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heartlikealion

Huge ICE raid in my state

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9 hours ago, Janeway said:

ery single person in the US who is arrested while they have children with them have the children taken from them and placed elsewhere while the legal issues are worked out. 

Every single person in the US who is arrested can have their children sent to relatives or friends for emergency placement.  Granted, it isn’t always the case that they have relatives or friends to place them with, or that they’ll be approved, but the first priority is to get them in a safe and loving environment in which to deal with the trauma of being separated.

If my husband and I get arrested in some crazy misunderstanding, I know my kids will be well cared for with local friends. At *worst, they’d get sent out of state to stay with family. They’ll never sleep on concrete, lack a toothbrush, or be imprisoned with other scared children.

ETA: And they’d get a lawyer AND guardian ad litem.

Edited by Carrie12345
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I feel a need to throw this out there.

I know that I would steal for my kids.
I would lie for my kids.
I would die for my kids.
I would kill for my kids.
All assuming, of course, I didn’t have any other viable options.  And I’m not even going to pretend I haven’t thought about under what conditions I would take them to another country to protect them. Heck, I currently pay more than $15,000/yr *just in case* someone in my family might get sick or injured.  I’ll do whatever it takes to get them what they need.

I am so glad I don’t have to do any of those illegal things today, but it’s only by dumb luck that I didn’t do much to win. Nor did they.  We hit the universe’s lottery. It doesn’t make me or them better or more worthy or special in any way. And it doesn’t make anyone else less so.

I don’t have the magic answer to logistics, but I do know it isn’t going to be found in the denial of real people’s desperation or in further traumatizing terrified children.  Their humanness doesn’t get paused while we weigh and measure their circumstances and take society’s temperature.  And ours shouldn’t be, either.

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6 hours ago, Amira said:

There really isn’t good evidence that many children at the border are being trafficked. Here’s a link to myths about trafficking, and I can post more data showing that trafficking victims in the US are usually citizens, and those who aren’t usually enter the US legally and afterward experience sexual or labor trafficking.  https://polarisproject.org/human-trafficking-myths-and-facts

However, it is very true that trafficking is a serious issues facing forcibly displaced people and we should be paying attention to this worldwide. https://www.unhcr.org/unhcr-human-trafficking.html

Human smuggling is the term that better describes what some fear is happening at the border.  But we really don’t have good data showing how many children are being smuggled across the border.  There’s also a new debate about whether parents should be considered smugglers simply for bringing their children with them on the journey.  We criminalize so many with that kind of thinking.  People have to be able to get out of bad situations without being accused of smuggling their own children.

Even if you do believe that most of these children are victims of human smuggling, I don’t understand how the current policy of detention is helping them.  I feel like the trafficking/smuggling argument is being used to justify harsh policies at the border.  But if these children were actually vicitims, how can these policies be helping them?  A victim of human smuggling should be reunited with their parents as quickly as possible while waiting in a safe and caring space.  They should have toothbrushes and showers.  Competent adults should supervise them.  Their legal rights should be protected.  They should be educated.  These things are not happening.

These children are victims.  Maybe I think it’s because of gangs or war or other unsafe situations at home.  Maybe you think it’s because of trafficking or smuggling.  But no matter what, the current policies are re-victimizing them, and that cannot be right.  We cannot allow it to become acceptable.

I want to add something you did not mention: the new practice of establishing relationships among children and adults with DNA testing- It is...I don't know the right words...purposefully dumb? Problematic? Mind boggling? Backwards? Discriminatory? Colossal waste of money?

My own children aren't adopted but adoption is part of mine and most people's family or friends' family histories. We should know that DNA doesn't make families. Then you add in factors of custodial vs non custodial parents, family members authorizing friends or extended family to escort their children, step parents, and all kinds of other personal issues, and I can't understand who thought this was a great idea to prove or disprove relationships and trafficking. 

 

Edited by Paige
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Local info I’m getting is changing all the time. It appears community members are pushing to help so now storage and organization is something people are trying to navigate. I know some places are collecting food, diapers, wipes and school supplies. Some are taking clothing. 

At this point I’m under the impression mothers are with children but maybe not fathers. In any case, bills will be due and parents are not getting income. The communities are trying to supplement. I know of a couple bilingual people that have offered themselves as translators at the drop off/pick up sites. I’m still trying to get info but it’s Saturday so that makes it harder. 

