Tiny positive progress page 3– hive input? . I am having a Horrible, no good, very bad day!!! Advice re uncooperative 17yo sons?

[HS Mom in NC]

18 hours ago, Pen said:

I don't have time to read through the whole thread yet, but I have read this original post, so that's what I'm addressing now.

I’ve said several times during week that helping around house and schoolwork (homework, studying) come first. At around 1 hour daily on average for each expected, but that if he has more schoolwork I’d accept less chore time.
I think he is probably testing me on that.

I suspect this is the root of the problem.  I couldn't tolerate living in a situation like this.  Seriously, I'd go batty if such vague "criteria" were set for me.  A lot of personality types couldn't handle this.  You need to set a specific list of chores and a specific deadline for each.  

He did around 30 minutes dish washing (we have no DW), over course of 3 days and walked the dog once as total “household” chores. He also takes care of his own laundry, has for years, and didn’t quit doing that. That’s maybe 10 min/day averaged over week. 

Um, what? Do you actually expect a teen to keep mental track of how many minutes per day they're doing chores?  Do you really expect their perception of how much time they've done (likely on the high end) to match up with the perception of how much the parent estimates they've done (likely on the low end.) I've never heard of this method of chores. The amount of time chores can take to complete vary widely.  Forget setting a time, this isn't shift work at a factory.  Assign a chore to be completed in its entirety and deadline.  It's either done by then or it isn't. 

The dishes he washed don’t equal the total he used however, and he has left plates in living room, on porch, out in rain, and near his exercise equipment.

So is the criteria based on time or proportion?  Either is a very strange way of dividing chores.  Again, neither of which I have ever heard of before.  

He got up asking what he could do as chores this morning to then go to his friends’. Completely reasonably imo, (though obviously not in his) I said no to him regarding going to his friend’s today. That doing a little on a morning he wants to do something special, especially if it involves picking up and cleaning up his own mess of prior days isn’t sufficient. 

I honestly don't think anyone could meet your idea of sufficient because it seems to me to be vague and evolving based on this post.

He said if that’s so then there’s no reward to helping out, and he isn’t going to help out with anything ever again. I said then he’s not going to be doing much ever again.  Etc, not good ... devolving  . Very much downward spiral .  

Or he's just inarticulate and doesn't know how to say, "You're vague and unclear about what you specifically want done and when.  If you would just give a list of tasks to complete and a deadline at the beginning of the week this would be so much simpler.  I'm not in your head.  You need to be clearer because this is an impossible situation."

We were headed toward lifetime grounding and permanent noncooperation.  

Yes, it's easy to assume he's being uncooperative, but the burden is on you to set up clear, reasonable expectations and you haven't done that.

What tasks does he need to complete daily?  Write it down.
What time do those tasks need to be completed each day?  Write it down.
What tasks does he need to complete weekly? Write it down.
What day and time do each of those weekly tasks need to be completed?  Write it down.
Post what you wrote down in a place you can both see it.

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Homeschool Mom in AZ
clarity

[Lang Syne Boardie]

12 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

I just want to pipe in here and say that I don't think 1 hour a day of chores is too much. Of course, I'm coming from a ranching perspective, but loading the coal boiler, feeding the calves twice a day, and maybe the cows (kids took turns on that), feeding sheep, etc. took more than an hour. Yeah, the kids switched to more outside stuff as they got older, but it takes everyone here doing way more than that to keep things running. I'm suggesting that we rent out the bunkhouse again, in exchange for 20 hours a month of chores--that just covers feeding every morning. We're in a housing crunch, and dh needs some help--his cancer treatments really have him knocked back. During plowing season, dd is already working 12+ a day for the county. I've taking over the shoveling, and we no longer use coal, but I can't run the loader to plow. And I'm not planning on learning. 😉 We no longer milk, nor do we have chickens, and we've pushed back lambing to the same time as calving, so I only have 6 weeks of 11 and 2 am checks. Dh does the 5 am, but when the kids were home, they had some checks. I did all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, trash, recycles, dishes, etc. and the kids took on more of the outside stuff. I expected ds to shovel the roof--he actually liked it! We had a list for everyone every day. Heads rolled if they didn't happen. Sure, there were times when things slid (not animal stuff, obviously) but everyone knew if we had a swim meet or branding or something, that yeah, Sunday afternoon was going to be a work time. 

 

I agree and disagree...I was the one who said that an hour of household chores is too much. I was thinking of bedmaking, laundry, washing dishes, dusting, vacuuming. Again, not because it's not important, but just because it's a daily battle to get boys this age to care about those things (or even see the need).

The part where I agree is about *work.* My boys were excused from diligent feather dusting because they were literally, physically working outside of the home. They did their own car repair, managed yard work and the stuff that dh usually does, when he was out of town working (like crawl space roof, chimney, HVAC chores), volunteer work with Civil Air Patrol, including search and rescue and encampment leadership, and worked 20 to 30 hours per week at their part-time jobs. They weren't liberated from the dishcloth to go play video games or navel gaze or hang out at the mall; they were working to pay for their own drivers ed, insurance, and cars, and to "achieve" in ways that earned them full merit scholarships.

 

[Pen]

33 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

I haven't read the whole thread but here's what I eventually learned about talking to my kids about their responsibilities: get them to create the plan. This is a technique of talking called motivational interviewing. If his plan needs to be refined, discuss and ask questions in such a way that he has to come up with the specifics. Or if he has trouble getting started, you could ask him if he would like help with that. The idea behind it is to not take away their autonomy and to let them be responsible in ways that they feel would work well for everyone involved. My kids range in age from mid-30s to 22. Motivational interviewing techniques have worked well in getting them to think about what they need to do and how to go about doing it.

Having said that, it sounds like you do this to some extent already and have a good relationship with your son.

 

Yes.

 I think I should look at some motivational interviewing examples on YouTube .  that might help. 

