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10 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ok, I can’t answer everyone.  

The highlights.  There was no sexual abuse of anyone in our congregation. My son being angry (with others-not me) for the last 3   (almost) years has nothing to do with what he is mad at me about.  I only mentioned that to point out he is generally really angry.  

I did not start this thread asking for approval of my decision.  I asked is it possible for this relationship to every be healed.  Many of you said maybe not.  Some said yes with time.  That was helpful.  I have a cautious optimism.

It does not matter what the issue is.  It is a decision many of you would not make,  never understand etc.  I am very sad, but I do not regret my decision.  I continue to keep the door open, but no I do not anticipate asking my son to forgive me for sticking to my faith. I also don’t expect to ask him to apologize for his over the top behavior......I will welcome him back in to my life joyfully because I love him and I know he is just young and immature and adulting is hard.   

Scarlett, my heart aches for you. I hope that you can heal, and your son can heal, and somewhere in between you can find peace together. 

Edited by hippiemamato3
compassion is more important than knowing
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39 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

I'm not sure about the own child thing, but again, people here have said they wouldn't attend the wedding of something they consider grossly immoral (say a wedding between a child bride and a grown man, or a father and daughter).  So obviously people can understand the idea of not attending a wedding because you find the nature of the wedding seriously unacceptable.  And if you're surprised that there are people in the world who think homosexuality is immoral, or that homosexual marriage is immoral, I just don't know what to say.  There are entire nations where being gay is illegal, and entire religions where it is a sin.  And certainly the vast majority of even the West across history (even fairly recent history) were not as accepting of homosexuality as people in the West are today, so I just can't see it as all that mind boggling.

Sigh. Ok, I guess I will repeat it again for your benefit. As I already pointed out earlier in this thread, I am well aware that many people think homosexuality is sinful, immoral, scary, threatening, etc., etc., etc. The mind boggling part to me is why people have this belief (because it is so foreign to the way that I think), and why people are willing to jeopardize their parent-child relationship over it. 

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3 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 

Please delete that post.  Why do you have to turn this very personal heartbreak for me into a bashing of my faith. 

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Please delete that post.  Why do you have to turn this very personal heartbreak for me into a bashing of my faith. 

This post has gone on many tangents and you aren't actually participating in a meaningful way so of course people are speculating.  I will further speculate you are not sharing because most would not agree with you.

 I will delete it out of courtesy.  But people are welcome to google and find the article relating to the JW abuse cover up.  And there are many major news articles from reputable sources and plenty of evidence.  It was easy to find.  Acknowledging that humans are flawed and make mistakes including those who practice the same faith as you doesn't need to affect your own faith.  

I've said this on other threads of yours.  If you don't actually want mixed opinions and discussion, don't start the thread.

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6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Please delete that post.  Why do you have to turn this very personal heartbreak for me into a bashing of my faith. 

She is not bashing your faith.  We would honestly talk about any scandal hitting any faith/organization and what can be done to help prevent this. Hiding it or not talking about it only allows those who do harm to continue.  

I hope you come to find peace with your decision.  

 

 

Edited by itsheresomewhere
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Just now, FuzzyCatz said:

 

Well thanks. Putting that in your post was not helpful either.  Why don’t you go start your own thread about abuses in my faith. This thread has nothing to do with that.  

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2 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

She is not bashing your faith.  We would honestly take about any scandal hitting any faith/organization and what can be done to help prevent this. 

 

 

It is just extremely derailing and unnerving  to me on THIS thread.  

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Well thanks. Putting that in your post was not helpful either.  Why don’t you go start your own thread about abuses in my faith. This thread has nothing to do with that.  

You're welcome.  I didn't originally bring it up so I don't know why you are targeting me.  

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Just now, FuzzyCatz said:

You're welcome.  I didn't originally bring it up so I don't know why you are targeting me.  

Because you linked an article!  And I as posting that there was no abuse in my situation as you were posting that link.  

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Because you linked an article!  And I as posting that there was no abuse in my situation as you were posting that link.  

And I deleted it.  So move on.

