hiring a sitter/nanny for school hours--reasonable expectations

[caedmyn]

12 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

What kind of consequences are you giving? Is there a way to get the kids to comply without the threat of consequences?

I don’t want the sitter to become the enemy in your kids’ eyes. 

What we call a break, which is something like a short time-out.  It gets extended if they don't comply with it right away.  Basically, no, they won't comply without consequences.  One of them responds well to praise when he's in the right mood, but is almost impossible when he's not.

[PeterPan]

I get that it's hard, and it's really tempting to be frustrated and toss. But I wouldn't toss. It's a good learning process to figure out how to create this structure, to learn yourself, to learn what you need, what the kids need to function. It's all good and it's ok that it has a learning process. I've been through a number of in-home workers now, and you get better at it. Keep trying. The first thing I would definitely do is get some positive things (fudgecicles, read alouds, etc.) and set up prewarnings and expectation of compliance and good behavior. And make sure your environment is conducive to calm and work and clarity. We had to set up an office for my ds with a door that shuts. Make sure the environment is communicating what you want to happen in that space so when they get in that space with the worker their brains get in mode and they go ok. Whether it's the littles and having a dedicated room for that or the bigs or whatever. 

And if you need to train your bigs to work independently for 30 minutes, that could be good. You should be able to walk out and let the other woman come in. You could *ease* into it like that, training the kids yourself and then transferring over to her. 

This is hard to win on, sigh. I'd threaten 'em all with school, personally. I mean, nuts, I threaten my ds with jail. Not really, but I tell him the truth (that people who hurt people go to jail). Don't mess around. It's time to win on this. If this woman has stuck in, she may be a gem. It's what you want, so keep thinking, go through the learning curve, figure it out.

[caedmyn]

15 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

The light housekeeping sounds like an excellent idea, because even if it didn’t help with the kids, it would still free up some of Caedmyn’s time because she wouldn't have to do the extra household tasks.

 

 

She does do some light housekeeping, and actually looks for stuff she can do at times which is nice.  I appreciate what she's doing...the only problem is that those are jobs that the older kids are supposed to be doing.

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

What we call a break, which is something like a short time-out.  It gets extended if they don't comply with it right away.  Basically, no, they won't comply without consequences.  One of them responds well to praise when he's in the right mood, but is almost impossible when he's not.

Ok, could I just say this is kind of perverse? Any time people are dealing with behaviors, breaks are a GOOD THING, and here you're using break terminology as a BAD thing. Ugh. I know people do it, but your data seems to show it's not working anyway, kwim? 

Some more positive strategies?

-breaks BEFORE negative behaviors. A break is a chance to do something that helps yourself get back to green zone and ready to work. It can be some time by yourself, reading comics, listening to audiobooks, playing with puzzles or little games in a corner, whatever. Make a break space. Make it a POSITIVE thing. 

-build IN breaks. Everybody must take 3 breaks every hour, whether they like it or not. Practice taking breaks. 

-practice saying you need a break. Reward people for saying they need a break, that something is hard and they need a break, etc. 

-time IN, meaning more hugs, more of something they're missing

-Zones of Regulation check-ins where everyone checks their zone, marks it on the check-in board (red, yellow, green, blue) and gets a 10 minute break to do something to get back to green zone. Do this hourly until solid and then every other hour. I mean hey, you've got a paid serf to do Zones checkins, lol.

-catch them about to do something good and tell them to do it, so that you get the opportunity to praise them and get the compliance. 

-praise differentials. So like you know your obstinate mule child has 17 negative behaviors in one hour and today he only had 13. You praise the differential, that he had LESS negative behaviors and is working toward his goal and you're proud of him.

-ADHD meds. In the absence of ADHD meds, caffeine for all. Call it tea time. Morning starts, whip out the pot, brew it strong, medicate 'em all with the Baptist Ritalin.

Edited September 12, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

I'm not kidding on the praise the differentials thing. It's a thing they do in intervention classrooms. I can find you a link, but that's the jist. Like today I praised my ds for not hitting the SLP and told him I was proud of him. He actually had pretty bad behaviors, lol, but I flipped it and found something to PRAISE. You have to praise.

Breaks are positive and praise is essential. 

[PeterPan]

https://www.autismclassroomresources.com/reinforcement-in-classroom_19/  This is a good general article. Ignore the labels. This woman works in intervention classrooms and knows her stuff.

https://www.autismclassroomresources.com/thomas-and-thinking-chair-why/  on why not consequences

https://www.autismclassroomresources.com/6-ways-to-change-task-presentation-to/ So this stuff will look too young/simple/whatever, fine. But think about the MINDSET. Think about how you could use *choice* and the other strategies to improve compliance, what it would look like with your higher IQ but challenging kids.

https://www.autismclassroomresources.com/power-struggle/  Seriously good stuff.

https://www.autismclassroomresources.com/5-easy-ways-to-improve-reinforcement-in-discrete-trials/  Ok, here she's talking about differential reinforcement. It sounds really swanky with the terms and what I explained was a really basic level application. It means we find something to praise by looking for the differential, the slight improvement, ANYTHING we can use to turn it positive when the situation is really negative. And her step 5, about pairing the reinforcement (praise) not only with a tangible but with YOU is what I was talking about with the social motivation. They're calling it DTT, but for a lot of kids it's just good teaching: build a relationship, kid wants to please, kid doesn't want to harm the relationship, kid is motivated, kid does task, kid gets praise and relational reward like a pat, high 5, read aloud time together, etc. It sounds kinda young or low functioning in the article, but translate it to your ages and stages.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/sites/default/files/2018-08/Challenging Behaviors Tool Kit.pdf  Here's a solid pdf on challenging behaviors. I'm not saying your kids have autism. I'm just saying they are challenging and these are standard techniques used EVERYWHERE, across labels, when people are working with challenging situations. Start reading on page 42 maybe. You'll notice on page 43 it's saying what I was saying, that breaks are GOOD, that they should be used liberally, that they promote choice, self-advocacy, calm. The articles on those pages also give you a number of positive supports and strategies you and your workers could use to up your skill set.

                                            Stop That Seemingly Senseless Behavior!: FBA-based Interventions for People with Autism (Topics in Autism)                                       If you have time on a Friday night, this would be a worthy read. Again, if the gap is with you and them, you need more tools. So this book and that pdf might give YOU more tools.

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

She does do some light housekeeping, and actually looks for stuff she can do at times which is nice.  I appreciate what she's doing...the only problem is that those are jobs that the older kids are supposed to be doing.

She can do them *with* them, or they can be assigned to do them with her while they learn them. Like they can rotate through and each day one works with her to make dinner in the crockpot. It could be a break, haha. 

[PeterPan]

24 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

Basically, no, they won't comply without consequences. 