 

 

I was thinking to take a Ross Greene Collaborative Problem Solving approach... 

when he gets home today and after some food

to start with something along the lines of “so, yesterday you said you’re not going to help out around home ever again, I’m wondering what’s up with that?”

or I also have considered a more directed question like, “was that a real intention or just because you were angry and upset about not getting to go to the float making thing?”

Or to start with another aspect of situation, like,  ... still working on that...

maybe the problem of the too vague chores by time rather than specifics

 

”I asked some people’s thoughts about what happened between us on Sunday when you wanted to go to the float-making, and I was upset because chores hadn’t been being done. Most people think a large part of the problem is my fault for making “chores” and “helping” too vague. That you would need a specific chore chart list that you can follow. What do you think?”

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

16 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

 

I agree and disagree...I was the one who said that an hour of household chores is too much. I was thinking of bedmaking, laundry, washing dishes, dusting, vacuuming. Again, not because it's not important, but just because it's a daily battle to get boys this age to care about those things (or even see the need).

The part where I agree is about *work.* My boys were excused from diligent feather dusting because they were literally, physically working outside of the home. They did their own car repair, managed yard work and the stuff that dh usually does, when he was out of town working (like crawl space roof, chimney, HVAC chores), volunteer work with Civil Air Patrol, including search and rescue and encampment leadership, and worked 20 to 30 hours per week at their part-time jobs. They weren't liberated from the dishcloth to go play video games or navel gaze or hang out at the mall; they were working to pay for their own drivers ed, insurance, and cars, and to "achieve" in ways that earned them full merit scholarships.

 

 

And therein is a major problem where he’s not doing any of that.   

Again we are in somewhat of a Catch22 location/environment where he can’t get a job without being able to drive and without a car. 

So it’s an hour of doing chores taken away from working out and watching movies and hanging with his friends in Snapchat or other virtual space if not irl. 

 

Part of me is quite aggrieved and wants to say, “look, you are bigger and stronger than I am, so I can’t force you to do anything. But if you want anything beyond the bare minimum of a roof over your head and food in the fridge and freezer that you can prepare for yourself, and help with medical care if needed, you are going to need to help out.  I was probably wrong to ask you to put in an amount of time daily. Here’s the chore chart of what’s expected.” 

 

But I think results will be better if I start with a Collaborative Problem Solving type question. 

 

 

[katilac]

34 minutes ago, Pen said:

 when he gets home today and after some food

to start with something along the lines of “so, yesterday you said you’re not going to help out around home ever again, I’m wondering what’s up with that?”

or I also have considered a more directed question like, “was that a real intention or just because you were angry and upset about not getting to go to the float making thing?”

Or to start with another aspect of situation, like,  ... still working on that...

maybe the problem of the too vague chores by time rather than specifics

 

”I asked some people’s thoughts about what happened between us on Sunday when you wanted to go to the float-making, and I was upset because chores hadn’t been being done. Most people think a large part of the problem is my fault for making “chores” and “helping” too vague. That you would need a specific chore chart list that you can follow. What do you think?”

 

I wouldn't bring up him saying he would never help out again, that was said in the heat of the moment and it will just make him defensive. If he says it again, of course it needs to be addressed. 

I wouldn't say you were asking other people, many teens would be angry or embarrassed at being discussed (we don't know him, I get it, but teens aren't always reasonable). I would just say, maybe I've been too vague and we need to have a specific chore list. That is, if you really want to discuss it. I personally would just move to a specific chore list, lol. 

[MaBelle]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Could you explain what “it would hit the fan” would look like?  Or sound like? What would you say or do? 

Well, I'd remind them who pays for the groceries, their phones, their insurance and puts a roof over their head.  

We had a small rebellion from one child once.  When talking it over, trying to reason with them and listening to their complaints did not work we told said child to hand over phone and car keys and pack their bags.  It got the point across.  Just stated that if that was what the child (17) wanted to do that these were the consequences.  After our ultimatum the attitude was gone.   Of course this only works if your kids know you will follow through with circumstances.  Follow through on the little things and you don't have to worry about the big things because they know you mean what they say.

A relative will not do this with her children.  They run the house, (17 and 19) she does all the work, pays the bills, cleans up after them and does all their laundry.  And works three jobs.  She yells and threatens and never follows through.  They don't even listen to her.

ETA-  We gave our children a lot of responsibility and a lot of freedom to make choices.  Aside from our one little bump in the road our kids were doing their own things when the parents of most teens we knew were reining them in and having to curtail privileges.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by MaBelle

[Pen]

 

2 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

As an aside, what prevents you from getting a dishwasher?  Sister, I would be very unhappy without one of those.

 

 

I’ll probably reply to some of the earlier part of post later.  

But this part now.  Oh ugh.  Very Old house with grandfathered before current code stuff (electric plumbing...).  “They” Can’t install one!  It took me awhile to have someone explain that clearly.  The whole house situation is very difficult, not just lack of DW . 

I found a small portable DW in Consumer Reports with good reviews  that I want to get.  It too takes a bit of plumbing work, but  I’m hoping maybe by following YouTube vids I can diy it myself to make the faucet end right for connector.  I managed to change out my oven element following videos, so I’m hopeful of success. 

 This was supposed to have happened this last summer, but snafus and Intensive Driver Ed intervened.  

I need to reprioritize it.   Thanks for reminder.  I hope I can find my notes on it without having to start the CR process all over.  

 

I did have a big Portable some years back that was sort of able to hook up, but,  well what happened to it is too long a story...  It did not clean all that well but was certainly better than the current situation.  I hope that the one in CR will clean better.

 

Thanks!!!!!

this is potentially (if hook up can be done without running afoul of the laws and also not causing a terrible plumbing problem) an important, what would it be called? “Meta solution” ? at another level to a part of the problem.

[Pen]

Chore list and time issue revisited:

I am working on chore checklist.

photos of my progress so far—I’m very open to comments and making revisions!!!   I am quite sure it could be better.  Some seems more “rule” than task—but his room has open popcorn containers, and crumbles on floor, cookies etc that needs addressing as well as the dirty plates issue) 

 

If there’s a big project that I think fits well with a “teen guy thing” and would help hugely I think for forward progress, like moving heavyish stuff and clearing blackberries  (for example like cleaning out an area of stuff that impedes delivery of a portable Dishwasher!), and that for many parts take both of us (his muscles, my decisions) Can daily time for it, say 30 minutes each weekday 1 hour each weekend day (or 2 hours one day and 0 the other if there’s a special event) be specified?

or is that still too vague? 

