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2 hours ago, Lecka said:

I can definitely write something out where there are just blanks to fill in for the numbers we are using.  

That's what we do. We model it with c-rods and then write equations on a small whiteboard. More abstract would be draw the rods on the whiteboard, write the equations. And you'd fade that to see it in your mind, write the equations.

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I have thought about this some more -- and I do feel he needs to be able to explain with words, to some extent, so not just going between a model and the equation.  I think it's partly that, I don't think he is doing some great process in every way except that he's not using language.  I think what he says with language is representative of the clarity of his thinking, to some extent.  Not 100% but to some extent.  He's not somebody where it's all clicking except when it's time to translate to language.  

The other thing is he is in public school and ime they don't like it if he can't do it at all, they will want to stay and work on it.  

"Number talks" are really big right now and it's like -- he can't just not participate in them at all.  It's not something I feel I can just skip, because it is something that they want at school.  

And I think it is good, too.  

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I do think that right now, he has a good mental connection for the numbers, for where he is (in the first half of 3rd grade math).  

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14 minutes ago, Lecka said:

"Number talks" are really big right now and it's like -- he can't just not participate in them at all.  It's not something I feel I can just skip, because it is something that they want at school.  

Depends on what the cause is as to whether it's "fixable" or whether it needs an accommodation in the 504. You might notice *time* and see if processing speed matters. You might notice whether having the questions ahead of time (so he can pre-think) matters. You might notice whether his anxiety/stress/fatigue levels matter. 

He can know everything, but if he is struggling to get it out he might need accommodations. My dd uses in them in college, because some things don't fix. My dd has run into it with classes that require discussion. Sometimes the accommodation is enough and sometimes she finds a way to work around the class. 

Edited by PeterPan

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Well, the thing is, I don't want accommodation.  I want remediation of his language issues so he can actually do this.  I am okay with slowing down math for that to happen.  

He's already in a special autism classroom so -- accommodations out the wazoo are already happening lol.  

I do also think it's something that will ultimately hold him back in math.  

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I have just gotten burned too many times with thinking he could move forward and not have the language side keep up.  I really want to have a balance for him.  

Because -- he does have a history of low retention every time I have not done that, and it is happened enough I should be taking the hint at this point.  

I don't "like" It but I think it is where I am.  

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His low retention is like -- it is gone, it might as well have never happened.

It's not like -- oh, he seemed like he forgot it, but then he reviewed, and it came back pretty fast.  

Okay, sometimes it is like that, but that's not what I am talking about when I say low retention.  I'm talking about -- it's really gone.

Not like -- okay, you do a little review, and it's coming back.  

Edited by Lecka

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It's not something where accommodations *actually* help.  Accommodations *actually* help when kids *know what is going on.*  

They don't work the same when kids move forward without really mastering the material.  

I agree that when accommodations are working then that is the way to go.  

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Oh!  Sorry.  No, my younger DS.  

I have got my thoughts in order for when I talk to his teacher, lol.  I just requested a meeting and want to ask some things about his math.  

Edited by Lecka
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I’m Autistic and in the “can do Calculus but not arithmetic” camp.  Please please don’t make arithmetic your hill to die on.  Keep practicing it, sure, but hand the kid a calculator and keep moving forward.  I loved fractions, ratios, geometry, statistics, algebra... Still struggle with math facts.  

Google “Protractor Art.”  Maybe my favorite math thing ever.  Frank Stella makes my heart sing. 

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On 9/29/2019 at 6:59 AM, Lecka said:

I think too about her scores, when you say it’s lower than other scores, the actual score matters.  If her actual score is about 100 — that is really different than if her actual score is about 85.  2e is broader than this, but there are things written about 2e where a spread is like —100 to 130 — and that is different than if the lower number in the spread is getting a lot lower than 90-100. 

I don’t think you can go “too” much off of test scores, but it is something.

Also, I am pretty sure working memory is one where all kids improve with age, but stay within their percentile.  Sometimes you can look and see what average expectations are for working memory for an age, and then look at percentiles, and adjust to the age expectations that go to a percentile.  

A lot of times you can adjust a teaching method to be more supportive of working memory, while curriculum expects an average child with average working memory.  So then you can add in working memory supports.  

It also means things get easier with age 🙂

 

I don't recall actual scores, but we had a range of high scores (processing speed > 99.7th%ile, certain verbal areas > 95th%ile, verbal comprehension and story memory > 95th %ile- I think, though I'm not pulling the report out now to look at it) with a wide range of low scores (phonological awareness < 9th %ile, visual closure < 1st %ile, working memory around 40th %ile, etc.) and not too terribly much in the average range except actual reading, which was right around the 60th %ile (so naturally, the neuropsych who refused to test phonological awareness or even give an actual ctopp told me my concerns about dyslexia were ridiculous.).

