Interesting NYT article offers an inside look at Trinity's admissions

[chiguirre]

This is one of the best explanations of how admissions are influenced by ability to pay and USNWR rankings that I've read. What a Gordian knot!

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/college-admissions-paul-tough.html

[Hoggirl]

Ugh - paywall.

[Sneezyone]

Enlightening but unsurprising.

[chiguirre]

35 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

Ugh - paywall.

Try incognito in Chrome.

[RootAnn]

It was interesting. Always suspected but this confirmed that ability to pay is top dog. But, the data on test optional is interesting.

Plus, we know that test prep can increase scores  on SAT/ACT.

I kept waiting for the journalist/writer to make a further comment on all the wealthy/ high scoring/ low grades males but he never took the bait. He just put the data out there. 

[Frances]

24 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

It was interesting. Always suspected but this confirmed that ability to pay is top dog. But, the data on test optional is interesting.

Plus, we know that test prep can increase scores  on SAT/ACT.

I kept waiting for the journalist/writer to make a further comment on all the wealthy/ high scoring/ low grades males but he never took the bait. He just put the data out there. 

Lots of the comments attributed it to them attending much more rigorous schools with less grade inflation or difficult curves and also typical adolescent behavior by some. 

It does seem like the new SAT is more likely to be influenced by test prep, since it’s become somewhat more of an achievement test, like the ACT, and less of an intelligence test. Fortunately, there are more free resources than ever before with Khan Academy’s offerings in addition to libraries.

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Frances said:

Lots of the comments attributed it to them attending much more rigorous schools with less grade inflation or difficult curves and also typical adolescent behavior by some. 

It does seem like the new SAT is more likely to be influenced by test prep, since it’s become somewhat more of an achievement test, like the ACT, and less of an intelligence test. Fortunately, there are more free resources than ever before with Khan Academy’s offerings in addition to libraries.

 

Wealthy male teens have more adolescent behavior issues than low income teens, males or females?

[RootAnn]

Well, I can't speak to the wealthy part, but my brothers are/were smart but did not work up to their potential in terms of grades. However, they also did not score highly on the ACT. They had to find their passion & motivation before they would work hard.

Could the stereotype be that they think/believe things would be handed to them because their families gave $$? And it affects more the males than the females in terms of trends/data?

I have nieces that have top grades but low standardized scores. I would not say they are low income, though...

[catz]

I'm glad I was able to read this.  Great article.  Totally unsurprising to me.  I've always thought need blind is a myth.  Schools can well identify the different income levels of students.  I had no idea Trinity University was SO high income (average - 257K)

This is an interesting read too along a similar vein.  

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/5/1/18311548/college-admissions-secrets-myths

I thought this video was interesting too.  A young woman went in and looked at her admissions file at an Ivy.  I actually know a number of students like this that have gotten into high end private schools.  Urban public schools kids with highly educated upper middle to upper class parents.  It's like the schools feel the students fill some sort of diversity demographic but also know they can pay.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ1ajpiy09E

There is one top 20 school that is is in reasonable distance range  of our urban area.  Every student I know that has been accepted there locally in the last 5 years went to a private high school that runs 30K+ a year.  

My kid went through music admissions and academic admissions and some music faculty asked him questions straight up that insinuated this financial piece of things.   One music faculty said straight up - you're great, would love to have you.  Know we can't afford you.  Come back for grad school.

One thing I would say is just because something is called merit aid doesn't mean someone can afford to attend the school without it.  Our EFC is well OVER half our take home pay.  My DH is in his late 50's.  We live in a relatively HCOL area.  We have another high schooler coming up behind.  Our income hasn't always been this high and it isn't consistently high.  We live in a 2000 sq ft house and drive Kia vehicles and go on the occasional modest vacation.  And I'm not complaining.  The article kind of implied people would choose a school because they were flattered by a merit scholarship.  We never thought of it that way.  We thought of it them putting out some money that might result in getting a body they thought they needed on campus and probably wouldn't attend with out it.  It's transactional.  

