Can we talk dysgraphia for a minute?

[mamashark]

So DD8 has dysgraphia and dyslexia. 

She is learning to type, but in the meantime, I am focusing on letter formation and require the following writing:

She is doing English writing and Grammar level 2 from Bob Jones, either 1/2 or 1 lesson per day, depending on the amount of writing. Sometimes I allow her to circle the correct group of words instead of writing them; typically she has to write 6-8 words plus 1 sentence.

For science, she will copy 1 sentence per week, and write a couple one word answers 2 times a week.

She also does Barton level 3 and I have been having her do all the writing required in that, but I do NOT correct for proper letter formation at this time.

She LOVES typing lessons, but strongly dislikes the writing I require from her, which is not entirely surprising. She has passed OT tests for fine motor control for writing ability. 

How much writing should I be requiring? My goal right now is to allow her to type most of her writing by next year (spend this year becoming proficient on the keyboard) but in the meantime, I felt like she needed to at least become proficient in her handwriting... but I've not learned much about dysgraphia yet so I'm not sure what's reasonable to expect or how to remediate.

[Terabith]

That sounds reasonable, but how reasonable probably depends on how severe her dysgraphia is.  I think if she is capable of doing some writing without an excessive amount of effort/ stress/ hysteria, then it probably is beneficial to require a bit.  It makes it easier to implement curriculum; it gives her valuable practice, and it's not too onerous.  Math, in particular, is definitely easier if a child can handwrite it.  

If this amount of writing is causing hysteria and taking hours, then probably isn't reasonable.  But what you're describing sounds like it's a nice compromise between giving her enough practice to be competent at some level of writing and not so much as to be too stressful.

[mamashark]

Her vision has been checked, and both glasses and convergence issues ruled out. Because of the severity of her Dyslexia we will likely have a full vision test yearly (as the insurance allows) for my own peace of mind. 

 

[Storygirl]

I think what you describe is reasonable output for her age. You don't mention having her do a specific lesson just in handwriting (unless that is included in Barton?). I think you could add a handwriting lesson in there. Some people like Handwriting Without Tears. We did not use that, as we had already been using A Reason for Handwriting before DS's dysgraphia diagnosis. A Reason for Handwriting was nice for my kids, because it included a weekly coloring page with a Bible verse to write, which was more fun than just practicing random words and letters.

Ugh. Just lost a paragraph.

With DS15, we aimed for legibility, not perfectionism, because he was unable to make it perfect. Now, as a teen, that legibility standard has proven to be sufficient for his brick-and-mortar schoolwork. The one thing that is still hard for him is fitting his words into a required small space. Over the years, it may be helpful for you to practice that. Sometimes it's not possible to be given a larger space to write in (for example, when signing the name on an electronic pad, which recently proved difficult for DS).

One thing to watch for is whether the dysgraphia is just the handwriting kind. Or whether it also is the "getting thoughts onto paper" kind of dysgraphia. For the latter, additional accommodations may be needed, as she begins to write more for her schoolwork.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, mamashark said:

She also does Barton level 3 and I have been having her do all the writing required in that, but I do NOT correct for proper letter formation at this time.

I think it sounds like a reasonable amount of work, but I would be leery of not correcting letter formation. I didn't get picky about neatness, spacing, placement on a line, size, etc. with my kids, but I was super picky about making sure they always form their letters the same way each time. I really didn't even care if it looked like the right letter if they followed the right motor pattern. Otherwise, they were basically practicing the wrong motor pattern to have to undo it later. 

I would require less writing if I felt like I had to compromise on letter formation. 

The other possible thing that could be a problem (and I don't know if it is from what you wrote) is that writing as part of a thinking exercises means splitting her concentration in multiple ways. Only you can say whether that's good (helps generalize a writing skill to more tasks), or a problem (too hard, means she makes more errors in work, etc.). 

But the amount of writing and how it's spread out? I think that's totally fine.

*ETA: I should probably clarify that over time, I expected legibility, but when we were going for not being picky because it wasn't a handwriting assignment, we didn't require neatness, just good motor habits. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by kbutton

[Storygirl]

For some context -- my kid entered brick and mortar school in fourth and fifth grades. By those ages, handwriting was not part of the school curriculum, and teachers did not seem to care if the writing was sloppy, as long as it was legible.

In fifth grade, we were told by the school OT after an evaluation that they didn't expect handwriting to be changeable at that age, so they would not provide any OT services. But he did get a long list of helpful accommodations in his IEP.

By sixth grade, more of the output was done on computer.

[Storygirl]

I'm not sure that our school OT's opinion about how old is too old for remediation to help was based on anything in particular. Just observation, probably, or perhaps the school's predetermined stance on what they were willing to offer for services. It's good to hear that your child made improvements during 8th grade and up!

I do think it's too bad that schools don't teach good penmanship any more.

[73349]

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

 The one thing that is still hard for him is fitting his words into a required small space. Over the years, it may be helpful for you to practice that. Sometimes it's not possible to be given a larger space to write in (for example, when signing the name on an electronic pad, which recently proved difficult for DS).

 

A tip for electronic signature pads: I simply initial. (The only one I've squeezed my name onto was the DMV for my license.) I have never been hassled.

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Dysgraphia is remediated via penmanship lessons. 