It can’t be done in one go. 

 

Also, I don’t think I’m giving him ‘dog “walking” ‘ though I have not decided, but that or that sort of thing seems like it needs time specificity too— not shorter than 15 minutes (as that’s inadequate for dog to run and poop) around 20- 30 minutes is better. (But there’s an “it depends” aspect: due to weather, dog, hunters, other people out — all affect what can be done safely)

so as of now I do have time indicated , but if way to change that can be suggested, I would use a task not time basis.  

(Eating well and so on are on because I think that would help support everything else and judging by yesterday might not happen. ) 

Photos of my messy stabs at chart and check off: 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Pen
Trashed my first attempt at chore charts

[Pen]

PS my idea would be that we are starting fresh , as of today, Monday, and can have a family meeting on upcoming weekend to discuss how it is/isn’t working.  I’d also take input from Ds this afternoon.

(”Big In and Out” means weekly garbage and recycling taken out  to road—empty bins brought back up to house following day —  assigned it to Ds) 

I put both of us for many categories, meaning each individually responsible for own plates etc, not for each other’s) 

[prairiewindmomma]

Visually, I really struggle with that chart. And I have pretty strong EF.  It could not fly with at least 3 of my kids.

Also, there's a difference between, IMO, chores and personal care tasks (like taking supplements). If you need to make daily meds a check-in item (which ideally we don't at 17, but sometimes we do, and I've BTDT on this one), then go for it---but with a really, really, really strong push to making that completely independent. And I would add filling his pill box to his list also because that's an ADL task.

We have a rule that we only eat at the table. Period. It's not something on a list. It's just the rule. The end. We also water bottles with water only to float around the house.

I've got to do something Right Now (reminder alarm just went off), but I'll try to chime back in later. 

[Arcadia]

It’s too cluttered for my teens. It would be a visual overload even for my DS14 who is hyper organized.

DS14 use OneNote for his stuff and share as read only with me. DS13 is learning to do that. It is much easier for us as they could have a tab for each subject as well as for miscellaneous/chores. My kids like to check the box, they create their homework assignments lists as checklists.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Again, with that format of a to-do list, especially with all the underlinings and rationales, you are asking him to share your headspace and care about these things. It seems you want him to internalize the reasons, ponder over your list, and take on these concerns.

He's not going to read it and follow it every day.  He's more likely to tune you out even more. 😞

I would suggest a sign taped over the sink area - RINSE AND WASH ALL DISHES. And a big sign at the bottom of the stairs - NO FOOD OR DRINKS UPSTAIRS.

Tell him to take out the trash and take his meds in person, every day, and watch him do it. On the day you want the carport done, tell him that morning, and tell him you need to know what time of day he is going to do it. 

Before you hang the signs and tell him things directly (and watch him do chores like trash bins and dish rinsing), you'll need to know what the consequences are going to be if he refuses or ignores. That is *very* hard, he is so close to grown up that if he decides he is going to take food upstairs and let rotten dishes rot all over your property, and he won't take out the bins, and he won't help clean the carport...you are not going to be able to make him. What is your leverage, what are your options...

He is not going to care about the rationales. It will go best if he can't take food upstairs and must rinse and wash his dishes, simply because that's the home you want to live in. You refuse to live in his mess. 

Just my opinions! Take what you can use, disregard the rest; everybody in the thread is trying to help without judgment. I am sorry this is all so hard. I really feel for you. We did not have these extremes here, but we did have moments when I threatened that somebody (or several somebodies) would find themselves living in a tent in the backyard if they couldn't follow basic household rules of sanitation and manners! 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

My attention is a bit split with my girls destroying my kitchen (making cupcakes) but I just wanted to share what my ds17’s list looks like. 

meds

check email 

school 

make lunch (for him and me)

+ the day of the week chore:

Monday-trash (empty the house cans, everything to curb and back the next day)

Tuesday-dust and vacuum/mop floors

Wednesday-clean kids’ bathroom

Thursday-his laundry

Friday-mow and edge lawn, other yard tasks as assigned

Sunday-fill pill box

I really like the collaborative thinking model for problem solving—it’s a way to point out flaws in thinking without being confrontational about it. It shows you their thinking and they are resolving their issues. Most about what you guys are fighting over is household management. He wants all of the privilege and none of the responsibility. Super typical problem, but reality is that he is generating laundry and dishes and shedding dust—it’s not like he can totally skip out on his part in the household.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, I had a roommate in college who never washed her clothes. She just bought new outfits—daily. The old ones became a stack that literally took over the room a few months in. She ate out for all of her meals but if she brought in takeout she let everything sit where she left it...trash and rotting food bits. She was a horrible diva who was lucky enough her parents would cover $40k/year for her living (on top of rent and tuition).

I’d like to say she was an aberration, but I have met enough others like her to say it’s more common that one would think. 

Looking back, I would say EF issues were a good chunk of her problems (and for many others). My point in sharing the story is to say this is worth putting in the effort...focus on the behaviors, not the person, right?!!

[Pen]

Okay.  I will be redoing, simplify ing etc.  

May be delayed yet longer, but I hope better done! 

 

[Arcadia]

Maybe start with area cleaning? That is something my teens can understand and manage. As in keep their study area clean before going to bed. That includes bringing their cups/bowls/plates/trash to the kitchen and washing up their own dishes. 

Then maybe the take thrash out task. My kids need a chore/task to become habitual before they take on another task. They have never been able to commit more than one new task to habit at the same time (neither has my husband).

[Pen]

22 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Maybe start with area cleaning? That is something my teens can understand and manage. As in keep their study area clean before going to bed. That includes bringing their cups/bowls/plates/trash to the kitchen and washing up their own dishes. 