When my ds' compliance goes down, I sometimes need to take him away with me for a day, 2 days, longer, and get him snapped back. In your case, maybe start with the oldest, pair with them, get them snapping, then work your way down. 

I mean, I don't have lots of kids, but I'd triage like that, lol. And make it super high value, low cost. Like you're gonna go out with me for 2 hours and we'll get a cone and gab. Or we go to a movie, just me and you. Maybe not that. But if you rotated kids it would be super high value, kwim? Like crazy high value. Talk about motivators, lol. 

Milk shakes aren't too expensive. 

[PeterPan]

30 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

when he's in the right mood, but is almost impossible when he's not.

This is really sad. What do you find is driving those moods? You have data on it? Is it blue zone and passing or something more deep? Related to food, sensory, anxiety, bipolar, something else? 

Fwiw, depression and discouragement are going to be really high in the ADHD and SLD population. So it doesn't take a clinical mental health issue to make that symptom, just discouragement, lack of structure, etc. And it's not that we want them on top of the world, but some ADHD meds, structure, etc. can really make a big difference.

I watch it with my ds. It's not that his moods go up and down but that he co-regulates. So if people around him are bringing energy and structure, then he feeds on that. And as I go down, he goes down. He's co-regulating. So that's where your in-home worker is a great thing and where positive supports are good.

Are their vitamin D levels up? Have you tested them? 

Remember, the key is not to take behaviors personally. If they don't want to comply, they get behind, lose the good thing that was going to happen at the end of the day or miss out the fine time with dad while they make up their work once he's home, whatever. You have to dissociate from it, make the consequence (the side effect, NOT PUNISHMENT) harm them, not you. So it's just a natural consequence and it affects them, not you. 

Noncompliance is a problem when it affects you. It takes some work to dissociate from that and set it up so it only affects them. Like fine, no big deal, it will be here later, but remember it will make you late for doing xyz with your aunt or dad or whatever. It takes work to set up positive motivators and things they're looking forward to (things you can remove, things that are negotiable, things they can miss) so that they're motivated to keep on track.

I intentionally set up positive things like this with my dd so she was motivated to get her work done and had built-in consequences. They didn't harm me, but it was like sorry, you didn't get your book report done, can't go with Grandma this Saturday till your work is done. Just natural consequences, matter of fact, not harming me, no skin off my hide, lol.

Edited September 12, 2019 by PeterPan

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Lang Syne Boardie
nm, not as important in the big picture...

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, caedmyn said:

they want to run through everything on the list as quickly as possible which takes about 5 minutes.  They need supervision to make sure they're not running through pieces at lightening speed, and to make sure they're playing pieces several times each. 

See here's the other thing. This SCREAMS ADHD. It is just your most basic ADHD kind of symptom. Sure it could be boyishness, not caring whatever else you want to say. I hear you. But since you know they have ADHD, there's a significant component that is the ADHD. And the EF delay (30%) of the ADHD. The impulsivity and lack of control here is the ADHD.

So at some point, do you wonder why they have to have negative consequences and all this negativity constantly over their ADHD? Why can't they have some medication and just be able to do the tasks? I mean, if you want them to do music, maybe they need meds. With meds, some of these tasks could be in reach. Without meds, they aren't.

Someone has set it up so meds are off the table, but then that person wants everything else to happen. Doesn't make sense. They're getting punished constantly for their disability. If you aren't going to medicate, it's higher structure, lower demands, bringing the demands within reach. The music isn't in reach. You could say wow, I hadn't connected the dots that they're not able to do the things we want them to, the things we value, they're constantly on the receiving end of negative consequences, I wonder if meds could change that. They can be that powerful.

Or put another way, people I know with unmedicated ADHD kids do not require music practice. They wait and when the kid is of a maturation to choose it for himself and structure it for himself and do it himself, then they provide it. But no lessons when the kid isn't ready. So it's literally like 14 before the kid will be ready, but then it's like lightning bolt, the maturity is there.

Edited September 12, 2019 by PeterPan

[Farrar]

I really want to strongly second Peter Pan's words about praise and it's core importance. In general, all the language you're using here is very negative. I don't how how it actually plays out with the kids in reality, but it feels extremely punitive. When kids are struggling with various things, sometimes there have to be negative consequences, I get that. But it seems like there's not enough recognition here that they are struggling. If there are issues at play, it's harder for them than other kids. In general, even when there aren't diagnosable issues, I don't think kids want to be "bad." They want to be loved. They want to be seen. All of this takes support. So when my kids were "misbehaving" that's always how I tried to approach it.

You said praise only sometimes works. But praise is not something with a payoff that happens in the moment. You don't praise a kid and then he turns around and doesn't steal the cookie he wants or grab his sister's work to ball up because he feels like it. First of all, his failure to control impulses like those are not a moral failing. They're things he's struggling with that you and he have to work out systems for together. But secondly, praise is something with a payoff that happens over an incredibly slow period of time. It happens over months, not during the day in which you use it. It happens over a child's life, not on the day when you need them to stop screaming at the top of their lungs at everyone. And it doesn't lead to a kid stopping. Because if he has impulses or other behaviors that are hard to control, then they're still going to be hard to control for him. It's just that you're creating a new pathway. A lot of the time, especially at first, a kid won't choose the new path. The old one is easier. You're making a possibility of better behavior for the future.

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

They're getting punished constantly for their disability.

I'm just pulling this out to highlight it. Yes. That's what it sounds like. You cannot punish a disability away.

[PeterPan]

17 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I don't how how it actually plays out with the kids in reality, but it feels extremely punitive.

So if I could just say, I grew up in churches that were pretty negative. They didn't say it, but it was the whole skirts on women, your kids are sinners from birth (which sure, I agree they are), on and on. And the impact was this *really negative* parenting. I did it with my dd, and I don't really know when I moved over. I think it was with ds. It has consequences, and it's not pretty, when we spend a lot of time telling people they're being bad. And it's not really biblical or Christ-like when you think about it, because Jesus was pretty tight-lipped about most things. He'd get really quiet and say no let's do it this way. Or he'd say get behind me. Or he'd tell stories.

So when your church has a really negative, distorted view of kids that teaches you that you as the mother can't know what's right, that your kids only want to do what's bad, that they're constantly wayward because they're reprobate from birth, then there really isn't a lot of allowance for positive. And Jesus handled people so differently. He hugged sinners, forgave people who did bad bad stuff, went to places we wouldn't go, hung out with the wrong people. 

I think our churches have taught us to be scared to love our kids. I don't think our fundy churches (how I was raised), really get what noutheteo in the Bible actually means, what shepherding and guiding means. They told it us was about punishment and being fast enough to punish and that if we were faster to punish our kids would turn out right. And praise be that some kids have such good cause/effect that they figure that out! LOL Some don't. Some kids have developmental issues and the whole cause/effect thing is glitched a little. The perspective taking that allows them to care about what God or Mom or anyone else thinks about their actions isn't there. Those kids need a lot more teaching, a lot more support, a lot more positive. It takes MORE POSITIVE, not more negative.

