declawing vs. being an outdoor cat

[caedmyn]

*If you're only going to tell me how inhumane you think declawing is, please refrain from commenting.*

We have a 7 month old male kitten.  Our plan when we got him was to make him mostly an outdoor cat once he was grown.  I wouldn't mind keeping him an indoor cat as he's quite a nice cat, but he needs to be declawed if he's going to stay indoors.  He's completely ruined the carpet in DD's room in front of the door, he scratches the walls in her room (to be fair, they're rough-hewn pine paneling so I imagine they're fairly attractive) in spite of having multiple scratching posts, he destroys stuff in DD's room regularly, and he scratches her quite a lot (but rarely anyone else).  He attacks the curtains and couches also.  Hopefully some of this will subside once he gets neutered next month, and outgrows kittenhood, but I'm not willing for him to destroy the house to remain an indoor cat.  I'm aware of the arguments against declawing and I have had a cat in the past who was declawed due to landlord requirements, as well as a bunch of (mostly outdoor) cats that weren't.  I'm just not sure if it's worth declawing him so he can remain an indoor cat.  We do have really rough winters here, with high winds all winter and stretches of 25-30 below zero temperatures, so he'll have to be indoors a good part of the winter.

[ktgrok]

Have you tried using the products (doubled sided tape, etc) to stop him from scratching what he shouldn't, and put up appropriate scratching posts for him? Both the corrugated cardboard kind and the big sturdy posts?

seems that would be the first thing to do. sound like he's going to be indoors some of the time no matter what, so that needs to be addressed. 

[Terabith]

I don't like declawing.  I also don't like forcing a cat to be an outside only cat, especially in an intemperate area.  Honestly, if those are the only two choices, I'm not sure having a cat is the best thing for you.  There are things you can do:  encourage scratching posts, kitty claw protectors, keeping claws trimmed.  

But, if it really boils down to one or another, I would declaw.  But if you declaw, then the cat absolutely should never, ever go outside.  We did declaw a cat, at around age seven, very reluctantly.  She never had grasped how to retract her claws, and she would jump onto our laps with claws extended, slip, and scratch all the way down.  Both my husband and I needed stitches several times from injuries she gave us completely inadvertently.  I still have numerous scars from her.  We loved her and just dealt with it until I had a baby.  We knew we couldn't bring a newborn into a house with a cat who could cause that much damage.  So, we found a vet who declawed and gave lots of pain meds afterwards.  She was fine.  But it's not always that way.  My mother declawed her cat because she didn't want damage to furniture, and her cat began biting and peeing inappropriately.  It's a real risk.  Declawing is serious and I really think it should be done only when absolutely necessary, but it's better for a cat to be declawed than for a cat to be sent to a shelter or not have a home.  

But I'd really try other options first.  Tape and sprays to discourage scratching of things that you don't want scratched, as well as lots of appropriate places to scratch.  If that didn't work, I'd try the nail covers.  

[klmama]

If you decide declawing is the right path, check into laser declawing.  Less bleeding & pain, quicker recovery.  Likely more money, though.

 

 

[Tanaqui]

Declawing is as likely to lead to MORE behavioral problems, including increased out-of-box urination and biting. And it IS cruel. It's like cutting off your own toes. It may also be illegal in your jurisdiction.

However, at his age it's easy to teach him to submit to regular nail trims. Start by snuggling him and, every time, grab his front paws for a few seconds. Then give him a treat and another snuggle. As time goes by, every day increase how long you hold his paws for and start pressing on the pad of the paw to spread the nails out. Always end with a snuggle and a treat. After a few weeks of this he'll be ready for you to trim one nail at a time, using pet trimmers. (You can use human nail clippers held sideways, but I don't recommend it.) One nail, let him go, give him a treat. Repeat every day until all nails are trimmed. Two weeks later, trim two nails at a time. Within a few months you'll be able to trim all nails at one sitting.

Also, reward him for using his scratching posts. (And make sure you have a variety of materials. My cats will only go for the cheapie cardboard ones, go figure.) If he gets a treat for using his post, and using the walls only gets him removed with no treat, he'll always use his post because it's just as much fun and sometimes the humans will stroll up and give him a treat!

Edited September 23, 2019 by Tanaqui

[MEmama]

Agreeing with all the above.