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I read an article about this.  Two (2) of the Chicken factories are owned by a Chinese man in California.

Many of the people had Tracking Bracelets on, because they were "in the system" for Immigration and/or other violations, so the government was able to track them and the hours they arrived in and departed from the factories.  

Most or all of those with children were released, almost immediately,  so they could take care of their children.

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24 minutes ago, Lanny said:

I read an article about this.  Two (2) of the Chicken factories are owned by a Chinese man in California.

Many of the people had Tracking Bracelets on, because they were "in the system" for Immigration and/or other violations, so the government was able to track them and the hours they arrived in and departed from the factories.  

Most or all of those with children were released, almost immediately,  so they could take care of their children.

Interesting 

I believe in many cases only mothers were released. Children have at least one parent but maybe not both. 

At any rate, they are out of work right now so things are not back to normal for these families. 

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1 hour ago, Lanny said:

I read an article about this.  Two (2) of the Chicken factories are owned by a Chinese man in California.

Many of the people had Tracking Bracelets on, because they were "in the system" for Immigration and/or other violations, so the government was able to track them and the hours they arrived in and departed from the factories.  

Most or all of those with children were released, almost immediately,  so they could take care of their children.

 

Do you have a link? An earlier link said seven facilities were raided. So, of those a third were owned by a Chinese national who acted in the exact same way as the American owners? How bizarre.

Edited by Sneezyone
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I don't know how many people released have ankle monitors. If they are wearing a monitor, I imagine they can't leave the house? It will be hard to even get items from a food pantry, etc. 

https://www.wlbt.com/2019/08/10/its-so-painful-families-affected-by-ice-raids-ask-mercy/?fbclid=IwAR1Yb6jE1KflHZjbVqlUpRmK-HxE6VW2IojKL1xa3_DM0nZnq_41bagVDSQ

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46 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I don't know how many people released have ankle monitors. If they are wearing a monitor, I imagine they can't leave the house? It will be hard to even get items from a food pantry, etc. 

https://www.wlbt.com/2019/08/10/its-so-painful-families-affected-by-ice-raids-ask-mercy/?fbclid=IwAR1Yb6jE1KflHZjbVqlUpRmK-HxE6VW2IojKL1xa3_DM0nZnq_41bagVDSQ

I don't think they're under house arrest, they're just being monitored so ICE knows where they are. Apparently some of the workers who were detained were already being monitored, and the plant supervisors hired them knowing they had monitors. Many have been living in their current communities for years, they have kids who were born in the US and attend local schools, they attend local churches, and I've read that some even own homes. So I don't know how much of a flight risk they are — most are probably desperate to stay where they are as long as possible. 

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If you have an ankle monitor, you typically have to pay to rent the monitor - is that the case here?

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I didn't even know that sometimes they had fees! 

I have never personally seen an ankle monitor on anyone around here (grocery shopping, Spanish Mass, Hispanic neighborhood)... not to say someone couldn't hide it under a pant leg. 

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10 hours ago, Paige said:

I want to add something you did not mention: the new practice of establishing relationships among children and adults with DNA testing- It is...I don't know the right words...purposefully dumb? Problematic? Mind boggling? Backwards? Discriminatory? Colossal waste of money?

My own children aren't adopted but adoption is part of mine and most people's family or friends' family histories. We should know that DNA doesn't make families. Then you add in factors of custodial vs non custodial parents, family members authorizing friends or extended family to escort their children, step parents, and all kinds of other personal issues, and I can't understand who thought this was a great idea to prove or disprove relationships and trafficking. 

 

Also, I have talked to children who came with grandparents or aunts who are taken away.  Those relationships don’t count, and those children can be put up for adoption.  With teens, they don’t usually bother but young children who are considered more adoptable are definitely sometimes removed from those family members.  

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Okay....about the ICE requirements.  I know a lot about this because again, we have been involved first hand in trying to provide for asylum seekers coming through our community.  They are supposed to check in in person with ICE every week.  The ICE office is four hours away.  These people don’t have transportation or money.  There’s no way we can even take everyone all at once because lots of people in the community are asked to come on different days.  

Miss a single check in and you’re now considered illegal.  It is virtually impossible to comply with the regulations from ICE.  

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59 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I didn't even know that sometimes they had fees! 

I have never personally seen an ankle monitor on anyone around here (grocery shopping, Spanish Mass, Hispanic neighborhood)... not to say someone couldn't hide it under a pant leg. 