I found a pdf someone published, a thesis on spirituality in disabilities. I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Here's the paper, and it's on ADHD and spirituality in children. Maybe it's a good read.

http://childhoodandreligion.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Mercer-Nov-2011-JCR.pdf

Edited September 12, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Farrar said:

You cannot punish a disability away.

Aw shucks, you're so wrong. I know you're wrong because Jim Berg and Mazak and the big wigs and the christian universities told me ADHD doesn't exist, don't use the DSM, the DSM is part of an attempt by secular humanists to send your dc to hell. And then I read in another book that since the Bible says we should "pay attention" that not "paying attention" is a sin! And of course we don't want to excuse sin, which is why we should, must, absolutely must punish it.

Come on, get your theology straight. No excusing sin here.

(you know I'm joking, right? The names are real and the details. This is really what we've been taught. It's really why we have whole communities where people refuse to diagnose and condemn condemn condemn all behaviors that happen with basically all disabilities and refuse to bring in evidence-based supports of any kind. Besides, the Bible says we can do all things through Christ, so you could pay attention and do right and do all these things if your heart was right. Bible says so.)

[PeterPan]

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/03/13/685533353/a-playful-way-to-teach-kids-to-control-their-anger  Here, be like Jesus, tell stories. It actually works with my ds. 

And it's kind of fun, because it can be a made up story, a story from your life, anything, kwim? 

Edited September 12, 2019 by PeterPan

[Farrar]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Aw shucks, you're so wrong. I know you're wrong because Jim Berg and Mazak and the big wigs and the christian universities told me ADHD doesn't exist, don't use the DSM, the DSM is part of an attempt by secular humanists to send your dc to hell. And then I read in another book that since the Bible says we should "pay attention" that not "paying attention" is a sin! And of course we don't want to excuse sin, which is why we should, must, absolutely must punish it.

Come on, get your theology straight. No excusing sin here.

(you know I'm joking, right? The names are real and the details. This is really what we've been taught. It's really why we have whole communities where people refuse to diagnose and condemn condemn condemn all behaviors that happen with basically all disabilities and refuse to bring in evidence-based supports of any kind. Besides, the Bible says we can do all things through Christ, so you could pay attention and do right and do all these things if your heart was right. Bible says so.)

I feel really blessed to have grown up in a church that was all love around issues like this. And, honestly, in general. I'm not a churchgoer now, but I have only love for the Christianity I grew up in. But I've learned from others that many people do think behavior is a sin that can be controlled. And it's hurting kids. I don't know if that's what's happening here. And I don't think it's unique to religion. So many people think that kids who struggle to control impulsivity or struggle to focus or whatever are exhibiting a character flaw. Which is not a way to support them to help them overcome anything.

[PeterPan]

Here's the irony. When you think about it, you care much more about the dc's thought process (his perspective-taking on why that was a good choice or less than good choice, how Mom/God/whomever felt about it, whether he was showing diligence, whether he's growing in his ability to choose to do tasks and be responsible, etc. etc.) SO much more than whether they actually practiced the piano or did xyz. The thought process, the heart, the GROWTH was what you were looking for. The piano was only the foil to get there.

So if they can only practice 5 minutes, I don't know. I'm saying remember why you're doing this and what you really want to see. You could be on auto-pilot. You probably want to have some concrete goals and maybe the things that should be the goals weren't apparent till your worker came in and you saw the issues. That happens, that's fine! But maybe pin down a goal, something really concrete, and then think about how you could STRUCTURE the time with the worker to be working toward that goal.

Shuts up and stays on plan could be a goal, haha. Just saying. Something really concrete. Goals are always babysteps. You might have a weekly meeting where you talk about the goal and do some instruction in social thinking. They could reflect on how they're working on doing on the goal. Realizing there's a goal and getting feedback on how they're doing and collaborating together on how they could do better (using tools, making choices, taking breaks, supporting each other, etc.) is how growth happens. Goal with instruction plus feedback. No feedback, no instruction, and you're really slowing down achieving the goal.

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I feel really blessed to have grown up in a church that was all love around issues like this. And, honestly, in general. I'm not a churchgoer now, but I have only love for the Christianity I grew up in. 

It's a fight they're having now in the fundy circles I was raised in. People are pushing the issues, and there are splits. 

I think it's important for people who are in that to at least realize the presuppositions they're working with. 

[Pen]

Piano?!?!?

I would not even remotely be trying to have non compliant combative kids play piano.

 

If any of them adores it and is cooperative it could be a reward for that particular child for the good cooperation.  Otherwise I would personally cross “piano for the kids” off my list of things to do.  

 

As I see it you have far bigger problems to deal with than piano lessons and piano practice. 

 

Health

Health

Health  (yours too!) 

Behavior 

Behavior

Behavior

 

Dealing with getting evaluations to figure out if they’re autistic or what the problem/s is/are...

 

 

the basic 3 Rs of required schoolwork as long as you are homeschooling 

 

and starting to think about long term prospects and what they may be able to do.    They may need access to state or county departments of disability and job skills training or other specialized help.  Public school might help with access for some of that to happen better than homeschooling can 

and then health and behavior again

 

 

BTW, how are you going to handle your difficult boys when their bodies and muscles are teenaged?

[Pen]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

See here's the other thing. This SCREAMS ADHD.

 

To me it sounds like adhd plus way more than just ADHD.  Maybe autism.  Maybe a Defiance disorder type thing. 

 

[Pen]

 

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'd threaten 'em all with school, personally. I mean, nuts, I threaten my ds with jail.

 

 

I’d not make it a threat, a negative.  I’d just send them because...life and sanity. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

How to present the possibility of school...I've been trying to catch up on old threads. I haven't seen the OP ever say that the children don't actually want to go to school. Have they been asked? Maybe they want to go. I don't know if they'd be allowed to go to school, but that's a different question.

I see where I said, back in 2016, that I would put them in school and there's not a person out there who could stop me from enrolling them (or force me to homeschool), but that wasn't the direction being considered back then. It's been three years and things can change, though!

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Or put another way, people I know with unmedicated ADHD kids do not require music practice. They wait and when the kid is of a maturation to choose it for himself and structure it for himself and do it himself, then they provide it. But no lessons when the kid isn't ready. So it's literally like 14 before the kid will be ready, but then it's like lightning bolt, the maturity is there.

 

Even if it’s “only” ADHD, there’s no guarantee that the maturity will be there suddenly like a lightning bolt at 14 ... or ever.

There are adults struggling terribly with ADHD who have never had a lightning bolt like that.