Then maybe the take thrash out task. My kids need a chore/task to become habitual before they take on another task. They have never been able to commit more than one new task to habit at the same time (neither has my husband).

 

Thanks. Yeah , I need to keep Atomic Habits sorts of principles in mind.  

 

 

[Pen]

 

Quote

 

Before you hang the signs and tell him things directly (and watch him do chores like trash bins and dish rinsing), you'll need to know what the consequences are going to be if he refuses or ignores. That is *very* hard, he is so close to grown up that if he decides he is going to take food upstairs and let rotten dishes rot all over your property, and he won't take out the bins, and he won't help clean the carport...you are not going to be able to make him. What is your leverage, what are your options...

 

I’m not sure what, if anything, will “work”.  It’s another reason for going back to the Collaborative Problem Solving (or motivational interviewing ) idea might work better than saying “this is what you have to do.”

leverage still possibly exists in form of rides to some degree for anything on the far side for biking. He could ask someone to pick him up, but hasn’t tended to do that so far    

Also perhaps leverage In regard  to working with him on the end parts of what’s needed for him to get his DL.  Or at least certainly to make it relatively easy for him to get it.  And maybe more generally on a relatively easier transition into adulting...  

But he is very immature for his age and may not have the EF development to recognize that.  

 

 

 

 

[Jaybee]

Here's a sample of ours with names changed. The next week is the opposite. I have the two charts saved on my computer and change the dates, printing them out about 6-8 weeks at a time. It doesn't cover everything you want done, but it's a lot easier to glance at and see what is there. Dh and I aren't on there, but we do have our specified chores as well.

Sample chore chart.doc

[Pen]

a short  while ago I initiated a collaborative problem solving (CPS) type talk.  

 I said too much.   Probably ended up with what teens view as “lecturing” (3 sentences or more, I think) rather than a single or 2 sentence CPS opening observation and “wondering what’s up with that” and departing with just that much said  ... 

But I also think letting bad feelings fester isn’t good.   

It was the sort of beginning that just initiates— he did take his earbuds out and appeared to listen. Didn’t reply (I didn’t expect him to at the time) and I left it with that I’d like to hear what he feels or thinks about what I said.  I ended up deciding, and talking about, our relationship more generally—

(but also did mention plates ...  )

I was a little tearful and shaky voiced

 

 

 

[Katy]

Dh suggests that after he scrubs all the moldy dishes that you consider using paper plates for him.

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, Katy said:

Dh suggests that after he scrubs all the moldy dishes that you consider using paper plates for him.

 

The moldy dishes aren’t scrubbed yet, but I already switched to paper plates for him as of last night dinner.  Or sandwiches on no plate. 

 

[Pen]

Seems like teen version of sippy  cup stage.  

[Pen]

I keep reminding myself that the human teen looks like an adult but it’s still only in caterpillar or grub stage.  

[Arcadia]

40 minutes ago, Katy said:

Dh suggests that after he scrubs all the moldy dishes that you consider using paper plates for him.

 

21 minutes ago, Pen said:

The moldy dishes aren’t scrubbed yet, but I already switched to paper plates for him as of last night dinner.  Or sandwiches on no plate. 

 

I tell my teens that I might charge them for the heavy duty paper plates and disposable utensils they use if they don’t wash their dishes. 

[kbutton]

On 9/15/2019 at 5:12 PM, Pen said:

He got up asking what he could do as chores this morning to then go to his friends’. Completely reasonably imo, (though obviously not in his) I said no to him regarding going to his friend’s today. That doing a little on a morning he wants to do something special, especially if it involves picking up and cleaning up his own mess of prior days isn’t sufficient. 

You've had lots of good advice that you seem like you're going to take, but I thought I'd mention two things...

This quote is where my son would've lost it. Unless we'd already said so, he would've assumed that his chores could be caught up at the last minute if there wasn't something else going on. He'd consider anything else a bait and switch. Furthermore, as a household, we are trying to get out kids to not be black white--we want them to learn to redistribute chores from less ideal times to more ideal times. While this is kind of the opposite as he is picking a less ideal time, it's a step to deciding how to productively allocate time when someone else is demanding something of you.

And two, we set an alarm for snacks--it's that big of a deal around here, lol! 

[prairiewindmomma]

44 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

May I suggest not engaging in a power struggle?  Merely use good humor and shape behavior with positive reinforcement.

Do you have any boxes?  Start by packing away all the dishes that you aren't using. When he asks about them, tell him they are only for people who value them and take care of them.  If he thinks he is one of those people, he can start with a bowl and a spoon and earn back the privilege by showing he can take care of them by washing, drying, and putting them away after each meal.  If he doesn't, he can use paper plates as long as he is willing to dispose of them properly.  If not, he is welcome to eat over the sink from the pot after you have served yourself if its a shared meal, or from the container if its something not cooked.  Be cheerful, but firm.  Perhaps he'll be willing to engage in conversation in  few days. At that time, you can inform him that you aren't running an inn and talk about the Little Red Hen and the concept of family working together to run the household. He can then decide what his contribution will be.  You can remove anything he isn't willing to help with that you don't want to to keep up with, and store it away/take it out of service.  For the bathroom, if he isn't willing to clean his, invite his cleaner friends over.  They'll get the message across faster than anything.

That seems dang inconvenient for her and not necessarily effective for him. At 17, honestly, his choice may be to just go be at his friends’ as much as he can.

This just seems petty, TBH, according to my 17yo. He said if he was stubborn, he would just use that one thing forever as spiteful obedience, knowing it was inconveniencing his mom to have to pack everything up. 😂 🙄

[prairiewindmomma]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

a short  while ago I initiated a collaborative problem solving (CPS) type talk.  

 I said too much.   Probably ended up with what teens view as “lecturing” (3 sentences or more, I think) rather than a single or 2 sentence CPS opening observation and “wondering what’s up with that” and departing with just that much said  ... 

But I also think letting bad feelings fester isn’t good.   