Here’s one article about the fees, although not related to ICE.

https://www.propublica.org/article/digital-jail-how-electronic-monitoring-drives-defendants-into-debt

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11 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I feel a need to throw this out there.

I know that I would steal for my kids.
I would lie for my kids.
I would die for my kids.
I would kill for my kids.
All assuming, of course, I didn’t have any other viable options.  And I’m not even going to pretend I haven’t thought about under what conditions I would take them to another country to protect them. Heck, I currently pay more than $15,000/yr *just in case* someone in my family might get sick or injured.  I’ll do whatever it takes to get them what they need.

I am so glad I don’t have to do any of those illegal things today, but it’s only by dumb luck that I didn’t do much to win. Nor did they.  We hit the universe’s lottery. It doesn’t make me or them better or more worthy or special in any way. And it doesn’t make anyone else less so.

I don’t have the magic answer to logistics, but I do know it isn’t going to be found in the denial of real people’s desperation or in further traumatizing terrified children.  Their humanness doesn’t get paused while we weigh and measure their circumstances and take society’s temperature.  And ours shouldn’t be, either.

You are assuming every alleged criminal was in a life or death situation. Would you steal $150 shoes for your child? What if your child wanted a Ferrari? When does it end? You are also assuming every child found with an alleged criminal is the child of the adult. If we don’t arrest anyone who is accused of breaking the law just because they have a child with them, then child trafficking will get even worse. There have been many situations of small children being rented and even stolen to help criminals evade the law. 

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1 hour ago, Janeway said:

You are assuming every alleged criminal was in a life or death situation. Would you steal $150 shoes for your child? What if your child wanted a Ferrari? When does it end? You are also assuming every child found with an alleged criminal is the child of the adult. If we don’t arrest anyone who is accused of breaking the law just because they have a child with them, then child trafficking will get even worse. There have been many situations of small children being rented and even stolen to help criminals evade the law. 

It is entirely possible to address the civil infraction (not criminal) without keeping children in tent cities for long periods of time, while private companies and individuals profit from on the taxpayer's dime. 

I'd think more people would be very concerned that private companies are making money off of incarcerated children. 

The motive here is not safe. The motive is money. 

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2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Okay....about the ICE requirements.  I know a lot about this because again, we have been involved first hand in trying to provide for asylum seekers coming through our community.  They are supposed to check in in person with ICE every week.  The ICE office is four hours away.  These people don’t have transportation or money.  There’s no way we can even take everyone all at once because lots of people in the community are asked to come on different days.  

Miss a single check in and you’re now considered illegal.  It is virtually impossible to comply with the regulations from ICE.  

 

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that this is by design. Make it nearly impossible to comply....which allows for more people to be classified as "illegals"...department then looks "tough", makes bigger news splashes, etc. Not to mention that ICE agents are largely invisible to the public. Untouchable even. And therefore can't be held accountable.

On a related anecdotal note, an English friend of my was recently here on a legal visa. When he flew in to the U.S., he ended up spending 4 hours being interviewed by customs agents. He's not sure why. He has no criminal record and no 'flags'. He's 42 years old and has never even smoked pot or gotten a parking ticket.

It amazes me that Americans are so frickin' passive about all of this. Do they not see what is happening? A LOT OF FACELESS 'PUBLIC' AGENTS ARE BEING GIVEN UNLIMITED POWER - the power to detain, to question (for however long they want), to decide, to lock away. No one really knows when or why or how or who. It's chilling. It has *nothing* to do with keeping us safe and everything to do with expanding government control over our lives. 

Edited by Happy2BaMom
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30 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

 

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that this is by design. Make it nearly impossible to comply....which allows for more people to be classified as "illegals"...department then looks "tough", makes bigger news splashes, etc. Not to mention that ICE agents are largely invisible to the public. Untouchable even. And therefore can't be held accountable.

On a related anecdotal note, an English friend of my was recently here on a legal visa. When he flew in to the U.S., he ended up spending 4 hours being interviewed by customs agents. He's not sure why. He has no criminal record and no 'flags'. He's 42 years old and has never even smoked pot or gotten a parking ticket.

It amazes me that Americans are so frickin' passive about all of this. Do they not see what is happening? A LOT OF FACELESS 'PUBLIC' AGENTS ARE BEING GIVEN UNLIMITED POWER - the power to detain, to question (for however long they want), to decide, to lock away. No one really knows when or why or how or who. It's chilling. It has *nothing* to do with keeping us safe and everything to do with expanding government control over our lives. 