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

So at some point, do you wonder why they have to have negative consequences and all this negativity constantly over their ADHD? Why can't they have some medication and just be able to do the tasks? I mean, if you want them to do music, maybe they need meds. With meds, some of these tasks could be in reach. Without meds, they aren't.

 

 

If it’s adhd and if a med that would work for them could be found, it might at least give the whole family some new perspective on what is possible.  

For the dc they might experience for the first time What being able to focus on a task and carry something through even feels like.  

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

Even if it’s “only” ADHD, there’s no guarantee that the maturity will be there suddenly like a lightning bolt at 14 ... or ever.

There are adults struggling terribly with ADHD who have never had a lightning bolt like that.

Oh shoot, you mean reading something worked out for someone else's kid somewhere doesn't mean it will work out for mine?!?!  LOLOLOLOLOL

I know, that's like the people who are like hang that language thing, it all comes in later (pick an age, any age) if you just wait.

And yeah, that's something I think about with ds. I think it's why we were so willing to wait with dd on meds. You get used to your kids as they are and you don't realize how discrepant they've become, how DIFFERENT they could be with some extra tools.

Very ADHD kids I know are JEALOUS of kids who get meds. They wish they had the functionality and didn't have their parents shutting down the options. I'm just being blunt here. We all make choices for our kids, and I waited a long time. But my dd is hanging with kids 18-20+, and many kids are STILL shut down, still told no. It impacts their driving, their ability to go to college, their ability to feel confident in their jobs. And the kids have feelings about these choices by the parents and it isn't so pretty. 

[Zoo Keeper]

23 hours ago, PeterPan said:

....

Someone has set it up so meds are off the table, but then that person wants everything else to happen. Doesn't make sense. They're getting punished constantly for their disability. If you aren't going to medicate, it's higher structure, lower demands, bringing the demands within reach. The music isn't in reach. You could say wow, I hadn't connected the dots that they're not able to do the things we want them to, the things we value, they're constantly on the receiving end of negative consequences, I wonder if meds could change that. They can be that powerful.

Or put another way, people I know with unmedicated ADHD kids do not require music practice. They wait and when the kid is of a maturation to choose it for himself and structure it for himself and do it himself, then they provide it. But no lessons when the kid isn't ready. So it's literally like 14 before the kid will be ready, but then it's like lightning bolt, the maturity is there.

^ Just agreeing 5000% with the bolded.  I have a few ADHD kids myself.  One is old enough to have decided that he does not want meds (with the help of a medical professional, he tried different ones, and did not want the side effects), and we have let him make that call. We have had to lower the bar in some areas and be very selective about what battles we are going to fight.  Because above all, I want to be someone my son will one day feel happy to come home to, not someone he can't wait to get away from because all I have done is bark at him for almost everything for 18 years. 

Yes, I still bark at him for certain things. 

And I choose to be very content with some other things and tell him how glad I am that he *is* working hard in that area.

And other times I choose to hug him and tell him I love him so much.  No matter what he does.  Because he's my son. That's all. He needs to hear that our relationship is not dependent on how perfect he is. 🙂

(not saying you don't show love to your kids, OP, I don't even know you.  Just sharing about my family and how it is for us).

Edited September 13, 2019 by Zoo Keeper

[BooksandBoys]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

If it’s adhd and if a med that would work for them could be found, it might at least give the whole family some new perspective on what is possible.  

For the dc they might experience for the first time What being able to focus on a task and carry something through even feels like.  

I’ve been very open on here about wishing I had medicated earlier. The day my oldest adhd/autism spectrum son took his first dose, everything changed (all three of mine are on the spectrum plus adhd). Suddenly, for just a few hours, he could follow directions. More importantly, suddenly, we could see how he reverted back to his “disobedient” ways when the meds wore off. He wasn’t cured, no way. He has complex challenges, but for approximately 7 hours a day (he takes an extended release stimulant), he can function, follow directions, remember that we don’t hit people when we are angry (yes, that is about impulse control, which is about attention), remember how to brush his teeth, do his schoolwork, not talk nonstop. We had used high doses of caffeine before medicating and those helped a bit, but he was still in trouble all the time. Meds brought my sweet, wanting to do good boy back. And he likes them. He has never once asked not to take them, and if he forgets, he is upset because he can’t control himself as well without them, and he loves being in control of himself. 

My husband was completely against meds and I was on the fence. I convinced him to do a one month trial, after many, many months of talking. He was begging me to never take oldest back off meds after only one day. And that was without us even having started ABA for the autism stuff...which, by the way, has been absolutely spectacular too. 

Edited to add the part that keeps this on topic. Before meds, No One could handle all three of my kids but me. I left them with no one. Even their father (my husband) wouldn’t keep them once we had the third child until after we started meds. They were too overwhelming, bus, distracted, and “disobedient” (lacked impulse control, attention). And now, with all three on appropriate medications, there are only a few people I can trust to handle them. 

By this last bit I mean to say two things. One, you may have the wrong person. A person with NT kids, even 4 of them, has no idea what she’s up against in a family of 3 asd/adhd boys (I’m speaking of my own family here). And most people with NT kids will blame parenting for problems that have nothing to do with parenting and everything to do with social thinking, attention, and rigidity. You may need a different person, and that’s ok. And two, meds won’t solve everything, but they do help. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by BooksandBoys

[Pen]

 

35 minutes ago, BooksandBoys said:

Before meds, No One could handle all three of my kids but me. I left them with no one. Even their father (my husband) wouldn’t keep them once we had the third child until after we started meds. They were too overwhelming, bus, distracted, and “disobedient” (lacked impulse control, attention). And now, with all three on appropriate medications, there are only a few people I can trust to handle them. 

 

Quoting really just to bring emphasis. 

Especially if there is ADHD *plus* something else in OP dc or some of them, ADHD med won’t probably help with the something else part.  So it may bring partial help, but still leave a situation that’s beyond most sitter/nannies. 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

See here's the other thing. This SCREAMS ADHD.

So it's literally like 14 before the kid will be ready, but then it's like lightning bolt, the maturity is there.

My son with ADHD at 14 could not play the piano (or do serious math or write an essay or do household chores well) without medication. 

A lot of conflict and problem behaviors resolved when he started ADD meds. He had the ABILITY to comply with meds on board.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by prairiewindmomma

[Storygirl]

caedmyn, I just wanted to give you a word of encouragement, because I know it is so, so hard. I think that it's great that you have been able to hire someone, and I hope that you can work things out with her, because I know that you need the help. Any suggestions that come to mind have already been stated by others, so I won't add to that, other than to say that I agree with the assessments of the level of challenge that you are facing.