It was the sort of beginning that just initiates— he did take his earbuds out and appeared to listen. Didn’t reply (I didn’t expect him to at the time) and I left it with that I’d like to hear what he feels or thinks about what I said.  I ended up deciding, and talking about, our relationship more generally—

(but also did mention plates ...  )

I was a little tearful and shaky voiced

 

 

 

I think it was good you reached out. Keep loving on him and praise where you can. I find that goes way further than criticism in changing behavior.

[Pen]

8 hours ago, HeighHo said:

May I suggest not engaging in a power struggle?  Merely use good humor and shape behavior with positive reinforcement.

Do you have any boxes?  Start by packing away all the dishes that you aren't using. When he asks about them, tell him they are only for people who value them and take care of them.  If he thinks he is one of those people, he can start with a bowl and a spoon and earn back the privilege by showing he can take care of them by washing, drying, and putting them away after each meal.  If he doesn't, he can use paper plates as long as he is willing to dispose of them properly.  If not, he is welcome to eat over the sink from the pot after you have served yourself if its a shared meal, or from the container if its something not cooked.  Be cheerful, but firm.  Perhaps he'll be willing to engage in conversation in  few days. At that time, you can inform him that you aren't running an inn and talk about the Little Red Hen and the concept of family working together to run the household. He can then decide what his contribution will be.  You can remove anything he isn't willing to help with that you don't want to to keep up with, and store it away/take it out of service.  For the bathroom, if he isn't willing to clean his, invite his cleaner friends over.  They'll get the message across faster than anything.

 

I’ve tried some stuff like that in past.   And I’ve talked about all that, which is part of what ends up sounding like lecturing. 

It’s not been effective and not especially workable. Even when he was younger. 

There’s only one bathroom in this house, for example.  When he was little he worked with me to clean it, so he certainly has the skills for when he’s on his own. (Assuming he ends up living somewhere with a bathroom, and not under a bridge...)   I clean it now. And that’s not even on the table as an area that I am asking for a change from him.

 

I have tried the only paper plates thing before.  It will solve not ruining more real plates.  It is certainly easier for me or him to find mouldering paper plates and throw them away.

But it doesn’t change anything in a real way. 

Change will require probably both a small Atomic Habits approach and an inner desire to change.

 And it will have to have something he cares about as incentive.  Clothes, haircuts, rides to/from social events, help with getting Driver License, driving Insurance beyond what I’ve got for him now for with Learner Permit.    maybe he cares enough.     Maybe not.   

 

 

[Pen]

7 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

That seems dang inconvenient for her and not necessarily effective for him. At 17, honestly, his choice may be to just go be at his friends’ as much as he can.

This just seems petty, TBH, according to my 17yo. He said if he was stubborn, he would just use that one thing forever as spiteful obedience, knowing it was inconveniencing his mom to have to pack everything up. 😂 🙄

 

I don’t think my Ds would say that, but it seems Somewhat like him. 😏   

Mine may make a stubborn, “fine, then I just won’t eat” (or at least not at home) choice.   He’s 17 going on 12–though actually he was far more mature seeming at 12.  

And I also realize that some of what’s going on is a negative version of a drive to pull away from mom, an immature way of trying to be mature...   

 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

incentives create a power struggle. its not about him caring, its about saving face.  he needs an area of responsibility, something he owns and is the master of.

 

treat him as a person. he gets a social life, he gets the instruction he needs to launch, he gets the ordinary things everyone gets such as basic clothing and haircuts, and he gets responsibilities because he is living with others. 

 

For the bold:  such as?    

 

I’m not following how what you are saying in paragraph 2 is not itself a power struggle.    

He has been getting all sorts of things.  He isn’t giving back.  He isn’t taking responsibility. 

He doesn’t care about whether he eats on real plates or not. He’s fine with paper. Paper plates will help as a practical matter not to have ruined real plates.  

It is not a home feeling I especially like myself, but I can do that till he launches if need be. Whether that’s in 6 months or in 1.5 years.  And I probably don’t need to box them. I can probably just say, “Son, you’re eating from paper plates “ and he will.  We both do during frequent rural power outages anyway, so it’s something that a switch to isn’t hard. 

Okay, so assume there will then be paper plates with rotting and molding food lying around instead of real plates.  What makes him change?  

what or how to make that a saving of face versus incentive?  

And without talking? 

Isn’t not talking and making the result of what he does/doesn’t do clear in advance then part of the blindsiding issue? 

 

 

24 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

if not, its too much for him, and they are taken out of his realm until he agrees he is ready and wants to try again.  there is no discussion on this, it is what it is. 

 

 

And this agreement and wanting to try again is all to be done without any discussion?  How?

 I think all of this really is going to take enough maturity to be ready for some discussion. 

Especially because it isn’t an area where the showing readiness will necessarily be directly related to the area of what he can then use.  

Like, when the toddler stops throwing the unbreakable mug on the floor he can start using a real one.  

But mostly we don’t have that here.  He doesn’t care about plates. He doesn’t especially care about nutrition either. He would probably happily eat nothing but crackers from a box and cheese from a package, thus not need a plate at all.  But with only those items, he would go downhill in functioning. 

 

What would be a clear and logical precursor to getting to go to a pre homecoming activity?  That he would understand without any discussion? 

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

with all due respect, your lad gave a flip answer and didn't think it thru.  The goal here is that they think, not react emotionally.   Realize mom isn't inconvenienced packing up.  she can't use the dishes now, because they aren't ready for use, so it doesn't matter if the dishes are in a box (placed by her) or strewn throughout the dirty nest (placed by son) as the effect is the same..no one can use them.  This isn't a power struggle for mom,  and she isn't looking for 'obedience', but rather comprehension and a decision.  That requires lad to think beyond himself and consider the household.  As a young adult, he will have to do same and consider his actions on the community.  

 

 

What are you thinking I should do with the currently Uncleaned and still strewn around real plates? 

I am not supposed to be the servant, but should I box them in their dirty state as is? And where should I keep the dirty boxed up dishes? Or should I clean them before I box them? And how does that in any way help me, or him? Throw them out?

