Tiny positive progress page 3– hive input? . I am having a Horrible, no good, very bad day!!! Advice re uncooperative 17yo sons?

[Pen]

We have had a bad morning. Both of us digging in our heels and it’s clearly not going in a good direction .  I told Ds that we need to talk about things when we are both in a better mood and can talk rationally.  Suggestions, advice would be appreciated.  Details below: 

 

Basic situation—he wanted to go to a friend’s house to play, socialize, and work on the class homecoming float.

I’ve said several times during week that helping around house and schoolwork (homework, studying) come first. At around 1 hour daily on average for each expected, but that if he has more schoolwork I’d accept less chore time.

I think he is probably testing me on that.

No home schoolwork or studying was done (he said he didn’t have any to do—I disagree in terms of ongoing studying so it doesn’t pile up later, but ... he’s mostly kept at least a B average, and I don’t feel like fighting beyond that...it’s part of why I stopped homeschooling—to not fight over schoolwork) over this past week.

 He did around 30 minutes dish washing (we have no DW), over course of 3 days and walked the dog once as total “household” chores. He also takes care of his own laundry, has for years, and didn’t quit doing that. That’s maybe 10 min/day averaged over week. 

The dishes he washed don’t equal the total he used however, and he has left plates in living room, on porch, out in rain, and near his exercise equipment.  

He got up asking what he could do as chores this morning to then go to his friends’. Completely reasonably imo, (though obviously not in his) I said no to him regarding going to his friend’s today. That doing a little on a morning he wants to do something special, especially if it involves picking up and cleaning up his own mess of prior days isn’t sufficient. 

He said if that’s so then there’s no reward to helping out, and he isn’t going to help out with anything ever again. I said then he’s not going to be doing much ever again.  Etc, not good ... devolving  . Very much downward spiral .  

We were headed toward lifetime grounding and permanent noncooperation.  

 

My mother called during this , um, ordeal, and hearing of the problem, asked what we had eaten... and it turned out in course of all this, we hadn’t had anything. No breakfast at all.  It was already late lunchtime.  So presume hangry played a significant part. 

I made cheesesteaks for him; just steak (because I’m gfcf) for me, and the overall bad,  tense atmosphere reduced ... somewhat.  

I think he would probably do better gf also, but didn’t think I could get him to eat a gf meal on top of the rest of what was going on.  He asked for grilled cheese sandwiches the steak part for more protein was a compromise.  

Back behind this may lurk that I was listening to Dave Ramsey yesterday and came away feeling like I was raising a lazy bum and no way would Dave let his kids get away with this. 😜 So it was probably a big surprise to Ds that I said No instead of letting the morning be a clean up mini marathon followed by going to his friend’s which might have been my approach in past...  

It isn’t terrible terrible— but I also feel like the wrong thing could lead to him deciding to leave home, school etc in a huff (or maybe worse) which I don’t think he is ready for— and I think could be a slippery slope into drugs etc.    I’m trying to not “awfulize” a bad morning or week and some piles of dirty dishes into images of him jobless, homeless, and under a bridge, and with addictions and no health insurance...   but I am, and think it has at least some validity as a concern. 

His more positive thrust direction would be toward finishing what is needed for driver license, getting part time job in Spring or a summer job, finishing high school (he’s redshirted so that would be 2021) and probably progressing toward a non college requiring career, starting out living at home as he makes that transition...

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Pen

[HomeAgain]

Bear in mind I'm the person who growled at an uncooperative 9yo today, "EAT.A.BANANA. NOW!"
😄
Life got better after that.

Now, for the teen years........I like having a firm frame of reference.  I write down what is necessary for the kid to do X, he can do it or not, but at least it's the same static conditions in both our heads.  If there's any question, I'd sit down and go over what was done in comparison to what I asked for.  When it's listed out on paper it's easier for both of us to see how it really is without personal feelings in the way.

My oldest is 20.  Treating these things as negotiations and clear expectations really helped our relationship a lot.

[MEmama]

First, ((hugs)). 

Second, I’m coming from a different direction. I would literally drop everything for DS to want to socialize and participate in homecoming. Seriously, I’d do so, so much to see that happen. Also, homework pretty much consumes his free time (all time that isn’t school hours or XC); I can’t even imagine only an hour of homework over a weekend. To see him actually finish and have real free time...I would rejoice. Seriously.

So if it were me I would have let him finish his homework, drop his chores, and go play. But I get that you’re in a different space, and I know full well how hard it is to backtrack from a rough start to a day/conversation that went south/etc. 

A good thing about teens is that they do understand  that parents sometimes overreact, or say the wrong thing, dig in too much or whatever the situation might be—and by the adult admitting it and owning it, the teen is allowed to reflect on their own behavior or expectations. I think if we can come back and be honest, they get it and respect being treated like an adult, plus it’s good modeling in the long term. We talk a lot about owning our mistakes as a vital aspect of adulting, that it’s strong, and that not doing so and not learning is a source of weakness. 

I hope the rest of your day improved. Parenting teens certainly comes with its challenges!

[prairiewindmomma]

When my manchild and I butt heads, I give it some time to blow over (the heat of the moment), make sure we’ve both eaten and then try to reconcile the relationship even if we don’t agree on the topic at hand. 

Fundamentally, my kid is a good person and I love him. He is also almost an adult and so I am letting go of the reins a lot. Where there are only two of you in the house, the dynamics are different than in many households. He is more on an equal, iykwim.

An hour of chores daily is vague. Leaving a mess is a concrete problem. I would clarify what you want more and see if he agrees and what he thinks his priorities should be.

[Junie]

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

When my manchild and I butt heads, I give it some time to blow over (the heat of the moment), make sure we’ve both eaten and then try to reconcile the relationship even if we don’t agree on the topic at hand. 

Fundamentally, my kid is a good person and I love him. He is also almost an adult and so I am letting go of the reins a lot. Where there are only two of you in the house, the dynamics are different than in many households. He is more on an equal, iykwim.