I hope you can find some new strategies from all of these suggestions. I want you to feel empowered to effect change and not feel discouraged by the magnitude of the task of parenting challenging kids. I also want that for myself!!! I'm speaking to myself here, too. I realize that I tend to feel the discouragement deeply and that the empowerment is out of reach. I hope that you can feel how much people would like to help you, and that you don't take any of the comments as judgment that you are doing things wrong. I admire you for your willingness to be transparent about the struggles.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Storygirl

[caedmyn]

19 hours ago, PeterPan said:

This is really sad. What do you find is driving those moods? You have data on it? Is it blue zone and passing or something more deep? Related to food, sensory, anxiety, bipolar, something else? 

 

It seems to be when he feels life is not fair.  He can decide life is not fair for many reasons, including a parent mentioning that we *might* be able to do something and then not ending up doing it.  Or a sibling being allowed to do something he isn't, or any number of mostly minor things.  When he decides life isn't fair, he can be very uncooperative.

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

See here's the other thing. This SCREAMS ADHD. It is just your most basic ADHD kind of symptom. Sure it could be boyishness, not caring whatever else you want to say. I hear you. But since you know they have ADHD, there's a significant component that is the ADHD. And the EF delay (30%) of the ADHD. The impulsivity and lack of control here is the ADHD.

 

There are two kids who are doing this, and only one of them would qualify for an ADHD diagnosis, so I don't believe this is primarily an ADHD thing.  I have no doubt that DS10 would get an ADHD combined diagnosis.  I also have no doubt that DS8 would not get any diagnosis (other than dyslexia).  He is not impulsive, not hyper, and not inattentive.  And it's not that all they can do is practice for 5 minutes, that's what they are choosing to do.  They are quite capable of practicing for 15 minutes at least.  They just don't want to, so they either stall endlessly, or rush through it as fast as possible (both of which I think are normal avoidance behaviors for kids).

 

19 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, could I just say this is kind of perverse? Any time people are dealing with behaviors, breaks are a GOOD THING, and here you're using break terminology as a BAD thing. Ugh. I know people do it, but your data seems to show it's not working anyway, kwim? 

 

The breaks are actually supposed to be neutral, not punitive.  Mostly it is just a 1 minute break to give them a minute to reset themselves. 

[caedmyn]

20 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

Never mind

Edited September 13, 2019 by caedmyn

[caedmyn]

I have recently started working with a parenting coach who specializes in children with major behavioral problems and many different diagnoses.  The breaks are his suggestion.  I'm seeing some behavioral improvement in a couple of kids and I'm going to give this a shot for a few months at least and see where it gets us.  I need something simple and easy to implement for everybody, and this I can do.  So many programs for difficult children have a bunch of steps, and I cannot keep up with that for so many kids.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by caedmyn

[Lang Syne Boardie]

OP, you've known one adult with ADHD who took meds so that's all you need to know to not try them, and you've known a few kids on the spectrum so that's how you know your kids aren't, and you can tell by the look in your kid's eye that his behaviors are deliberately bad, and you've taken up with a online parenting coach - not in addition to on-the-ground, IRL intervention for your family, but instead of it...so to be clear, these are all YOUR choices. No professional evaluations, no schools, no professional help or respite for you all, no meds, just stick like glue to your biases about meds, ADHD and autism, and fix everybody's bad character through behaviorism (as long as it's simple and easy).

I am glad you are studying parenting. I hope the decision to go with "simple and easy to implement, because you can't keep up with a bunch of steps," will help, at least on some level. I think parents who have BTDT are telling you that we sometimes have to fight for those interventions and helps (up to and including meds, which are not a "grand fix" but part of an informed plan), and do the work of the lots of steps, because that's what our children need(ed). Not because we were looking for hobbies or had a bunch of spare time and money. 

For several years, I've been laboring under the apparent delusion that it was your husband who wouldn't allow diagnoses, medications, school help, or anything mainstream. I think you are now telling us that you are against those things, yourself. Thank you for making that more clear. They are your children, these are your decisions, and I hope it all works out. That said, it does help those who are trying to answer your questions to know that you are the one who chooses not to try any approach that isn't simple and easy, and not to do anything at all, other than what you can do entirely by yourself.

 

 

[caedmyn]

4 hours ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

OP, you've known one adult with ADHD who took meds so that's all you need to know to not try them, and you've known a few kids on the spectrum so that's how you know your kids aren't, and you can tell by the look in your kid's eye that his behaviors are deliberately bad, and you've taken up with a online parenting coach - not in addition to on-the-ground, IRL intervention for your family, but instead of it...so to be clear, these are all YOUR choices. No professional evaluations, no schools, no professional help or respite for you all, no meds, just stick like glue to your biases about meds, ADHD and autism, and fix everybody's bad character through behaviorism (as long as it's simple and easy).

I am glad you are studying parenting. I hope the decision to go with "simple and easy to implement, because you can't keep up with a bunch of steps," will help, at least on some level. I think parents who have BTDT are telling you that we sometimes have to fight for those interventions and helps (up to and including meds, which are not a "grand fix" but part of an informed plan), and do the work of the lots of steps, because that's what our children need(ed). Not because we were looking for hobbies or had a bunch of spare time and money. 

 

You are seriously misinterpreting my post.  I mentioned one example to make the point that you can find people who are on both sides of the "meds are super helpful" issue.  I said nothing about "telling by the look in my kid's eye".  Maybe my mom intuition should get a certain amount of credit for seeing indications that at least SOME of my DS10's behavior are deliberate choices.  And you have no idea what I've already tried.  I have looked many times for someone IRL to help me with parenting, just not in exactly the ways suggested here.  I have not been able to find anyone who was actually able to offer help, so yes, I choose someone online who, IMO, has the credentials and experience to offer me some real, realistic, help.  You also have no idea what my "biases" are.  I would actually like to have evaluations.  There have been times when I would happily have at least trialed meds for several of my kids.  I don't think I have any particular "biases" about autism either--I've done quite a lot of reading and considering it, just as I have for my other of my kids' issues, and I don't see that the shoe fits.  No, I don't particularly want him to be on the spectrum, but I sure as heck don't want any of my kids to have dyslexia or ADHD either, and they do, and I don't disclaim that.  And choosing not to try any approach that's not simple and easy...that's utterly ridiculous.  Dyslexia remediation sure as heck isn't simple and easy.  Even implementing these breaks is NOT simple and easy.  Not by a long shot.  It's hard work.  But it is something that I can actually manage, unlike some of these 10 step programs.

It bothers me that the only real solutions in the eyes of this board are evaluations, meds, and/or school. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by caedmyn

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, caedmyn said:

It seems to be when he feels life is not fair.  He can decide life is not fair for many reasons, including a parent mentioning that we *might* be able to do something and then not ending up doing it.  Or a sibling being allowed to do something he isn't, or any number of mostly minor things.  When he decides life isn't fair, he can be very uncooperative.

That's a lotta social thinking there. And, fwiw, that's the kind of stuff you need to be tallying and tell to a psych, because for many kids it's an indication of pushing over to spectrum. There are nuances, but it really can be. At some point, you should stop blaming yourself and you're parenting and demand that you be told what's actually going on.