Oh, I guarantee it is by design.  

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2 hours ago, Janeway said:

You are assuming every alleged criminal was in a life or death situation. Would you steal $150 shoes for your child? What if your child wanted a Ferrari? When does it end? You are also assuming every child found with an alleged criminal is the child of the adult. If we don’t arrest anyone who is accused of breaking the law just because they have a child with them, then child trafficking will get even worse. There have been many situations of small children being rented and even stolen to help criminals evade the law. 

None of the refugees I have talked to came here because of $150 shoes or a Ferrari.  Even the ones who are economic migrants are coming because they couldn't afford necessities.  Nobody undertakes an extraordinarily difficult journey on a whim.  Now, how bad is bad enough is a question that we can debate.  But you have to remember that the United States deliberately created conditions of massive instability in the 1980's under Reagan.  We succeeded.  We funded and gave weapons to the gangs that are running rampant in Central America.  

Are there some who were doing fine and just wanted a "better life?"  Probably.  But of the hundreds I've talked to, none of them describe circumstances that I would consider remotely fine.  As the poem says, nobody leaves home unless home is a shark.  Nobody flees unless a) circumstances are really rather awful, and b) nobody survives the journey unless at least some member of their family is highly intelligent and resourceful.  Most of them know that they'll be sent back, because it's almost impossible to win an asylum case.  That's the massively depressing truth.  But they're hoping that by the time they are sent back, the people who are actively trying to kill them will have died or moved on.  

Edited by Terabith
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34 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

 

I'm willing to bet a lot of money that this is by design. Make it nearly impossible to comply....which allows for more people to be classified as "illegals"...department then looks "tough", makes bigger news splashes, etc. Not to mention that ICE agents are largely invisible to the public. Untouchable even. And therefore can't be held accountable.

On a related anecdotal note, an English friend of my was recently here on a legal visa. When he flew in to the U.S., he ended up spending 4 hours being interviewed by customs agents. He's not sure why. He has no criminal record and no 'flags'. He's 42 years old and has never even smoked pot or gotten a parking ticket.

It amazes me that Americans are so frickin' passive about all of this. Do they not see what is happening? A LOT OF FACELESS 'PUBLIC' AGENTS ARE BEING GIVEN UNLIMITED POWER - the power to detain, to question (for however long they want), to decide, to lock away. No one really knows when or why or how or who. It's chilling. It has *nothing* to do with keeping us safe and everything to do with expanding government control over our lives. 

I know people here with visas who will not leave the country for any reason because they are afraid they will not be allowed to come back in. That means no work travel, no trips home or to other countries for special events, vacations or to take care of personal business.

 

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I don't know about the people affected by these raids, but there is a huge percentage of people here illegally that came with a visa. Then the visa just expired. So they didn't make a long trek by foot necessarily. They may have flown here. I don't know what percentage of these people gave birth to children after coming here or traveled with family. Just pointing out that some families maybe weren't in danger getting here. 

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7 hours ago, Janeway said:

You are assuming every alleged criminal was in a life or death situation. Would you steal $150 shoes for your child? What if your child wanted a Ferrari? When does it end? You are also assuming every child found with an alleged criminal is the child of the adult. If we don’t arrest anyone who is accused of breaking the law just because they have a child with them, then child trafficking will get even worse. There have been many situations of small children being rented and even stolen to help criminals evade the law. 

 

Your insinuations and terminology are disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

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And 98-99% of visa holders use their visas correctly and don’t overstay.  In the most recent report (a new one is due soon), an estimated 1.33% overstayed. There’s lots more information about overstays here, including the data that shows that twice as many Canadians than Mexicans overstay. Students are more likely to overstay than other groups. https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_0807_S1_Entry-Exit-Overstay_Report.pdf

The undocumented immigrant population in the US has been declining over the last decade.  2/3rds of undocumented people in the US have been there for at least 10 years.  1 in 5 have been there less than 5 years.  80% have been there for at least 5 years.  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/us-unauthorized-immigrant-population-2017/

We’re actually doing a decent job of protecting our borders, in my opinion, and there are more pressing issues regarding immigration.