17 hours ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

I’m Autistic and in the “can do Calculus but not arithmetic” camp.  Please please don’t make arithmetic your hill to die on.  Keep practicing it, sure, but hand the kid a calculator and keep moving forward.  I loved fractions, ratios, geometry, statistics, algebra... Still struggle with math facts.  

Google “Protractor Art.”  Maybe my favorite math thing ever.  Frank Stella makes my heart sing. 

 

I'll check it out!!  It sounds pretty fun! At this point, even if she HAS to learn some of these things, I'm fine moving on to something more interesting and more fun that she can actually DO. There's too much that's hard for her right now. Barton is cause for tears at least once awake. She just finished having to completely re-do an entire level and her morale is down. That doesn't even factor in that we just moved across the country and she's missing her friends, etc. So if there's fun math she can do that's just nonlinear and not in the normal progression, I want to do. I'm even able to do it myself and have created much material for math clubs I've taught. It's just that *I* am also stretched pretty thin right now and would rather have something simple to implement and follow for my *own* ease right now. lol. 🙂

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40th percentile is basically average.  It is a huge gap with her other scores, though.  

Well, I have no idea how visual closure affects math, but that is a low score.  I don’t know if you have a way to know this, but sometimes low scores like that are really low.  Sometimes they aren’t that low in a way, it is more that it’s really uncommon for kids past a certain age not to “just do it.”  

It’s common for dyslexia, to have the phonological scores go up to be much higher with remediation, but still much lower than other areas.  Like — getting up to 30th or 40th percentile would be a huge, massive improvement.  It would still be lower than other scores, though.  

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The visual closure is visual processing, a side effect of the ornery developmental vision problems. 

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1 hour ago, 4KookieKids said:

I don't recall actual scores, but we had a range of high scores (processing speed > 99.7th%ile, certain verbal areas > 95th%ile, verbal comprehension and story memory > 95th %ile- I think, though I'm not pulling the report out now to look at it) with a wide range of low scores (phonological awareness < 9th %ile, visual closure < 1st %ile, working memory around 40th %ile, etc.) and not too terribly much in the average range except actual reading, which was right around the 60th %ile (so naturally, the neuropsych who refused to test phonological awareness or even give an actual ctopp told me my concerns about dyslexia were ridiculous.).

 

I'll check it out!!  It sounds pretty fun! At this point, even if she HAS to learn some of these things, I'm fine moving on to something more interesting and more fun that she can actually DO. There's too much that's hard for her right now. Barton is cause for tears at least once awake. She just finished having to completely re-do an entire level and her morale is down. That doesn't even factor in that we just moved across the country and she's missing her friends, etc. So if there's fun math she can do that's just nonlinear and not in the normal progression, I want to do. I'm even able to do it myself and have created much material for math clubs I've taught. It's just that *I* am also stretched pretty thin right now and would rather have something simple to implement and follow for my *own* ease right now. lol. 🙂

 

Here are some links to the kind of geometric art I really enjoyed. 

https://www.amazon.com/Drawing-Circle-Images-Artistic-Symmetrical/dp/9526787862/

https://www.amazon.com/Compass-Drawings-Construction-designs-compass/dp/1570220999/

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

The visual closure is visual processing, a side effect of the ornery developmental vision problems. 

Yeah, I did just pull out her actual score sheet, and other things that were extremely low were Picture memory, Verbal learning, and Verbal learning recognition (~ 9th %ile, no idea how those two are different, even after googling it, lol. ) Picture span was around the 30th %ile, and her stroop scores were 99th for words, 75th for color, and 13th %Ile for color-word, lol. She's a complex kiddo for sure, and I wish the VT weren't so hard on her so that we could get some of this stuff figured out. She does like reading on the blue student pages in Barton a lot more than the white and says it makes her eyes feel better. Oh well. I suppose it'll all come together at some point! Or not. But we'll keep moving in the right direction. 😄 (hopefully!!)

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3 hours ago, 4KookieKids said:

Yeah, I did just pull out her actual score sheet, and other things that were extremely low were Picture memory, Verbal learning, and Verbal learning recognition (~ 9th %ile, no idea how those two are different, even after googling it, lol. ) Picture span was around the 30th %ile, and her stroop scores were 99th for words, 75th for color, and 13th %Ile for color-word, lol. She's a complex kiddo for sure, and I wish the VT weren't so hard on her so that we could get some of this stuff figured out. She does like reading on the blue student pages in Barton a lot more than the white and says it makes her eyes feel better. Oh well. I suppose it'll all come together at some point! Or not. But we'll keep moving in the right direction. 😄 (hopefully!!)