 

Not completely true.  My ds's penmanship is beautiful, but the actual formation of the letters and formation of letters into words was not automated at the age of 12 (and still not). So he was still thinking about how to form an 'm' and how to sound out 'mat' so he could spell it.  Also, the grammar of sentences and thus all punctuation made absolutely no sense to him, even after years of instruction. Dysgraphia is an *encoding* problem. 

Our solution to all these cluster of problems was what I called 'typing dictation'. I dictated 'cat in the hat' to him (at age 12 he still had to sound out the top 100 words), and corrected his spelling word for word. I spoke in natural phrase breaks, and taught him how to understand the grammar of language through an immersive approach.  We built up book by book using novels he loved - mostly fantasy. We stopped when we hit Titus Groan (very high level). We did this for 30 minutes per day, 5 days a week, for 2+ years. 

We also abandoned all handwriting except math at the age of 12. 

[hepatica]

I think dysgraphia is really poorly understood. Dyslexic dysgraphia is especially misunderstood. My DD could read passably well at age 8 and she learned cursive handwriting and did all her copywork in cursive and it was pretty nicely done. She had tons of spelling instruction. She hated writing, however. She could copy fine, and she is actually a pretty good artist, but she hated writing (composition). By the time she was in middle school her writing was illegible. The increased demands of language processing for higher level reading and writing meant there was almost no bandwidth left for actual handwriting. Thank goodness for typing. 

So, IME, you can put in a lot of time with handwriting and spelling and mechanics in the elementary years, but it is not uncommon to see it all fall to pieces in the middle school years (don't be surprised if you feel she is going backwards). If I had it to do over again, I would start the typing much earlier. If your DD loves typing lessons then keep those up, and make sure you get documentation so if she needs accommodations to use a computer at some point she can have them (College Board doesn't understand dysgraphia either).

Actual composition is helped much more by content knowledge than by fluent handwriting. Spend most of your time on content - learning actual information - because that's what enables reading comprehension and composition. A decade from now we probably won't even have to ask for keyboard accommodations in school. Everyone will be writing and taking notes and tests on a keyboard. Seems so silly that we have to fight so hard for these things now. 

[mamashark]

1 hour ago, hepatica said:

make sure you get documentation so if she needs accommodations to use a computer at some point she can have them (College Board doesn't understand dysgraphia either).

Does a formal diagnosis from a private psych cover this? Or do I have to go through the school system for testing to have documentation that will suffice? 

[Lecka]

“Drawing” letters is the opposite of “automatic letter formation.”  

With automatic letter formation, you do not consciously think of how you write the letter, you just write it.

With automatic letter formation, two things in particular...... you can write the letter from memory, you don’t have to look at it..... you write and form the letter the same way every time.

For example... something I was told when my older son had an OT eval..... he wrote the alphabet copying a model (writing the letters underneath the model) and his letters looked one way.  He wrote the letters from memory and they looked different.  He also substituted capital letters when the letters were supposed to be all lower case.

I wouldn’t say he exactly “drew” his letters.  It was more like he copied them, or he guessed and did the best he could. 

 

[Lecka]

With letter formations — a lot of times kids may have a “wrong” formation (like my younger son starts his number 9s from the bottom) — but they do do it the same way every time, they have a consistent formation.  

[Lecka]

Are you saying more she doesn’t connect the letter with the letter sound, as she writes it?  

But she does a good job writing the letters?

I think that could come over time, as her phonemic awareness and stuff improve.

When she can blend better, maybe that will connect for her more.

When she can blend better too, you might have her say the sounds (sound out the word) as she writes. 

It could click when she builds up those skills.  

If she has trouble with blending and segmenting, it makes sense she wouldn’t be doing that.  It’s both — maybe a harder skill, and doing two things at the same time.  One thing is writing, one thing is thinking of the sound.  Over time ideally those two things will become very connected and automatic.  

 

[Heathermomster]

OP, your weekly schedule looks good.  LOE sells a lined dry erase board that might help with spelling and sentence writing.  Eta:  The Target dollar bins may have lined dry erase boards for sale.

My DS was diagnosed with the written expression SLD and learned to type by late 5th grade.  Typing is difficult for him, and he's never moved beyond 30 wpm.  By 7th grade, he typed all of his school work with the exception of math.  We quit handwriting practice by about 8th grade.  I was more concerned about content subject output and organization, and he required explicit writing instruct.  DS worked with an OG and IEW certified writing instructor for two years.  He worked with an OT for 4 weeks and a ped PT for about 5 weeks to address developmental motor issues and core/pincer strength, not letter formation.  His dysgraphia diagnosis was re-confirmed one month prior to high school graduation.

As a college sophomore, his accommodations include extra time, keyboard, and use of a SmartPen.  We would have preferred a notetaker, but the school prefers the SmartPen.  Anyways, the irony is that after no handwriting practice for over 4 years, his handwriting is now legible. ETA:  Dealing with the underlying motor issue while sorting the spelling and learning how to organize/express his thoughts on paper helped him way more than handwriting practice. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Heathermomster

[hepatica]

1 hour ago, mamashark said:

Does a formal diagnosis from a private psych cover this? Or do I have to go through the school system for testing to have documentation that will suffice? 