An hour of chores daily is vague. Leaving a mess is a concrete problem. I would clarify what you want more and see if he agrees and what he thinks his priorities should be.

This.

Also, I tend to give a lot of grace on things like this if the event is a special or one-time event.  For instance, I would treat a friend's birthday party differently than just hanging out at a friend's house eating pizza.

For the special event situation, I would tell them ahead of time that I will let them go, but next week I want them to do x, y, and z or they will lose privileges.  If they don't agree, then I wouldn't let them go.  And if they didn't follow through I wouldn't necessarily give as much grace next time.

[catz]

I would have had him running in circles all morning so he could go.  If I wanted him to get more done during the week, I would have been enforcing that on a daily basis instead of letting it come to a head on a day he had a special event.  I just sent my oldest to college.  Think about how you want to spend your last moments as a full time parent of this kid.  It sounds like you're both having a day and should have had a bite and a breather before engaging.  

[sassenach]

Hi, mom of a 17yo boy here. First, (((HUGS))). Second, I think you're being too vague.

List out, explicitly, exactly what he needs to accomplish in order for you to grant him his weekend freedom. I think a big part of the frustration is that it's unclear how much is "enough." 

For us, school-wise our standard is no missing assignments. That's it. I do not micromanage how or when he studies and completes his work. We just had a discussion yesterday about SAT study and my expectations on that, but I won't be forcing it for this round. We'll see how he does in November and go from there.

For our household, my expectation for all of my kids is that they will do their laundry, keep up with their room (my standards aren't super high), and keep their crap out of family spaces. Ds has trash duties, dd recycling. They rotate dog doo pick up. My only other standard is that if I ask you to do something, you do it. So most of the time I do the dishes, but if I say, "hey DS, I need you to unload the dishwasher before you go to bed" or "DD, can you please straighten the bathroom today?" then I expect it to get done. This is all very clear. There are no surprises. 

I think saying 1 hour a day is just too arbitrary. Give him a list. If it takes 15 min to accomplish, yay for him. And when he says, "what can I do?" give him a list. Are you done with your homework? Take the trash out and vacuum downstairs. Done. Hot tip- when ds has something he really wants to do, he doesn't even blink if I add something extra on to the to-do list. All he wants to do is go.

Godspeed to you!

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Mom of four sons here, three of which are now older than 17.

The schoolwork should be "do it until it's done, your time is your own once it's done," and the housework should be a very specific chore per day (or a weekly schedule). 17yo boys do not care about housework, and you can't make them be domestically focused around your house. They should have to chip in on some level, of course. Keep their stuff out of shared, main areas, deal with their laundry and trash in their room, and then something like mowing or weekly bathroom cleaning. But a full hour daily is too much. They need to be working, schooling, exercising, socializing; most of their lives should probably be away from the house and away from Mom. Make sure to have check-in times daily; mine used to talk to me when they got home from work. I knew what was going on.

We do our heaviest chore years in middle school, before jobs and activities become daily and onerous. We call it "home economics" and make sure each boy is fully trained in cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc., between age 11 and 14. That's because from 15 or 16 up, they're going to be like all the other older teens and basically eating and sleeping here. They'll be knocking out their chores quickly, on the way to something else (much like adults do). That's the other reason we do the training and long hours when they're younger, so that they will have the skills and knowledge to do it quickly as teens and adults.

I am not trying to be sexist about women's work vs. the manly needs of 17yo boys; it's just that I've never raised girls so I don't know what they're like at 17, and you asked about boys...

[Liz CA]

I think being very specific was always helpful. As in "this is what I expect / need from you. Can you /Do you agree to do this?" Having him offer his input and coming to a consensus what is doable and reasonable together seems important. This way he has agreed to something and now he needs to own it.  Perhaps a list of things that needs doing regularly will be helpful or however you both want to do it. The book "Boundaries with Teenagers" has lots of good advice IMHO.

I think I may let him go to the friend's house since they appear to be working on a project and ask to speak to him later when he is presumably in a better mood and outline exactly how you guys will proceed. Of course there may be other factors that play into this and you have your reasons for disallowing this.

Since he is not a child anymore but practically an adult he obviously knows that he would just need to bide his time and get out as you said. Of course, this is not the relationship you want with him on the cusp of transitioning from dependency to independency. 

ETA: I also considered schoolwork at this age his responsibility. If he maintains A-B averages without studying or without studying as much you think he should, I would be okay with it.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Liz CA

[fairfarmhand]

16 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

When my manchild and I butt heads, I give it some time to blow over (the heat of the moment), make sure we’ve both eaten and then try to reconcile the relationship even if we don’t agree on the topic at hand. 

Fundamentally, my kid is a good person and I love him. He is also almost an adult and so I am letting go of the reins a lot. Where there are only two of you in the house, the dynamics are different than in many households. He is more on an equal, iykwim.

An hour of chores daily is vague. Leaving a mess is a concrete problem. I would clarify what you want more and see if he agrees and what he thinks his priorities should be.

I think you were fine to do what you did today. This evening I would say “I can see how vague my requirements about chores are. Let’s make a checklist or time sheet so we can keep up with what is done and when it is done.”

 

[brehon]

53 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I have no advice. Just hugs. I recently came to the conclusions that teenagers are harder than toddlers. 

A.MEN!!!

[Liz CA]

45 minutes ago, brehon said:

A.MEN!!!

 

Yes absolutely. Toddlerhood is a walk in the park compared to launching another human being into this world. 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Liz CA

[Pen]

I agree that an hour for chores is vague. Could y’all help me non vague it?

one reason for the vague is that if “walking” dog is included, that’s about 20 min- half an hour right there.  So daily dog “walk” (substantial exercise and pooping time), plus regular clean up after himself plus his laundry plus one other small thing would be an hour .  That’s how the “hour”  originally was started.  

I think he and dog both like their time together and he can give dog a good run better than I can.  But if he isn’t doing it consistently then I do it when I can because while rewearing jeans that weren’t washed if necessary is okay, dog not getting exercise and poop needs met isn’t okay.  