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Scarlett, I just wanted to let you know that for what it’s worth, when I posted earlier and guessed that some kind of abuse may have been what your son was so angry about, I had no idea that there had ever been any kind of scandal. I was just trying to figure out what might have happened that might have made him so upset for such a long period of time.  

I think people are feeling frustrated because you are being very cryptic and you’re not answering even simple questions about what happened, so we are all probably imagining something far worse than it really was, and that’s why the comments are all over the place. 

It’s impossible to help you figure out whether or not your relationship with your son can be saved without knowing at least a bit more about why he’s so angry with you and why you are unwilling to try to reach some sort of compromise with him. (Please don’t think I’m defending him — I’m not saying this is something you need to compromise on; I honestly don’t know either way!) 

 

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2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Does the public's opinion matter if the grandson and God both know you disapprove, and do not accept it? Because I would imagine both God and the grandson would know you don't. 

Katy I do not understand your line of thinking AT ALL.  We prove faithfulness to our God by our actions....not when it is easy but when it is difficult.  If we just always said ‘well  God knows what is in my heart’ and then did what we wanted.....how is that being loyal to God?

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34 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Sigh. Ok, I guess I will repeat it again for your benefit. As I already pointed out earlier in this thread, I am well aware that many people think homosexuality is sinful, immoral, scary, threatening, etc., etc., etc. The mind boggling part to me is why people have this belief (because it is so foreign to the way that I think), and why people are willing to jeopardize their parent-child relationship over it. 

 

Oh, I see, it's the belief itself you can't figure out.  Well, I'd just say that as the majority of the world still holds it, and certainly the majority of people throughout history have held it, I don't find it that impossible to believe.  

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31 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Sigh. Ok, I guess I will repeat it again for your benefit. As I already pointed out earlier in this thread, I am well aware that many people think homosexuality is sinful, immoral, scary, threatening, etc., etc., etc. The mind boggling part to me is why people have this belief (because it is so foreign to the way that I think), and why people are willing to jeopardize their parent-child relationship over it. 

It is probably pretty universally mind boggling that other humans have thoughts and opinions and moral systems that differ from our own. Our own moral systems would be pretty useless to us individually if they didn't feel correct, and how can what is correct to my mind differ significantly from what is correct to another? So we easily ascribe negative morality, immorality, to those who follow a different morality.

Stretching our minds to try to comprehend--not necessarily to agree, but to see through actually different eyes--is likely good exercise for any of us.

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4 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

I guess I’m having trouble understanding what kind of “religious issue” would be so important to you that you wouldn’t compromise on it for your son. People have brought up the topic of gay marriage, but that certainly wouldn’t apply to your son, nor would living together outside of marriage (because they are married,) and they didn't have a baby together before they got married, either... so I am even more confused now than I was when I first started reading this thread. 

Cat you aren’t going to get it.  Even if I gave you ALL the details, you would not get it.  It is specific to my faith which you won’t  understand.  

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14 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Scarlett, I just wanted to let you know that for what it’s worth, when I posted earlier and guessed that some kind of abuse may have been what your son was so angry about, I had no idea that there had ever been any kind of scandal. I was just trying to figure out what might have happened that might have made him so upset for such a long period of time.  

I think people are feeling frustrated because you are being very cryptic and you’re not answering even simple questions about what happened, so we are all probably imagining something far worse than it really was, and that’s why the comments are all over the place. 

It’s impossible to help you figure out whether or not your relationship with your son can be saved without knowing at least a bit more about why he’s so angry with you and why you are unwilling to try to reach some sort of compromise with him. (Please don’t think I’m defending him — I’m not saying this is something you need to compromise on; I honestly don’t know either way!) 

 

Well, people are frustrated when I am cryptic and judge me when I give too many details.  

But just to give you some perspective, my son has been angry for almost  3 years over a father allowing his 17 year old dd to marry a 27 yo man.  He just can’t let it go.  

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Any chance your son was interested in this girl?   Just wondering...  fwiw, I think it’ll work out in due time.  Getting older has a way of humbling us and ds will figure that out soon enough.  Huge (((Hugs))) Mama.  

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Just now, Scarlett said:

Well, people are frustrated when I am cryptic and judge me when I give too many details.  