IMO anything at all is better than an turning her into an outdoor cat, with declawing as the absolute last resort (When we got our first kitty I initially thought we would have to declaw, but was scolded heavily here and learned it’s not usually necessary. I had no idea it was controversial, but after learning more about it we decided we wouldn’t. Then it turned out to be a requirement of adoption that we not declaw anyway—nor allow kitty outside, not that we would have done that).

Trimming kitty nails is a 2 person job here too, at least with the kitten. But it’s totally necessary to learn how. 

Also, a pp mentioned nail covers—have you seen those? The pet shop chains will even adhere them for you. I think I was told it’s about $10 and they last quite awhile. 

[historically accurate]

I've always had cats and up until these current two, they've all been declawed. My last declawed cat came declawed as a kitten in 1999. DH and I decided not to declaw our current two since it's cruel to the cats, but after having these two for a year, I've decided that I hate cat claws. My couch's corners looks horrid; my walls are scratched, and we are scratched regularly. We keep their claws trimmed - fairly easily as they sleep hard with all 4 feet up in the air. We have a cat tree with 2 rope-wrapped posts and three cardboard ones around - they use them, and still use my couch. I know it's very controversial to declaw, but I much prefer it. At this point, my couch is toast, so we'll tough it out with the claws. I can honestly say though, I may not get another cat after this mainly due to the clawing issue, and that is a huge statement from me. With all of our cats growing up and the ones I had as an adult, I never had any behavior changes after declawing. 

[PeppermintPattie]

We have had three cats that we adopted as adults who all came to us declawed, and I can't think of any issues they had because of it. They spent at least part of every day outside and had no problems catching birds and mice, climbing fences, or keeping other cats out of our yard. The first one lived until he was 20, and towards the end, he wasn't able to hold his own in cat fights and had a few abscesses until we quit letting him go outside with out us, but I think that was due to his age rather than having no front claws.

When a relative had her two declawed, they did it when they were being spayed/neutered, and she didn't think they were in pain because of it.

[Pen]

I’d probably try to have plastic claw protectors put on now, do training, and reassess the situation in spring when the weather is warmer and he’s more mature.

But I wouldn’t count on maturity being a solution.  

we have 2 cats currently both in late teens, both indoor/outdoor cats.  one is not into indoor scratching.  The other is a destructive multi toed  polydactyl, big footed scratcher.  The destructive scratcher won’t use a scratch post.  But she will use cardboard.  

It looks pretty bad but I have furniture with cardboard on it to protect it.  Also I use cloth throws and area rugs.  

She’s a very sweet cat, not wild, but purrs and kneads down comforters into shreds.  Sigh. 

[Storygirl]

I know that declawing is controversial, but in your case, it may be the best solution, since the cat will need to be indoors at least part of the time, even if you decide that he should be able to go out.

I did have a kitten declawed once, and he behaved the same afterwards as he did before, with no signs of pain or other changes. The cat I have now was already declawed when we adopted her. I'm not sure that I could make the choice to declaw again, and I know I would have a hard time living with a cat who scratches, so I think will not have another kitty after this one (there are also other reasons).

Even though I have mixed feelings myself, I don't judge others who declaw, and I tend to think that the cat's overall quality of life may be better in your case, if he is clawless.

[MaBelle]

Consider this as me refraining.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, beckyjo said:

I've always had cats and up until these current two, they've all been declawed. My last declawed cat came declawed as a kitten in 1999. DH and I decided not to declaw our current two since it's cruel to the cats, but after having these two for a year, I've decided that I hate cat claws. My couch's corners looks horrid; my walls are scratched, and we are scratched regularly. We keep their claws trimmed - fairly easily as they sleep hard with all 4 feet up in the air. We have a cat tree with 2 rope-wrapped posts and three cardboard ones around - they use them, and still use my couch. I know it's very controversial to declaw, but I much prefer it. At this point, my couch is toast, so we'll tough it out with the claws. I can honestly say though, I may not get another cat after this mainly due to the clawing issue, and that is a huge statement from me. With all of our cats growing up and the ones I had as an adult, I never had any behavior changes after declawing. 

You could always adopt a cat that was already declawed and in a rescue/shelter situation. They get tons of them. 

2 hours ago, PeppermintPattie said:

 

When a relative had her two declawed, they did it when they were being spayed/neutered, and she didn't think they were in pain because of it.

Everyone seems to be saying the cats didn't show any sign of pain, but it is important to realize that cats WON'T show signs of pain.Even cats with broken limbs. 

