Is respect overrated? (discussion of Flowers for Algernon)

[Teaching3bears]

This post is based on thoughts I had while reading the book Flowers for Algernon.  If you have not read this book and don't want any spoilers in case you read it then you might choose not to read this thread.  

Anyways, in the book, a man who is intellectually disabled is given an operation that makes him very smart for a short time.  Even though really appreciated being smart and tries to make the most of it he seems much happier when he was not smart.  When he was not smart people did not respect him.  They laughed at him and he laughed along with them mostly clueless to their lack of respect for him.  But he seemed much happier and he felt they were his friends.  There was something very beautiful about his happiness.

I found this very thought-provoking.  How important is it that we demand respect in every relationship we have?  What if it is an irreplaceable relationship like a lifelong friendship, a sibling or a parent?  I feel like if a person cannot respect you they should not be part of your life.  Still, this book has me torn.  I have seen nice people who, for whatever reason, have tended not to be given respect from others.  Often, these people were somewhat (not fully) aware of this but chose to ignore it and continued the relationship which they valued.  If they had ended all the disrespectful relationships they might have been left with nobody.

Is ignorance bliss and respect somewhat overrated or not? 

 

 

[Guest]

Not in my opinion. I don’t think inauthentic relationships are better just by being more plentiful. I would rather have one true friend than fifty fake friends or mere acquaintances who don’t really know the real me. The people I love most are those who really know me and who accept me anyway. 

I don’t really like the phrasing “...we demand respect...” because I don’t think it’s respect if you have to demand it. Ideally, respect is a natural by-product of having a deep regard for another person. Someone who *demands* respect from me is actually very unlikely to get it from me, unless they wield some power that make it unavoidable. Even then, I don’t really *respect* them, I’m just willing to play the game to avoid negative consequences. 

[Teaching3bears]

19 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

I don’t really like the phrasing “...we demand respect...” because I don’t think it’s respect if you have to demand it. Ideally, respect is a natural by-product of having a deep regard for another person. Someone who *demands* respect from me is actually very unlikely to get it from me, unless they wield some power that make it unavoidable. Even then, I don’t really *respect* them, I’m just willing to play the game to avoid negative consequences. 

I don't like that phrasing either and I don't know why I used it.

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Not in my opinion. I don’t think inauthentic relationships are better just by being more plentiful. I would rather have one true friend than fifty fake friends or mere acquaintances who don’t really know the real me. The people I love most are those who really know me and who accept me anyway. 

I don’t really like the phrasing “...we demand respect...” because I don’t think it’s respect if you have to demand it. Ideally, respect is a natural by-product of having a deep regard for another person. Someone who *demands* respect from me is actually very unlikely to get it from me, unless they wield some power that make it unavoidable. Even then, I don’t really *respect* them, I’m just willing to play the game to avoid negative consequences. 

 

I mostly agree with this, with the exception that to some degree you teach people how to treat you. You can't force anyone to treat you with respect, but generally if you refuse to have ongoing relationships with people who treat you badly or in some other way make it clear that you won't put up with being treated badly you're much less likely to be treated badly.  Or at least the awful people are repelled. 

IDK what if anything that has to do with disability, intellectual or otherwise.  I generally think that people who don't treat others with basic human dignity (whatever their capacity) says a great deal more about them than it does about the worth of the person with a disability.

And no, I don't think respect is overrated.  But I'm from a Southern military family so I'm sure that culture factors in a lot.  But even those who some people scoff at deserve respect.

[Rosie_0801]

What matters is having enough of our needs met. If respect is not our need in a given relationship, it won't matter to us if we don't have it.

I have been half of a relationship where I was much fonder of them than they were of me, yet this was not unhealthy for me because I didn't care whether they felt affection for me or not. 

[SKL]

If the person feels respected, and is not being abused, then is it really more important that the relationship appears mutually respectful to outsiders?

Especially in a close relationship, person A giving person B what person B wants and needs may be misunderstood by a person outside of the relationship.

Relationships are complex and it can be hard to know where to draw the line. 

If you know someone whom you think is being disrespected, and that person isn't totally helpless, maybe talk to the "disrespected" person to check on their feelings.  Maybe suggest words the person could use to express what they want to change within the relationship.  IMO ending a relationship that has any redeeming qualities is a last resort.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Katy said:

 

I mostly agree with this, with the exception that to some degree you teach people how to treat you. You can't force anyone to treat you with respect, but generally if you refuse to have ongoing relationships with people who treat you badly or in some other way make it clear that you won't put up with being treated badly you're much less likely to be treated badly.  Or at least the awful people are repelled. 