But just to give you some perspective, my son has been angry for almost  3 years over a father allowing his 17 year old dd to marry a 27 yo man.  He just can’t let it go.  

 

LOL about people being either frustrated or judgmental — it’s probably true! 😁

I remember your thread about the 17yo marrying the 27yo! It was kind of shocking, but I can’t believe your ds has stayed angry about that for all this time. It’s not as though he wanted to marry the girl himself or anything, right? I remember that he was friends with her, but I thought that was all it was. Anyway, aside from it being none of your son’s business, if the couple is still together, all's well that ends well, right? 

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Scarlett, as I'm not religious I would probably not understand why whatever it is is important to either you or your son, but I can understand the idea that there might be such a thing, and accept that you have the right to make these decisions and have sympathy for you in having a child reject you on that basis.  I don't need to judge whether the particular issue merits your line in the sand because certainly most people wouldn't agree with some of mine, and almost no one would agree with all of them - veganism + traditional conservatism are not often correlative! 

This thread has been helpful to me in dealing with a much more mild set of issues that the ones you're having, just in hearing other people's experiences of their own teenager/young adult children's rebellion/rejection/questioning and their own experiences as a teenager, and looking at my life in light of those experiences.  I don't think we all have to agree about the particulars of everything in order to learn from each other and be reassured by each other as coparticipants in the human condition.

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9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Cat you aren’t going to get it.  Even if I gave you ALL the details, you would not get it.  It is specific to my faith which you won’t  understand.  

 

Oh, okay — I was thinking it was more of a general religious thing and not something that was specific to your faith and that wouldn’t apply to other faiths. 

Whatever it is, I hope your son makes peace with you soon. Do you think his new wife will be supportive of your viewpoint? If she is, that will go a long way toward a quicker reconciliation.

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2 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Any chance your son was interested in this girl?   Just wondering...  fwiw, I think it’ll work out in due time.  Getting older has a way of humbling us and ds will figure that out soon enough.  Huge (((Hugs))) Mama.  

They were friends.  But more than that her dad was a mentor to my son. A good one. And this dad just......I don’t know how to explain it....just went off the rails allowing and condoning something he had previously counseled against.  It has been a Very Big Deal.  This father is no longer in his previous position in our congregation, but that is not enough for ds.  He wants a hanging at dawn or something.  

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4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

LOL about people being either frustrated or judgmental — it’s probably true! 😁

I remember your thread about the 17yo marrying the 27yo! It was kind of shocking, but I can’t believe your ds has stayed angry about that for all this time. It’s not as though he wanted to marry the girl himself or anything, right? I remember that he was friends with her, but I thought that was all it was. Anyway, aside from it being none of your son’s business, if the couple is still together, all's well that ends well, right? 

I hope they have a long and happy marriage even though I don’t like them much.  Their marriage is one thing.....the dads handling of the entire thing has been shocking....but yes basically it is not something ds should have been mad about for so long. 

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Just now, Scarlett said:

They were friends.  But more than that her dad was a mentor to my son. A good one. And this dad just......I don’t know how to explain it....just went off the rails allowing and condoning something he had previously counseled against.  It has been a Very Big Deal.  This father is no longer in his previous position in our congregation, but that is not enough for ds.  He wants a hanging at dawn or something.  

 

I remember thinking the girl’s parents were wrong to encourage the serious relationship when their dd was so young, but I hadn’t realized that the father got into trouble with the congregation about it. What does your ds think should happen to the dad? Is he angry that the dad is still a member of your congregation? 

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3 minutes ago, moonflower said:

Scarlett, as I'm not religious I would probably not understand why whatever it is is important to either you or your son, but I can understand the idea that there might be such a thing, and accept that you have the right to make these decisions and have sympathy for you in having a child reject you on that basis.  I don't need to judge whether the particular issue merits your line in the sand because certainly most people wouldn't agree with some of mine, and almost no one would agree with all of them - veganism + traditional conservatism are not often correlative! 