Declawing is amputation of the entire first digit of the toe. There is zero possibility that amputation is not painful, particularly when you are walking on the wound. So it's kind of pointless to say "they didn't seem to be in pain". We know they are.  That said, the GOOD news is that both the surgery itself and the pain medications available have come a long way in recent years. And  good vets will use a laser to minimize nerve damage and bleeding (although sometimes healing is a bit slower - still less painful though) and will put a Fentanyl patch on the cat the night before, so it has time to kick in before they do surgery and the cat wakes up which will last through the initial bad pain, and do injectable anti-inflammatories, send home pain medication, etc etc. 

Also a factor in this decision - the younger you do it the less traumatic/painful it is. Mostly because 1. they have to learn to walk/balance without that joint anymore and the younger cats adapt more quickly and more importantly 2. the heavier they are the more chance for bleeding, wound reopening, and higher pain from more pressure on the wound as they walk around. 

So a lot of vets won't do it on a cat that is much over 1 year of age. 

So if you are going to do it, do it sooner rather than later. 

I'm NOT a proponent, but I am a pragmatist and I would rather a cat be declawed than rehomed. 

[ktgrok]

Also, -kittens are jerks. I don't like kittens. I love cats. But man, not kittens. Kittens are trouble wrapped up in fur. 

[Tanaqui]

Also, upon reflection it occurs to me that THIS is why our couch and comfy chairs were always covered with a sheet when I was a small child.

[TechWife]

11 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Also, reward him for using his scratching posts. (And make sure you have a variety of materials. My cats will only go for the cheapie cardboard ones, go figure.) If he gets a treat for using his post, and using the walls only gets him removed with no treat, he'll always use his post because it's just as much fun and sometimes the humans will stroll up and give him a treat!

 

Also, pay attention to where he is currently scratching in choosing scratching posts. Since he scratches carpet, make sure he has a flat surface with carpet on it he is allowed to scratch. You can cover a board yourself, or you can buy one. Since he scratches walls, make sure he has a vertical scratching post of as similar a material as possible, corrugated cardboard might work. I once had a cat that scratched baseboards - so I got her a corrugated cardboard ramp on the advice of our vet and it solved the problem.

Since he is scratching around a door, it's likely he wants to go in or out of that room when the door is closed. Put a cat door in it so he can go in and out at will.

[MEmama]

4 hours ago, beckyjo said:

I've always had cats and up until these current two, they've all been declawed. My last declawed cat came declawed as a kitten in 1999. DH and I decided not to declaw our current two since it's cruel to the cats, but after having these two for a year, I've decided that I hate cat claws. My couch's corners looks horrid; my walls are scratched, and we are scratched regularly. We keep their claws trimmed - fairly easily as they sleep hard with all 4 feet up in the air. We have a cat tree with 2 rope-wrapped posts and three cardboard ones around - they use them, and still use my couch. I know it's very controversial to declaw, but I much prefer it. At this point, my couch is toast, so we'll tough it out with the claws. I can honestly say though, I may not get another cat after this mainly due to the clawing issue, and that is a huge statement from me. With all of our cats growing up and the ones I had as an adult, I never had any behavior changes after declawing. 

But not all cats scratch things up. Neither of ours do and one is still very much a tiny kitten. I will say we were VERY surprised it’s been a non issue with both kitties.

We do have a couple of scratchers; they do use them for that purpose but they use them more for playing hide and seek with each other and for practicing their hunting skills. 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

I seriously think you should have at least one of your fingernails removed to see if it really is painful. There’s a reason states are outlawing declawing. Honest to god, get rid of the cat. You do not deserve an animal if it entails torture to keep your belongings safe. And yes, that is me “refraining”. It’s not an opinion, declawing an animal is in fact, inhumane.

Yes and no. Ideally, I'd agree. In actuality, there are no where NEAR enough homes for all the cats out there. so, in reality, declawed is better than dead or on the streets. 

[MercyA]

About 70% of all cats entering shelters in the United States are euthanized. I would much rather see a cat declawed than dropped off at a shelter to face those odds.

Obviously, those aren't the only two options in this particular case. Just pointing out that new homes for cats aren't easy to come by. 😞 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

It’s more like having a human finger removed to the knuckle closest to the nail. 

OP, some cats never heal properly after declawing. Please keep that in mind. 

To others: some of us are suggesting rehoming, not sending the cat to a shelter. 

