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This is rude...right?


happi duck
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(I attempted a poll but couldn't figure it out!)

I feel like I'm going crazy.  The following is rude...right?

I'm standing in a room with another person.  I begin speaking and other person stops moving but stays silent and facing toward the exit.  I pause for their response and they silently exit.

I think this is always rude and one should at least glance at the person speaking and should at least make some sort of noise in response. (Or say I don't want to talk.)  Seriously, a glance and a grunt would have been a vast improvement.

It was content they don't like if that makes a difference.  

This is not JAWM but please be nice to me.  I'm really rattled.

Eta: clarification from downthread: not a stranger, happened at home

Edited by happi duck
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2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Were they hearing impaired or disabled?  If you don’t know, I’d assume they had a good personal reason for not engaging, anything from social anxiety to just plain not hearing you.

Yes, it might seem a little rude.  But I also don’t think they owe you social niceties if they can’t or don’t want to engage.

Just to clarify, this isn't a stranger and happened at home.

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With your clarification, yes, rude. Unless there's a ton more history. Like, for example, if this came on the heels of a long history of you trying to address this topic and the other person explaining why they were done discussing that topic with you. Otherwise, it's fine not to want to discuss something in the moment or not having anything to say, but in that case, you should say that before excusing yourself. Like, "I need some time to process that," or, "You and I just don't see eye to eye on this," or, "I really am not in the right headspace to have this discussion right now." Things along those lines would all be fine before leaving.

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16 minutes ago, happi duck said:

(I attempted a poll but couldn't figure it out!)

I feel like I'm going crazy.  The following is rude...right?

I'm standing in a room with another person.  I begin speaking and other person stops moving but stays silent and facing toward the exit.  I pause for their response and they silently exit.

I think this is always rude and one should at least glance at the person speaking and should at least make some sort of noise in response. (Or say I don't want to talk.)  Seriously, a glance and a grunt would have been a vast improvement.

It was content they don't like if that makes a difference.  

This is not JAWM but please be nice to me.  I'm really rattled.

i am assuming this is a family member and guessing this is not the first time he or she has acted this way. I'm also assuming you have addressed it in those other situations.

Yes, it is rude.

 

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Given the clarification I'd say it was at the very least disrespectful.   I'd need more to know if it was also rude or just someone enforcing boundaries.   For example, if it's a tween or teen who just ignored me in the context of an otherwise uneventful day, I'd be livid.   If it was DH and I'd been harping about something I'd stop and consider if silence was the best boundary he knew how to draw in that moment.

If it was a child and I'd been harping, it would depend on the context.  It might be the most appropriate thing they were capable of in the moment, or it might be a reason to get grounded until their attitude changed.  Impossible to know without knowing the context and family dynamic.

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My children will do this when they don't like or are not interested in what I am saying. I consider it rude. I think it is important for them to make an effort to acknowledge people who are speaking to them, even when they are not happy with the content.  Although it annoys me personally, my larger reason for working on the skill with them, instead of letting it slide, is that it is not just about their interactions with me. This behavior would come across as rude to an employer, co-worker, roommate, or spouse, in my opinion, and I consider it part of my job as a parent to teach social skills.

We have other habits here that are similar, though not identical, such as putting or keeping earbuds in when someone is talking to you.

If it is not a child but my husband, I would also consider it rude, and I would have conversations about how that behavior makes me feel, so that we could develop better communication habits.

If it is another adult, such as a friend or co-worker, I would consider it rude but not say anything about it. Because improving their social skills is not my role.

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I’d need so much more context to pass judgment.  I’m a pro-conflict personality married to a conflict avoider, with 5 kids at different levels of comfort. In many cases, any one of them might add a glare to that silence, depending on the content of the remarks.  Or a “spirited discussion” might break out.  Anything could happen, depending on our moods at the time.  So I wouldn’t *necessarily label it as rude.  If a door were slammed right after, I would.  We all have our own tolerance levels!

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There isn't enough info for me to determine if it's rude. 

Example, my mom lives with us and she will often bring up a subject that has already been discussed at length because of her anxiety about the subject. If I feel like we've covered it thoroughly and I've told her before that we can discuss it again once XYZ happens or whatever, I will walk out of the room and not acknowledge her if she decides to ignore my request to be done discussing. That is not rude, that is setting a healthy boundary with someone who tries to shift their issues onto me.