(This has also been an issue between us, as the dog was chosen for Ds and was originally primarily ds’s dog but the less Ds does with dog the more and more dog has bonded with me.  They used to spend hours on adventures together, but now pretty much I do all the feeding, most of the exercising, most of the petting... ) 

It is good for me too to have the outside exercise time with dog,  but that leaves me less energy (I have a chronic illness) for other things, so I expect ds to pick up some slack. Like more dish washing, throw out the inside trash into the outside garbage cans or  bring garbage and recycle cans up or down driveway as needed, dust, vacuum, whatever... 

I agree that domestic duties don’t much appeal to teen boys.  But they are part of daily life.  If he were able to do something like clean out gutters and would prefer that, that’d be fine with me. But pretty much I am doing all the outside stuff or hiring someone for it. 

 

[Pen]

49 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I would have had him running in circles all morning so he could go. 

 

That’s what I used to tend to do.  Maybe I shoulda stuck with it.

49 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

If I wanted him to get more done during the week, I would have been enforcing that on a daily basis instead of letting it come to a head on a day he had a special event.  I just sent my oldest to college.  Think about how you want to spend your last moments as a full time parent of this kid.

Not like this! That’s for sure!

49 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

  It sounds like you're both having a day and should have had a bite and a breather before engaging.  

 

If we’d eaten there might not have been an engaging in first place.  

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Pen, I have a chronic illness. I hear you.

When I say that domestic duties don't appeal, I literally mean it can be almost impossible to get boys this age to do anything. It's weird, it's not fair, it's not realistic or right, but it's SO common. I do believe it's a developmental blip. I can tell you that my sons who checked out of domestic life by age 17, who are now 21 and 23, do their daily chores without complaint or comment. The early training paid off. The parents modeling home responsibilities paid off. But during that "go to war" phase or however you want to look at 17-18, they do not see it and don't care. Even if Mom is sick and even if they love their Mom.

I think your son would probably rather get a job to pay for housecleaning help than do it himself. He should probably do the lawn and gutter chores, during a specific, blocked time of the week. There's no reason he shouldn't be taking out the trash and walking the dog, but again, if that's listed as tasks-to-complete vs. hours logged, it will probably go better.

I think I would try moving toward that direction. Make him a deal about no more nagging about hours logged for schoolwork, as long as he keeps his grades up. Transfer the heavier outdoor jobs to him, at one time of the week when he can consistently do them. On the daily, he should walk the dog, take out the trash, deal with his own laundry, and not make extra work for you in the kitchen and main rooms of the house. That would possibly free you up to do the daily indoor chores? As part of the changing dynamic, I would think it is time for a job. These are the ways I would change this all up, to make him feel that he's out of the kitchen/dusting world but without exempting him from necessary contribution.

I hope this is helpful. That part when the teen boys check out at home is HARD. I am sure it's normal. I am sure they shouldn't be chore-free. But obviously something has to change. I hope it helps to know that everyone goes through this in some way. Be flexible and focus on the big picture, if you can.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Honestly?  I did not have a strict tit-for-tat relationship with either of my teens (one who is beyond 17 and one who is 17) by the time they were mid teens.  I would ask specifically for certain things to be done if they needed to be done.  I would appeal to them to step up to the plate if that was necessary.  Waiting to the end of the week and then not letting him do something that is obviously very important to him seems unnecessarily punitive and a bit of a blindside to me.  But neither of my kids need specific permission from me at that age to go see a friend - though I do like to know what they are doing and they do/did ask permission if they were going to be gone later than normal.  I treat my 17 year olds a bit more like roommates (though I am still the parent) and they have always risen to the challenge, so to speak. 

Oh and both of my kids have helped out a lot over the years but the emphasis has always been on us being a team around here - not on them doing it FOR me. 

[Liz CA]

Okay. Here is my attempt at non-vague:  🙂 (Making up the chores of course).

Rain gutters need to be cleaned out. If the job is too big for one day, east side first on one day, next day south side, etc. They need to be clean of leaves and debris.

Dog needs to be walked for about 30 minutes a day before noon (or whenever it fits with his schedule)

Ds washes dishes every other day. You wash every other day. Pick your days. All dishes need to be washed, dried and put away. 

Vacuuming /sweeping /any other things you need help with, distribute in the same fashion.

For special projects, car maintenance, landscaping, etc, I'd talk it over with him and find out what he is willing (or able) to do. The more you make this an equal responsibility issue, the more he is given an opportunity to make adult choices - for better or worse.

Consequences for non-performance or shoddy performance should also be agreed upon in advance so he knows what he is risking of losing. And there is no arguing then or should not be.

"Joe, the grass is not cut. This was on our list yesterday. We agreed xyz would happen if you didn't do it. Sorry, it came to this but you knew it ahead of time."

It's absolutely imperative you follow through with the consequences or everything is meaningless, HOWEVER, if there are extenuating circumstances - and only you get to decide what those are and think of some parameters ahead of time - you can offer grace too because when we really tried and something just went wrong, it's nice to get some grace. 

"Joe, the grass is not cut. This is not like you. Something big must have come up?" 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Liz CA

[Katy]

Add not leaving his own things or dishes around the house to the non-negotiable list.

I might exchange straight-A's and doing all chores for pretty much complete freedom, with the boundary of needing to know where he is.

[katilac]

What, am I the only one here who routinely puts off housework and then spends one morning catching up like a madman, lol? I wouldn't let him get by with doing just a little, but surely he could do quite a lot in the course of a morning. 

As others said: specific assignments and not a time frame (although of course take into consideration a reasonable amount of time per task, but some people do work very quickly and efficiently when motivated). 

If you are set on him doing so much per day, then you can't let a week go by without saying something if he doesn't. 

It would be so much simpler to just say: walk the dog every day, wash supper dishes everyday, sweep kitchen every day. And have it understood that there will be special projects from time to time (but try to give notice for those).