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7 hours ago, Terabith said:

None of the refugees I have talked to came here because of $150 shoes or a Ferrari.  Even the ones who are economic migrants are coming because they couldn't afford necessities.  Nobody undertakes an extraordinarily difficult journey on a whim.  Now, how bad is bad enough is a question that we can debate.  But you have to remember that the United States deliberately created conditions of massive instability in the 1980's under Reagan.  We succeeded.  We funded and gave weapons to the gangs that are running rampant in Central America.  

Are there some who were doing fine and just wanted a "better life?"  Probably.  But of the hundreds I've talked to, none of them describe circumstances that I would consider remotely fine.  As the poem says, nobody leaves home unless home is a shark.  Nobody flees unless a) circumstances are really rather awful, and b) nobody survives the journey unless at least some member of their family is highly intelligent and resourceful.  Most of them know that they'll be sent back, because it's almost impossible to win an asylum case.  That's the massively depressing truth.  But they're hoping that by the time they are sent back, the people who are actively trying to kill them will have died or moved on.  

On the bolded point: I have been thinking about this; @Amira said it as well. If this is true then claiming asylum seems like it would be “Plan B” if a person does not manage to get here undetected. Like, Plan A is to sneak into the US and “blend” into the population. In some cases, a green card can be issued because the person had made a family here and has been contributing to the economy. In the 80s, Regan granted mass amnesty to - I forget, but something like - 12 million illegal aliens. Maybe some are hoping for that, too. 

I’m just confused a little because if - just picking a wild number - 30,000 detained immigrants apply for asylum and 90% of them are not granted asylum but are deported...it seems so feckless and like such a galling waste. 

I’m not sure what my question is or if I even have one...

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9 hours ago, Janeway said:

You are assuming every alleged criminal was in a life or death situation. Would you steal $150 shoes for your child? What if your child wanted a Ferrari? When does it end? You are also assuming every child found with an alleged criminal is the child of the adult. If we don’t arrest anyone who is accused of breaking the law just because they have a child with them, then child trafficking will get even worse. There have been many situations of small children being rented and even stolen to help criminals evade the law. 

I am NOT assuming every southern border crosser was in a life or death situation. Nowhere did I even hint at that. Just like I don’t assume every born and raised American is a non-criminal, or that all American criminals were in life or death situations, or even that I think ONLY life or death situations provoke criminal acts.  But I have taken a second to give myself a mini crash course in the push and pull factors of immigration and some of the more common circumstances people are currently trying to escape.  I don’t throw babies away with bath water.

I also made no assumptions about the children.  I don’t know where you came up with these things you think are in my head. I meant the words I wrote.

To compare the primal instincts of parents to provide for children to wanting a Ferrari is asinine and spitting on the actual issues of real human beings. If my teenagers were being forced into a gang under the threat of having their family massacred if they refuse, my mind isn’t going to be on getting them Jordans.  Why would you think that of me?

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13 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Do you have a link? An earlier link said seven facilities were raided. So, of those a third were owned by a Chinese national who acted in the exact same way as the American owners? How bizarre.

 

No. It was several days ago when I read that article.   I thought there were six (6) Chicken factories involved?  You wrote 7?   Two of the Chicken factories are owned by a Chinese man who lives in California.

The article I read said that many of them had Wrist braclets for Tracking.   I don't know if they had to wear those because of Immigration violations or because of other involvement with the legal system. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Quill said:

On the bolded point: I have been thinking about this; @Amira said it as well. If this is true then claiming asylum seems like it would be “Plan B” if a person does not manage to get here undetected. Like, Plan A is to sneak into the US and “blend” into the population. In some cases, a green card can be issued because the person had made a family here and has been contributing to the economy. In the 80s, Regan granted mass amnesty to - I forget, but something like - 12 million illegal aliens. Maybe some are hoping for that, too. 

I’m just confused a little because if - just picking a wild number - 30,000 detained immigrants apply for asylum and 90% of them are not granted asylum but are deported...it seems so feckless and like such a galling waste. 

I’m not sure what my question is or if I even have one...

The 1986 immigration bill that Regan signed ended up allowing fewer than 3 million undocumented people to get green cards.  There were at least 2 million more undocumented people who didn’t get green cards, either because they didn’t qualify or didn’t know about the program. It was also suppposed to put more responsibility on employers to not hire undocumented people, but those requirements were largely ineffective (and still are today).  And Congress didn’t adequately fund stronger border enforcement for several years and then when it did, it wasn’t done effectively.  