You would think a formal diagnosis would be sufficient, but IME it has not been. My DD also has a SLD written expression diagnosis from a private psych (which we paid a lot of money for).  She was diagnosed in middle school, when she was still homeschooled, so the school did not do the testing. When she entered the public high school in 9th grade the school was great about it. They looked at her neuropsych report, had a PPT meeting and gave her a 504 plan with extra time and computer accommodations. She has used these accommodations from day one and they have worked great. But, even though she has a school 504 plan, the College Board has already denied her computer accommodation twice. The school is gathering additional documentation from her current teachers and will continue to resubmit, but the College Board has a specific list of documentation that they want to see for computer accommodation. They don't seem to understand dyslexic dysgraphia very well, and seem to be looking for documentation of a motor coordination issue. 

The College Board claims in their 2017 policy revision that they will no longer second guess school officials or diagnoses by qualified professionals, but they don't really follow their own policies. Computer accommodations seem to fall in the category of exceptions to this policy. It is probably best to get as much documentation as possible. 

 

[hepatica]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

“Drawing” letters is the opposite of “automatic letter formation.”  

With automatic letter formation, you do not consciously think of how you write the letter, you just write it.

With automatic letter formation, two things in particular...... you can write the letter from memory, you don’t have to look at it..... you write and form the letter the same way every time.

For example... something I was told when my older son had an OT eval..... he wrote the alphabet copying a model (writing the letters underneath the model) and his letters looked one way.  He wrote the letters from memory and they looked different.  He also substituted capital letters when the letters were supposed to be all lower case.

I wouldn’t say he exactly “drew” his letters.  It was more like he copied them, or he guessed and did the best he could. 

 

This rings true to my DD's experience. She could copy but she could not write.

[hepatica]

30 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

 Sorting the spelling and learning how to organize and express his thoughts on paper helped him way more than handwriting practice. 

Agree with this. Working on the content of writing worked way better for us than working on handwriting. Using a computer has done more to improve spelling than all the spelling programs I have spent money on.

[Heathermomster]

None of the unis we looked at required the written essay scores for ACT/SAT, so we didn’t apply for the keyboard accommodation.  College Board irritates me on multiple levels, and I know people on the board have had success with them. I still hate them.  Anyhoo...We sought and received extended test taking accommodations with ACT.  They were awesome and responded within two weeks.

I’m not against penmanship practice, but there comes a time when you have to analyze your goals.  I had to really push my son with typing.  He was 11 yo and starting to be against it.  That all changed afterwards, but it was hard at the time.  He had dyslexic peers in 10th grade that hadn’t learned to type as they were so oppositional.  Hormones maybe?  Who can say, but DS wanted independence from me.  I write all this to say, OP, you are doing a great job.  Typing may be easier at aged 10-11 yo so don’t despair if she’s not ready in a years time.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Heathermomster

[mamashark]

1 minute ago, Heathermomster said:

None of the unis we looked at required the written essay scores for ACT/SAT, so we didn’t apply for the keyboard accommodation.  College Board irritates me on multiple levels, and I know people on the board have had success with them. I still hate them.  Anyhoo...We sought and received extended test taking accommodations with ACT.  They were awesome and responded within two weeks.

I’m not against penmanship practice, but there comes a time when you have to analyze your goals.  I had to really push my son with typing.  He was 11 yo and starting to be against it.  That all changed afterwards, but it was hard at the time.  He had dyslexic peers in 10th grade that hadn’t learned to type as they were so oppositional.  Hormones maybe?  Who can say, but DS wanted independence from me.  I write all this to say, OP, you are doing a great job.  Typing may be easier at aged 10-11 yo so don’t despair if she’s not ready in a year.s time.

well and to be honest, I'm not sure college is the right route for this particular child, so it may not be necessary in the end anyway, time will tell. I am going to add a bit of direct instruction for handwriting again, just to shore that up and make sure there's nothing I missed the first time around, and maybe drop back some on the Barton writing requirements as a compromise... Realistically the writing isn't my reason for doing Barton and it it is the part that really holds her up in the lessons right now.

[Heathermomster]

2 minutes ago, mamashark said:

well and to be honest, I'm not sure college is the right route for this particular child, so it may not be necessary in the end anyway, time will tell. I am going to add a bit of direct instruction for handwriting again, just to shore that up and make sure there's nothing I missed the first time around, and maybe drop back some on the Barton writing requirements as a compromise... Realistically the writing isn't my reason for doing Barton and it it is the part that really holds her up in the lessons right now.

And I didn’t use Barton, but if the writing is holding you back, letter tiles might help instead.  I’m curious to know how others managed that.

[mamashark]

Just now, Heathermomster said:

And I didn’t use Barton, but if the writing is holding you back, letter tiles might help instead.  I’m curious to know how others managed that.

true... the words are not the issue, they take time but it's not crazy time - it's the sentences and phrases. It just takes her so long to think about the spelling, and think about letter formation and write them down and keep the rest of the words in her head all at once.  We are working on other aspects of her working memory and language organization/processing speed, because all that ties into the issues too. I wonder if I had her spell them out loud, maybe as I wrote them down for her? That would give her the spelling practice anyway.

[hepatica]

I have done the Barton spelling words aloud with my son, especially the sight word review. You could also just cut back on the sentences and have her do one instead of three, or let her use the phrases she has already written in the sentences. I do think doing some of the Barton writing is valuable, but it is challenging. Hopefully as the rules become more solidified in her mind, the writing will get a bit easier. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

“Drawing” letters is the opposite of “automatic letter formation.”  

With automatic letter formation, you do not consciously think of how you write the letter, you just write it.