I also think if you were making a statement and not asking a question no response is necessary. You know they heard you because they stopped walking out the door until you were done talking.

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your implication was this was a family member.  sounds like there is a communication problem.

in those circumstances, not sure I'd refer to it as rude, that would really depend upon what was being said, why, to whom, etc. - and just how triggered the person being spoken to is.

but working on communication between the two people sounds like something that needs work.

this presupposes this person isn't a narcissist/similar who would deliberately play mind games (which generally makes those around them wonder if they, themselves, are crazy.)

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45 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

i am assuming this is a family member and guessing this is not the first time he or she has acted this way. I'm also assuming you have addressed it in those other situations.

Yes, it is rude.

 

yes, this is correct and part of why I feel crazy

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It isn’t respectful, that’s for sure, if it’s coming from a child or a partner. 

Although I will say I did do almost this same thing yesterday when dh was nagging me about taking ds to the doctor. After a certain point, I just stopped interacting with him. Although I would still say it wasn’t very respectful. 

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4 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I think it's rude.  I also think that sometimes being rude is justified to set a boundary.  

To offer you two examples.

If I said to my 12 year old "I expect you to clean your room before you go to Johnny's house." and he reacted the way you describe, I would consider it rude and would explain that I expected acknowledgement.  

On the other hand, I have a relative who constantly questions medical decisions I make for my son.  When she says something like "I just don't understand how you could put that child through (insert medically necessary procedure here).  Hasn't he been through enough?"  Then I figure that my rudeness in justified, and that she's lucky that I'm just staying turned away and not calling her unprintable names or bursting into tears.  

 

this.  (we don't have enough information to know the context of the conversation in the question)

even if it's just an acquaintance - if you've already discussed this, and they keep bringing it up  … sometimes you need to stop trying to teach the pig to sing and just walk away.  I don't see that as rude so much as enforcing a boundary.

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16 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:


If they haven't already tried setting the boundary verbally I agree with you.  In my case, I have.  

yeah - if a person has already tried to set a verbal boundary and the other person keeps bring it up, - then more "verbal boundary" is just a waste of breath.

for family - this is a communication problem, and I would address it from that - without getting into the subject "not" being "discussed".

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1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’d need so much more context to pass judgment.  I’m a pro-conflict personality married to a conflict avoider, with 5 kids at different levels of comfort. In many cases, any one of them might add a glare to that silence, depending on the content of the remarks.  Or a “spirited discussion” might break out.  Anything could happen, depending on our moods at the time.  So I wouldn’t *necessarily label it as rude.  If a door were slammed right after, I would.  We all have our own tolerance levels!

 

I have learned to agree with this so much, especially the last sentence, as I have matured through life.  I do not mean that maturity makes accepting other people's rudeness something to be strived for, I just see, with gained experience, that people/families are so varied in their ways of communicating.  

If this were a child, I would follow up and explain that the proper social norm is to acknowledge communication each time, in some polite way.  If they feel exiting is necessary to avoid conflict, they should face the person and tell them so, as other's have stated above.

If this were an adult, it depends on the person and so many other things.  Well, it IS rude behavior, but why they showed this behavior determines how I would handle it.  Were they raised thinking this was acceptable?  Are they working on not losing their temper in even more rude ways, and exiting was the best they could muster in this occurrence on their journey of conflict management?  Was a verbal fight involved, or about to begin?  IMO, this person needs to hear that you find this offensive behavior and would appreciate acknowledgment each time you speak.  This will, hopefully, open the door to improved communication with others, as well.  None of us behaves well all of the time.  If this was an adult who is also a spouse, helping them make changes through gentle guidance/suggestion/request, while giving an occasional pass, helps more than reacting defensively right back.

Edited by Familia
grammar, always grammar!
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Not enough info

but I think I’d probably—at another time use the 

approach,

”Hey, I felt really rattled when I said ___, and you walked out without saying anything.  What’s up?” 

Especially if it’s a tween/teen. Modified to more education about what you would expect as a response depending on the person. (Your child for example, might need coaching to reply something like, “I know, mom, I’ll drive carefully.” Or whatever. 

and modified also if it’s an adult 

”Hey, I felt really rattled when I said ___, and you walked out without saying anything.  I can’t read your mind. What’s up?” 