3 hours ago, caedmyn said:

There are two kids who are doing this, and only one of them would qualify for an ADHD diagnosis, so I don't believe this is primarily an ADHD thing.  I have no doubt that DS10 would get an ADHD combined diagnosis.  I also have no doubt that DS8 would not get any diagnosis (other than dyslexia).  He is not impulsive, not hyper, and not inattentive.  And it's not that all they can do is practice for 5 minutes, that's what they are choosing to do.  They are quite capable of practicing for 15 minutes at least.  They just don't want to, so they either stall endlessly, or rush through it as fast as possible (both of which I think are normal avoidance behaviors for kids).

I don't know them, but I'll just observe that there are other types of ADHD besides inattentive. They're exhibiting high impulsivity, which probably in the larger picture of things would get them ADHD diagnoses. 

4 hours ago, caedmyn said:

The breaks are actually supposed to be neutral, not punitive.  Mostly it is just a 1 minute break to give them a minute to reset themselves. 

You can also make the breaks longer, planned in, pro-active.

3 hours ago, caedmyn said:

The breaks are his suggestion. 

That's good! So did he specify only one minute? There can be different kinds of breaks, sure. Planned breaks are a bit longer, and there are the breaks you take when you are overwhelmed and going yellow/red zone and say you need a break. For the latter, the goal is for the dc to begin to self-monitor and realize he's ready to return to the group and return to working.

It's good that you're getting some help!! I vaguely remember you mentioning that website. He's not doing you a service if he's not telling you to get evals. Just saying.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

online parenting coach

Hold it, are you for real??? An online person who hasn't sat with the kids has ZERO CLUE to give you good advice. No legit, reasonable person would make comments about someone's kids and their needs without meeting them in person, or in the case of a BCBA having data collected by trained professionals so she could interpret the data.

I trust people who work with my ds in person. I don't trust people who give advice online. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, caedmyn said:

if one parent is going to be that obstructionist,

So in people I know where that's the case, they do a lot of physical work, drop demands, use very clear structure, and accept inability to do some things.

3 hours ago, caedmyn said:

Even implementing these breaks is NOT simple and easy

Why? 

The hard part about this is that you have the data but don't always realize what you're seeing. So talking it out can sometimes help. I'm concerned about the online guy, because he's presenting himself as some kind of payable professional but he isn't seeing the kids in the home to tell you what you're NOT connecting. That's why I bring a licensed social worker in my home, because that's when things became really clear.

You're in a hard place and we get it. You also have a pretty unequal marriage, with seemingly very little power to lay down the law when you think you're right. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

So this is not a tear down the Lions guy, because I really don't think he needs to be torn down. I want to point out something GOOD he's saying:

"With these shifts in interaction, children develop the ability to internally self-regulate, and teachers set boundaries, while recognizing the voice and autonomy of the child."

http://www.raisinglions.com/about-joe

So I'd like to point out that the stuff he's saying IS the stuff we're saying. He's saying self-regulation, and we've talked about Zones of Regulation, Interoception, check-ins. What he's calling "teachers set boundaries" is what professionals call STRUCTURE. When he says to recognize their voice and autonomy, and it's what all those links I gave you earlier were calling CHOICE and using CHOICE to improve compliance. And it can be student-designed projects and all sorts of other things we talk about on LC, but it starts with choice, sure.

So he's not telling you stuff you didn't already know and stuff different from what we're saying. That's fine stuff.

The point of evals is to tell you the stuff we CAN'T tell you and he CAN'T tell you because it takes a licensed psychologist. And I'm sorry that he got screwed by a really rigid school experience and hates that he was on meds and whatever else this bio means, but I see zero professional qualifications and him repeating things that are already general knowledge and standard practice in the intervention community.

More dangerous, what he's not doing is connecting you with the resources that would SCALE them to the level of support you need. So choice in a mainstream classroom doesn't look the same as choice in ED or choice in an ASD room. They're all choice and he's RIGHT! But he seems to be writing to a pretty specific audience.

2 hours ago, caedmyn said:

Even implementing these breaks is NOT simple and easy. 

So when you are saying implementing his strategies is hard, that's when I go to the idea that his concepts are good but that his ability to apply them to your specific situation is limited. He's not up to YOU and your family. He's not, or it wouldn't feel that way. I'm going out on a limb there, but I'm just saying you can think about that. Because you could bring an intervention specialist (someone experienced, haha, not a novice), a licensed behaviorist, a licensed social worker, anyone and they would be telling you the same stuff he's saying. But because they would have more professional experience, more training, more reading of the research, more conventions and workshops they've attended, more professional development, they would adjust the intervention to fit your home and your kids.

2 hours ago, caedmyn said:

It bothers me that the only real solutions in the eyes of this board are evaluations, meds, and/or school. 

I'm going to challenge you on this. There's kind of a concept in counseling that people FLIP who they're angry at. So it's fine to be angry at the boards and say we're mean and rude and don't listen and whatever, but shouldn't you be bad at your DH, who isn't collaborative, who does not give you a vote, who has created an extremely imbalanced situation where he's allowed to override ANY opinion you have?? Who are you really angry at? I mean, fine, we may have been too rough. But I think you should be angry at your situation and that someone disrespects you and takes so much off the table, making it hard to find a sensible solution. Be angry at whatever voices are telling him that solutions you suggest should not be considered and that your voice is not worth listening or powerful. Make sure you know who you're angry at.

I think your dh has supported  you letting you fund this online person. I think it was very insightful of you that you found someone who has some really good philosophical underpinnings. And unfortunately, I agree with LSB that unless you respect yourself and the power you're supposed to have in marriage this is a pretty funky mixed up situation.

So the actual answer on the breaks is if his idea isn't working (which, when it's HARD it's not), then it means you have some skill deficits. Self-awareness, structure, check-ins, something. I've worked on breaks for YEARS with my ds. Every single professional who works with him works on breaks and just him saying I NEED A BREAK. This is safe, generalizable language that works across situations and makes sense to all people. And the fact that it is hard for them to do this IS concerning! And it's good that your Lions dude is pointing out the value, and you need PROFESSIONALS who can actually see and evaluate your kids to tell you WHY and fill in the missing skills so it can work.

Edited September 13, 2019 by PeterPan

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Caedmyn, I apologize. I misinterpreted your survival mode rationalization as agreement. That's not said flippantly.

FWIW, I come from a family of origin in which one parent had to accommodate the other's significant mental illness and control issues while raising a large family of children. There was a great deal of rationalization, abuse, and neglect of the children as the parent-who-tried sincerely did their level best. It makes for a lifetime of complexity in the relationship with the children, as they try to sort forgiveness, blame, resentment, despair, forgiveness again...as they rediscover on new levels, at each decade of their adult life, how screwed up their childhood really was.