This is how my husband describes it. For the record, he has functional handwriting, but it's because he's learned to "draw" fast. He still doesn't feel like his writing is automatic. It helps him to write small, oddly enough. I suspect it's faster to write small, so he has to hold less in his working memory. He dictates anything long he has to write at work, and he does a lot of data entry at work for small things. He would take a scribe in a heartbeat (they are used in his line of work) if his employer would take that step. 

There is a cost/benefit for each kid with dysgraphia. My older son does better with some things if he writes them, so he writes them. Or shall I say he carves them into paper--every paper is embossed. Other things, he'd prefer to type them. It's an interesting split.

My younger son does much better typing. His dysgraphia has a connective tissue disorder component, which makes a difference. At a conference we went to for his condition, basically every kid and parent was asking about or reporting handwriting trouble to the point that I was surprised it doesn't get more attention in the "How to work with your school" part of the literature.

[Terabith]

I have a kid with "disorder of written expression" as her diagnosis.  It's peculiar though, because in practice I think she's really dyslexic.  But I taught her to read with a more or less OG method, and she's read above grade level since she started reading competently around age 8.  The two things she cannot do though are spelling and math calculation.  Her handwriting is fine.  No real issues.  Her typing is better but not what I think is good enough but I pretty much had to stop fighting about academics when she was nine because it was killing our relationship.  She has truly excellent verbal composing skills.  Her written skills (paragraphs and essays and such) are okay ish.  Not as good as I'd like them to be, especially given her exceptional verbal composition skills, but well within grade level.  Ideally I think something like Dragon Dictation would be really helpful for her, but the schools are not going to permit it, certainly not for a kid with legible handwriting.  

Weird quirk was she was completely unable to learn cursive.  I actually STARTED with cursive, and I was fooled for awhile because her copied cursive was beautifully drawn.  But she could neither read it nor could she compose independently even the simplest of words in it.  She can now slowly read cursive if it's very, very clear, but she still cannot compose anything in it.  She can sort of sign her name.  

[Lecka]

My oldest (14) is pretty functional at this point.  

He chose "keyboarding" as an elective last year when he got to choose electives, he got his "Introduction to the Skilled Trades" for 1st semester, and then it will be 2nd semester.  

He is extremely excited about his Skilled Trades class, they are going to build and wire a shed.  I asked him if he wanted to see about taking another shop-type class 2nd semester instead of keyboarding, and he told me he thinks he really needs to learn to type better.  

So ------ it's a big change from when he was younger.  Typing has gotten easier for him as he has gotten older.  It was *very hard* when he was younger.  He had trouble using a mouse when he was younger, as well, so it was just ------ a lot of frustration.  

 

[kbutton]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I actually STARTED with cursive, and I was fooled for awhile because her copied cursive was beautifully drawn.  But she could neither read it nor could she compose independently even the simplest of words in it.  She can now slowly read cursive if it's very, very clear, but she still cannot compose anything in it.  She can sort of sign her name.  

Interesting! My younger kiddo can write it but not read it fluently. If he's going to be writing for very long, he does it in cursive as it's less fatiguing. I have chalked it up to not having as much experience reading any handwriting--print or cursive, but maybe it's more organic than that.

We're past the days of letters in the mail on the regular or of notes written on the board/run through the mimeograph machine. A teacher with poor handwriting but a lot to say in notes goes a long way in making a person fluent in reading cursive handwriting, lol! 

[hepatica]

17 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have a kid with "disorder of written expression" as her diagnosis.  It's peculiar though, because in practice I think she's really dyslexic. 

I simply refer to my middle DD as dyslexic as well, even though her "official" diagnosis is written expression. It all goes back to the language processing.

[Lecka]

My son did cursive a while with OT, they thought it would help his letter formation (because it's smooth, and a lot of letters start the same way -- a lot of letters start like a lower-case C). 

But for him it was like -- if it's "this" hard to learn one set of letters, and they are the letters (maybe except an a, a g in some fonts) that are seen in things they read -- it is going to be pretty unreasonable to think he will learn a second set of letters, and they will be letters he sees much less.

Most of the letters we read look like print letters.  Lower-case g in fonts where it looks "different" were an issue here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I can't imagine doing that times x, and for letters he wasn't constantly seeing.  

Edit:  The cursive he did was just copying!   

Edited September 7, 2019 by Lecka

[Terabith]

12 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Interesting! My younger kiddo can write it but not read it fluently. If he's going to be writing for very long, he does it in cursive as it's less fatiguing. I have chalked it up to not having as much experience reading any handwriting--print or cursive, but maybe it's more organic than that.

We're past the days of letters in the mail on the regular or of notes written on the board/run through the mimeograph machine. A teacher with poor handwriting but a lot to say in notes goes a long way in making a person fluent in reading cursive handwriting, lol! 

Yeah, it was really a bit of an issue when they were attending Catholic school that was VERY into cursive and had cursive handwriting contests and wanted all kids to write in cursive.  And she had come into the school at third grade, when cursive became a big thing.  But it was pretty clear that it just was not happening for her, and the school was pretty pragmatic and willing to work with us.  In third grade, she just flat couldn't read anything written on the board by the teacher who had been teaching third grade there for fifty years.  Subsequent teachers were like, "Yeah, clearly this is like a foreign language for her."  (ETA:  It helped that the fourth grade teacher thought she was absolutely the coolest kid ever and adored her and would have done anything to help her, and the fifth grade teacher she had for half the day had completely illegible cursive so he printed everything anyway.)  And they wrote in manuscript, or at least read stuff aloud.  By middle school, teachers were mostly using power points and typed stuff.  And she could also slowly read small amounts of cursive by then, so it wasn't as big a deal.  But yeah, she couldn't even write the word dog in cursive. She just doesn't have a visual memory that includes what the letters look like in her mind enough to form them independently.