Yes, but then that home won't be able to take in some other cat - there are a finite number of homes and so many cats. If she no longer has cats that gets rid of one of the homes, and indirectly that does effect shelter/rescue cats. 

[Splash1]

My son came home with a beautiful female kitten he wanted to be his cuddle buddy.  She is the most athletic, energetic, wild cat I've ever met.  The vet even commented on it, pretty sure she's from feral parents.  She has to be outdoors most of the time to be happy.  She refuses to use a litterbox. Before we finally allowed her out she would run through the house screaming and jumping from things for hours.  She has shredded carpets, window sills, doors, etc.  She needs to be outdoors to be healthy and happy.  We have shelters for her and she has access to garage, sheds and barn but just declawing her ( which we considered) would not have taken care of her needs.  I do live in an area with barn cats and not a neighborhood so she has plenty of area to patrol.  She is now 4yrs old and thriving.  Good luck with your decision.  

We also have a cat who is 100% outside/garage (she's 14yrs old and still hunts everyday)  and has panic attacks if brought indoors.  She is feral but friendly.  We also have a cat who is now 6 who is 100% indoors and is a couch potato.  He was from a litter we rescued at 1 week old and bottle fed.

Kimberly

[ktgrok]

I definitely have had experience with a cat that HAD to be outside, or was miserable. Only one, thankfully. And he did disappear once and never came back. He was a stray I tried to take in, and it just didn't work out like I'd hoped. 

But a 7 month old can definitely be taught to be indoors only. sounds like the cat gets frustrated and bored in the bedroom and hence the scratching and biting and carpet issues. 

[hjffkj]

3 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Oh indirectly I suppose but not if the family taking it in never planned to go get a cat lol 

This is very true. I do not particularly like cats and would never get a cat simply because I wanted a cat. However, if I knew someone who was desperate to re-home a cat that was a bad fit I'd seriously consider it depending on my relationship with the person. For example, my aunt moved across the country in a situation where she couldn't take her cat when I was younger. Our non cat family took both cats and loved them very much for the rest of their lives.

But I'd never go to a shelter and get a cat.

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

This is very true. I do not particularly like cats and would never get a cat simply because I wanted a cat. However, if I knew someone who was desperate to re-home a cat that was a bad fit I'd seriously consider it depending on my relationship with the person. For example, my aunt moved across the country in a situation where she couldn't take her cat when I was younger. Our non cat family took both cats and loved them very much for the rest of their lives.

But I'd never go to a shelter and get a cat.

Yeah...but how many non cat wanting people are going to take in a cat that the owners are rehoming because it destroys furniture and attacks their kid, lol? Not exactly a sales pitch 🙂

[Pen]

Do u have a garage where he could get warm and shelter from elements in winter if he were to become an outdoor cat?  

I’ve put kittens in big dog crate at times (with toys and scratch post in it) so they could be near people, but not getting into trouble. 

[TheReader]

On 9/23/2019 at 9:06 AM, PeppermintPattie said:

We have had three cats that we adopted as adults who all came to us declawed, and I can't think of any issues they had because of it. They spent at least part of every day outside and had no problems catching birds and mice, climbing fences, or keeping other cats out of our yard. The first one lived until he was 20, and towards the end, he wasn't able to hold his own in cat fights and had a few abscesses until we quit letting him go outside with out us, but I think that was due to his age rather than having no front claws.

When a relative had her two declawed, they did it when they were being spayed/neutered, and she didn't think they were in pain because of it.

Thank you for posting this; one of the options we've been considering for our "won't stop bringing LIVE mice into our house from the field outside, to play with/possibly get away" cat is that we might declaw her in hopes it would stop her getting over the fence/out of the yard and thus reduce her hunting. Sounds like from this, nope, not at all. :sigh: 

3 hours ago, Splash1 said:

My son came home with a beautiful female kitten he wanted to be his cuddle buddy.  She is the most athletic, energetic, wild cat I've ever met.  The vet even commented on it, pretty sure she's from feral parents.  She has to be outdoors most of the time to be happy.  She refuses to use a litterbox. Before we finally allowed her out she would run through the house screaming and jumping from things for hours.  She has shredded carpets, window sills, doors, etc.  She needs to be outdoors to be healthy and happy.  We have shelters for her and she has access to garage, sheds and barn but just declawing her ( which we considered) would not have taken care of her needs.  I do live in an area with barn cats and not a neighborhood so she has plenty of area to patrol.  She is now 4yrs old and thriving.  Good luck with your decision.  