IDK what if anything that has to do with disability, intellectual or otherwise.  I generally think that people who don't treat others with basic human dignity (whatever their capacity) says a great deal more about them than it does about the worth of the person with a disability.

And no, I don't think respect is overrated.  But I'm from a Southern military family so I'm sure that culture factors in a lot.  But even those who some people scoff at deserve respect.

I do agree that we are always showing people what behavior we will tolerate and excuse. The relationships I had early in adulthood where I was not treated well illustrated this; I did not have the emotional strength to curb mistreatment. But, at the same time, a weaker or disadvantaged person should not be de facto disrespected by the bullies of the world. 

[Tanaqui]

The author of that book never had experience of being the butt of every joke and widely disrespected due to intellectual disability. I'm not sure they're a reliable source on the issue of whether or not it matters.

[SKL]

I would just add - I didn't get that particular message from reading that story.  Granted, I read it in high school, but what I took from it is that being smart, or knowing everything, isn't the blessing some people think it is.  Truth is, there are some things you don't want or need to know.  I mean, do you want to know if your parents ever cheated?  Or if they ever wished you weren't conceived?  Or if some teacher or coach secretly thought you were a mess?  What good would it do to know such things?

I wonder if it also relates to the story of Adam and Eve where they decided to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, against God's command.  My take on that is that the concept of two polar opposites - one good, one bad - does not really make for happiness - nor is it really even true.  It causes so much contention, as can be seen in our political situation today (which is probably as old as politics). 

Or maybe it is just another fairy tale about how being too greedy for anything will end in disaster.

I think they used a character with ID because it made it easier to tell the story. Not because they think it is OK to make fun of slow people.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that being treated with kindness trumps being treated with respect.  I don't think that they are identical, though of course you can be kind to people that you respect.  Respect is earned, not demanded.  But I do think that you can earn respect by not putting up with being treated badly in some situations. 

[Farrar]

There's a great meme that talks about the two different meanings of respect and how they can be at odds for people.

Respect can mean "treat me like a person" or "treat me like an authority."

I think you can't possibly overvalue treating someone like a person. But sometimes when people say "respect" someone, they mean treat them with deference or as an authority or allow them particular liberties. And that is something that I don't think is necessary in all relationships or for all people.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Respect is a "deep admiration" for someone.  I might treat an authority figure with respect for their position while not really respecting them as a person.  But that is because I do respect leadership positions, not because I am "treating someone like an authority".  And it has zero to do with giving anyone liberties. 

[Farrar]

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Respect is a "deep admiration" for someone.  I might treat an authority figure with respect for their position while not really respecting them as a person.  But that is because I do respect leadership positions, not because I am "treating someone like an authority".  And it has zero to do with giving anyone liberties. 

I think that's *a* definition of respect. There's a wide variety of interpretations. I think respect that can absolutely be about giving someone the trust to do certain things, have certain privileges, be in charge of certain things, have particular powers or rights. I guess I'm just trying to say that there are a lot of nuances of meaning when people say "respect." When someone laughs at someone who doesn't have the cognitive resources to understand that they're being mocked, I absolutely think that's not respectful. If someone is kind and recognizes that mockery isn't okay, then I would say that's a form of respect. But I wouldn't say that's "deep admiration." I would say that's recognizing that all people have a right to basic dignity.

[Teaching3bears]

I should clarify that when I said "respect" I did not mean admiration. I meant not mocking, bad-mouthing or bullying or using someone. What some of you have pointed out is that the author assumes that people with ID are obvious to being mocked. I don't think they are. They know it just like children know when they ar being mocked and it hurts them.

Still, I have seen people (without disabilities) who are at a vulnerable time of life being used or disrespected in some way who just ignore it and just smile. I have seen others who reject the person/people who is hurting them. Who is happier in the end?

[Murphy101]

The general DBAD rule doesn’t need to be renamed “give respect”. 

I’d say people need to raise the standards of behavior bar, but too many can’t even find the bar, much less raise it.

I’m with the pp who commented on two kinds of respect and peer respect being a waste.

[Bluegoat]

That's an interesting question. I'd say a few things.

I have no doubt that the man might have been happier when he did not realise that others were not respecting him, and I agree that there can be a kind of simple and beautiful joy in the life of someone like that.  I think that often we put the wrong kind of value on intelligence, and assume it makes happiness easier.