Theoretically, I would think cursive would be easier for her.  But even by age four, she was used to seeing typewritten words in books, and so that is what she would write in, even while I was trying to teach cursive first.  

Edited September 7, 2019 by Terabith

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

This is exactly my dd. I tried cursive first with both this dd and ds and she just couldn't do it. If she managed to copy some it was the equivalent of if I had had her copy Chinese symbols for all they meant. They weren't reinforcing the phonics, which I thought was part of the point with the Abeka program, so that's why I switched her to HWoT. Whereas cursive worked beautifully for ds to cure reversals (although he is not a fan and would rather print.). I think like you mention, maybe it's a visual memory thing with this dd. It's just not there right now. She can do print copywork all day long, and will do it for fun, but she can't read it. So I hope it's like @Lecka says and once we start Barton, and progress with the program maybe it will click more. But I am following this all with interest. 

That's exactly it.  It was essentially Chinese.  She also struggles with copying in general.  She has to copy letter by letter, and she loses her place after EVERY SINGLE LETTER.  There was never a point at which she could remember 3 or 4 letters and write them and then look to see what was next.  But I've often thought the lack of visual memory is one of her biggest issues.  

[prairiewindmomma]

On 9/6/2019 at 7:58 AM, HeighHo said:

Dysgraphia is remediated via penmanship lessons.  It is worth it to find a retired teacher who knows how the shoulder, body, and fingers should be working together to write - not draw - the words and to increase fluency.   The chair to table to body position needs to be correct, as does the paper position.

In the meantime, her vision should be checked - not screened, checked.  If she is new to glasses it may take some time to adjust. 

The OT can tell you the norms.

I just wanted to share our experience on this.  Ds did many years of OT, including two years of penmanship lessons with a retired teacher (in his 80s) who specialized in dysgraphia remediation. He had an Ed in learning disabilities and was paired with an OT who did gross motor work.  Ds is able to do perfect penmanship after all of this work but has never been able to reach a speed which is functional. When he writes for himself (making grocery lists, etc.) he still uses chicken scratch capital letters. 

Also, true dysgraphia is more than just handwriting. It is considered a SLD in the new DSM.  The vast majority of dysgraphics also have difficulties with other aspects of writing. 

Give remediation a good effort, but if it stalls out, know that life moves on and that there are many, many bright students who chicken scratch. Among my friends, I count about 15 lawyers, 8-9 doctors, and several engineers. You likely will, at some point, however, want to keep up the paper trail for standardized testing purposes. Handwriting an essay when you write at 1/10 of the speed of your peers isn't a level playing field.

 

OP--as to the amount of writing---that sounds about right. Don't let the school day get hung up on her ability to create written output.  Once she types well, things will be easier.

[Lecka]

Aethylryth — I do hope that is what happens.  It would be an expected progression I think.  But there are a lot better odds for reading remediation than handwriting remediation.  I think it’s good signs she likes to write and her handwriting is good!  But absolutely — if she doesn’t have that connection between the letter sound and the motor movement — she’s not getting things out of it that are “supposed to be” benefits of writing (or learning by writing) as far as copywork.   There is also “learning by writing” in more of a narration way — oral narration or scribing I believe give the same benefits as “learning by writing.”  Or maybe almost all the benefits — maybe not so much benefits of spelling, punctuation, capitalization, handwriting.  But all the other benefits of that kind of “learning by writing” I do think are there.  

For my 9th grader, let’s not talk about his handwriting.

For his writing when he types:  his spelling is good, his organization is good, he can get down what he would say if I were scribing for him.  This is all — with good meaning average, just to be clear.  He struggles with capitalization and punctuation.  Here and there he has a run-on sentence.  He tends to have things that are more the way you would say something causally instead of following written language conventions.  It’s definitely good enough!  He has come a long way.  

Edit:  I definitely think it’s worth trying to get that connection with handwriting.  But there’s a level of copywork where I think it’s expected to already be there, and that is where I think — it’s probably not doing what it’s “supposed to be” doing.  But I think it’s worthwhile to try to get the connection!  To me that would be more through things like spelling, and doing things as part of a reading program (tied to reading, reinforcing or trying to reinforce reading).  Something that’s above her reading level right now is probably not that helpful.  

I did all letter tiles when my son was younger.  I did tracing into things (he traced onto a rough pillow) instead of using a pencil.  It would have been a nightmare to use a pencil.

When he started OT I found out they kept up with multisensory methods for letter formation a lot longer, and liked big motor movements.  

But you daughter sounds like she does already have letter formation.  Maybe?

If she has good letter formation — maybe she isn’t connecting them with their letter sounds and their function as part of a word...... but she writes them the same way each time, she could write them from memory?  