The biggest problem was that the bill didn’t provide for the huge demand for immigrant labor in the US.  If we won’t deal with that, then we’re never going to solve this.  Either we maintain the status quo, we provide a path to citizenship for undocumented workers, or we increase legal immigration or guest workers programs or unskilled labor visas to fill the demand for lower-income labor.  Or we can change our lifestyle and expectations, but that’s not very likely.

But all of this is still separate from asylum, which is a completely different system of entry into the US.  Asylum seekers have a legal right to live and work (after 5-6 months) in the US, unlike undocumented immigrants.

I wish we would grant asylum to more people.  The fact that so many are denied in the end is galling to me too.

 

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1 hour ago, Amira said:

 

I wish we would grant asylum to more people.  The fact that so many are denied in the end is galling to me too.

 

That we know that when they have decent access to legal aid they are less likely to be denied makes it even worse. 

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I asked someone if they thought people could leave the house if they have an ankle monitor. They said yes, they believe so. One of our area churches said because of all the requests they are letting people fill out volunteer forms to be contacted later. This is supposed to be a long term struggle so all the immediate response is nice, but the help will be needed a potentially very long time (years?). I don't understand how any of this is sustainable. Say it takes a couple years for all the court process stuff and in the meantime you are not working. How exactly do you pay rent or live? I don't think the community can/will support multiple families for years. Maybe I am overlooking something. I'm not trying to be mean. Just trying to wrap my head around the issue. 

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On 8/10/2019 at 6:10 AM, Carrie12345 said:

it’s only by dumb luck that I didn’t do much to win. Nor did they.  We hit the universe’s lottery. It doesn’t make me or them better or more worthy or special in any way. And it doesn’t make anyone else less so.

I agree. Not long ago (possibly last year) a Native American Elder was on a viral video saying that "These are indigenous lands" and that there were never any borders when all of these lands belonged to them. That gave me a lot of fodder for thought. (moderators: please delete my comment if it is straying into politics because political discussion is not my intention).

Edited by mathnerd
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A more affluent parish I attend sometimes said they have been flooded with requests so they offered volunteer sheets. I filled one out and they sent me a link to a sign up page. The parish closest to the Hispanic community is operating a resource center for now. They have shifts you can sign up for via that link to help with things like organizing donations, greeting people, etc. I don't know how they are able to do this... I suspect because they try to move the items out quickly as storage is an issue. 

I just saw this upsetting story this morning: https://www.wlbt.com/2019/08/16/too-traumatized-go-home-immigrant-family-recovering-after-violent-home-invasion/?fbclid=IwAR391Yg9PD6EaGiD-g7gw8VEh165ST3C9Q0Tv-hMoiJa7NRARaS2u6gmmtg

I spoke to my main parish about the situation and I got a lot of silence. I picked up the, "not my problem" vibe from some of the parishioners. The religious sisters were more receptive, but are quite busy so do not know if they can sign up for any shifts. Their work in the area, at least one of the sisters I speak with, is focused on helping at a prison. They did ask me to give them more info as I get it, though. 

A new bilingual acquaintance of mine helped me figure out the products on the wish list. I have never seen some of those items (brand names). She said she wasn't really sure why brand names were included at all. For example, a type of noodle like ramen noodles, but not what I would pick up to buy if someone just said, "ramen noodles." She sent me images and told me what stores she's seen them. She said yes, I could get at a Spanish grocery store but it's cheaper at Kroger or Walmart. Speaking of grocery stores, I was sad to see this: https://www.wlbt.com/2019/08/16/forest-businesses-see-decline-shoppers-week-after-ice-raids/?fbclid=IwAR0eKOD2uK6Rb3UTBhm-tbAwi5SpcFClPJfvDdmfjYgkKpyEeA3OHEObKq0

I'm personally not very familiar with any Spanish grocery stores in this part of the state, except maybe a little store near where I used to tutor. I have never been inside. 