We also have a cat who is 100% outside/garage (she's 14yrs old and still hunts everyday)  and has panic attacks if brought indoors.  She is feral but friendly.  We also have a cat who is now 6 who is 100% indoors and is a couch potato.  He was from a litter we rescued at 1 week old and bottle fed.

Kimberly

 

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I definitely have had experience with a cat that HAD to be outside, or was miserable. Only one, thankfully. And he did disappear once and never came back. He was a stray I tried to take in, and it just didn't work out like I'd hoped. 

But a 7 month old can definitely be taught to be indoors only. sounds like the cat gets frustrated and bored in the bedroom and hence the scratching and biting and carpet issues. 

 

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

We took ours in at like 9 weeks. She was living with her family under a house and the owners of the mama rehomed a bunch. Even though we’ve had her since she was itty bitty we do believe she’s a bit feral. I don’t think you can always help that. 

^^^and all of that explains our cat. :sigh: We got her at 8 or 9 weeks or something from the shelter, Maine Coone Mix, and oh.my.word. she won't be deterred from going outside. We tried. Massively. I asked her for advice on it, even, because we do have threats to outdoor kitties in our area. But she won't be stopped, and actually fusses at us on the nights we close the dog door early (DH is convinced she is vindictive and will scratch the corner of the couch out of anger.....cracks me up). 

I do wonder her background, because while we have had her from a super young age (she's about 18 months or so now), she is just.....wild. What's that quote about Aslan, good, but not tame? That's her. She would routinely stay out from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. if we let her (she's stayed out past midnight a few times....). Lately with the insane uptick in her hunting, we shut the dog door at dusk, regardless what side she's on, but.....oye.

(we let her in via the regular door once she shows up on the back porch, but this way we can screen her and be sure she's not carrying in a mouse to get loose; we spent 2 hrs over the weekend trying to retrieve a live mouse hiding in the, to us inaccessible, unfinished corner between where 2 cabinets meet....). 

 

[TheReader]

As for the original question -- things we've done to deter scratching, that have worked even with our super stubborn wild child kitty: 

-spare piece of scrap carpet placed on whatever spot the cat likes to scratch; ours will kind of scratch/drag themselves along the bottom step. We placed a carpet remnant along this, that way they are scratching the remnant and not the real carpet. It matches our carpet so it doesn't look too weird. 

-place the scratching posts in the places they like to scratch. So, at the corner of the couch(es). Next to the door jam where they're scratching. Etc. 

-use scratch deterrents. We've had good success with the anti-scratch/chew sprays that are sold in pet stores. 

-use deterrents such as aluminum foil, sticky tape, balloons, etc.; we have a corner of one couch wrapped in foil at the moment (though reading this, I think we'll swap out to cardboard...genius!)

-make sure and craft some busy-boxes type things, not just scratching posts. DH made a "cat hotel" out of layers of stacked cardboard boxes with holes cut in them. It was ugly, but kept the cat entertained/occupied/busy for long stretches. She'd take toys in there and hide out, and then pounce on any of the other pets (or people) that came near. Ha! (hmm, maybe if we return the cat hotel, this will give her an outlet other than hunting.....)

-teach the kids to never play with the kitty with just their hand directly but always with a toy, and redirect scratching/biting to a toy vs person every time, similar to how you do with a dog

-use water bottles/squirt bottles to deter/stop/interrupt bad behavior from the cat. You can also use a can with coins in it and shake the can (one quick shake, not a maraca style shake). Especially with a kitten, this should work for most things. It worked on our wild one for everything but the allure of the outdoors. 

If you struggle trimming the claws, use a towel to wrap/swaddle the kitty and hold him in a football hold and only let out the one paw to trim at a time. 

I wouldn't do "just outdoors" since you say winter, he'd have to be in anyway, and training him now on scratching/not scratching will be easier than waiting any longer and retraining him from outdoors only to indoors for safety, but forget your outdoor only behavior. 

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

(DH is convinced she is vindictive and will scratch the corner of the couch out of anger.....cracks me up). 

Cats can DEFINITELY be vindictive.  Our jerk cat will get annoyed by something that I do to him, wait a fairly good long while, and then attack my daughter, while looking right at me.  He totally is attacking her to punish me, and he's clearly doing it because I annoyed him.  

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Cats can DEFINITELY be vindictive.  Our jerk cat will get annoyed by something that I do to him, wait a fairly good long while, and then attack my daughter, while looking right at me.  He totally is attacking her to punish me, and he's clearly doing it because I annoyed him.  