Even with that complexity and damage, I honestly cannot say what my parent should have done differently. I've been turning it around in my mind for over a quarter century and I still don't know. But FWIW, I often think that the rationalization was the worst part. If that parent had somehow been able to hang onto the idea that, "This is NOT right, these children do not have what they need..." it might have helped the children process the situation as adults. I'm not sure what I'm saying here, other than to hope you will not give up trying to make sense of all of this, and don't give up trying to get your children access to others besides yourself in their lives. Especially people who can help with their issues.

I'm not sure it's true that a parent can come in and un-enroll children from school and force their mother to homeschool them. I don't know what other price you would personally pay for standing up to that, but the law would not be on his side. Obviously, you would have to be willing to reach out for that legal help and protection. Again, can of worms. My parent didn't; I am very aware of why not.  (Edited: Other issues, not regarding homeschooling. We were not homeschooled. We might have starved or died, if we had been homeschooled, or at the very least the next generation of kids would have been screwed, too. We wouldn't have known anything but dysfunction. Because we had access to school, we were able to see that other people live differently...and that made all the difference.)

Edited September 13, 2019 by Lang Syne Boardie

[Ottakee]

22 minutes ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

Caedmyn, I apologize. I misinterpreted your survival mode rationalization as agreement. That's not said flippantly.

FWIW, I come from a family of origin in which one parent had to accommodate the other's significant mental illness and control issues while raising a large family of children. There was a great deal of rationalization, abuse, and neglect of the children as the parent-who-tried sincerely did their level best. It makes for a lifetime of complexity in the relationship with the children, as they try to sort forgiveness, blame, resentment, despair, forgiveness again...as they rediscover on new levels, at each decade of their adult life, how screwed up their childhood really was.

Even with that complexity and damage, I honestly cannot say what my parent should have done differently. I've been turning it around in my mind for over a quarter century and I still don't know. But FWIW, I often think that the rationalization was the worst part. If that parent had somehow been able to hang onto the idea that, "This is NOT right, these children do not have what they need..." it might have helped the children process the situation as adults. I'm not sure what I'm saying here, other than to hope you will not give up trying to make sense of all of this, and don't give up trying to get your children access to others besides yourself in their lives. Especially people who can help with their issues.

I'm not sure it's true that a parent can come in and un-enroll children from school and force their mother to homeschool them. I don't know what other price you would personally pay for standing up to that, but the law would not be on his side. Obviously, you would have to be willing to reach out for that legal help and protection. Again, can of worms. My parent didn't; I am very aware of why not.  (Edited: Other issues, not regarding homeschooling. We were not homeschooled. We might have starved or died, if we had been homeschooled, or at the very least the next generation of kids would have been screwed, too. We wouldn't have known anything but dysfunction. Because we had access to school, we were able to see that other people live differently...and that made all the difference.)

This spells out a lot of my concerns.  I agree the kids seem to have some needs that do need professional evaluations.  It can provide clarity and a plan of action.  Just like a medical issue, if you know the root cause (even if the symptoms seem the same) the treatment might be different based on what the root cause is.

My bigger concern is the emotional environment in which you seem to have to be parenting.  Lots of demands are being put on you, your opinions are not heard/considered, etc.

[caedmyn]

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Okay; I feel like maybe we are talking past each other. The sort of help our developmental psych gave us was very similar to some of what @PeterPan recommended to you, but targeted to the specific issues they noticed in my children.  Neither of mine take meds for behavior, just seizures and gastro fun.

 

For example - today we were at an OT appointment for a communication device and the OT brought up a diagnosis we had originally shelved - CVI - as being responsible for why my son wasn’t following 2d pictures in books but could handle them when backlit or moving on a screen.  Pediatric ophthalmology cleared him of this initially but recommended following up, and we had mentally checked that off our list.  But the therapist proceeded to explain several red flags she saw in his reactions and ongoing behaviors that made her think that could still be in play - and gave me a new referral to pediatric ophthalmology to investigate.

Nobody recommended we put him in a school to solve it, or that it could be medicated, it was a “Hey!  Given what you’ve told me and what we are seeing in these frustrations and ‘inabilities’ in this area, we should look into this again because it could be what’s causing this.”  Super helpful, very low key, something to look into before we just throw up our hands at a barrier we are hitting in school skills that could, in fact, be worked with and aided if that is the cause.

 

 

Another example - my other kiddo, who struggles with back talk and focus on written tasks, coordination.  The back talk is him trying to get out of difficult tasks and his lack of focus and skill in writing is actually an attention issue -   When we limit the size of the paper and give him some pressure input, keep his eyes from wandering, give guide marks on the paper, etc, suddenly what was a bad attitude and refusal to do work is a successful task with no attitude or markedly less, because we have accommodated and found a solution to his specific problem that helps him feel like he isn’t having to fight and struggle for something too difficult for him to accomplish.  It looked behavioral but NONE OF IT WAS.  It was specifically the way his brain was coordinating the tasks, and after educating four older children I still wasn’t able to target his issues and solve them without an outside expert giving me tips and working with him to see what clicked.

This kid does have a diagnosis, but it literally just gave us access to these therapists and to work through practice strategies, strengthening weak areas, and patterning through the missing skills until they clicked.  No meds, no IEP needed.  Just someone doing what I, as a layperson, wasn’t able to accomplish on my own.  My son is the one who won, but it had the awesome tradeoff of making this whole writing task less odious for me as well.

 

This is a TOOL.  An evaluation is a starting point for a conversation and a treatment plan to help your child get where they need to be, or even to rule out whether they would benefit from a given therapy, augmentation, medication, or routine.

I have done a lot of what you're talking about the past few years, just not in quite the manner you're describing.  I figured out that DS10 was dyslexic (and later DS8 and DS6) and what needed to be done to remediate that.  DS10 had OT evaluations for sensory issues and retained reflexes.  DS6 has had an OT evaluation.  DS10 just had an evaluation for vision therapy, which he's not going to be able to do because they want to do 30+ visits and the place is 3 hours away (and there's nothing closer) and after just the initial trip for the evaluation I could see that I wasn't going to be able to make that work with 6 kids, not to mention the OOP cost for it all.  I'll see what I can come up with for an at-home program for him.  I've not been sitting around burying my head in the sand about my kids' issues even if I haven't done things the way people think I should.

[caedmyn]

Deleted for privacy

Edited September 14, 2019 by caedmyn

[moonflower]

Here's the deal, OP, I am probably as close to you as possible re: meds and diagnoses.  I have a lot of small kids who are wild terrors, and DS11, who is a semi-model citizen now, would have gotten an ADHD diagnosis at 5, I'm pretty sure.  His K teacher suggested it and the other kids who were on the same behavior program as him at the time were being medicated for ADHD or about to start medication.