[Jaybee]

My boys are on either side of yours. We still use a chore chart (no stickers or cute pics, of course, just business) on the fridge that lists each thing to be done. It's specific, alternates weeks, and it is clear what is expected. Add-ons for irregular chores can be written in or verbal. With just the two of you, you can put yourself on the chart, and alternate household chores with him. Not all the chores are equal, time-wise or effort-wise, so that is why we alternate. There is some flexibility about the timing of main housecleaning due to...life. I don't worry about their rooms, generally. One is neat, one is a slob. The one who is a slob occasionally gets instruction from dh or me, "You need to clean your room before you leave on the trip." As far as schoolwork, when our one ds started ps, I told him at the first, "This is your responsibility. I am not going to be asking you all the time if you are doing your work. If you need help, I will be glad to see what I can do, but you are the one responsible to stay on top of things." I do follow the parent portal to see how things are going or if something needs to be addressed, but managing his time is up to him. If his grades start dropping or he does badly on a test, that is when I try to find out what is going on, but I don't plan his study time for him. He has risen to the task. This approach may or may not work as well for you. As others have said, specific chores rather than timing for them seems to work better. Dishwashing should mean all the dishes, not just some of them. Or, "I'll do the pots and pans, you can do the plates, cups, and utensils." Or you can do a wash-your-own-dishes rule (as dirtied), plus 2-3 pots/pans. Call-backs are for a job sloppily done. Before the weekend, I ask about any specific plans. If they have a busy weekend, I remind them to make sure their chores are done before they leave. This system works pretty well for us, but they aren't really complainers about the chores, which helps a lot. I try to always give them a simple thank you when they have completed something that benefits the family, because everybody likes to be appreciated. 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Pen, I have a chronic illness. I hear you.

When I say that domestic duties don't appeal, I literally mean it can be almost impossible to get boys this age to do anything. It's weird, it's not fair, it's not realistic or right, but it's SO common. I do believe it's a developmental blip. I can tell you that my sons who checked out of domestic life by age 17, who are now 21 and 23, do their daily chores without complaint or comment.

 

That’s reassuring!

Quote

The early training paid off. The parents modeling home responsibilities paid off. But during that "go to war" phase or however you want to look at 17-18, they do not see it and don't care. Even if Mom is sick and even if they love their Mom.

I think your son would probably rather get a job to pay for housecleaning help than do it himself.

 

Or  at least he’d rather get a job, yes.  He can’t effectively get a job till he gets his driver license in January.  This past summer was a big marathon of Driver Ed and driving practice.  I made focusing on Driver Ed and learning to drive a top priority.  He has had a small amount of local bucking hay work, gets to keep what he’s earned. But mostly there aren’t teen jobs in our rural area so he needs to be able to drive to city or be living in city to get a part time job.  No job he can get is going to cover either vehicle expenses or living in city expenses so I have been expecting to have to essentially fund his learning to work experience.   It isn’t his fault that we live where we live.

But— 

thinking about buying a vehicle for Ds to use when he’s doing this: (see photo possibly here or somewhere below, of his dirty dishes I found which is much larger part of my being upset than who takes out trash.  Please don’t quote photo, I’m going to delete it later) 

 

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He should probably do the lawn and gutter chores, during a specific, blocked time of the week.

 

There’s not really any lawn for him to do chores on .  Cutting back blackberry canes, maybe.  I’m not sure if he’s actually capable of doing the gutters.  

Quote

There's no reason he shouldn't be taking out the trash and walking the dog, but again, if that's listed as tasks-to-complete vs. hours logged, it will probably go better.

I can do the tasks to complete approach rather than time.  

That makes sense.  

Quote

I think I would try moving toward that direction. Make him a deal about no more nagging about hours logged for schoolwork, as long as he keeps his grades up.

That was deal last year. And it mostly seemed to work.  

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Transfer the heavier outdoor jobs to him, at one time of the week when he can consistently do them. On the daily, he should walk the dog, take out the trash, deal with his own laundry, and not make extra work for you in the kitchen and main rooms of the house. That would possibly free you up to do the daily indoor chores?

Probably.  Or it may be time to hire help. And let him manage to contribute more toward vehicle, car insurance etc when the time for that comes. 

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As part of the changing dynamic, I would think it is time for a job. These are the ways I would change this all up, to make him feel that he's out of the kitchen/dusting world but without exempting him from necessary contribution.

It is!  But as I’m not up to spending 3-4 hours per day being his chauffeur for a minimum wage job that has to wait a while yet. 

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I hope this is helpful. That part when the teen boys check out at home is HARD. I am sure it's normal. I am sure they shouldn't be chore-free. But obviously something has to change. I hope it helps to know that everyone goes through this in some way. Be flexible and focus on the big picture, if you can.

 

Yes.  Thank you! Very helpful!!!

  It does help to know that others go through it too!!!

 

ETA: okay guess enough people saw the dishes picture to understand why I’m feeling like ogre mom.  So I’m deleting it now. 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

The above picture goes with my dishes and tableware disappearing.  I found clumps of it in various states of rot and mold scattered about—his room, porch , lawn chair (at least that one was cleaned by rain), by exercise equipment... as not all missing items are accounted for there are probably more clumps around.  

Warring state is in part now about who is going to clean them.  I think probably I am because I am the one who cares.  But that’s going to add to the “No” on things he wants to do continuing bad spiral.  

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

My boys are on either side of yours. We still use a chore chart (no stickers or cute pics, of course, just business) on the fridge that lists each thing to be done. It's specific, alternates weeks, and it is clear what is expected. Add-ons for irregular chores can be written in or verbal. With just the two of you, you can put yourself on the chart, and alternate household chores with him. Not all the chores are equal, time-wise or effort-wise, so that is why we alternate. There is some flexibility about the timing of main housecleaning due to...life.

I like the back to chore charts idea. I am going to try that.  