My MIL has a cat that is sweet but a little crazed...and if MIL gets on to him for being too wild he will turn and attack the dog (poor sweet dog just looks so confused)

[shawthorne44]

I asked my vet about the life expectancy of indoor vs indoor-outdoor cats.   She said that there was no comparison.  Indoor/Outdoor was about a year.   Indoor was about 10 years.  And these were cats cared for enough to see the vet. 

With my last two cats, not only did I declaw her front claws I had the back declawed too.   They don't wear them down being inside and it bugs them.  I had a cat while in college that would demand his back claws be clipped.  He would sit nearby but out of reach and chew on his back claws to make this really annoying noise.  Then he'd stop and look significantly at me.  If I got up to get the clippers he'd stop.   If I continued to study he'd make the noise again only worse.   I was well trained. 

My theory is that if my toes were covered in fur, and the surgery to remove my toenails was outpatient and the same price as for cats, I would TOTALLY have my toenails removed. 
 

[hjffkj]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah...but how many non cat wanting people are going to take in a cat that the owners are rehoming because it destroys furniture and attacks their kid, lol? Not exactly a sales pitch 🙂

 True, but as a pet sitter I know plenty of people who would take in a cat needing to be re-homed but wouldn't get another one from a shelter. I pet sit for a women who has 9 cats, all from re-home situations. She would never get one at a shelter but she doesn't hesitate when someone she knows finds a cat or can't keep theirs for one reason or another

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

My theory is that if my toes were covered in fur, and the surgery to remove my toenails was outpatient and the same price as for cats, I would TOTALLY have my toenails removed. 
 

But would you have the first joint of your toes removed? It’s not just removing the toenail it is amputation at the first knuckle. 

[hjffkj]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

My theory is that if my toes were covered in fur, and the surgery to remove my toenails was outpatient and the same price as for cats, I would TOTALLY have my toenails removed. 
 

But cats don't have their toenails removed. They have part of their toes removed, that is a huge difference. Would you remove part of your toe?

[hjffkj]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

 

Beyond the cost and no need to deal with recovery, what is the compelling reason not to?

You need a compelling reason to not cut parts your toes off?  

[klmama]

6 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

I asked my vet about the life expectancy of indoor vs indoor-outdoor cats.   She said that there was no comparison.  Indoor/Outdoor was about a year.   Indoor was about 10 years.  And these were cats cared for enough to see the vet. 

Really?  Wow, I guess my 17-19 yo cats were unusual.  I thought most indoor cats lived that long.

[Tanaqui]

Yeah, I'm not cutting off parts of my fingers or toes either. I need my toes to walk!

[shawthorne44]

8 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

...Unless you're saying you despise clipping them so you would rather not have them than deal with that? I don't really understand. 

 

I really do hate to clip them and they serve no purpose at all. 

People have surgery for all sorts of reasons.  As it is, I'm not exactly in factory-original condition.   Not all of those changes were for medical reasons. 

[Lanny]

We have cats that are in the house and outside part of the time. I would never consider Declawing a cat that I intended to have inside 100% of the time, because if they got out, they would be defenseless.

Can you be  absolutely positive that if you Declaw a cat that it will NEVER go outside, where it would be defenseless?

[caedmyn]

16 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

I asked my vet about the life expectancy of indoor vs indoor-outdoor cats.   She said that there was no comparison.  Indoor/Outdoor was about a year.   Indoor was about 10 years.  And these were cats cared for enough to see the vet. 
 

That must be highly location specific.  We had a number of cats growing up, all of whom were indoor/outdoor cats, and none had shortened lives due to that, unless you count the one who was we put down due to attacking other cats and their owners wanting us to pay the resulting vet bills.  Two were 10+ (one must have been more than 15) when they died of something old-age related, two were given away for various reasons, one my parents thought (or knew, can't remember) jumped into their running vehicle when the door was left open when someone ran in to get something, then jumped out and ran off when they made a stop...she must have been at least 10 at the time.  I think there was one more but I don't remember what happened to that one.  And we lived on a moderately busy street (though it came to a T at the end of our block so people didn't drive down it fast) with a very busy street directly behind us.

[Selkie]

8 minutes ago, Lanny said:

We have cats that are in the house and outside part of the time. I would never consider Declawing a cat that I intended to have inside 100% of the time, because if they got out, they would be defenseless.