I think it is also to love someone without respecting them.  Even if the lack of respect is undeserved and unfair, it does not necessarily mean lack of love.  People are just more complicated than that.

On the other hand, respect isn't only about the person being respected.  even if a lack of respect doesn't touch that person, it is bad for the person being disrespectful, it tends to distort their soul.  For that reason alone I think it shouldn't be considered unimportant.

Demanding respect is tricky. Sometimes it needs to be directly pointed out that there is disrespect, because it can be toxic.  I've been thinking a lot the last few days about lack of respect in political and social debates, the belief that other ways of thinking are not only mistaken, but immoral, the assumption that others are speaking in bad faith or with underlying ill intent, or are just stupid.  These things are fundamentally about lack of respect and very often the people should know better.  Often though such challenges don't bear fruit, and all you can do is remove yourself from the situation.  Perhaps part of the problem is such direct appeals don't really address the roots of the lack of respect, the conditions that lead to it.  

The other question I guess is what does it mean to respect another person.  I think that in secular terms it's about respecting the dignity of the human person, and that applies to all people.  You can also respect people, beyond that, for their own particular accomplishments, but if you don't have the first kind of respect the rest breaks down.  Sometimes I think the reason people don't like that kind of respect without regard to personage, because it means respect for people who aren't very appealing, who may in fact be your enemy, or bad people.  You can't , without prick of conscience, hate or despise people of x religion, or ignore the conditions of criminals in prisons, or those who have harmed you, or have anti-social behaviours that are scary, if you admit to some kind of universal human dignity.  You need to be able to put some people outside of that.

Demands for respect though can be, and it's not uncommon, a demand to have your perspective elevated over others.  So there's that, too.

[Bluegoat]

On 9/23/2019 at 6:15 AM, SKL said:

If the person feels respected, and is not being abused, then is it really more important that the relationship appears mutually respectful to outsiders?

Especially in a close relationship, person A giving person B what person B wants and needs may be misunderstood by a person outside of the relationship.

Relationships are complex and it can be hard to know where to draw the line. 

If you know someone whom you think is being disrespected, and that person isn't totally helpless, maybe talk to the "disrespected" person to check on their feelings.  Maybe suggest words the person could use to express what they want to change within the relationship.  IMO ending a relationship that has any redeeming qualities is a last resort.

 

This is interesting.  My dad once shocked a friend of mine who saw him interacting with a high school friend of his, a gay black man. My dad (and really hia whole family) have always been terrible teases, and that's something that of course isn't part of every family culture but it's not uncommon here in some sub-cultures.  My dad was saying things that would not have been considered at all PC.   What I don't think she understood at all was that to be a gay black man when he and my dad were in high school was to be very marginalised indeed, it really wasn't at all acceptable in the black community here. That my dad not only accepted him, but treated him in the same way he treated everyone without acting as if it was a delicate topic, meant a lot to him, and ten they had been friends for something like 30 years, gone to the same group therapy for depression patients at one point in their lives, and so on.  

So yes, I do think you are right, you have to be careful about making assumptions about people and their relationship when you don't really know them very well. 

[Bluegoat]

Quote

What some of you have pointed out is that the author assumes that people with ID are obvious to being mocked. I don't think they are.

Well, that's the situation in the story.  I'd not say that you can extrapolate that it is meant to be understood as universal, or even usual.  I don't think the story is really about intellectual disability as such.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Still, I have seen people (without disabilities) who are at a vulnerable time of life being used or disrespected in some way who just ignore it and just smile. I have seen others who reject the person/people who is hurting them. Who is happier in the end?

 

The second group, all the way.

[Farrar]

It's been awhile since I read Algernon, but...

I think there are ways in which people can laugh about something that another person has done without them fully getting it that isn't necessarily disrespectful. I mean, that's not limited to people with intellectual disabilities. Sometimes totally neurotypical people are oblivious. And kids are absolutely not in on the joke of why they did something funny sometimes. People who work with people or are close to people who have intellectual disabilities are probably going to laugh about misunderstandings and the like. I don't think that's disrespectful necessarily. I think that's life. We laugh about mess ups and sometimes humor is a coping mechanism too.

