then changed our mind and decided to investigate it further. 

I know it will all work out, one way or the other. 🙂 We’re just trying to weed through her options and see where she feels the fit is best so we’re not scrambling to figure things out once she knows where she’s been accepted. We will definitely investigate further at that point.

 

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I think one of the really difficult things to determine as a home-school parent is where my children fit in on an academic scale. I have test scores to help me, but I am always left feeling that with only 2 students, I really can’t make comparisons. My ds was well above the 75th percentile with his ACT score at most of the schools he applied to and I was still really worried that he was going to struggle. And he hasn’t at all. His school has turned out to be a great fit for him. My dd is applying to a different level of colleges for the most part, but trying to get a grip on which ones are truly a good fit for her is a challenge for me. In the end, it is her decision. I’m just trying to make sure she has some good options and I do really feel as though she is starting to feel as though she does.

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It sounds like you are probably looking for a magical unicorn. Regardless of the hype to the contrary, 100 level humanities courses are pretty much similar from school to school. My Dd sat in on 100 and 200 level Russian classes at schools ranked  below 100 and schools in the top 30. The classes were very similar and even used the same text book. Students were not magically more engaged at the top  schools over the lower ranked schools. As a matter of fact, at one of the top schools, the students took every opportunity to talk to each other about a party they had been at the night before and were the least engaged classroom of any that she sat through. She was completely turned off by that classroom. (Afterward the professor told her that she seemed like a nice girl and that she probably should not attend there. 😞 )

Matching ability when they enter at a high level is not going to happen in entry level gen eds. She can try appealing to the dept to see if she can get approval for appropriate placement. My kids have been able to skip some classes with dept approval.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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My son took classes at the local LAC during high school. The program he was part of allowed him to take a half load per semester almost for free. At the time, he was surprised that students in general didn’t seem as engaged as he was in the classes and all of the extra outside academic opportunities offered, such as talks by visiting professors. He understood all of it much better once he was in college full time as a STEM major in an an honors college program where the majority of honors college requirements were reading, writing, and discussion intensive humanities courses. That heavy course load combined with adjusting to college life away from home made him understand the behavior of the full-time undergrads at the LAC much better. 

I think your daughter will be able to find her tribe and plenty of academic challenge at either of the schools under discussion. Taking graduate courses, choosing upper level courses to meet distribution requirements where possible, adding another completely unrelated major, taking 300 and 400 level courses outside the major, doing independent study with a professor, getting involved in research, studying abroad, etc. are all ways people I know have done this at a variety of schools. 

Edited by Frances
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Based solely on the enrollment numbers of both schools, UVa having a much larger student body, if I assume, which I try not to do, with regard to the "Life Balance" part of the thread title, probably offers more opportunities to find friends and to find activities of interest.

The Academic qualities the student is seeking probably require some meetings with Professors in that Department and possibly with the Department Head, to see how much, or, how little, interest they have in her. That's far more complicated because of her current level of knowledge.

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On 9/28/2019 at 8:55 AM, Calming Tea said:

The only problem with that is that sounds like she'd be jumping into a whole new life and taking super hard classes all at the same time.  A lot of kids on the PennState parents page are really struglling becuase they chose to skip over some GenEd's and move up a level or two in math.  Meanwhile they're figuring out where to eat, where to get water (sounds silly but my son had to figure that out!), where to shop, where everything is, taking tours, getting to know people, trying out different clubs, getting sick and taking care of themselves while sick for the first time (also where the health office is, pharmacy, etc.), then there are career fairs and college - specific events....

If you don't take any GenEd's and all you have is 300 level classes, well...that's pretty tough and not necessarily advisable.  

 

I think this may be more true for STEM majors than humanities majors. Intro level STEM classes are often much harder than students expect, even for those who had perfect grades and lots of APs in high school. It's just a hugely different workload, and I see a lot of the same things you mentioned on the parents page for DS's school as well (lots of freshmen freaking out about their calc/chem/physics/bio classes, with many regretting taking AP credit instead of retaking the classes).