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I don't worry about their rooms, generally. One is neat, one is a slob. The one who is a slob occasionally gets instruction from dh or me, "You need to clean your room before you leave on the trip." As far as schoolwork, when our one ds started ps, I told him at the first, "This is your responsibility. I am not going to be asking you all the time if you are doing your work. If you need help, I will be glad to see what I can do, but you are the one responsible to stay on top of things." I do follow the parent portal to see how things are going or if something needs to be addressed, but managing his time is up to him. If his grades start dropping or he does badly on a test, that is when I try to find out what is going on, but I don't plan his study time for him. He has risen to the task.

 

I had taken close to that same approach and it worked , mostly. 

He has some LDs . And can get into difficulties more easily than some kids. 

Last year he failed a class due to not getting work in it done.  He turned in a final significant project 1/3 complete.  

(ETA same could have happened in another class too, but its teacher, who more had his back, alerted me in time to push him to get that class’s final project done. Alas, she left his school now.) 

This year he has 4 classes with lots of reading and with dyslexia he needs not to leave it all till end IMO.  I spoke to a teacher who has him for 3 of the 4 heavy reading classes and alerted  her that though he’s one of strongest appearing readers in class for reading short passages aloud and has super comprehension and 99%ile on verbal parts of standardized tests last year,  he will fatigue and not be able to manage if he has piles of LA and History reading all piled up to do at once. 

She said she’ll work with him on time management and a check list along way for him to report to her on — so it isn’t an all or nothing situation at the end. She’s new so we don’t have prior experience with what she will actually do, but if she will actually follow through and do that it , I expect it will be excellent. 

That should allow me to back off to a large extent and he can just deal with her. And since she teaches 3/4 of his most intense classes that should mostly take care of his work load issues.  

It leaves a replacement for his failed class as being a little dicey (eta it’s not actually the same exact class over again), but he could still graduate on time even if he doesn’t pass it again this year.  (A similar checklist type system for that class would be nice, but the teacher won’t do it.)  actually I think it’s possibly only one semester he has to make up. After that it’s possible he can switch to a study hall and have a little more time to do a lot less work. 

Then he has 2 classes both with a teacher he’s had twice before who thinks he’s great and from whom he’s gotten A’s in past and likely will again this year.  

And then one more history class with another new unknown teacher, but which doesn’t seem as reading intense , and history tends to be his “thing” so it should be okay.  It’s usually a Freshman history class, but conflicted with his Spanish class so he’s taking it now.  (ETA:  And it’s world history which normally might be quite a lot, but he’s got a good background on that starting with SOTW in homeschooling.) 

Quote

This approach may or may not work as well for you. As others have said, specific chores rather than timing for them seems to work better.

 

I’ll go to specific chores.  That seems to be a universal suggestion here!!! 

 

timing was a hold over from homeschooling where subjects and chores were done with a timer and when it dinged he was done with that part of day and when the total time was done for day he was free to go play.  

It worked well then, but clearly isn’t now. 

So changing that.  

Quote

Dishwashing should mean all the dishes, not just some of them. Or, "I'll do the pots and pans, you can do the plates, cups, and utensils."

 

That’s the one I’d prefer.   I’m better at pots and pans.  And they cost more if they get ruined. 

Quote

Or you can do a wash-your-own-dishes rule (as dirtied), plus 2-3 pots/pans. Call-backs are for a job sloppily done. Before the weekend, I ask about any specific plans. If they have a busy weekend, I remind them to make sure their chores are done before they leave. This system works pretty well for us, but they aren't really complainers about the chores, which helps a lot. I try to always give them a simple thank you when they have completed something that benefits the family, because everybody likes to be appreciated. 

 

Thanks!!!   I need to remember the Thank you’s and hugs and so on right now! 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

I don’t feel ready to solve anything tonight, but don’t like people going to bed angry. 

I need an interim .

I guess a good dinner and some kind words and expression of hope for a better tomorrow.

[sassenach]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

I agree that an hour for chores is vague. Could y’all help me non vague it?

one reason for the vague is that if “walking” dog is included, that’s about 20 min- half an hour right there.  So daily dog “walk” (substantial exercise and pooping time), plus regular clean up after himself plus his laundry plus one other small thing would be an hour .  That’s how the “hour”  originally was started.  

I think he and dog both like their time together and he can give dog a good run better than I can.  But if he isn’t doing it consistently then I do it when I can because while rewearing jeans that weren’t washed if necessary is okay, dog not getting exercise and poop needs met isn’t okay.  

(This has also been an issue between us, as the dog was chosen for Ds and was originally primarily ds’s dog but the less Ds does with dog the more and more dog has bonded with me.  They used to spend hours on adventures together, but now pretty much I do all the feeding, most of the exercising, most of the petting... ) 

It is good for me too to have the outside exercise time with dog,  but that leaves me less energy (I have a chronic illness) for other things, so I expect ds to pick up some slack. Like more dish washing, throw out the inside trash into the outside garbage cans or  bring garbage and recycle cans up or down driveway as needed, dust, vacuum, whatever... 

I agree that domestic duties don’t much appeal to teen boys.  But they are part of daily life.  If he were able to do something like clean out gutters and would prefer that, that’d be fine with me. But pretty much I am doing all the outside stuff or hiring someone for it. 

 

I lean toward the method that works in my house, but I realize it won't work for everyone. I would say, dog walking is his job. If he can't get it done on a given day, then he needs to trade you for something you usually do. I would give him all trash chores, picking up after his stuff, and laundry. And maybe choose one more thing that's all his. Then I would say, and some days I'm going to feel like crap and I'll ask you to do something that's not usually your job, and I need you to be willing to step up and help out. 

But that would be it. I would do my best to not add to that stack except the occasional ask and not care if he gets it done quickly. 

I have paid my 17yo to clean the gutters since he was 12. It's a once a year job here. 