But in Algernon, IIRC, they elicit the funny things in order to laugh at him. They're not laughing about a situation, they're directly mocking him. And that's not okay. And I do think that's a form of disrespect because it's not recognizing someone's basic human dignity. And I don't think it matters if the butt of the joke gets it or not. It breeds toxic assumptions and attitudes. It objectifies the person in question. I don't think there's no harm in that. Just because the person who is the butt of the joke doesn't understand or connect that with indignities they suffer or problems they have doesn't mean that therefore any connection is moot.

I'm remembering when I was in 8th grade, one of my elective periods, I was the teacher helper. There were three of us, all girls, for three different teachers. We'd hang out in one room a lot of the time, eat crackers (one of the teachers always had a stash), and grade multiple choice papers or math papers or sometimes do other things like set up a new bulletin board or clean out a cabinet. Sometimes the teachers were around, but often they were having their break and planning period and would go to the teacher lounge and just leave us to it. There was also an autistic boy from a special ed program whose job was to come in and clean the boards and erasers and empty the trash cans. Kids in that program would do small jobs, get paid a small amount, and then once a week have a special outing to spend that money on candy at a store down the street. This is probably not an awesome educational model, but that's a whole other can of worms. Anyway, the boy - I remember him so clearly - was a complete mimic. He would "do" the morning announcements, commercials, snippets of TV shows, even some of the teachers. And it wasn't just random talking - he had trouble not talking nonstop, but it wasn't like he couldn't hold a conversation. Two of us clearly found it alternately funny and uncomfortable. Sometimes we'd laugh. Sometimes we'd try to redirect him into something like a conversation or back to wiping things down. Sometimes we'd ignore him. But one of the girls thought it was hilarious and she would basically egg him on. And also get him to say things that weren't really appropriate so she could laugh at him over it. He liked her the best. He clearly thought she was his friend and she encouraged that because it let her laugh at him more. He never seemed unhappy with her, but also, the other girl and I were made even more uncomfortable by her and him because of this. And being 13, neither of us ever really talked about it or articulated it.

When I look back now, I don't feel bad that I laughed at the things he said sometimes. He was actually really talented - sometimes I didn't understand at the time and something that I don't think was ever encouraged. He could have been an incredible actor and probably would have gotten a lot out of doing something like that. The education he was receiving makes me angry now - he was clearly capable of way more. And that other girl makes me angry. The way she treated him never got more than a very mild leave him alone from a teacher. No one ever said, this is wrong. But the effect of allowing him to think that someone who treated him that way was his friend cannot possibly have been a good one. It was practically encouraging him to think that others using him was a positive sign of friendship. How's that going to have worked out as he went out into the world? I just don't buy that ignorance was bliss across the board. I think he was hurt by that, even if he didn't connect it at the time.

 

[Garga]

And then there’s pride.  Not a healthy pride, but the sort of pride that goes before a fall.  Where is the balance in expecting some sort of mutual healthy respect from others vs being filled with pride and expecting undue respect from others?

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about pride and trying to root out the unhealthy kind in my life (like when I just *have* to be right in a goofy argument with my dh perhaps).  And I’ve been noticing times when people are filled with too much pride and it causes them or others unhappiness.  

Perhaps some people feel more humble than others and don’t perceive themselves as being disrespected.  Perhaps they see the disrespecting behavior in the other person as showing where that other person is filled with too much pride and they see it as a flaw in that person, but not enough of a flaw to cut off ties.

Or perhaps the people being disrespected have low self-esteems.  

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Garga

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

It's been awhile since I read Algernon, but...

I think there are ways in which people can laugh about something that another person has done without them fully getting it that isn't necessarily disrespectful. I mean, that's not limited to people with intellectual disabilities. Sometimes totally neurotypical people are oblivious. And kids are absolutely not in on the joke of why they did something funny sometimes. People who work with people or are close to people who have intellectual disabilities are probably going to laugh about misunderstandings and the like. I don't think that's disrespectful necessarily. I think that's life. We laugh about mess ups and sometimes humor is a coping mechanism too.

But in Algernon, IIRC, they elicit the funny things in order to laugh at him. They're not laughing about a situation, they're directly mocking him. And that's not okay. And I do think that's a form of disrespect because it's not recognizing someone's basic human dignity. And I don't think it matters if the butt of the joke gets it or not. It breeds toxic assumptions and attitudes. It objectifies the person in question. I don't think there's no harm in that. Just because the person who is the butt of the joke doesn't understand or connect that with indignities they suffer or problems they have doesn't mean that therefore any connection is moot.