 

or also different if it’s a frequent situation and you do already know the other person’s POV on the matter 

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1 hour ago, happi duck said:

This thread is helpful because I'm guessing that I am on the receiving end of an unspoken boundary.  (For what, I really don't know.  I'll ask.)

I personally would still say "I'm not going to discuss this with you" or "I'm going in the other room now".  

Or you could simply be experiencing bad treatment that has become a habit. 

In a healthy family relationship, I don't think you are being unreasonable to expect someone to look at you when you are talking to each other (unless for example, you are driving). I also don't think it unreasonable to ask for a verbal or non-verbal acknowledgement that you said something. 

many people on this board are so quick to jump to "boundaries!" But in this case, I think it is an over reach, especially in an otherwise healthy relationship.

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1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

Not enough info.

It is not always rude to silently exit after someone has unloaded on you.  Sensory overload, the realization that the unloader is going to go off again if you do or say anything,...lots of reasons but they all avoid not wanting to trigger further useless engagement, as eye contact or a verbal response would invite.  Its not rude to avoid WWIII.

 

For clarification, it wasn't unloading.  If that were the case I'd presume  I made them angry and wouldn't feel confused.

 

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Well, my husband does this and I perceive it as rude. If I am in a room and talking to you and you leave without responding, it tends to feel like you don't care about what i am saying.   And to clarify, it's not that there is any disagreement. If I say something, he will just say, "oh, well I thought you were done talking."  I don't get it either.

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was it by chance my ds15??? I thought he was at work yesterday but maybe he was having a visit to your house??

 so far the only word he has spoken to me in the last 4 days is yes.

 the last 2 years have been really hard for him (since we had that awful 6 months with twins bio brother ) and he hasn't really spoken above 7 words a day since. most days he doesn't say a single word at all, not one.

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Assuming it couldn't be a hearing or understanding issue ....

"It was content they don't like" tells me they decided to leave rather than fight with you about it.  And while that might be rude in some situations, it might also be rude/unkind to knowingly bring up "content they don't like."

I live with people who like to talk about things I don't like to talk about.  Usually I will smile and remind them that I don't wish to discuss that.  That rarely works.  If i walk away when it continues, it's because I know it's gonna get ugly if I stay, and I'm just trying to maintain peace.  If it's rude to maintain peace, I'm sorry.

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While I can see it as a way to avoid additional conflict, I can also see it as plain rudeness.

In my house, I have recently had several "talks" with youngsters about "giving me the back of their heads" when I am talking.  Apparently the natural tendency to make eye contact when spoken to goes away around age 12, and we must spell it out as an element of respect.  I would note that these are not times when I am talking about things that offend them - unless previously normal parent-child conversation recently became offensive.  (Which is possible!?)

My suggestion would be to tell the giver-of-silent-treatment what is OK behavior when a family member has said something you don't want to listen to.  That they need to make eye contact and find calm words that mean "I can't/won't discuss this." Or at least "I need to go, bye."  And for your part, you need to agree to stop talking about that topic when the person does that.

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6 hours ago, Pen said:

Not enough info

but I think I’d probably—at another time use the 

approach,

”Hey, I felt really rattled when I said ___, and you walked out without saying anything.  What’s up?” 

Especially if it’s a tween/teen. Modified to more education about what you would expect as a response depending on the person. (Your child for example, might need coaching to reply something like, “I know, mom, I’ll drive carefully.” Or whatever. 

and modified also if it’s an adult 

”Hey, I felt really rattled when I said ___, and you walked out without saying anything.  I can’t read your mind. What’s up?” 

 

or also different if it’s a frequent situation and you do already know the other person’s POV on the matter 

 

I just realized when I say these types of things, I don’t expect to get a response.  Certainly not immediately, possibly not ever.  

But it gives me a chance to briefly express how I feel about it, not a lecture, and they (as singular gender neutral pronoun!)  can respond, or not. 

 

But also, something somewhat like that happened today with ds17 and I think what was mainly behind it was being hungry, tired, hot, and internally a little distressed about the subject. 

 

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2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

Since it was 'content they don't like',  I would guess they don't want to get into a discussion, or listen to more content, as they declined to respond and exited.   What is confusing you?

I see what you're saying.  The content was an emotion I was having and they don't "do emotion".  I was rattled by leaving without even acknowledging I spoke even though I was sharing an emotion I had.