Is it just you two? After today, you might want to sit down with him and say, here is everything that needs to get done. We need a plan that works for both of us, let's figure it out. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Ending as peacefully as possible, and drafting your plans tomorrow, is an excellent strategy. The dishes, I'd be throwing them away and getting 25cent plates from the dollar store or something, but too-far-gone dishes are a trigger for me. I'm a super duper frugal tightwad but dishes that have had rot/mold, I just can't. I'm only saying this so you'll feel normal if it hits you the same way. LOL (I am nobody's definition of normal but.)

[sassenach]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

The above picture goes with my dishes and tableware disappearing.  I found clumps of it in various states of rot and mold scattered about—his room, porch , lawn chair (at least that one was cleaned by rain), by exercise equipment... as not all missing items are accounted for there are probably more clumps around.  

Warring state is in part now about who is going to clean them.  I think probably I am because I am the one who cares.  But that’s going to add to the “No” on things he wants to do continuing bad spiral.  

OK, dishes in rooms is one of my I will DIE ON THIS HILL things. Like, you will be punished. Which is not helpful for your current situation, but I just want you to know that I feel rage on your behalf over that.

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

That’s reassuring!

 

Or  at least he’d rather get a job, yes.  He can’t effectively get a job till he gets his driver license in January.  This past summer was a big marathon of Driver Ed and driving practice.  I made focusing on Driver Ed and learning to drive a top priority.  He has had a small amount of local bucking hay work, gets to keep what he’s earned. But mostly there aren’t teen jobs in our rural area so he needs to be able to drive to city or be living in city to get a part time job.  No job he can get is going to cover either vehicle expenses or living in city expenses so I have been expecting to have to essentially fund his learning to work experience.   It isn’t his fault that we live where we live.

But— 

thinking about buying a vehicle for Ds to use when he’s doing this: (see photo possibly here or somewhere below, of his dirty dishes I found which is much larger part of my being upset than who takes out trash.  Please don’t quote photo, I’m going to delete it later) 

 

 

There’s not really any lawn for him to do chores on .  Cutting back blackberry canes, maybe.  I’m not sure if he’s actually capable of doing the gutters.  

I can do the tasks to complete approach rather than time.  

That makes sense.  

That was deal last year. And it mostly seemed to work.  

Probably.  Or it may be time to hire help. And let him manage to contribute more toward vehicle, car insurance etc when the time for that comes. 

It is!  But as I’m not up to spending 3-4 hours per day being his chauffeur for a minimum wage job that has to wait a while yet. 

 

Yes.  Thank you! Very helpful!!!

  It does help to know that others go through it too!!!

 

I have an 18 yo. Regarding the gutters, my experience is that sometimes they need to try the hard things and discover they can actually do them. He might surprise you. My ds surprised me when he figured out on his own how to clean his bathroom sink that was clogged with his beard trimmings.

Regarding the dishes, my boyfriend (now dh) lived in a downstairs apt in a house. The landlady was showing the house to prospective renters and had given dh and roommate notice about coming into their apt. They forgot, so they quickly put away all the dishes, including the dirty ones, where they belonged. They didn't take the dirty dishes out and wash them after the visit, so I was finding dirty dishes in the cabinets for a long time. So, even a young 20 something might still not do the dishes right.

I agree with others regarding the concrete chore list. Writing a daily list down gave ds something to focus on when he knew he'd be out for most of the day. Doesn't mean we didn't still have to stay after him (he HATED mowing!), but generally things went smoother. He liked being able to cross things off his list. Frequently, though, how he cleaned wasn't how I cleaned. I had to decide if he needed to go back and reclean an area, which I knew would result in pushback. Sometimes I made him do the chore over and sometimes I ignored it.

Edited September 16, 2019 by wilrunner
Somehow hit enter before I finished typing.

[Ottakee]

Margaret in CO.....do you want a strong young 31 year old?  My son needs a lot of good physical activity and isn't getting it as much now that we are in town.  He has special needs but is a hard worker.....when we aren't in the midst of huge girlfriend drama 🤪.   I might even give him a one way ticket to CO.

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, Ds also operates best off of a list. He knows when it’s done, he’s done (unless an  emergency comes up).

Also, fwiw, Ds would be soaking the dishes overnight in a bucket of hot soapy water that would hang out on the porch (out of the house). If he whined I would toss him a pair of nitrile gloves and give him a death stare. Moldy dishes is a hill to die on, and, honestly, a health risk to me because it’s an asthma trigger. His mess, he cleans it up.

[Melissa in Australia]

just a note regarding the dog

 We got our children pets when they were teens... then found out that as they leave home the pets stayed behind.

 we now have ( are stuck with) a cockatiel and budgies

[Carrie12345]

I just want to say that you’re not alone!

Chore lists/standards/expectations are a source of conflict over here. They were with my 21yo ds, and now they are with my 16 and 17yo dds. Also with the little boys, but that’s still somehow different than with the teens.

I do try hard not to let it spill over too much into social activities and even less into group projects/commitments, but it has been known to happen.

And I have a secret I don’t want my kids to know.  I was a slob until I was about... 22ish? If you came to my house you might think I still am, but it’s mostly because I have married and spawned slobs and they consider me a “perfectionist” who’s standards they can’t meet. It might not be terrible if I weren’t so outnumbered!

No real advice here, other than to say that a 17yo isn’t doomed to always be a slob if you let them live long enough to find out.

[HomeAgain]

8 hours ago, sassenach said:

OK, dishes in rooms is one of my I will DIE ON THIS HILL things. Like, you will be punished. Which is not helpful for your current situation, but I just want you to know that I feel rage on your behalf over that.

Yeah, me too.  I flat out tell my kids, "Your future roommates and girlfriends/wives won't appreciate this sort of @#$!.  Therefore, you're not going to do it here and I'm going to make sure of it."
Sometimes it has to be a line drawn moment like that to protect future relationships. I can say that if it got as bad as it was in the picture at home, I would have my kid buy me new dishes to replace the ruined ones.

[Pen]

13 hours ago, MEmama said:

First, ((hugs)). 