I'm remembering when I was in 8th grade, one of my elective periods, I was the teacher helper. There were three of us, all girls, for three different teachers. We'd hang out in one room a lot of the time, eat crackers (one of the teachers always had a stash), and grade multiple choice papers or math papers or sometimes do other things like set up a new bulletin board or clean out a cabinet. Sometimes the teachers were around, but often they were having their break and planning period and would go to the teacher lounge and just leave us to it. There was also an autistic boy from a special ed program whose job was to come in and clean the boards and erasers and empty the trash cans. Kids in that program would do small jobs, get paid a small amount, and then once a week have a special outing to spend that money on candy at a store down the street. This is probably not an awesome educational model, but that's a whole other can of worms. Anyway, the boy - I remember him so clearly - was a complete mimic. He would "do" the morning announcements, commercials, snippets of TV shows, even some of the teachers. And it wasn't just random talking - he had trouble not talking nonstop, but it wasn't like he couldn't hold a conversation. Two of us clearly found it alternately funny and uncomfortable. Sometimes we'd laugh. Sometimes we'd try to redirect him into something like a conversation or back to wiping things down. Sometimes we'd ignore him. But one of the girls thought it was hilarious and she would basically egg him on. And also get him to say things that weren't really appropriate so she could laugh at him over it. He liked her the best. He clearly thought she was his friend and she encouraged that because it let her laugh at him more. He never seemed unhappy with her, but also, the other girl and I were made even more uncomfortable by her and him because of this. And being 13, neither of us ever really talked about it or articulated it.

When I look back now, I don't feel bad that I laughed at the things he said sometimes. He was actually really talented - sometimes I didn't understand at the time and something that I don't think was ever encouraged. He could have been an incredible actor and probably would have gotten a lot out of doing something like that. The education he was receiving makes me angry now - he was clearly capable of way more. And that other girl makes me angry. The way she treated him never got more than a very mild leave him alone from a teacher. No one ever said, this is wrong. But the effect of allowing him to think that someone who treated him that way was his friend cannot possibly have been a good one. It was practically encouraging him to think that others using him was a positive sign of friendship. How's that going to have worked out as he went out into the world? I just don't buy that ignorance was bliss across the board. I think he was hurt by that, even if he didn't connect it at the time.-

 

I agree that it was wrong to do those things.  I think it hurt the perpetrator and the other neurotypical people in the room.  However, I also think it was good that he didn't feel badly about it, and that he felt like he had a friend.

There is a good argument that this kind of unawareness is a gift to many people with ID.  Or some would call it a mercy.

As for what the teacher should have done, I think the perp should have been given some serious counseling on how to treat people with ID, but I certainly don't think the teachers should have made a big stink in front of the boy, given that he really did not know he was being disrespected.  Perhaps counseling for the boy would include getting him to talk about how he feels about those interactions - in case he really does understand more than he pretends to.  And I think nowadays, much more efforts are put into pairing special needs kids up with neurotypical kids so that they can hopefully have "real friends."

[Little Green Leaves]

I think respect is tremendously important. We don't all have the same abilities or the same skills, but we are all people worthy of respect. 

I remember Flowers for Algernon as a really pessimistic book. It's so bleak and I think it sets up a kind of weird choice between being oblivious and happy, on the one hand, and being "too smart" and lonely, on the other hand. 

I know people think there was something beautiful in the protagonist's innocent happiness as a disabled person. I just could never get past the sadness of it. If I remember right, the guys who worked with him made fun of him for wetting his pants or for becoming visibly aroused when a woman walked in. He was a running joke.

I wouldn't want that kind of friendship for anyone I love...I wouldn't even want an animal to be treated that way. I'm not saying we are always going to be perfectly understood, but nobody should be the constant butt of jokes.  

[Murphy101]

5 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

This is interesting.  My dad once shocked a friend of mine who saw him interacting with a high school friend of his, a gay black man. My dad (and really hia whole family) have always been terrible teases, and that's something that of course isn't part of every family culture but it's not uncommon here in some sub-cultures.  My dad was saying things that would not have been considered at all PC.   What I don't think she understood at all was that to be a gay black man when he and my dad were in high school was to be very marginalised indeed, it really wasn't at all acceptable in the black community here. That my dad not only accepted him, but treated him in the same way he treated everyone without acting as if it was a delicate topic, meant a lot to him, and ten they had been friends for something like 30 years, gone to the same group therapy for depression patients at one point in their lives, and so on.  

So yes, I do think you are right, you have to be careful about making assumptions about people and their relationship when you don't really know them very well. 