Thanks for the viewpoint.

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Thanks for all the viewpoints!

We spoke.  In response to my emotion, "I'm feeling distraught" they did not know what to say so just left.  I asked them to say "I don't want to talk" or "gotta jet" or something. :). I'll see if it sticks.

I was assured it was not a boundary or holding back, just nothing to say.

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8 minutes ago, happi duck said:

I see what you're saying.  The content was an emotion I was having and they don't "do emotion".  I was rattled by leaving without even acknowledging I spoke even though I was sharing an emotion I had.

Thanks for the viewpoint.

You needed validation and it wasn't provided. Instead you were ignored.

That is tough.

Edited by maize
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1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

The acknowledgement was pausing and hearing you out before exiting.  It would be nice if they said 'i'm sorry to hear that, how can i help', but if there is no help that can be offered they can't really say that.

If you want them to do something after you express your emotion, just say that in the next sentence.  for example, "I am feeling anxious.  Could you sit quietly with me for a few minutes until the feeling passes? "  Maybe a therapist could help you with some other concrete suggestions.

 

That sounds like a really good idea!

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Totally rude.  Beyond rude.  If it is a teen or young adult they get a small pass...if it is your husband he needs to grow up. 

I had a husband like this for 26 years.  I would ask him a question and he would TOTALLY ignore me.  So I was left thinking...did he hear me? Should I ask if he heard me?  Ugh.  Flashbacks. Maddening way to live.  

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The only comment I have with the additional information is that it does somewhat depend on who the other person was. I would share feelings of being distraught with my spouse or a close adult friend but I would not put that on one of my kids. (That doesn’t mean that I don’t share feelings with my kids. It’s just that “distraught “ seems pretty intense and heavy.  I don’t think that either of my young adults would be able to respond to me telling them that.)

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7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The only comment I have with the additional information is that it does somewhat depend on who the other person was. I would share feelings of being distraught with my spouse or a close adult friend but I would not put that on one of my kids. (That doesn’t mean that I don’t share feelings with my kids. It’s just that “distraught “ seems pretty intense and heavy.  I don’t think that either of my young adults would be able to respond to me telling them that.)

I agree 

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The added context is a big deal.  I was thinking of scenarios that might be similar to reminding a child about chores or telling a spouse about a financial purchase or in-law issue... that kind of content.

I have someone who has difficulty hearing negative emotions.  I don’t think of it as rude, but it is definitely painful. Joint therapy helps.

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If this is an adult walking away when you express deep emotions - and those emotions are appropriate to share with that adult - then the hearer needs to be educated in helpful ways to respond to that kind of communication.

If this is someone other than your spouse, the first question would be, was this an appropriate emotion to share with this person?  If not, then I would leave it at that.

If this was appropriate to share, then the second question is how to teach them better.  Definitely wait until everyone is in a better mood.  Use whatever communication method this person responds to best.  Discuss helpful responses (I'm sorry.  I hear you.  Is there anything I can do to help?  Do you want to tell me more about it?  Would it help for me to come back at X:00 and talk it over?....)  Also agree on a phrase that is safe to use when the person does not know what else to say/do.

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12 hours ago, happi duck said:

Thanks for all the viewpoints!

We spoke.  In response to my emotion, "I'm feeling distraught" they did not know what to say so just left.  I asked them to say "I don't want to talk" or "gotta jet" or something. :). I'll see if it sticks.

I was assured it was not a boundary or holding back, just nothing to say.

I'm really sorry you were alone with your pain. I know you have been through so much the past few years.

(((happi duck)))

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I stand by my belief that it's rude... but with the added context... I think some people (especially some folks on the spectrum, but some other folks too) are just cruddy at helping other process their emotions and have zero ability to be a support, even when it would be an appropriate thing to do. Several things occur to me. One, it may not have been an attempt to draw a boundary by this person, who may actually care that you were distraught, but obviously in a practical sense, they're not going to ever be a great support person for your emotions. You need another outlet who isn't this person. And when you express emotions to this person, maybe they need to be tied to a specific thing you need from them. Like, "I'm distraught about this. Therefore, can you take care of the dishes/give me some time alone/take the kids out/whatever thing you need while I deal with it."