This thread has been helpful to me in dealing with a much more mild set of issues that the ones you're having, just in hearing other people's experiences of their own teenager/young adult children's rebellion/rejection/questioning and their own experiences as a teenager, and looking at my life in light of those experiences.  I don't think we all have to agree about the particulars of everything in order to learn from each other and be reassured by each other as coparticipants in the human condition.

Yes! I agree.  I have read along all day, unable to respond....I genuinely enjoy most points of view and I always love religious discussion.  I learned a lot not just n this thread but over the years....and honestly I credit this board for my ability to remain relatively calm in this situation when I have been out of my mind with grief and despair. 

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I can understand ds being upset with the church for not punishing the dad like he thought they should (I’m probably not wording that correctly, but I can see where a black-and-White thinking young adult would feel blindsided by the church and this guy especially if that church had been a central figure in his life up to that point).  Is ds even going to church anymore? (You don’t have to answer, obviously).  What about his wife?   Even if he’s taking a break from his faith, just pray that he’ll find his way back.  That’s what I’m doing right now.  It sucks, but praying is all I can do.  

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2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I hope they have a long and happy marriage even though I don’t like them much.  Their marriage is one thing.....the dads handling of the entire thing has been shocking....but yes basically it is not something ds should have been mad about for so long. 

 

I can understand that your ds would have been very disappointed in the man after having respected him so much as a mentor, but after all this time, your ds is only hurting himself by holding on to all of that anger. He must have been very hurt by what happened. I wish he could let it go. I feel sad for him that he can’t get over it.

Sorry to have hijacked your thread about this — I remembered the story when you mentioned it, so I was wondering what happened to the couple!

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5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I remember thinking the girl’s parents were wrong to encourage the serious relationship when their dd was so young, but I hadn’t realized that the father got into trouble with the congregation about it. What does your ds think should happen to the dad? Is he angry that the dad is still a member of your congregation? 

Ds wants a public acknowledgement that the dad was WRONG. It is just not realistic.  Everyone, and I mean virtually everyone believes the girls parents were stupid and wrong to allow this relationship.  It it is still not some moral sin. He was removed because he is suppose to be exemplary and obviously he isn’t when everyone thinks he is an idiot. Still not a moral sin—-being an idiot.  

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6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I can understand that your ds would have been very disappointed in the man after having respected him so much as a mentor, but after all this time, your ds is only hurting himself by holding on to all of that anger. He must have been very hurt by what happened. I wish he could let it go. I feel sad for him that he can’t get over it.

Sorry to have hijacked your thread about this — I remembered the story when you mentioned it, so I was wondering what happened to the couple!

No this is not actually a tj. It is central to my son going out of his mind over the last several years.  Many people have expressed upset and disapproval.    Complaints went way up the chain... but still..why is he so angry over something that is not his personal business. 

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Ds wants a public acknowledgement that the dad was WRONG. It is just not realistic.  Everyone, and I mean virtually everyone believes the girls parents were stupid and wrong to allow this relationship.  It it is still not some moral sin. He was removed because he is suppose to be exemplary and obviously he isn’t when everyone thinks he is an idiot. Still not a moral sin—-being an idiot.  

 

I agree. And what possible good could a public acknowledgment do for anyone at this late date, anyway? Realistically, what good would it have done three years ago, either?  It wouldn’t have prevented the girl from marrying the guy.

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

No this is not actually a tj. It is central to my son going out of his mind over the last several years.  Many people have expressed upset and disapproval.    Complaints went way up the chain... but still..why is he so angry over something that is not his personal business. 

 

Are you sure he wasn’t interested in the girl? It seems so unusual that he wouldn’t have gotten over his anger by now. 

I’m glad a lot of people complained about the man, though, and I would have thought that would have been enough for your son. The man called out for what he did, and he was removed from his leadership position, so that seems like a pretty big acknowledgment that just about everyone thought he was wrong. I’m not sure what else could have happened to him, short of him being kicked to the curb and no one ever speaking to him again — and that seems pretty extreme considering what he did.

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2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree. And what possible good could a public acknowledgment do for anyone at this late date, anyway? Realistically, what good would it have done three years ago, either?  It wouldn’t have prevented the girl from marrying the guy.