 

If Ds should clean them, how do you suggest I achieve getting him to do that?  

Especially how am I supposed to do that without words? 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Pen

[fairfarmhand]

So at a calm, comfortable time, perhaps bring this up:

son, you know I love you and you love me. I don’t want this to be an adversarial relationship. However you are becoming a man. The expectation that you will have all the fun and others will pick up your slack is something a little boy does. This is not only unattractive to me, but in the next few years young ladies will be looking for a man to spend time with. So it’s time to develop that manly sense of taking cars of yourself and those you care about.

(Young men really do want to be men) 

So I’m willing to let you take care of some of the more manly chores like x. However that doesn’t let you off the hook for being a total slob. I know that you don’t want a rat infested bug infested home, so getting food trash picked up is a big deal. Do you need a daily reminder for this or can you manage? (A daily reminder would be a cheerful “let’s get the trash sackedup. Check your room for food trash.”) 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by fairfarmhand

[Pen]

 

 

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

Me, I sent my teen to work.  He rec'd a lot of advice from the customers of the business and some from the owner, and some of that started him thinking.  My neighbors whose sons failed to line up summer jobs sent them right to work in family businesses. 

 

That sounds wonderful but I don’t have a way to “send my teen to work” nor do I have a family business for him. 

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

Loafing at this age is a disaster, they need heavy muscle work, and they need to be drawn into the adult life so they can gain skills and make informed choices. 

 

I agree in principle.  But how? 

 

5 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

So at a calm, comfortable time, perhaps bring this up:

son, you know I love you and you love me. I don’t want this to be an adversarial relationship. However you are becoming a man. The expectation that you will have all the fun and others will pick up your slack is something a little boy does. This is not only unattractive to me, but in the next few years young ladies will be looking for a man to spend time with. So it’s time to develop that manly sense of taking cars of yourself and those you care about.

(Young men really do want to be men) 

So I’m willing to let you take care of some of the more manly chores like x. However that doesn’t let you off the hook for being a total slob. I know that you don’t want a rat infested big infested home, so getting food trash picked up is a big deal. Do you need a daily reminder for this or can you manage? (A daily reminder would be a cheerful “let’s get the trash sackedup. Check your room for food trash.”) 

 

 

That sounds like a good plan. 

[Pen]

 

10 hours ago, kbutton said:

. Unless we'd already said so, he would've assumed that his chores could be caught up at the last minute if there wasn't something else going on. He'd consider anything else a bait and switch.

 

I had had already said so.  I had also given a warning the day before when there was still plenty of time to do it.

The difference was that —and especially in view of the whole dishes thing — I didn’t relent and allow a half assed sprint to do a few things as possible at the last minute to suffice because of feeling that social life is so important for teens. 

It is. 

But I reached — No.

I’m not actually preventing him having a social life. But I’m feeling done with being chauffeur to any non absolutely required event (going to play rehearsals and performances is required as part of his theater class; medical visits are required...) Maybe I’ll relent ...

But, frankly, I feel ready to let the dirty dishes sit where they are as a reminder to myself that I am done.  He steps up to plate or not.  

If he wants to, he can take an hour and bike to where his social event happens .   That’s up to him.  

10 hours ago, kbutton said:

Furthermore, as a household, we are trying to get out kids to not be black white--we want them to learn to redistribute chores from less ideal times to more ideal times. While this is kind of the opposite as he is picking a less ideal time, it's a step to deciding how to productively allocate time when someone else is demanding something of you.

 

That’s true.   I think a large part of the “hour” daily  idea is that I could really use his help with things that are not one person jobs. And one hour per day is really my own maximum that I can handle on that. 

I can be flexible according to his needs, as I have to be with my own chronic illness. 

However, there’s nothing bad about an hour after school for helping IMO — just that he doesn’t want to.  

He wants all the freedom of late teens / early adulthood.  No responsibility. 

Obviously not a unique situation for teens.  

 

10 hours ago, kbutton said:

And two, we set an alarm for snacks--it's that big of a deal around here, lol! 

 

Yes, good, an alarm for food is something I will implement starting immediately!

 

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

What ds and roomies did was pick them all up, wash them, and store them where the slob couldn't get them.  Those who agreed to use them responsibly had access and put them away, washed and dried, when done. 

How does that help you?  1. you reset to having clean dishes available when you need them  2. you do not have any future clutter, in the home or mind, on this topic.  3. your actions speak for themselves. You are a responsible person of character and integrity.

 

This is my normal dishes etc shelf as I like it. (Almost, the colander was moved because too hard to get to behind the utensils)  You want me to ?  Box them away ?  Lock them up?

So, and including things like the knives and utensils and baking sheets and pan lids (possibly beyond the edge of photo) — to cook dinner I would need go to a lock box ? Because anything he uses he leaves until it’s last hour before a special event he wants a ride to?   Where should I put them in their lock box? Basement? With chronic illness? 

Meanwhile I would buy paper plates, paper cups and plastic utensils — and take care of throwing them away as they end up on floor 

It’s not computing to me that an approach that may be working well for a young adult roommates  household is going to help me.  Or is going to move the current situation forward,

your young adults aren’t trying to raise their roommate to adulthood or teach him. At end of lease they can separate maybe permanently 

I would like a lifetime relationship with my young person. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Since days have gone by since you even posted about the rotted food dishes, in addition to the time it took for the rot to occur, I would absolutely toss them. All of them. I would make do with the paper plates and three pans from Goodwill before I would leave those dishes on my premises.

Is it possible to only allow your son to cook and use your kitchen under your supervision?  I mean entirely under your watchful eye, so you can supervise him eating only in the kitchen and washing his dishes when he's done? This gives you the opportunity to enforce home nutrition standards, as well. Not that you are force feeding him, but the normative experience of confronting a dinner plate with protein, complex carb, veg, fruit, fat, at a table with another person, daily.

Regarding the part-time job, meaningful physical work, driver's ed, and all that...this is extreme, but if you are unable to provide those things due to logistics of chauffeuring and dearth of opportunities, do you have a relative to which you could send him for awhile, who does live in a place where jobs are accessible?