Two, maybe you need to give this person a script. Like, if dealing with others' emotions is really that challenging for them and they really aren't trying to blow you off but have no clue what to say to the extent that they would just leave you there upset, then maybe you need to give them some canned phrases to say. Not just, "I can't talk about this," but things like, "I understand you're upset." And finally, if this person is someone who you really need to rely on emotionally on some level, like a spouse or a close sibling or something, maybe you need counseling together. Even just a little bit could be beneficial to get a mediator to help bridge the gap in communication.

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I've only had time to read part of this discussion due to time constraints, but it reads as extremely feminized to me.  I have 3 older brothers, so I get that sometimes a male, or a female with more stereo-typical male personality traits, can be so angry that anything other than silence and complete physical control like freezing or removing oneself from the situation are required to reign in their reaction to someone.  Expecting verbalization can be unrealistic. Separating themselves from the conflict is the responsible thing to do and that action speaks for itself.  There is a biological reason people can be rendered speechless in moments of intense emotion.  I think our smaller families in the last few generations have left many women unaware of this because they don't have enough experience with a very wide range of males in a wide range of emotionally intense situations growing up. It's been a tragic loss for men in some respects.

Was it rude?  Maybe, maybe not, it all depends what's going on with the person and there isn't enough information to go on in the original post.  I'm not at all saying this how a person should typically handle most conflict situations, but it's definitely an appropriate reaction in some situations.  Unless we know the details of the conversation and the history, there's no way to say with any degree of certainty. Those kinds of details may not be appropriate online.

ETA: I should probably state explicitly that when someone tells you straight out they don't do emotion and you insist that they do emotion there's a high likelihood that they'll react with some sort of anger because from their point of view they told you no and you didn't take no for an answer.

Edited by Homeschool Mom in AZ
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14 hours ago, StellaM said:

It's a tragic loss for men that they sometimes have to learn new emotional skills ?
That's not what I said at all.  You either didn't read my post carefully or you consciously went off the deep end to extremes.  That's not useful in this discussion.

What is it with these boards lately, and their 'poor blokes' narrative ?

Acknowledging that generally speaking, males and females are different and can commonly respond differently is not "poor blokes."  Again, you've gone off the deep end to the extremes by mischaracterizing what what I posted.

Firstly, all of us posting 'know' Happi, and if we bothered to apply our memories to her posts and experiences, we 'know' that she is a perfectly appropriate person who happens to have suffered quite a lot over the last few years. In precisely no universe is it unacceptable for her to say to her another adult of either sex in her family 'I just feel completely distraught' - what a shocker! Of course she does, and I'm a stranger on the interwebs.

Don't be naive, we don't know anything about each other online like you describe. No one is perfectly appropriate all the time, social interactions and family dynamics are complex, nuanced, historied, and complicated, as is each individual interaction, including the one she gave very little specific information about.   Knowing that, I did leave room for both the possibility of the response being rude and the response being an attempt to not lash out inappropriately. 

Males do not have a part of their brain that prevents them from learning pro-social ways of coping with uncomfortable emotion.
I didn't say it was only males, but I was talking about a male in this particular situation. And we do know that males tend to be less verbal than females, and we know that males tend to be more prone to physically lashing out, making a well socialized male aware of this and possibly motivated to restrain himself completely (verbally silent and removing himself physically.)

There is brain research about people in intensely emotional states not being able to speak at those times because the parts of their brains that handle fight/flight and threat and anger are engaged, not the speech center parts.  An angry male is more likely to experience this. Adoptive parents of traumatized children are taught about this (BTDT) and warned that engaging verbally and requiring verbal responses is unreasonable when (not only trauma historied) people are very angry about something.  It applies universally to people, so people should be aware of it. I hear precious little about this outside of adoption and teen parenting circles, but it's still applicable.  It's usually women who disregard it, but I do sometimes hear men articulate the need to give people space to calm down before verbally engaging. 


It is not beyond the capabilities of a male to learn how to respond to a distraught loved one with  'I hear you, but I can't respond right now. I just need to step away to sort my own reaction out.'

And no one said it was.  You'll notice, after a much more careful reading, that what I was discussing was the overstepping of an established boundary scenario  (someone said no, someone ignored no) which if OP did refer to as a possibility in a previous post.  I also addressed it from one person's point of view, meaning it wouldn't necessarily be seen that way by everyone.  Again there's complexity and nuance, no overly simplistic men=good or men=bad. 