Edited September 8, 2019 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Aethylryth — also, I do think it may not be visual memory.  It could just be the phonemic awareness and not having that “meaning” for the letters.  They don’t have a lot of meaning just as physical shapes, the meaning comes from the sounds they are associated with.  The hope is the meaning of the sounds increases with the phonemic awareness stuff.  

Then — when that is going better, the hope is that the Abeka-type stuff that is supposed to be reinforcing phonics or building the letter-sound associations (whatever level it is at I guess) *will actually do those things* because the phonemic awareness is now in place.  

If there’s a visual memory problem, it will just be on top of that.  The phonemic awareness is enough to cause what you are seeing right now (in my opinion), and hopefully it’s just that and she does go on to build those connections. 

The other thing is, I’m vague on this, but for letter formation a lot of it is motor memory.  Apparently motor memory and visual memory are not just the same.  

I think if you had an OT eval or something, they could say something about visual memory.

But for a lot of reading things, I think it’s too early too tell based on her reading, because of the phonemic awareness.

If it’s like she is copying a foreign language right now as far as the level of meaning — it doesn’t make sense to expect her to be constructing a lot of meaning.  The meaning is what helps memory.  If there’s no meaning, it’s hard to remember.  It would be like expecting someone to remember random words from a foreign language where they didn’t have an understanding of the language or how it worked, and it would just be memory with no meaning attached.  But that is not how good memories are formed, good memories have meaning attached.  

[Lecka]

Really with copywork like she’s doing — there’s supposed to be a feedback loop where as she copies, she knows what she is copying, and with exposure, she does make connections, she does make those letter-sound connections, and other spelling connections, etc.  But that is assuming that there is a foundation laid in phonemic awareness and — probably — in having learned letter-sound associations when single letters were being learned.  

I think there’s a chance you might end up going back to single letters at a time and single letter-sound associations.  And just focusing on a few at a time, so there’s less confusion.

But I think that will come up as you go through a reading program or a spelling program where it’s working for her.  

And she also might make a lot of connections with the phonemic awareness stuff, and then start to apply it with her copywork, without it being like “okay, we’re going back to single letters because we see she doesn’t associate the letter sounds.”  I think you can see as it comes up.

When she has a more solid level, I think then if you see some spelling or sight word issues, then that’s where maybe it’s visual memory.  And then — I think you could find that out now, but it’s too soon to say based on reading, because you wouldn’t really expect her to be doing well when her phonemic awareness is not as good, anyways.  

[Lecka]

The more connections she has the easier it will get 🙂. Whatever “easier” means lol.  

[mamashark]

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

Really with copywork like she’s doing — there’s supposed to be a feedback loop where as she copies, she knows what she is copying, and with exposure, she does make connections, she does make those letter-sound connections, and other spelling connections, etc.  But that is assuming that there is a foundation laid in phonemic awareness and — probably — in having learned letter-sound associations when single letters were being learned.  

So then copywork, outside the reading ability of the child, is pointless?

For example - I have her copy 1 sentence in science - I read her the sentence, pointing to the words, because she may or may not know what they are, and then she copies the sentences fairly well, but I doubt she could read the sentence back to me. In her neuropsych testing, she scored really high on the test that she had to restrict her impulse to read the word (say the color of the word rather than the word that is written in whatever color it may be in) because, as the psych explained, she doesn't have to inhibit her reading instinct, because she just isn't reading it at all. 

So I might be better off dropping the copywork, then, and working on explicit handwriting instruction at the level of her phonics skills/words she can read? 

[Lecka]

That’s my opinion. If you have seen her getting more from it, then I think that’s different.  Or if she likes it.  But yeah — I doubt it’s doing much of anything. The way copywork is supposed to work assumes some things that I don’t think are always the case.  But she might get more out of it pretty soon, too.  And she might like it, and then that goes a long way.  

[lewelma]

13 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I just wanted to share our experience on this.  Ds did many years of OT, including two years of penmanship lessons with a retired teacher (in his 80s) who specialized in dysgraphia remediation. He had an Ed in learning disabilities and was paired with an OT who did gross motor work.  Ds is able to do perfect penmanship after all of this work but has never been able to reach a speed which is functional. When he writes for himself (making grocery lists, etc.) he still uses chicken scratch capital letters. 

Also, true dysgraphia is more than just handwriting. It is considered a SLD in the new DSM.  The vast majority of dysgraphics also have difficulties with other aspects of writing. 

Give remediation a good effort, but if it stalls out, know that life moves on and that there are many, many bright students who chicken scratch. Among my friends, I count about 15 lawyers, 8-9 doctors, and several engineers. You likely will, at some point, however, want to keep up the paper trail for standardized testing purposes. Handwriting an essay when you write at 1/10 of the speed of your peers isn't a level playing field.

Seems like we have had similar efforts and results with penmanship work.  

1) At age 1 1 we spent 30 minutes a day trying to increase his speed.  Drill drill drill . He would write the same sentence multiple times (so he knew how to spell all the words, and what he was going to say). We set timers, we made sticker charts, we graphed progress, we kept positive. In all that time, he increased his speed from 6 words per minute to 9 words per minute. It was a COMPLETE waste of time. At that point we abandoned handwriting. Point being, even with huge effort, you can't always increase the speed.

2) Second thing you might find interesting about our experience with letter formation.  My ds can write numbers, so can think zero and write '0' with no trouble. But if he needs an 'o' to spell cot, he has told me that he thinks 'a-stop' because his a's are automated. So if he wants to write an 'o', he writes an 'a' and then stops the motion.  Same exact shape for his 0 and o, but the brain is perceiving of language differently. 