It is extreme but many families have done it, down through time.

[Pen]

20 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

I also don't have a family business and live rural.  My relatives were no help, so I asked a friend. That gave a job lead, and we went from there.

 

 

I have a feeling that even though we both live “rural” our situations aren’t comparable.  

There’s really no outside job — other than rare, occasional (and not in fall) hay bucking — that he can get till he is able to drive.  

Cabs -- charge~$40 just to come out to where we are.  (So round trip by cab his local social event would be around $100) .  When he was ice skating and I was not well enough to drive him to an important skating event it was $80 to send him to city by cab. Another person there gave him a ride home.  If he had to use a cab round trip to get to a job it would be around double that $160, depending where exactly the job was. Afaik, there’s no work he can do currently that would cover that. 

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Since days have gone by since you even posted about the rotted food dishes, in addition to the time it took for the rot to occur, I would absolutely toss them. All of them. I would make do with the paper plates and three pans from Goodwill before I would leave those dishes on my premises.

I may do that.   They are Corelle and can be heat sterilized.  But it may not be worth the time and electricity. 

5 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Is it possible to only allow your son to cook and use your kitchen under your supervision?  I mean entirely under your watchful eye, so you can supervise him eating only in the kitchen and washing his dishes when he's done? This gives you the opportunity to enforce home nutrition standards, as well. Not that you are force feeding him, but the normative experience of confronting a dinner plate with protein, complex carb, veg, fruit, fat, at a table with another person, daily.

 

Yes. 

5 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Regarding the part-time job, meaningful physical work, driver's ed, and all that...this is extreme, but if you are unable to provide those things due to logistics of chauffeuring and dearth of opportunities, do you have a relative to which you could send him for awhile, who does live in a place where jobs are accessible?

It is extreme but many families have done it, down through time.

 

No.   And unfortunately it seems to be really hard to work out carpooling and ride shares to city. 

 I have considered getting  a rental apartment in town next summer (he’ll be 18 but isn’t ready for something like that on his own)  so he can get a launch into world of holding a job.  Using bike or bus to commute from town rental to job.

One set of neighbors basically did that when their teen was around that age.  Sort of moved to town for weekdays and returned to rural home weekends. But her Dad also worked in town so it helped him too. Though most families go the route of cars for teens.  

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

There was a time when my 16/17 year old son had a similar problem with dishes. I switched to paper plates for awhile. Then back to real plates with daily reminders of “I’m loading the dishwasher- got any plates?”  (In your case it could be “I am doing the dishes- got any plates?”  ). By the time he moved out (especially then) he started to care more about general cleanliness and it stopped being an issue. 

[Junie]

I think that a simpler solution to locking away dishes is to make a rule that there is no food allowed anywhere except the kitchen/dining room.  All dirty dishes need to be placed in the sink.  If you can get him to wash them, great; but I think that might be asking for too much change at once.

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Junie

[Arcadia]

28 minutes ago, Pen said:

I may do that.   They are Corelle and can be heat sterilized.  But it may not be worth the time and electricity. 

Would your son be willing to scrub them with vinegar and hot water? My relatives have plenty of Corelle bowls when I was a kid and sometimes dirty bowls get forgotten when they have plenty of guests.

DS14 is the one who gets “sugar crash” if he goes without snack/meals. He is also picky so he cooks, eats at his table and I watch him wash up.   We used to eat at the floor which is painful for my knees currently so we bought the Ikea Norden gateleg table. DS14 asked for “proper” afternoon tea and now we could do it. It’s his love language (giving him tea and snacks, buying the spices he needs for cooking).

[mumto2]

I didn’t see the photo’s but am assuming you have a fairly major situation involving many dishes, apparently Corelle.  I know people who use bleach when washing these but you might was a test run...my aunt bleached everything,  generously and definitely used Corelle dishes so it should be fine.  I would do this slowly a few dishes at a time placed in a bucket and covered with bleach.  Let them sit outdoors overnight.  The bleach should break down into essentially salt water within 24 hours as it sits in the bucket and any bacteria etc should be killed.  Bring inside and wash in hot soapy water.  Washing should be easy at this point.

Fwiw,  I don’t think I would ban him from dishes altogether I just think you need new house rules.....along the lines of food can only be consumed in blank areas and all dirty dishes must be placed on this counter or sink immediately.  No washed immediately because that will mean exceptions happen......

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

I may do that.   They are Corelle and can be heat sterilized.  But it may not be worth the time and electricity. 

 

Yes. 

 

No.   And unfortunately it seems to be really hard to work out carpooling and ride shares to city. 

 I have considered getting  a rental apartment in town next summer (he’ll be 18 but isn’t ready for something like that on his own)  so he can get a launch into world of holding a job.  Using bike or bus to commute from town rental to job.

One set of neighbors basically did that when their teen was around that age.  Sort of moved to town for weekdays and returned to rural home weekends. But her Dad also worked in town so it helped him too. Though most families go the route of cars for teens.  

 

One really nice thing about teens having jobs is 1. They're tireder when they're home so my teens have been less likely to argue about stupid things. 2. They get used to taking orders. 3. They have a sense of autonomy so that they;re less likely to dig in about stupid things. (generally) 4. They;re NOT HOME AS MUCH SLOBBING UP MY HOUSE. 

[fairfarmhand]

Another point to make in his learning to be a real man---

I get a sense that you want my respect as a man. I can get behind that. In fact, I look forward to the day that I am able to proudly look at you and see my son, a real man of character. But now I have to ask you, is that who you are right now? These situations are not so much about whether or not the television is dusty or there are crumbs under the table. In fact, if you were respectful of me and working hard and helping everywhere you could, I would be so glad to respect the man who you are becoming even if there were a few crumbs. But leaving giant messes and being angry when I ask you to help out is not respect worthy behavior. And I think you know this. Men don't sit around on their butts playing video games and having fun while their sick family members have to pick up their slack. That's what little boys do.