Second, I’m coming from a different direction. I would literally drop everything for DS to want to socialize and participate in homecoming. Seriously, I’d do so, so much to see that happen. Also, homework pretty much consumes his free time (all time that isn’t school hours or XC); I can’t even imagine only an hour of homework over a weekend. To see him actually finish and have real free time...I would rejoice. Seriously.

So if it were me I would have let him finish his homework, drop his chores, and go play. But I get that you’re in a different space, and I know full well how hard it is to backtrack from a rough start to a day/conversation that went south/etc. 

A good thing about teens is that they do understand  that parents sometimes overreact, or say the wrong thing, dig in too much or whatever the situation might be—and by the adult admitting it and owning it, the teen is allowed to reflect on their own behavior or expectations. I think if we can come back and be honest, they get it and respect being treated like an adult, plus it’s good modeling in the long term. We talk a lot about owning our mistakes as a vital aspect of adulting, that it’s strong, and that not doing so and not learning is a source of weakness. 

I hope the rest of your day improved. Parenting teens certainly comes with its challenges!

 

To clarify— it’s my personal opinion that he would be well served if he were to do an hour per day schoolwork.  

He is actually doing zero homework, zero studying etc.   Zero as regards regular schoolwork, zero as regards PSAT review etc. 

(I think he’s making a mistake, for his own life, but it’s not a “hill for me to die on.” )  

IIRC, Every special event thing like prior homecomings, dances, weekends  with friends, chance to see a movie with a friend, prior to yesterday I did let him go to.  Even if things were in pretty poor shape because I thought the social very important for him. 

 

Yesterday, (and given the state of dishes etc.,) I reached, “No.” 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Pen

[moonflower]

It's hard when you reach "no," whether they're 7 or 17.

[Pen]

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

just a note regarding the dog

 We got our children pets when they were teens... then found out that as they leave home the pets stayed behind.

 we now have ( are stuck with) a cockatiel and budgies

 

Luckily I’m a “dog” person, so it’s okay that dog(s) remain(s). We won’t take on any animals from here forward that aren’t primarily mine to start with I don’t think.

And as I thought about it overnight I am close to a decision that dog walking should be my chore.  There are too many times when Ds can’t do it because of activities, or darkness, or whatever that it isn’t a good regular chore for him at this stage. 

Clean up of all his own dishes etc at minimum (while I do mine plus pots and pans) or all dishes and tableware and I do all pots and pans even better.  

[Pen]

1 minute ago, moonflower said:

It's hard when you reach "no," whether they're 7 or 17.

 

And bad if it happens during distress and without proper food for day, rather than in a carefully thought out and prepared for way. 

[moonflower]

And while I agree that very explicit and concrete requirements (do the dishes, walk the dog, etc.) are more effective and easier to handle than more vague ones (clean for an hour), I also think it's not a terrible life lesson to learn that if you skate by on someone's good will for a long time, doing the bare minimum and/or leaving a mess behind you, one day they might just say that's it, I've had ENOUGH and react in an unpredictable and unpleasant way.  

[moonflower]

Just now, Pen said:

 

And bad if it happens during distress and without proper food for day, rather than in a carefully thought out and prepared for way. 

 

Yes, it is harder then, definitely.  But then again, that hard "no" is sometimes naturally reached at such a time, because it takes extremity to really get some generally good-natured people to their breaking point.  Not all of life will be carefully prepared for and thought out, and that is okay; that's why you clean up after yourself instead of leaving an increasing pile of mess everywhere - so that you don't encroach gradually on the goodwill of the people you're living with.

[Pen]

@Margaret in CO I think if my kid had a stint in your bunkhouse and working your farm he’d be a better man for it! 

[MaBelle]

If one of mine said they weren't going to ever help with anything again it would hit the fan.  I do not get picking up and cleaning up after kids.

 

 

[mumto2]

Hugs........My Ds needs detailed info and lots of reminding, always has.   Who am I kidding?  Dd does too..........We have a few constant chores that I like help with and if I ask for help with anything I expect to receive help.

  Personally I would tackle the dishes first..........as in they must be returned to kitchen.  I wonder if he doesn’t return so he doesn’t have to wash them?  Have him include a walk around and collection as part of the assigned chore.   Anyway I would start there and add in bits of other things for awhile that make your life that day easier.  Ds please take the trash out,  walk the dog first, etc.  

[Pen]

54 minutes ago, MaBelle said:

If one of mine said they weren't going to ever help with anything again it would hit the fan.  I do not get picking up and cleaning up after kids.

 

 

 

Could you explain what “it would hit the fan” would look like?  Or sound like? What would you say or do? 

[SanDiegoMom]

I think I make the most brinksmanship parental statements to my kids after reading a book or watching some new parental advice video.  The kids, however, don't have that same sense of urgency,  so they end up feeling blindsided when things suddenly change and whatever they are doing is now wrong. 

Even at 17 there is still time.   And if they launch with no skills around the house? Well, then they will have to learn them when they have an apartment or their own house.  I was petrified over my daughter's sloppiness and had visions of her roommates complaining about her. But turns out everyone else is rather messy too.  I know, I saw the room halfway through the school year.  My daughter's side was actually the cleanest! I was shocked.  She even makes her bed now at almost 20, and she NEVER did before.  EVER. 

 

[fairfarmhand]

6 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

At 17, he will be taking pride in what he does do that his friends cannot.  Ds had friends that were finally put on the lawnmower at 17 when their parents had enough...quite humorous as they started texting for how to start it when the angry parent left the scene.  Tire changing and how to talk to the person at the tire shop was next at 19.  His own eye opener at 15 was us dropping a friend off from a scout weekend where they had hiked 50 miles...the dad chit chatted and then told son to get the yard mowed before lunch as it was his responsibility to get his Saturday chores done.  So, yep, give out that gutter chore after you do the training w/safety pointers, and make sure you have the first aid plans. Adult freedoms mean adult responsibilities here.  And we are a Little Red Hen culture. No freeloading and no inviting pests in the home.