My husband works in software engineering-one of the most male dominated environment with men who are the least likely to physically act out or rage, but it's very well known that even these highly educated men have very poor verbal communication skills, they're far less likely to be emotionally intuitive, and they commonly struggle with the expression and reception of emotion-and I mean just the ones not on the spectrum.  It's very common when emotions do run high that meetings or communications are temporarily suspended so everyone can cool down because verbal negotiations aren't going to be productive.  After the cool down, things can usually get fixed verbally. I suggest women keep this in mind when they're not getting verbal engagement from someone.

Yes, it is possible for men who struggle with other people's emotions to learn to do these things, but not in the heat of an angry moment.  Being upset and learning is yet another topic adoptive parents like me have be trained to deal with.  Again, scientifically we know that when cortisol is washing the brain in high stress situations, people can't learn things very well at all.  They need to be in a calm state.  Lecturing or hurtfully explaining to an angry person on social norms when they're really upset is completely pointless.  Sure, it might make the other person feel good to know they're right about social norms when they tell the angry person they're wrong , but it won't solve the problem.  It will pile on.  If they can step back and wait for things to cool down and appreciate that the angry person refrained from lashing out, there's a chance they could build from there. 

It's going to have to start with looking at what built up to things:  What's going on with someone who said they "Don't do emotion?"  Is this childhood patterning?  Is this person shut down due to some other reason?  Is there some sort of Autism Spectrum going on? Are there boundaries being established, defended, and over stepped by the people involved? A personality disorder?  Character issues? People with serious underlying issues going on run out of bandwidth eventually.  They get into crisis/survival mode and shut everything else down.  That's a very big deal that needs more than just a script mirroring back the other person's emotions.

As to the leap to male anger - what ? Why would males be angry about a loved one being sad and overwhelmed ?

With the OP not being able to give details we don't know if this is the root cause of the anger, or if something deeper and ongoing is at the bottom of it.  We we do have the information that the person said, " I don't do emotion." and the OP seeming to insist someone who said such a strange thing engage in comforting emotion.  I clearly stated in my post that if that's going on then it will likely be perceived as over stepping a boundary.  People get angry when that happens whether or not the boundary they set is appropriate or not.  

I also wonder if the OP has had previous experiences like this with this person.  If she has, then it seems unrealistic to me to go to this person for comfort.  If she hasn't and this person has been a source of comfort before, this is a HUGE red flag that something very serious is going on with this person.  Dramatic changes like that don't happen for no reason.  If this is ongoing, then there's likely history where this person has seen telling, signaling, demonstrating they are a bad candidate for comfort but the OP is still insisting on it.  Family counseling is a much better approach to solving that problem instead of continuing on with this destructive pattern.


Any man who responds to that with anger is not a good man, and probably needs to take himself off to anger therapy. Women don't express genuine emotion to manipulate men. And I am 100% confident that Happi didn't!

No one is suggesting manipulation, just recalibrating to more realistic expectations.  Either:

This is his normal and has been-find out why and treat the issue(s) with the appropriate specialist while the OP, under the guidance of the counselor, recalibrates expectations and boundaries in the mean time.
or
This is not his normal-find out why and treat the issue(s) with the appropriate specialist while the OP, under the guidance of the counselor, recalibrates expectations and boundaries in the mean time.

 

All of us - male and female - sometimes respond to the needs of close others in less than optimal ways, and both male and female individuals can have individual reasons why it takes more work and effort for them to respond in a better way.  The appropriate response there is 1. apologise later 'Hey, sorry I didn't acknowledge what you said. ' or 2. do the (unfairly more- yes - so what, life's not fair ) amount of work it takes to learn to respond/apologise.

Yes, he might, but we don't know if the OP owes can apology for contributing in the past to anything that built up to it, and even so, this probably requires intervention by a family counselor at least, maybe a psychiatrist.

Men are not Neanderthals - they are not disadvantaged in their vocal abilities - they are very capable humans, as capable as women. If a woman can learn to respond in pro-social ways to family members or friends, it's almost insulting to men to say they will struggle.

Again you are an over simplifier, and that's not conducive to these kinds of discussions.  You consistently mischaracterize.   

Anyway, Happi. My personal opinion of you is that you are a pretty straightforward person, who has had a really rough time of it, in regard to which feelings of distraughtness are totally understandable, and you deserve verbal acknowledgement of your feelings. 

 

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