Interestingly, this child is currently writing a 15-page research paper comparing the level of development between Botswana and the Democratic Republic of the Congo from the point of cultural, historical, economic, and political differences.  And he struggles to write his name. Oh, how we love the brain!

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by lewelma

[kbutton]

18 hours ago, Terabith said:

She also struggles with copying in general.  She has to copy letter by letter, and she loses her place after EVERY SINGLE LETTER.  

That is a red flag for some retained reflexes--I think the ATNR and STNR affect this big time. My son had this problem. He's still dysgraphic after fixing it, but he doesn't have this specific problem now, which is helpful.

[prairiewindmomma]

7 hours ago, lewelma said:

Seems like we have had similar efforts and results with penmanship work.  

1) At age 1 1 we spent 30 minutes a day trying to increase his speed.  Drill drill drill . He would write the same sentence multiple times (so he knew how to spell all the words, and what he was going to say). We set timers, we made sticker charts, we graphed progress, we kept positive. In all that time, he increased his speed from 6 words per minute to 9 words per minute. It was a COMPLETE waste of time. At that point we abandoned handwriting. Point being, even with huge effort, you can't always increase the speed.

2) Second thing you might find interesting about our experience with letter formation.  My ds can write numbers, so can think zero and write '0' with no trouble. But if he needs an 'o' to spell cot, he has told me that he thinks 'a-stop' because his a's are automated. So if he wants to write an 'o', he writes an 'a' and then stops the motion.  Same exact shape for his 0 and o, but the brain is perceiving of language differently. 

Interestingly, this child is currently writing a 15-page research paper comparing the level of development between Botswana and the Democratic Republic of the Congo from the point of cultural, historical, economic, and political differences.  And he struggles to write his name. Oh, how we love the brain!

 

That's fascinating.

My ds, unfortunately, struggles with number formation as well. 

[PeterPan]

Jumping to the end here, 

On September 6, 2019 at 10:10 AM, mamashark said:

She has passed OT tests for fine motor control for writing ability.

Did the OT also test visual motor integration? Because I've had my ds through scads of OTs and they've been worthless. I mean we've done it, but none bothered to test VMI. The developmental optometrist did, turns out his VMI was in the toilet. 

So you can have all the fine motor you want, but if the eyeballs to brain to hand connection isn't working right, you're still screwed. And then you have the language to motor plan to hand. And you have the language to organization, hold in working memory, motor plan.

There are so many ways to glitch this.

I think you'll find numerous stories of kids who work on OTHER THINGS that were not handwriting and all of a sudden BOOM the handwriting came in. Like with my ds, we started having little daily drawing contests and his handwriting shot up. 

I think the amount your dd is doing is excessive, because it's wearing her out and leaving her unready to do her own personal writing. I would drop all handwriting expectations, find out what's actually wrong, work on composition together, and begin typing. For dysgraphia the minimum goal is life level amounts of writing. That means like filling in a check, writing a grocery list, maybe writing a brief thank you. So when we back off the forced handwriting for school and the fatigue of that, we give them some space to do the natural, creative amounts they might like to do that would be meaningful. For instance my ds, when we aren't forcing handwriting but are working on VMI, will start playing store and writing labels and tags. He'll play restaurant and write menus. This is meaningful to him, happy, playful, self-initiated. It tells me we've backed off enough that he's gotten his joy back. Doing too much or forcing more than they're really ready for can shut that down.

I would do *other* things that promote writing. I think it's ok to want automaticity, but I would be interested in studies or actual evidence on the best way to get that. My dd's handwriting FINALLY became automatic around 14 after years upon years of us working on it. So maybe look for some evidence before assuming. When there are delays, there are delays. Some things kind of come at last.

[Terabith]

On 9/8/2019 at 1:19 PM, mamashark said:

So then copywork, outside the reading ability of the child, is pointless?

For example - I have her copy 1 sentence in science - I read her the sentence, pointing to the words, because she may or may not know what they are, and then she copies the sentences fairly well, but I doubt she could read the sentence back to me. In her neuropsych testing, she scored really high on the test that she had to restrict her impulse to read the word (say the color of the word rather than the word that is written in whatever color it may be in) because, as the psych explained, she doesn't have to inhibit her reading instinct, because she just isn't reading it at all. 

So I might be better off dropping the copywork, then, and working on explicit handwriting instruction at the level of her phonics skills/words she can read? 

Yeah, I see absolutely no point in copywork that is beyond the ability of the child to read.  I was assuming that stuff was stuff she could read?  

[PeterPan]

Just now, Terabith said:

Yeah, I see absolutely no point in copywork that is beyond the ability of the child to read.  I was assuming that stuff was stuff she could read?  

Fwiw, if op's dc is in Barton 3, then she could be doing the spelling written by hand from Barton and shouldn't be reading outside stuff.

[mamashark]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, I see absolutely no point in copywork that is beyond the ability of the child to read.  I was assuming that stuff was stuff she could read?  

I was more using it for handwriting practice than reading practice... poorly thought through perhaps. 