We were not interested in medication, or to be honest even a diagnosis.  If things had been much worse, or were still unmanageable now at 11, I dunno, but at 5 and young-for-grade, no.

So here is what we did with the combination of a lot of little kids (we have right now 14, 11, 7, 6, 4, 3, and 1): we reduced demands of the ones who couldn't comply with lots of structured busywork.  Piano practice would be 100% gone for anyone who didn't want it.  We pulled them from school and DD14 (then 8 ) did a pretty traditional homeschool set; she has good EF and no ADHD tendencies.  DS11 (then 5) did the bare minimum of literacy and math, and what he did of that was largely disguised to make it look like not-school.  I taught him to read with 100EZ lessons and then just let him read to his heart's content; we tried everything possible with math and settled on Teaching Textbooks. We don't use small electronics or have a TV or video game player, so TT (the computer-based version) was super high motivation because it meant computer time.  Other than that we let him be; we taught him to ride a bike and rollerblade and skateboard and let him roam the (safe) neighborhood doing these things for hours a day, or sit around reading or making paper airplanes or playing stick fight (within guidelines), etc.  WE focused on absolutely basic functional things; he learned to do dishes and it took FOREVER.  The only thing that motivated him enough to finish the job and do it correctly was putting every not-clean dish back in the sink every time to be redone right then; nothing fun could be done (skateboarding, roller blading, computer, reading) until the dishes had been done.  We had to be very firm with consequences and honestly kind of harsh imo, because his internal motivator to get work done was very low (that is, his dopamine levels, if I remember correctly about ADHD, are not naturally high enough, and so he gets bored and loses focus and energy and just can't do it without serious motivation).  He couldn't spend his whole life in his room so we dropped demands to a minimum - do what you're told when you're told, but we won't follow you around telling you to say please and thank you and brush your teeth 3x a day and take a shower every night and make your bed and finish these 5 worksheets and be quiet and eat at the dinner table and all of that.  

By 10 he was a civilized person somehow, still with low motivation to work but able to be in school and be content and do well there; he wasn't behind academically.  

For the chaos of little kids, and especially managing that as a not very high EF person myself while homeschooling and working from home, we went very minimalist.  So we don't own much.  The kids have a lot of freedom but not a lot of stuff.  We don't own legos or other small chokable items; we don't buy a zillion foods that are hard to feed yourself and/or messy; we don't have tons of toys and what we do have is largely functional (balls, bikes, cars, racetrack, etc.)  For many years we had no writing utensils available to anyone under the age of 5, which I know sounds insane but it was the only way.  We don't own cutting knives, we don't own much furniture, etc.  Everyone 3 and older can make/acquire their own peanut butter sandwich, toast, corn chips and tuna or corn chips and black beans, banana, blueberries, oats (uncooked, the way they like them), etc.  I make one meal a day which I keep pretty well rounded; we don't have much processed food if any.  We don't have electronics (tv, video games, ipads, cell phones, etc.), just two desktops we use for work, so they do have to self-entertain a lot which I think is good for brain development and also being tired at night as they run around a lot.  In the winter we let them play soccer in a non-windowy part of the house.  

Anyway, all this just to say, I think it's hard to have it both ways.  A lot of moms of many here have as far as I can tell very organized households and do lots of different amazing homeschool curricula; they bathe everyone every day; they all go places all the time like museums and the library; they eat 3 meals a day at the table with real dishes.  We do the simplest homeschool possible; they must bathe once a week but sometimes go through spurts of bathing twice a day; we almost never all go anywhere; we eat one meal a day and scrounge for the rest, on unbreakable dishes and stainless steel cups.

Our kids are happy and I'm happy with how we're raising them; they're healthy, their brains work, things are chaotic sometimes but mostly harmonious.  But this only works for us because demands are very low - they can use any dish safely because we don't own a single breakable dish of any type, for example.  They can wipe their mouth with their shirt after eating blueberries and oats because I wash everything on hot, dry on hot, and don't care about stains.  Etc.

 

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

DS10 just had an evaluation for vision therapy, which he's not going to be able to do because they want to do 30+ visits

We've had people do once a month with lots of homework. You can see if they can work with you. We've had multiple people on the boards do that over the years.

Fwiw, I'm really glad you've been winning on some of the important things with how you're treated. That's a big step. Do you ever wonder if the reason you've been treated that way is due to unacknowledged disabilities? When the person doesn't acknowledge their disabilities, it's sort of this blind spot, very frustrating, sigh.

[PeterPan]

43 minutes ago, caedmyn said:

even if I haven't done things the way people think I should.

Have you talked with your ped or family doctor about these issues to see what he could do? Around here peds have the same EF screenings that the psychs use. They also have the GARS or other spectrum screenings. 

[Pen]

Did you ever try the approach in this book?

Explosive Child, The: A New Approach For Understanding And Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062270451/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_t1eFDbKRMGH29

 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, caedmyn said:

I have done a lot of what you're talking about the past few years, just not in quite the manner you're describing.  I figured out that DS10 was dyslexic (and later DS8 and DS6) and what needed to be done to remediate that.  DS10 had OT evaluations for sensory issues and retained reflexes.  DS6 has had an OT evaluation.  DS10 just had an evaluation for vision therapy, which he's not going to be able to do because they want to do 30+ visits and the place is 3 hours away (and there's nothing closer) and after just the initial trip for the evaluation I could see that I wasn't going to be able to make that work with 6 kids, not to mention the OOP cost for it all.  I'll see what I can come up with for an at-home program for him.  I've not been sitting around burying my head in the sand about my kids' issues even if I haven't done things the way people think I should.

 

Do you think the 30+ visits idea was excessive on their part? Or does he have quite significant vision issues?  

My Ds got take home exercises for amblyopia with instructions to do them daily and see if that fixed the problem without full on VT. 

[Pen]

7 hours ago, caedmyn said:

It bothers me that the only real solutions in the eyes of this board are evaluations, meds, and/or school

 

41 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Did you ever try the approach in this book?

Explosive Child, The: A New Approach For Understanding And Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062270451/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_t1eFDbKRMGH29

 

 

If they don’t have ASD or ODD type problems—just sort of “normal” inflexibility and low frustration tolerance the approach in the above book may help a good bit.

 

 

as to recommendations of evaluations, meds, school: 

 I think knowing what’s going on could help you.

The way I have understood what you have written about several of your children it seems very far from “normal”.  Especially ds10. 

Depending on what’s wrong, meds may or may not help. 

School could help just to limit how many kids you are trying to remediate and teach.  IMO remediation of just one child (or a few at same working level) with significant dyslexia or moderate dyslexia plus significant vision problems would not leave enough more time in day to adequately homeschool 4 other children all at different levels and more than one of whom also had some sort of LD or behavior challenges.