I love you so very much, But it is not loving to allow you to grow up and continue being a self centered little boy. I see your potential. You can be a wonderful father and a wonderful husband. I can see that! And I want more for you than you just sitting around on the couch, eating cheetos, and leaving messes in your mommy's house. To go far in this world, you're going to have to develop consideration for others, a work ethic, and a selfless attitude. I want that for you. I want you to be a real man. But learning to do those things starts right now, when you're 17 years old. You'll need to learn teamwork to be a good employee. You can learn that now by teaming up with me to make our household work. You'll need to learn consideration of others to be a good spouse. You can learn that right now. You'll need to learn self discipline to do the hard unfun things first before you have the fun...You learn that by doing chores before you go off to have fun and leave your sick mom to do them. 

This situation is not about me, Mom, throwing my weight around and bossing you. This is about the kind of man that you want to be and that I know you are capable of becoming. 

 

Perhaps worded a little more kindly. 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

There was a time when my 16/17 year old son had a similar problem with dishes. I switched to paper plates for awhile. Then back to real plates with daily reminders of “I’m loading the dishwasher- got any plates?”  (In your case it could be “I am doing the dishes- got any plates?”  ). By the time he moved out (especially then) he started to care more about general cleanliness and it stopped being an issue. 

 

Good.

Or, similarly,  I can do my own daily check around house, and areas like near work out area I now know are dish magnets...     Hah, or add my own little work out routine daily and check plates at same time.  

since I would like to wash up earlier than he gets home from school, and the morning routine is actually working well and I don’t want to change that now...

then paper plates for dinner for now, So reminder is just to throw out the plates.  Seems wasteful, but I think is best approach for this season of child raising...

 

 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

All jobs for an under 18 here are neighbors hiring neighbors for short term stuff like the hay bucking, lawn care, patio building, deck washing, child care, fence construction, etc.  Someone has to drive, and that can be a business partner if one goes into business for oneself or an employer if not....quite common for the farmer's pickup to be used to pick folks up on the way in.  Beyond that, kids travel 45 minutes into town for a job with the grocer, the Y, or a caterer.  One thing your lad might consider is the volunteer ambulance - he'll gain skills and get known, so he may pick up job offers.

 

 

I think it is so very hard to generalize from one place to another!  I probably make that error too when responding to threads!

 I even made that error when I first came here not understanding how different it was from other places I had lived.  

Under 18 isn’t the major bar for him here.  He can probably get a job as a bagger at grocery store at his current age.  That’s the main one currently.  (Though possibly he could get a job as ice skate rink, but they mainly go to hockey skaters, not figure skaters.) 

The major current bar is transportation.  And that is a reason I was so strongly working with him toward license all summer.  

 

 

[mathnerd]

4 hours ago, mumto2 said:

I didn’t see the photo’s but am assuming you have a fairly major situation involving many dishes, apparently Corelle.  I know people who use bleach when washing these but you might was a test run...my aunt bleached everything,  generously and definitely used Corelle dishes so it should be fine.  I would do this slowly a few dishes at a time placed in a bucket and covered with bleach.  Let them sit outdoors overnight.  The bleach should break down into essentially salt water within 24 hours as it sits in the bucket and any bacteria etc should be killed.  Bring inside and wash in hot soapy water.  Washing should be easy at this point.

Fwiw,  I don’t think I would ban him from dishes altogether I just think you need new house rules.....along the lines of food can only be consumed in blank areas and all dirty dishes must be placed on this counter or sink immediately.  No washed immediately because that will mean exceptions happen......

I have bleached corolle bowls that had forgotten and moldy leftovers in the fridge. The above method works (wear gloves, put them in a bucket and soak in diluted beach overnight) - in my case, I have found that soaking them in a hot water bucket with Finish brand dishwasher pod also works the same way but with no fumes - the enzymes break down the moldy residues - I also add a scoop of Oxiclean if I remember. On the next day, rinse everything off with a hose, load them into the dishwasher and run once on a hot setting. It would help him learn good habits if he did all of the above.

Some things that help with this situation:

1. Ban eating anywhere other than your kitchen table or dining table. That limits the areas to which the dishes can migrate to. In my house, I do not even allow my son to hold a banana in his hand and eat it anywhere other than the table because, he spills and I refuse to run around inspecting rooms for spills all the time.

2. Keep 2 sets of plates and utensils for your family out and put everything else in a cardboard box in your garage or storage room. He will soon find out that there is nothing to eat out of if he did not return his used dishes to the sink. 

3. Paper plates as you said above. You can deal with building habits when you get into a better schedule. (could you compost the plates so that they seem less wasteful?) 

[mathnerd]

27 minutes ago, Pen said:

 He can probably get a job as a bagger at grocery store at his current age.  That’s the main one currently.  (Though possibly he could get a job as ice skate rink, but they mainly go to hockey skaters, not figure skaters.) 

The major current bar is transportation.  

Any local job that he can commute to using a bicycle?

[Pen]

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

another resource you have in the community is the social worker or guidance counselor at the high school. they may have a program where students who are taking certain courses intern in the community to gain job experience.  

 

Yes, He can intern. He needs to be able to drive. And to have wheels.  We are working on that.  😉

Recommended is both a basic regular old paid job like bagging groceries, *and* an internship.  

He can possibly start that this coming spring. Certainly can this next summer if he’s got his DL etc. .  Next school year is tentatively looking like he will be able to have just 4 classes to graduate (if he passes everything this year)—so almost half the school day for work / internships .    Hopefully he can get all 4 in a block  not scattered throughout the day. 

(This year has a heavy schedule to knock off most of his state graduation requirements in order to allow next year to segue into work.) 

His Careers teacher was one of the teachers who alas left this year, but already offered herself to him as a reference and recommended that he ask the man he shadowed with last year essentially for an internship (told ds to contact him and offer to help for free in exchange for learning).  

Ds no longer wants to go into military as of now, but he also already has quite a high ASVAB in case he decides he does after all.  

Hmm.  I am feeling a little better about him not probably going to end up living under a bridge surrounded by moldy paper plates long term after all.