 

Yes! Same here. All my kids mow as soon at they’re heavy enough to not flip the safety switch in the seat. And I’ve had friends shocked that my GIRLS do these things too. And I’ve watched my kids brag about this stuff to their friends “heck yeah! I’ve had to cut grass since I was 12. My parents are total slave drivers.” 

Theyre not being totally serious but they can usually trump their friends on the “I have it worse than you” complaints.

[Heathermomster]

You know that my DS started working with the CBT at the end of 10th grade and worked with him for about 12 months.  DS also met with the same CBT over the summer.   I say this to agree that ages 16-18 are hard and ages 19-20 are not without their challenges. 

There has to be some way to make the situation a win-win.  Like, he needs to understand that you will give him more freedoms if he exercises maturity and completes the tasks that you assign to him on time and without complaining.  Your reward is a walked dog, some clean laundry, and clean dishes.  You both are rewarded by a moderately clean home and a mutually respectful relationship.

The fact is that you are his mother and are responsible for loving him, providing him a home with food, and raising him into a responsible adult.  You didn’t choose to be chronically ill.  You love him and require his help around the house.  Just tell him straight up that you love him and that you are playing on the same team.  You want to help him and you’d like to see him be successful.  Give him a specific list with the chores.  He needs to demonstrate that he is completing his school work and studying well enough to pass school.  If he does as you ask, all the better.  If not, there are consequences.  Be careful not to nag, lose your temper, or make excuses for him.  If he’s hungry, he can feed himself.

I’m assuming that everything was spelled out nice and neat and that nothing prevented him from doing what needed to be done.  If he knew he had to complete the chores to hang with his friends and he failed to complete the chores, he has no one to blame but himself.  You are only guilty of loving him so much that you are willing to hold him accountable for his actions.  If there is an obstacle that prevents him from completing the chores, he needs to tell you.  Did he forget?  Does he need electronic reminders?  What can be done to improve motivation?  Ask him how he wants to be reminded so you don’t nag and then build in the reminders as a team.

In 11th and 12th grades, DS benefitted from heavy exercise.  He emptied the dishwasher, rotated laundry, took out the trash, watched his sister, and cleaned/mowed the yard.  I expected dirty laundry to go in a basket.  We folded laundry as a family.  DS now gets up on time, does his own laundry, studies, and feeds himself.  He keeps his dorm room surprisingly clean.  Things do get better.  Just remind your boy that you love him and that you want what he wants.  BTW, the reminders, set-backs, and successes are not a one off.  You will be cycling back and forth for awhile, but the instances will decrease.

As an aside, what prevents you from getting a dishwasher?  Sister, I would be very unhappy without one of those.

 

[Katy]

So the dishes were in that state when DS was throwing a fit about not being able to go?

bwahahaha, that changes my perception dramatically.  I thought you were being vague, but not allowing your possessions to be essentially stolen and left to rot all around your property is not out of line with common sense.

Clean the dishes.  Stop leaving them to rot.  Change your attitude and be responsible.  Then talk to me next week.

[KathyBC]

18 hours ago, Pen said:

 

He got up asking what he could do as chores this morning to then go to his friends’. Completely reasonably imo, (though obviously not in his) I said no to him regarding going to his friend’s today. That doing a little on a morning he wants to do something special, especially if it involves picking up and cleaning up his own mess of prior days isn’t sufficient. 

He said if that’s so then there’s no reward to helping out, and he isn’t going to help out with anything ever again. I said then he’s not going to be doing much ever again.  Etc, not good ... devolving  . Very much downward spiral .  

 

Glad you figured out the hangry part of things. IMO it is a legitimate life choice for adults to do a bare minimum of housework on busy days, and then do a mini-marathon on a day off, motivated by a nice reward like visiting a friend. I don't see it as allowing a child to "get away with something". This is why I do not listen to podcasts by people who make me feel this way.

ETA: I feel the dirty dishes left abandoned pain. It does seem to be a stage they can grow out of.

Okay, I missed the pictures, so maybe I'm missing some context here. Glad to hear things seem to be getting sorted out.

Edited September 16, 2019 by KathyBC

[BeachGal]

I haven't read the whole thread but here's what I eventually learned about talking to my kids about their responsibilities: get them to create the plan. This is a technique of talking called motivational interviewing. If his plan needs to be refined, discuss and ask questions in such a way that he has to come up with the specifics. Or if he has trouble getting started, you could ask him if he would like help with that. The idea behind it is to not take away their autonomy and to let them be responsible in ways that they feel would work well for everyone involved. My kids range in age from mid-30s to 22. Motivational interviewing techniques have worked well in getting them to think about what they need to do and how to go about doing it.

Having said that, it sounds like you do this to some extent already and have a good relationship with your son.

Edited September 16, 2019 by BeachGal

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, KathyBC said:

Glad you figured out the hangry part of things. IMO it is a legitimate life choice for adults to do a bare minimum of housework on busy days, and then do a mini-marathon on a day off, motivated by a nice reward like visiting a friend. I don't see it as allowing a child to "get away with something". This is why I do not listen to podcasts by people who make me feel this way.

ETA: I feel the dirty dishes left abandoned pain. It does seem to be a stage they can grow out of.

 

The reason it feels like “getting away with something” is primarily that giving dog/cat suitable uneaten food to dog/cat, compost suitable uneaten food into compost, and any remaining wiped into garbage when it’s still fresh , then washing the plate, takes relatively little time and doesn’t leave nasty discolored dishes. Waiting till a day when there’s a desired activity means it has turned into a distressing and difficult and much more time consuming task.

plus possibly attracting vermin

 

a few weeks ago he asked me to slice cheese for him and I said, hmm you’re almost 18, I guess I need to give some remedial cheese slicing lessons.  He said, oh no, I know how to slice cheese.  I’m just lazy.

He did then start doing it for himself. 

So I think we need remedial industriousness and non procrastination—and maybe he’ll say, oh, I know how...    and start doing it...