Can you be  absolutely positive that if you Declaw a cat that it will NEVER go outside, where it would be defenseless?

Last year, we adopted a six year old cat whose previous owner had her declawed and then abandoned her outside. The poor baby was absolutely ripped to shreds when a good samaritan found her and brought her to the shelter.😞She's living the good life now, but is covered head to toe in scars and has a permanent limp. 

So yes, I agree with Lanny. If you are going to take the drastic step of amputating your cat's toes and thereby removing its means of defense, then you have to absolutely commit to making sure that cat never goes outside for the rest of its life.

[hjffkj]

1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

 

Edited:changed my mind. Too off topic and not worth arguing stupid stuff

Edited September 25, 2019 by hjffkj

[Tanaqui]

Guys. Toes DO serve a purpose. They really ARE necessary for ease in walking. I feel we've all drifted into some very strange place where some of us aren't sure we need toes. You can live without your toes, just like you can live without your entire foot, but your life is definitely improved by having your limbs be in their original factory setting.

[caedmyn]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

Guys. Toes DO serve a purpose. They really ARE necessary for ease in walking. I feel we've all drifted into some very strange place where some of us aren't sure we need toes. You can live without your toes, just like you can live without your entire foot, but your life is definitely improved by having your limbs be in their original factory setting.

This made me laugh.  It was just one person...and I think she was only referring to toenails, although her one post did say toes.  I don't think that was quite what she meant though.

[Tanaqui]

You really, really, really do use your toes in walking. They help you balance, and they help you walk properly. If you don't intend to walk around, fine, your toes aren't crucial. If you do like to walk from bed to the bathroom, you want your toes.

[Storygirl]

https://www.footvitals.com/toes/severed-toe.html

Amused at the turn this thread has taken, I did a little googling and thought I would share what the internet has to say about the importance of toes. Of course, this article just addresses losing one toe, not all of them, which would be a completely different matter.

Cat anatomy is different, of course.

[Tanaqui]

Thanks for that, Storygirl. I'm not sure if I'm more amused or alarmed. I never ever imagined I'd have to defend our little piggies to people itching to chop 'em off!

[Pen]

Pretty cat hands sheathed and holding on with “thumbs” — I guess as I like polydactyl cats, I must like claws : 

[maize]

14 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Well no, it's certainly not on any specific list of medical procedures to have done.  (removing my entire feminine reproductive system is, now that I am done with it, but I don't think docs will do that selectively lol.)  All I was saying, by way of jokingly agreeing with the thought to remove toes, is that I can't see that there's any real reason to keep my toes, generally speaking.  I really can't imagine that my toes are so important to my body (and probably much less important my feminine reproductive system) that I should find the concept of removing them to be something awful or inhumane.  

 

Now, removing them without anesthetic, sure.  No option for pain meds, sure.  

 

We use our toes with every step we take--we would hobble very, very awkwardly without them. In a walking gate, our weight naturally rolls from our heels though to our toes. We push off for the next step with our toes. Same for a running gate if we run with a heel strike--most people who run in structures shoes do. The other way to run, which many barefoot/minimalist shoe runners use, is a toe strike where the toes and forefoot strike the ground first and foremost to absorb impact before pushing off again.

You may be unaware of how significant your toes are in your daily activities, but I assure you their loss would result in significant handicap.

Toenails alone are a bit different, there are long distance runners who have their toenails surgically removed to avoid problems caused primarily by interactions between the toenails and their shoes. My daughter has experienced significant toenail problems when dancing many hours per week.

[shawthorne44]

1 hour ago, maize said:

 

We use our toes with every step we take--we would hobble very, very awkwardly without them....

 

Actually, no.  Maybe true of the big toe.   To quote my podiatrist everything but my big toe was "on vacation".    They didn't touch the ground at all when I walk.   And I have a walk that is nice enough that other females have asked how they could adopt it.  

Note, that they aren't on vacation anymore.  I don't normally wear shoes in the house and after about a year and half of being a SAHM my foot health radically improved.  It was a really weird feeling the first time my toes touched the ground. 

[Tanaqui]

So your foot health improved after you started using the other 8 toes?

[Fawnmoscato]

I will not refrain from speaking up against animal abuse. Declawing is inhumane. A person should not have an animal if they are going to abuse said animal. Cats that are declawed can live their whole lives in pain. 

For those that do not know the opposition to declawing PLEASE do the research.