 

I would not assume anything of another.  I know women who are married to abusive aholes, but to those women? He is awesome and they think he is he best guy ever for them.  So many other relationships like that. 

My friends and I have been very close for 15-35 years. We are sisters in all but blood. In fact, it isn’t our actual sisters we ever call. But we talk to each other like sisters.  Tease and that one dozen times we did something embarrassing. And yeah, we are decidedly not PC to each other. LOL

But usually people can pick up on he vibe to tell if it’s like that or not.  Most people can tell when someone is feeling yucky or aggressive.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

39 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I think respect is tremendously important. We don't all have the same abilities or the same skills, but we are all people worthy of respect. 

I remember Flowers for Algernon as a really pessimistic book. It's so bleak and I think it sets up a kind of weird choice between being oblivious and happy, on the one hand, and being "too smart" and lonely, on the other hand. 

I know people think there was something beautiful in the protagonist's innocent happiness as a disabled person. I just could never get past the sadness of it. If I remember right, the guys who worked with him made fun of him for wetting his pants or for becoming visibly aroused when a woman walked in. He was a running joke.

I wouldn't want that kind of friendship for anyone I love...I wouldn't even want an animal to be treated that way. I'm not saying we are always going to be perfectly understood, but nobody should be the constant butt of jokes.  

Yes, it's a false dichotomy.  Lots of disabled kids (and I am trained in special ed) have friends and family who love them and value them and treat them kindly.  And obviously some people don't - whether they are disabled or not.  Of course someone who is disabled, especially if they have a more severe disability, cannot always advocate for themselves and that can mean that they are especially vulnerable to exploitation and abuse.  I would qualify some of this kind of bullying behavior to be abuse.  There is nothing beautiful in not knowing that you are abused or in not being able to stop it and perhaps putting a brave face on it. 

[Murphy101]

5 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

The second group, all the way.

 

Damn straight. Smartest happiest thing I ever did. I highly recommend it.  It’s really hard to hang out with toxic people and not end up getting poisoned. I also rate it as one the top 10 best parenting decisions I’ve ever made. 

[Farrar]

I have not generally found in my life that ignorance is bliss.

Not knowing or understanding something does not mean that it doesn't have fallout for our lives that's negative. Being mocked behind our backs or in front of our faces when we can't get it can still cause problems for us. Not knowing that something bad happened to a loved one doesn't stop it from having happened. Not understanding the risks of an action can still lead to it injuring us or destroying something. Not following negative current events doesn't stop them from affecting us.

I can see this all on a small scale. Not knowing that a young adult child is having trouble on a particular day can save someone worry. Not having someone tell you that your hat was really unflattering saves your embarrassment. White lies and delayed information and all that. But I don't think the small scale things hurt enough anyway. I don't think white lies are helpful except for the teller most of the time.

[Pam in CT]

 

To my reading, what came through Algernon and your first post, but even more so this one

23 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

10 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

I should clarify that when I said "respect" I did not mean admiration. I meant not mocking, bad-mouthing or bullying or using someone. What some of you have pointed out is that the author assumes that people with ID are obvious to being mocked. I don't think they are. They know it just like children know when they ar being mocked and it hurts them.

Still, I have seen people (without disabilities) who are at a vulnerable time of life being used or disrespected in some way who just ignore it and just smile. I have seen others who reject the person/people who is hurting them. Who is happier in the end?

...is not what I would label as an issue of "respect vs disrespect," but something more along the lines of "ignorance is bliss."  Is it better to be content as a pig in the mud, or is it better to be eternally filled with angst and dread at the existential state of the universe/ darkness at the heart of humanity/ the calamitous nuclear holocaust or climate catastrophe or whatever that looms before us.

Neither is a particularly spectacular option, right?  But your question centers on *how Algernon experiences his life,* not on whether others looking in from the outside would be willing to trade places with him.

I am pretty hesitant to romanticize/ label as positive the interior experience of a person with ID, any more than I'm comfortable romanticizing the interior experience of people who (for example) live in conditions of extreme poverty in picturesque pastoral places. If it's not a walk I would myself willingly trade for, and it isn't, I'm pretty reluctant to label it "contented."

 

 

But "respect" for me is a different dimension than that.The way I understand the dual usage of the word "respect" is much more along what Farrar is getting at here:

There's a great meme that talks about the two different meanings of respect and how they can be at odds for people.

Respect can mean "treat me like a person" or "treat me like an authority."