I think it's kind of rare, but some people need colored filters for visual work. https://irlen.com/what-is-irlen-syndrome/   It's probably somewhere between woo and a fancy name for a specific kind of hypersensitivity, but I thought it might be worth mentioning since you said something about color preference with the pages. 

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15 hours ago, kbutton said:

I think it's kind of rare, but some people need colored filters for visual work. https://irlen.com/what-is-irlen-syndrome/   It's probably somewhere between woo and a fancy name for a specific kind of hypersensitivity, but I thought it might be worth mentioning since you said something about color preference with the pages. 

We just ordered a set of colored overlays that are coming in the mail today and we're going to experiment and just see what kind of preferences my kids have. 🙂

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The overlays really work for some kids.  Both my sons have tried them, but it didn’t make a difference for them.  But it is worth trying!  An OT my older son saw, told me she didn’t see it help too often, but when it did, it made a really big difference.  And it is easy to try.  

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8 hours ago, Lecka said:

The overlays really work for some kids.  Both my sons have tried them, but it didn’t make a difference for them.  But it is worth trying!  An OT my older son saw, told me she didn’t see it help too often, but when it did, it made a really big difference.  And it is easy to try.  

Ok, so can somebody tell me if she's pulling my leg, or if this sounds at all legit? We got our overlays and I was just laying two at a time on two of the Barton stories and asking her which one looks easier to read . One color makes the words look "fuzzy," another makes them look "moving," and yet another makes them look like they're "jumping," she says. A few made the words stand still. With yellow on the left and pink on the right, she says they're about equal, but with yellow on the right and pink on the left, she says pink is fuzzy. She says her left eye just likes yellow more and her right eye likes pink best. I said that sounded ridiculous and asked her what words looked like without an overlay, and she said the letters just look like they're turning into a different letter all the time.  I paired them 16 different ways, so not exhaustively, but each one was in 4 pairs, twice on the right and twice on the left. If I group them by wins, 3 colors count 11 wins total, and the other 5 colors won for a total of 5 times, so there's a clear preference for three of the colors. So if I start trying them, what kind of difference am I looking for? Immediate? Long term? Actual improvement reading, or more attention with focus? I can't quite shake the feeling she's pulling my leg a little. lol. 

I didn't tell her anything before hand except that we were going to make reading more fun with pretty colors and then asked her which she liked best.

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Does she gain anything by saying that? Behaviors usually have a function, a motivation. If she isn't gaining anything, then I don't see a reason to doubt her.

But that also kinda means your head is swizzled like what in the world you do next. 

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Does she gain anything by saying that? Behaviors usually have a function, a motivation. If she isn't gaining anything, then I don't see a reason to doubt her.

Only my attention and confusion. She has been known to say that it's fun to be sassy or rude because when you're sassy or rude, you get more attention. And she's open about doing things for attention on a regular basis. 
So, yes... it's confusing. lol. I may try a different day. Or take those top 3 and try all different variations of those and see what happens.

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This is my understanding — you use them forever.  You expect to see — less fatigue, an easier time seeing the letters.  

 

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I believe there is such a thing as reading glasses with a tinted lens as well.  

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I would not take the “different eye different thing” too seriously.  And then — it will probably take some time to see what her preferences are over time.

Does she have light sensitivity?  You might pay attention to lighting and sunlight and see if any of that seems to make her more fatigued.  

I don’t know a lot about it because my son who has autism doesn’t really have this kind of thing, but I think it is legitimate stuff, and —  in the realm of sensory sensitivity to some extent.  

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This is really a low-key thing, there is nobody trying to make you pay $1,000 in any way.  

Some people with autism do have a lot of visual issues with processing or sensitivity, and anything that will make it easier is probably good to do.  

It might not turn out to make a huge difference, but if she likes it then that is enough, I think.  

Anything that relieves any amount of eye strain ought to make it easier for her to focus longer and with more attention.  It’s good enough. 

Over time — you will either privately think it makes a difference, or privately think it still seems pretty silly.  It will just take time to see how it turns out.  

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This is totally a maybe — but sometimes I have gotten a weird answer like “one eye this, one eye that” (though not that specifically) because they have two answers but they don’t know they are allowed to say two answers, they think they have to pick one thing.  And some times I am wanting them to narrow down to one answer and they are having a hard time doing that.  

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I have never used the overlays, but plenty of people get different colored lenses for hobbies like archery. People use filters on cameras. Our eyes are sensitive.

Several of the colors of new Christmas lights bother me terribly. Like, ruined going to look at Christmas lights terrible. The blues are the worst--they are totally fuzzy and vibrating, and it's just awful to look at them. When they are mixed with light colors that don't bother me, they mess up the colors that don't bother me. It's really annoying. 

I agree that you might have to wait it out and see if things help, but it's nice that you can try this and that it's not a crazy expensive solution. 

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