Edited September 14, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Sneezyone]

The thing is, let’s be real, as an adult employee or employer...do you want the hard worker who WANTS to learn or the slacker who does the bear minimum? It doesn’t matter whether I’m dealing with low, middle, or upper class kids, I want the hard worker with a positive attitude who shows they can rise to the occasion. The focus on test scores obscures the lack of this trait in high income kids who can pay to study the test in a way that grades don’t support. Low income kids have no such advantage to obscure their lack of hard work/effort. This is a major loss for our country and economy (credentialing low EQ individuals and eschewing raw talent that might better help us all).

Edited September 14, 2019 by Sneezyone

[moonflower]

Well, colleges are businesses and can't just run on debt forever (although of course they do run on a fair amount of debt, just the government's/students'/parents', not their own) so it makes sense to me that they have to prioritize people who can pay to some degree.  It's annoying that some are disingenuous about it.

I don't think it's a shocker that wealthier people often go to more rigorous schools with less grade inflation, or that boys do better on testing compared to grades and girls do better on grades compared to testing, hasn't that data been around for a while?  What causes that is up for debate, I guess- maybe boys are better test-takers or girls do more of their homework or there is bias inherent in either the test or in classroom grades.

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, moonflower said:

I don't think it's a shocker that wealthier people often go to more rigorous schools with less grade inflation, or that boys do better on testing compared to grades and girls do better on grades compared to testing, hasn't that data been around for a while?  What causes that is up for debate, I guess- maybe boys are better test-takers or girls do more of their homework or there is bias inherent in either the test or in classroom grades.

 

I was unaware of this fact.  Is it common knowledge or a more recent study?  

New to me was the notion that schools are penalized for reducing their spending because that impacts their USNWR ranking.  I also was surprised to learn how impactful a slightly lower rank is on admissions.  

It seems like a lose-lose situation for Trinity if they can't boost their revenues somehow.  If they've been admitting such wealthy students, why aren't they turning into generous alumni donors?  I wonder if we're going to see more colleges like Trinity disappear in the next decade?  

[moonflower]

https://www.google.com/search?q=standardized+testing+scores+by+gender&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS862US862&oq=standardized+testing+scores+by+gender&aqs=chrome..69i57.4764j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=boys+do+better+on+testing+worse+in+classroom+grades&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS862US862&oq=boys+do+better+on+testing+worse+in+classroom+grades&aqs=chrome..69i57.6209j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

I admit that I just remember reading a few articles about it at some point and have not investigated in detail.

[daijobu]

Consider me "woke"!  😉

[moonflower]

Ack, I hope I didn't inadvertently contribute to woken-ness (as a staunch conservative), lol 🙂

[Frances]

6 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Wealthy male teens have more adolescent behavior issues than low income teens, males or females?

No, I didn’t mean that. But if a wealthy teen had issues with working up to potential and went to a top prep school or high performing public school, both the school and his parents would likely still encourage/push him to apply to elite schools. While a low income teen not working to their potential would likely not have people encouraging them in that direction. And in my experience, it does seem to be more common to be an issue among boys than girls, perhaps due to later maturity?

[Frances]

On 9/14/2019 at 3:07 PM, Sneezyone said:

The thing is, let’s be real, as an adult employee or employer...do you want the hard worker who WANTS to learn or the slacker who does the bear minimum? It doesn’t matter whether I’m dealing with low, middle, or upper class kids, I want the hard worker with a positive attitude who shows they can rise to the occasion. The focus on test scores obscures the lack of this trait in high income kids who can pay to study the test in a way that grades don’t support. Low income kids have no such advantage to obscure their lack of hard work/effort. This is a major loss for our country and economy (credentialing low EQ individuals and eschewing raw talent that might better help us all).

Nm

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[Frances]

Shortly after writing my post above, I read this article and it really resonated with me. While not a POC like Debbie, even without that additional factor so much of it describes what I think it would have been like for me had I attended an Ivy for undergrad rather than grad school, although hopefully not with the sexual assault.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/14/sunday-review/brett-kavanaugh-deborah-ramirez-yale.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Frances

[hepatica]

Altogether I read this article as one big argument for fully funding and expanding (as in basically tuition free) public colleges and universities. 