I think you can't possibly overvalue treating someone like a person. But sometimes when people say "respect" someone, they mean treat them with deference or as an authority or allow them particular liberties. And that is something that I don't think is necessary in all relationships or for all people.

and I would say that "respect" in the sense of "deferring to authority demanded solely as a condition of [age/ role/ gender] is overrated in many pockets of American society.  I'm with the several pp who indicated that true respect in the leadership sense of authority can only be *earned,* not something any of us are entitled to just by virtue of age or whatever.  

Everyone, no exceptions, certainly including people with ID, deserves to be treated like a person, with dignity and courtesy. That is different from deference or obedience.

[Xahm]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

I agree that it was wrong to do those things.  I think it hurt the perpetrator and the other neurotypical people in the room.  However, I also think it was good that he didn't feel badly about it, and that he felt like he had a friend.

There is a good argument that this kind of unawareness is a gift to many people with ID.  Or some would call it a mercy.

As for what the teacher should have done, I think the perp should have been given some serious counseling on how to treat people with ID, but I certainly don't think the teachers should have made a big stink in front of the boy, given that he really did not know he was being disrespected.  Perhaps counseling for the boy would include getting him to talk about how he feels about those interactions - in case he really does understand more than he pretends to.  And I think nowadays, much more efforts are put into pairing special needs kids up with neurotypical kids so that they can hopefully have "real friends."

I don't have direct experience with this, so I hope someone will show me my mistake if I'm wrong, but I think it would be vital to teach those with intellectual disabilities that not everyone who gives them attention and acts friendly is a real friend. There are lots of people who exploit those with disabilities, and I would think that trying to learn to avoid that would be a major life skills goal in an educational plan. It may have hurt the boy's feelings in the story above to have the mean girl called out on her behavior, but perhaps it could have prevented future heart ache.

[Farrar]

15 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

To my reading, what came through Algernon and your first post, but even more so this one

...is not what I would label as an issue of "respect vs disrespect," but something more along the lines of "ignorance is bliss."  Is it better to be content as a pig in the mud, or is it better to be eternally filled with angst and dread at the existential state of the universe/ darkness at the heart of humanity/ the calamitous nuclear holocaust or climate catastrophe or whatever that looms before us.

Neither is a particularly spectacular option, right?  But your question centers on *how Algernon experiences his life,* not on whether others looking in from the outside would be willing to trade places with him.

I am pretty hesitant to romanticize/ label as positive the interior experience of a person with ID, any more than I'm comfortable romanticizing the interior experience of people who (for example) live in conditions of extreme poverty in picturesque pastoral places. If it's not a walk I would myself willingly trade for, and it isn't, I'm pretty reluctant to label it "contented."

As a fable, I think Algernon works well because it elicits these types of discussions and is really thought-provoking. But what you say here is why it's also massively problematic - he's writing from this internal perspective that he has no experience with and which he romanticizes and manipulates for his purposes. He's using the character's disability to explore his own ideas and some of the potential conclusions are not really good for the disabled character. Like, in talking about ideas about respect and so forth, it's great. But when you get into the nitty gritty of the actual things Keyes is saying about an actual character, it gets so problematic.

[Rosie_0801]

43 minutes ago, Farrar said:

As a fable, I think Algernon works well because it elicits these types of discussions and is really thought-provoking. But what you say here is why it's also massively problematic - he's writing from this internal perspective that he has no experience with and which he romanticizes and manipulates for his purposes. He's using the character's disability to explore his own ideas and some of the potential conclusions are not really good for the disabled character. Like, in talking about ideas about respect and so forth, it's great. But when you get into the nitty gritty of the actual things Keyes is saying about an actual character, it gets so problematic.

 

I read an article on NT people doing this when they write autistic characters. The author of the article called it cultural appropriation.

 

4 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I think it sets up a kind of weird choice between being oblivious and happy, on the one hand, and being "too smart" and lonely, on the other hand. 

 

Is that a weird choice? It seems very much like real life to me.

[Garga]

At the beginning of the book, his coworkers make fun of him. Throughout the book, they see him getting smarter and they get kinda scared of him. Later, when he’s not smart again, they are the ones who have changed.  That’s the point of the book (I thought).  When someone else comes in and makes fun of him, the original coworkers now stand up for him because they see him as a person and realize that his state of intelligence doesn’t really matter.  He’s a person and they see him as such. 