 

[ktgrok]

On 9/6/2019 at 12:48 PM, kbutton said:

I think it sounds like a reasonable amount of work, but I would be leery of not correcting letter formation. I didn't get picky about neatness, spacing, placement on a line, size, etc. with my kids, but I was super picky about making sure they always form their letters the same way each time. I really didn't even care if it looked like the right letter if they followed the right motor pattern. Otherwise, they were basically practicing the wrong motor pattern to have to undo it later. 

I would require less writing if I felt like I had to compromise on letter formation. 

 

This. My son is basically ONLY writing during handwriting time. Otherwise he's practicing doing it wrong. 

On 9/7/2019 at 10:00 PM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

This is exactly my dd. I tried cursive first with both this dd and ds and she just couldn't do it. If she managed to copy some it was the equivalent of if I had had her copy Chinese symbols for all they meant. They weren't reinforcing the phonics, which I thought was part of the point with the Abeka program, so that's why I switched her to HWoT. Whereas cursive worked beautifully for ds to cure reversals (although he is not a fan and would rather print.). I think like you mention, maybe it's a visual memory thing with this dd. It's just not there right now. She can do print copywork all day long, and will do it for fun, but she can't read it. So I hope it's like @Lecka says and once we start Barton, and progress with the program maybe it will click more. But I am following this all with interest. 

Ha! This is me. I STILL don't know all the cursive letters, and while teaching my DD have to look up how to make them on youtube! I'm nearly positive I have dysgraphia, and all they did for me in school back then was have me sit in the back of the room and copy pages out of the dictionary. I was an adult when i found out that handwriting shouldn't HURT! I thought it hurt everyone. Even now, I get pain in my hand just from say filling out a form at the doctor's office. I type everything. 

On 9/8/2019 at 2:41 AM, prairiewindmomma said:

I just wanted to share our experience on this.  Ds did many years of OT, including two years of penmanship lessons with a retired teacher (in his 80s) who specialized in dysgraphia remediation. He had an Ed in learning disabilities and was paired with an OT who did gross motor work.  Ds is able to do perfect penmanship after all of this work but has never been able to reach a speed which is functional. When he writes for himself (making grocery lists, etc.) he still uses chicken scratch capital letters. 

Also, true dysgraphia is more than just handwriting. It is considered a SLD in the new DSM.  The vast majority of dysgraphics also have difficulties with other aspects of writing. 

Give remediation a good effort, but if it stalls out, know that life moves on and that there are many, many bright students who chicken scratch. Among my friends, I count about 15 lawyers, 8-9 doctors, and several engineers. You likely will, at some point, however, want to keep up the paper trail for standardized testing purposes. Handwriting an essay when you write at 1/10 of the speed of your peers isn't a level playing field.

 

OP--as to the amount of writing---that sounds about right. Don't let the school day get hung up on her ability to create written output.  Once she types well, things will be easier.

I find that dysgraphic kids/adults also drop words, etc, not just form the letters badly. And yes to whomever said the letters are not automatic. I can write the letter A three times and it will look different each time. And I drop letters in words often, despite being able to spell them properly when I type. 

[prairiewindmomma]

48 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 

I find that dysgraphic kids/adults also drop words, etc, not just form the letters badly. And yes to whomever said the letters are not automatic. I can write the letter A three times and it will look different each time. And I drop letters in words often, despite being able to spell them properly when I type. 

Katie—is it better with your ADD meds going? It’s a correlation I have noticed with another son...

[ktgrok]

15 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Katie—is it better with your ADD meds going? It’s a correlation I have noticed with another son...

Hmm...I still drop letters, but it's consistently the same ones I always drop...havent' done much writing by hand to notice recently other than that. So for instance, I almost always handwrite the word "the" without the "h". 

[hepatica]

I'm still not sure I understand the fine motor part of dysgraphia. The College Board is insistent that you have to show a fine motor issue for computer accommodations. I think my DD15 was given some sensorimotor test that included finger tapping and imitating hand positions (I'd have to check the report to refresh my memory), but the scores weren't awful. In any case, the test was scored in large percentile blocks rather than specific percentiles. She had just a couple of scores that seemed somewhat low, I think, but mostly not that bad. She can draw pretty well, and enjoys it, and she learned cursive in second and third grade and it looked ok, and she has had classical guitar lessons since she was age 3, so lots of fine motor coordination there, but she still cannot write (compose) by hand.  So, when I think about it, it seems the issue really is with the language processing and not the fine motor. In other words, when language is not involved you wouldn't really notice her as having a fine motor issue.

I find the College Board requirements very frustrating. They repeatedly state that poor handwriting is not a justification for computer accommodations, as if poor handwriting is just the same words written poorly. But my experience has been that using the computer has a huge impact on content. She can't write the same kind of sentences, with the same vocabulary and phrasing by hand that she can write on the computer (and this is not using any kind of speech predictor or grammar program,  just typing in a standard word processor). It's almost like she is a beginning foreign language student trying to compose sentences when she is writing by hand. There is no automaticity. 

It's all very frustrating.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, hepatica said:

The College Board is insistent that you have to show a fine motor issue for computer accommodations. I think my DD15 was given some sensorimotor test that included finger tapping and imitating hand positions (I'd have to check the report to refresh my memory), but the scores weren't awful.

Was this neuropsych testing? I can tell you the ps doesn't bother with all that when they do their evals. Can you get a 504/IEP through the ps? Isn't the CB now saying they'll take that?

You're wanting computer for the bubbling or for the writing test? If it's only tests with writing, can you go another way around, like doing CLEP or a cc class?