Very little of this comes as a surprise to me as we live at an elite New England boarding school and see this process all the time. I am at the point where I no longer care how bad places like Trinity and Wesleyan feel about their small populations of minority and lower socioeconomic students. As Moonflower said, they are businesses and this is their business model. The reality is about 75% of college students are non-traditional (ie not the "just out of high school, 4 year residential college student"). These places just aren't making much of a difference at all when it comes to social and economic mobility. They are practically irrelevant. Places like City College of San Francisco or the SUNY schools, these are the places that really are making a difference. We are only talking about places like Trinity because these places want to see themselves as the epicenter of higher education in the US. They are not. They are increasingly perpetuating and extending economic inequality and cater to a tiny percentage of the population. I am exhausted from hearing about the pangs of conscience felt by their admissions teams. 

This is an interesting companion read about how college athletic scholarships are now going increasingly to the wealthy as well.

It's time for the states and federal gov to get back into the game and actually fund public education. We are paying the cost of decades of defunding.

[shawthorne44]

13 hours ago, daijobu said:

 

I was unaware of this fact.  Is it common knowledge or a more recent study?  

New to me was the notion that schools are penalized for reducing their spending because that impacts their USNWR ranking.  I also was surprised to learn how impactful a slightly lower rank is on admissions.  

It seems like a lose-lose situation for Trinity if they can't boost their revenues somehow.  If they've been admitting such wealthy students, why aren't they turning into generous alumni donors?  I wonder if we're going to see more colleges like Trinity disappear in the next decade?  

 

I don't know about anyone else.   But, I would literally give money to a drunken sailor before I'd donate to my University.   This is because they spend money the same way and I'd know what the sailor would spend it on.  

[hepatica]

24 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

I don't know about anyone else.   But, I would literally give money to a drunken sailor before I'd donate to my University.   This is because they spend money the same way and I'd know what the sailor would spend it on.  

I would not pay a dime for my kids to attend any Ivy (and a bunch of other private colleges as well). I think they are parasitic on society. I'd like to see them have to justify their non-profit status.

[daijobu]

9 hours ago, HeighHo said:

The val  for the last fifteen years is always a person with perfect attendance, in the deflated SAT group, who doesn't qualify for NY's scholarship for Regent's Exam results.  Most do not take the top level of math available.  They are gaming the system.  The truly academic, very smart kids that are studying on their own and earning 5s on math/science APs are in the lower ranked institutions as a result. The undergrad selective door is closed to them, and they are taking the alternative routes, waiting for grad school to find their academic peers.  I'd suggest these college admissions people stop weighting val so highly, and start looking more carefully at the top 5 to 10% and what they are doing academically outside of the school offerings, as school offerings are often not open admission.

 

In a perfect world these student would get justice in the form of teacher LoRs and counselor letters.  

[Sneezyone]

21 hours ago, Frances said:

While I agree for the most part, personality and connections can also pave the way for lots of opportunities. And just because someone doesn’t work to potential and get good grades in high school, it doesn’t mean they won’t bust their butt when they find their passion. My brother was that way and is very successful now. And coming from a lifelong straight A student, grades are not the be all and end all. Isn’t there some saying about C students. I’m not saying I necessarily agree with all of this, but here’s a post about it. 

https://www.lifehack.org/288168/10-reasons-why-students-are-more-successful-after-graduation

Edited to add that also in my experience, the most elite school you can get into may not be the best fit for someone from a lower income background or anyone else for that matter. As someone from a lower middle class background, I went to a very small, rural high school in the Midwest. I never heard of AP or IB until I got to college and my high school didn’t even have honors classes. I had one classmate whose parent had a college degree, unless you count an RN. I went to a Colleges that Changes Lives LAC (chosen almost randomly, so pure luck) where I had a wonderful, nurturing experience with lots of students like me. My husband and his sister also attended and were from a very similar background. All three of us went on to get grad degrees from top universities, including two Ivies. My husband was also accepted to our state medical school and my SIL to a top five law school. Two of my high school classmates also got grad degrees from top universities. One went to an even lower ranked LAC than me and another to a state school. While we were all obviously academically qualified for more elite undergrads, I’m actually glad no one pushed or encouraged me to attend one. College was a big enough adjustment already. I don’t think I would have coped well at 18 adjusting to being at the Ivy I attended for grad school. It was difficult enough at 23 with a husband for support and a SIL two years ahead of me to look to for advice. 