I always thought that was the point of the book: to show us that whether we’re smart or not, we’re deserving of respect just because we’re people. The book was written back when people with disabilities were very actively looked down upon and it was socially acceptable and even expected to look down on them.  While people might treat those with disabilities badly today, it’s not really acceptable. We don’t like the bus driver who complains about the disabled person.  In the past, the entire bus would have probably agreed with the driver, but not today.

I thought the book was meant to teach us all a lesson on treating people with disabilities with respect.  I don’t think the book is meant to be “if you don’t know you’re being disrespected, you’re happy.”

 

[Murphy101]

On 9/24/2019 at 5:54 PM, xahm said:

I don't have direct experience with this, so I hope someone will show me my mistake if I'm wrong, but I think it would be vital to teach those with intellectual disabilities that not everyone who gives them attention and acts friendly is a real friend. There are lots of people who exploit those with disabilities, and I would think that trying to learn to avoid that would be a major life skills goal in an educational plan. It may have hurt the boy's feelings in the story above to have the mean girl called out on her behavior, but perhaps it could have prevented future heart ache.

 

YES!!! What she says x 1000!

I’m not sorry to say that ignorance is bliss is bullshit. As someone with a few children just enough on the spectrum to be screwed over for lack of social awareness but not see it coming as easily as most - that’s complete bullshit. 

As someone whose trusted completely and regretted it - it’s bullshit. 

I’ll admit it’s nice that a kid who doesn’t really understand social groupings can’t really be aware enough to be hurt about not being included. That’s a whole other thing from not understanding being the butt of jokes or people acting like friends to use them badly.  That’s not ignorance is bliss, that’s just condoning abuse of innocents because too many just don’t think those innocents are worth being treated kindly. And that’s bullshit. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Murphy101

[Bluegoat]

Quote

At the beginning of the book, his coworkers make fun of him. Throughout the book, they see him getting smarter and they get kinda scared of him. Later, when he’s not smart again, they are the ones who have changed.  That’s the point of the book (I thought).  

 

Yes, I took the OP to be talking about things that the book made her think of.  But I agree, I don't think that people being happier when they don't know they are being treated badly isn't really the major point.

 

Thinking about it now, the stiry makes me think of the Oliver Sacks account of the blind man who had never lives really as a sighted person except very early on (maybe not at all?) who had an operation to regain his sight. He had quite a nice life before the operation, and regaining his sight in many ways made it far worse.  It's a bit of a different story but I think what seems similar to me is the idea that a supposedly completely positive change in our circumstances, something that could be considered the correction of a major disability, could make you worse off in some unexpected way.  

[Garga]

38 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Yes, I took the OP to be talking about things that the book made her think of.  But I agree, I don't think that people being happier when they don't know they are being treated badly isn't really the major point.

 

Good point: she was just musing about something the book made her think of.

[Farrar]

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

I read an article on NT people doing this when they write autistic characters. The author of the article called it cultural appropriation.

Maybe this is an aside from the central conversation, but that seems like the wrong term for this to me. I'd need to think about it... it just seems like a different problem.

[Rosie_0801]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Maybe this is an aside from the central conversation, but that seems like the wrong term for this to me. I'd need to think about it... it just seems like a different problem.

 

It's the same in that it is using a caricature of a person as a plot point, no?

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

It's the same in that it is using a caricature of a person as a plot point, no?

 

That is not the definition of cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is taking over aspects of someone else’s culture and taking credit for it. 

What you are describing is stereotyping. 

[Rosie_0801]

8 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

That is not the definition of cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is taking over aspects of someone else’s culture and taking credit for it. 

What you are describing is stereotyping. 

 

Yes, it is stereotyping. Stereotyping can be experienced as a form of cultural appropriation. Making money from publishing a book is a way of taking credit.

[Farrar]

5 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Yes, it is stereotyping. Stereotyping can be experienced as a form of cultural appropriation. Making money from publishing a book is a way of taking credit.

Hm. I'm not sure if I totally agree. Both are problematic, but I think rooted in different causes. I'm just riffing here a bit, but maybe... Cultural appropriation uses culture. Stereotyping objectifies people and cultures.

I do think a NT author can potentially write a neurodiverse character without doing either.

[Rosie_0801]

6 hours ago, Farrar said:

Hm. I'm not sure if I totally agree. Both are problematic, but I think rooted in different causes. I'm just riffing here a bit, but maybe... Cultural appropriation uses culture. Stereotyping objectifies people and cultures.

I do think a NT author can potentially write a neurodiverse character without doing either.

 

Yes, it has been done.