But as a nonSTEM major, DS found the lower level GenEds far more time consuming, with a lot more piddly little assignments due every week, mandatory discussion posts, more software/apps/online stuff to figure out, etc. The academic level wasn't an issue, it was figuring out all the online stuff and staying on top of 3-4 assignments per week per class, for multiple GenEd classes, with each assignment due at a different time on a different day, that he found difficult to deal with. In contrast, his 300 & 400 level courses were more advanced and challenging in terms of content, but there were far fewer assignments, with the grade more dependent on exams and a research paper or final project (versus a million little PITA assignments), and the schedule and submission requirements were far more straightforward. 

Fall of freshman year he was seriously struggling to keep up with the sheer number of assignments and due dates, while this fall, as a sophomore, he only has one GenEd and the rest are 300 & 400 level courses in his major & minor, and he has had no trouble staying on top of the workload, even getting his assignments finished and submitted early (despite being ADD and a varsity athlete). 

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

My son took classes at the local LAC during high school. The program he was part of allowed him to take a half load per semester almost for free. At the time, he was surprised that students in general didn’t seem as engaged as he was in the classes and all of the extra outside academic opportunities offered, such as talks by visiting professors. He understood all of it much better once he was in college full time as a STEM major in an an honors college program where the majority of honors college requirements were reading, writing, and discussion intensive humanities courses. That heavy course load combined with adjusting to college life away from home made him understand the behavior of the full-time undergrads at the LAC much better. 

I think your daughter will be able to find her tribe and plenty of academic challenge at either of the schools under discussion. Taking graduate courses, choosing upper level courses to meet distribution requirements where possible, adding another completely unrelated major, taking 300 and 400 level courses outside the major, doing independent study with a professor, getting involved in research, studying abroad, etc. are all ways people I know have done this at a variety of schools. 

I definitely think she’ll find academic challenge. But, what she really wants is to be around other students who are academically engaged. Her two favorite classes, by far, over the years have both been with other students who inspired and motivated her with their own level of engagement and with the unique perspectives that they enthusiastically brought to the class. I guess she’s lucky to have experienced that twice in high school.

And I hope my post isn’t coming across as knocking the other students. I’m sure those students are doing what they need to succeed and many of them will go on and be very successful. A lot of people look at college as a means to an end and their focus is mainly on their grades. That’s definitely how I was in college and I have had a wonderful life. But since we’re applying to colleges for my dd, I’m trying to find the best fit for her. I’m thinking UVA and W&M are both great colleges, but offer very different things and trying to weed through which might be the better for her, assuming she even gets in.

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2 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

hmmm that may be a good point...I would think freshman genEds would be easier.  Are you sure it's not just because your ds is used to juggling everything now? 

The level of the material was easier, but the classes were much more work, and there was very little return on the investment of so much time and energy because the material was so basic. Fall of freshman year he had two 100-level GEs, each of which had 3-4 assignments every week, each due at a different time on a different day, and both of those classes involved learning/using several additional software programs or apps as well as the Canvas system. His upper division classes had, at most, 1 assignment per week, and sometimes the assignments were only every other week. So in a given week, he'd have 6-8 assignments just for the two GEs, and then just 2-3 for all of his other classes combined. The material for the upper level classes was more advanced, but also much more interesting and engaging, and the assignments were relevant and useful. 

Of course the situation might be very different at a LAC, or for a STEM major, but I just wanted to suggest that for a student like the OP's (a nonSTEM student potentially looking for challenge at a large uni like UVA), being able to skip the 100-level GEs and jump in with 300 level classes may not be such a bad idea. DS would have loved to be able to do that.

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On 9/27/2019 at 1:22 PM, Corraleno said:

I don't think you can tell a lot about a university from sitting in on a single class, especially if it was an intro level class with a lot of freshmen who might just be taking it as a GenEd. And even if it was a higher level class, you never know what might be contributing to the lethargy (half the class just bombed the first quiz and are bummed out, prof is not very engaging, there was a big campus event the night before and everyone is tired, etc.). DS had a few GenEd classes that were pretty lame, but his lower level Honors classes and all of his 300 & 400 level classes in his major have been challenging and the students were definitely engaged. There's no shortage of top students at both UVA and W&M, so I'm sure your DD could find her tribe at either one and I wouldn't let a single class visit put her off applying to UVA.

 

Sage advice, as always, from Corraleno, but I had to snicker at the part in bold. Pun intended? W & M Tribe? 

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