I realize not everyone wants to go to grad school and some career paths in consulting, on Wall Street, etc are primarily open to those from elite schools. And that there are connections and opportunities at elite undergrads that can open doors. But it’s not as though the next tier down is some wasteland with no hope for grads. My husband taught for many years at a top 75 LAC with an 85% admission rate and he had students go to Ivy grad schools, attend medical school, work for McKinsey, win top national awards, etc.

Yeah, I didn’t say anything about school placement, or grad school, or...

My point was that HS grades count for something. They reflect work ethic. That doesn’t mean that students can’t (later) demonstrate that work ethic. It means I think those kids who demonstrate that work ethic and readiness from the beginning (HS graduation) should be rewarded with selective admissions, not those who slide in on a single day test score.    

Edited September 15, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Tree Frog]

13 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

I don't know about anyone else.   But, I would literally give money to a drunken sailor before I'd donate to my University.   This is because they spend money the same way and I'd know what the sailor would spend it on.  

Springboarding off this quote. It used to be that only the alumni of a university received requests for money to support the university. But there seems to be a new trend: ask the parents of alumni to contribute to colleges. My dd graduated from a small Christian university. She received a scholarship, and used money we gave her and money she earned to pay the rest. She graduated a year and a half ago, but even before she graduated, we were getting requests to donate to scholarships or to the university's general fund. I guess the fact we already paid one time makes us more likely to pay again? I hope we don't receive these requests from our other 2 students' universities!

Edited September 16, 2019 by wilrunner

[daijobu]

13 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

I don't know about anyone else.   But, I would literally give money to a drunken sailor before I'd donate to my University.   This is because they spend money the same way and I'd know what the sailor would spend it on.  

 

You, then, would really appreciate this bit from John Mulaney about college costs and donations.  (warning for language)

"In their letter they were like, 'Hey, it's been a while since you've given us money.' 

"I was like, 'Hey, it's been a while since you've housed and taught me. I thought our transaction was over.' "

  

Edited September 16, 2019 by daijobu

[Frances]

37 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

Springboarding off this quote. It used to be that only the alumni of a university received requests for money to support the university. But there seems to be a new trend: ask the parents of alumni to contribute to colleges. My dd graduated from a small Christian university. She received a scholarship, and used money we gave her and money she earned to pay the rest. She graduated a year and a half ago, but even before she graduated, we were getting requests to donate to scholarships or to the university's general fund. I guess the fact we already paid one time makes us more likely to pay again? I hope we don't receive these requests from our other 2 students' universities!

I had someone from my son’s college call and ask for a donation during his freshman year. I told them I wanted to wait and see what kind of educational experience he had before I decided whether or not to donate, so they should check back with me in four years.

[mom1720]

Asking parents isn't new. The university I graduated from 30 years ago started asking my parents for money not long after I said yes. In fact, it's part of their giving program "The XX Parents Program is a vital part of the XX Annual Fund. Each year, the generosity of XX parents helps the university support its financial aid ..." Taken directly from the university website -- I removed the school name. This is a well known school with one of the larger endowments.

Our current college student's school started asking right away, too. We aren't giving -- except that buying tickets for a certain annual event we attend apparently counts. His choice once he graduates.

[Hoggirl]

When ds attended the Duke TIP ceremony on Duke’s campus at the end of 7th grade, (ten years ago) they had a couple of sessions for families.  One was about their summer program offerings and the other was about the college admissions process.  One of the things I truly appreciated about the college admissions info session was that the head of admissions was completely transparent about the the fact that, while they were certainly looking for academically qualified students, they were also looking for students who would eventually become good alumni.  At least he was honest.