My son talked to the dad early on....on his own as a 16/17 year old went to the dad and expressed his strong disapproval of allowing this 14/15 year old girl to be involved with this grown man.  The dad assured my son he would not allow his dd to date at this age and he would NEVER. Allow his dd to marry underage.  

Well, obviously it didn’t turn out that way, so ds sees him as a liar and a hypocrite and others do too.  In the interest of grace I have suggested the dad changed his mind because people do that..... but regardless, ds has never recovered. Hopefully he will someday. 

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2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Are you sure he wasn’t interested in the girl? It seems so unusual that he wouldn’t have gotten over his anger by now. 

I’m glad a lot of people complained about the man, though, and I would have thought that would have been enough for your son. The man called out for what he did, and he was removed from his leadership position, so that seems like a pretty big acknowledgment that just about everyone thought he was wrong. I’m not sure what else could have happened to him, short of him being kicked to the curb and no one ever speaking to him again — and that seems pretty extreme considering what he did.

Exactly.  And that is what I have been saying to y’all, and no one believes my son anger is over the top.  I have repeatedly told ds EVERYONE thinks the whole thing was waaaay wrong.....but it was still a personal decision...to allow his dd to marry underage.  Being removed....although it took too long in ds’s mind, was a big deal.  

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26 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

They were friends.  But more than that her dad was a mentor to my son. A good one. And this dad just......I don’t know how to explain it....just went off the rails allowing and condoning something he had previously counseled against.  It has been a Very Big Deal.  This father is no longer in his previous position in our congregation, but that is not enough for ds.  He wants a hanging at dawn or something.  

I think I may be able to relate to your son on this. I once was a very very zealous youth in the very same religion. I was stumbled by people in positions who were saying one thing and doing another..... and it isn't really something that you "get  over" completely.

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Just now, Melissa in Australia said:

I think I may be able to relate to your son on this. I once was a very very zealous youth in the very same religion. I was stumbled by people in positions who were saying one thing and doing another..... and it isn't really something that you "get  over" completely.

Well, ok.  I don't get that.  Because I get that people are human and do stupid and hypocritical  things. It doesn’t really reflect on our God.  Good Grief, I pray no one judges my Religion based upon my actions....I have made horrible mistakes.  

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3 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I think I may be able to relate to your son on this. I once was a very very zealous youth in the very same religion. I was stumbled by people in positions who were saying one thing and doing another..... and it isn't really something that you "get  over" completely.

 Not to mention, no matter how you feel about his decision as a father it was still not murder, or adultery or idolatry....he was a human who got stupid in his personal life with his precious only child.  Maybe/probably he shouldn’t remain in a position of authority, but he isn't an evil person. 

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4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

My son talked to the dad early on....on his own as a 16/17 year old went to the dad and expressed his strong disapproval of allowing this 14/15 year old girl to be involved with this grown man.  The dad assured my son he would not allow his dd to date at this age and he would NEVER. Allow his dd to marry underage.  

Well, obviously it didn’t turn out that way, so ds sees him as a liar and a hypocrite and others do too.  In the interest of grace I have suggested the dad changed his mind because people do that..... but regardless, ds has never recovered. Hopefully he will someday. 

 

If your son viewed the man as kind of a father figure, it makes sense that he would take it hard when the man went back on his word, but he might have meant the things he said to your ds at the time and then changed his mind shortly afterward. He may not have intentionally lied to your ds. (Maybe he did, but I’m trying to think of any way that he might have been telling your ds the truth.) 

And if the man intentionally lied to your ds, that was a rotten thing to do, but dwelling on it for years is so unhealthy for your son.

I hope that as your son gets a little older, he will be less black and white about things, because it will make his life so much happier if he can learn to calm down and let things go, especially things he can’t control.

This must have been so hard for you to keep hearing about — after a while, you must have felt like you were banging your head against a brick wall!  

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2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well, ok.  I don't get that.  Because I get that people are human and do stupid and hypocritical  things. It doesn’t really reflect on our God.  Good Grief, I pray no one judges my Religion based upon my actions....I have made horrible mistakes.  

I think it is being a zealous youth and really really believing it completely and wholeheartedly. then find out that it isn't what you thought. it can really shake you.. when you get older and have more life experience then you can look at it differently but at the time it is earth shattering ( or maybe faith shattering). and not something that you get over really

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Just now, Melissa in Australia said:

I think it is being a zealous youth and really really believing it completely and wholeheartedly. then find out that it isn't what you thought. it can really shake you.. when you get older and have more life experience then you can look at it differently but at the time it is earth shattering ( or maybe faith shattering). and not something that you get over really

I can see that.   But I also see that it is not a healthy way to view humans.

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

 Not to mention, no matter how you feel about his decision as a father it was still not murder, or adultery or idolatry....he was a human who got stupid in his personal life with his precious only child.  Maybe/probably he shouldn’t remain in a position of authority, but he isn't an evil person. 

 

I agree. And we will never know all of his reasons for doing what he did. For all we know, he tried to break up the couple and his dd threatened or attempted suicide over it, so the dad felt he had no choice but to let her date and marry the guy. 

It’s not like the man was beating his wife and daughter, or he was a serial killer or a child molester. He may have made a poor decision when he let his dd get involved with a much older man, but I’m sure his heart was in the right place. And to want him punished three years after the fact seems both ridiculous and unfair.

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1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I can see that.   But I also see that it is not a healthy way to view humans.

I agree.. but that is the older me agreeing - the one with more life experiences with dealing with other humans

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1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree. And we will never know all of his reasons for doing what he did. For all we know, he tried to break up the couple and his dd threatened or attempted suicide over it, so the dad felt he had no choice but to let her date and marry the guy. 

It’s not like the man was beating his wife and daughter, or he was a serial killer or a child molester. He may have made a poor decision when he let his dd get involved with a much older man, but I’m sure his heart was in the right place. And to want him punished three years after the fact seems both ridiculous and unfair.

Well, she is a headstrong girl.....but I don’t care.  I have said many times if the dad was agains the union it wouldn’t have happened. If he had disapproved...he would have made sure the man stayed away. 

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Scarlett , when I was in my very early 20's I had a major falling out with my mother -  I didn't speak to her for approx 2 1/2 years.

 We now do talk to each other at least weekly etc. 

it will get better - it just takes time , space and more life experience for your son.

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Just now, Scarlett said:

Well, she is a headstrong girl.....but I don’t care.  I have said many times if the dad was agains the union it wouldn’t have happened. If he had disapproved...he would have made sure the man stayed away. 

 

I agree with you about that! I was just trying to think of a reason why he might have told your son one thing and then gone ahead and did the exact opposite.

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Just now, Melissa in Australia said:

Scarlett , when I was in my very early 20's I had a major falling out with my mother -  I didn't speak to her for approx 2 1/2 years.

 We now do talk to each other at least weekly etc. 

it will get better - it just takes time , space and more life experience for your son.

Was that related to religious issues?

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It's hard when the person you put up on a pedestal hurls himself off.  It's especially hard when the person is who you've built some ideas about your identity around.

But it's a completely different thing when you're the adult and the child that you love points out all the reasons why your judgment about her situation is wrong.  Perhaps the man preferred to maintain the relationship with his daughter more than having the control.  Perhaps there were a lot of other things going on your DS never knew about.

I feel like I skipped a lot.  When did DS get married?

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1 minute ago, Katy said:

It's hard when the person you put up on a pedestal hurls himself off.  It's especially hard when the person is who you've built some ideas about your identity around.

But it's a completely different thing when you're the adult and the child that you love points out all the reasons why your judgment about her situation is wrong.  Perhaps the man preferred to maintain the relationship with his daughter more than having the control.  Perhaps there were a lot of other things going on your DS never knew about.

I feel like I skipped a lot.  When did DS get married?

Friday. 

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2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Friday. 

 

Oh wow!  Hugs.  I had a falling out with my mother over religion when I was about that age.  It took a few years but now we text at least 5 days a week and talk on the phone at least twice.

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in part.

some of it was religious issues and how things were not handled, some of it was  misunderstandings because of the fall out of the not handling religious issues correctly.  some of it was other non related issues .

it was very painful for me and something I really struggled with at the time. 

Edited by Melissa in Australia
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