 

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The real “criminals” here are the owners of these meat processing plants. There was a time when these places provided solid middle class wages and benefits. Then the owners got greedy and recruited workers from other countries so they could pay lower wages, cut benefits, and more easily use and abuse their workers. But instead of pursuing the owners who greatly benefited financially from these practices, our government goes after the poor workers and feeds the rhetoric that we are being invaded and taken over by illegal immigrants. This is the America we have become.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/trumps-invasion-was-a-corporate-recruitment-drive/596230/

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2 hours ago, Frances said:

The real “criminals” here are the owners of these meat processing plants. There was a time when these places provided solid middle class wages and benefits. Then the owners got greedy and recruited workers from other countries so they could pay lower wages, cut benefits, and more easily use and abuse their workers. But instead of pursuing the owners who greatly benefited financially from these practices, our government goes after the poor workers and feeds the rhetoric that we are being invaded and taken over by illegal immigrants. This is the America we have become.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/trumps-invasion-was-a-corporate-recruitment-drive/596230/

Haven't read the article yet, but someone on my friend's list told me about their local area and a raid in the past. The IRS got involved for the CEO or whatever later. I don't know how soon the owners will be addressed. But if I recall correctly, the punishment was financial... I don't think they went to jail??

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Ok I just saw your link.

"No top executive of a major meatpacking company has been arrested for violating immigration, worker-safety, food-safety, antitrust, or environmental laws. The adjectives shameful and disgracefuldon’t approach the reality of what is now taking place."

Yikes. Sorry about the copy/paste formatting.

Here's the link to the story someone shared with me about another raid. https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2018/09/12/immigration-ice-raid-bean-station-slaughterhouse/1260045002/ 

"The charges carry a maximum total sentence of up to 25 years in prison, although Brantley most likely will be sentenced to far less based on federal court guidelines."

These two stories seem to conflict. It sounds like he probably did get jail time, but not sure how much. 

 

 

Edited by heartlikealion
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I read somewhere that they were pursuing charges against the owners.

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2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Ok I just saw your link.

"No top executive of a major meatpacking company has been arrested for violating immigration, worker-safety, food-safety, antitrust, or environmental laws. The adjectives shameful and disgracefuldon’t approach the reality of what is now taking place."

Yikes. Sorry about the copy/paste formatting.

Here's the link to the story someone shared with me about another raid. https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2018/09/12/immigration-ice-raid-bean-station-slaughterhouse/1260045002/ 

"The charges carry a maximum total sentence of up to 25 years in prison, although Brantley most likely will be sentenced to far less based on federal court guidelines."

These two stories seem to conflict. It sounds like he probably did get jail time, but not sure how much. 

 

 

I’m glad to see at least one owner is somewhat paying the price, although 18 months doesn’t seem like much prison time for that level of tax evasion for 20 years nor does $40k for unsafe and unsanitary working conditions seem like much of a fine. But he is still being pursued for wage theft, so there is that. Hopefully the workers will get at least a little bit of justice.

I don’t think the stories are in conflict because he owned only one plant and was primarily arrested and pursued for tax evasion and only fined for the safety stuff after the fact. Also, I don’t think he qualifies as a top executive of a major meatpacking company, more of a small time player in the grand scheme of things, Had he not paid primarily in cash in order to evade taxes, he likely wouldn’t have been on the government’s radar. Safety/sanitary concerns and wage theft generally aren’t going to be reported by people fearing deportation, hence one of the main reasons for recruiting them in the first place. Plus, you certainly aren’t going to end up with unionized workers as many of these types of plants used to have.

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I have such mixed feelings right now. On the one hand I'm like hey you need to help people in need, regardless of why they're in the mess they're in. And another part of me is a bit disgruntled. I volunteered last night. I signed up for one area but they didn't need anyone to do that so they asked me to go in the kid room. There was no one there yet. The kids slowly started trickling in from another room and as families arrived. At one point I was alone with 14 kids, various ages. I felt like it made sense for me to be there... as I've been background checked with the diocese and gone through a protection of children training and have to read monthly articles on vulnerable groups. But I never met several of the parents. They didn't come check on their kids. They were wrapped up in other things, yes, but it irritated me they weren't popping in to check on their kids. There were volunteers from out of state (well maybe their organization paid for them to be there, I know they paid for their travel). They were bilingual. So for a while one of the bilingual helpers was in the room with me and a psychologist was in the room with me and another volunteer at one point. The psychologist was American and didn't speak any Spanish so felt useless. She had volunteered for the counseling.

Just before I left someone asked me to stick around to help in the kitchen. I did briefly and I asked what the biggest needs were. I was waiting to hear an item... they said, "volunteers. Especially babysitting." I knew the lady so I didn't hold back. I groaned LOL.

This is not sustainable to me. I'm not exactly rushing to sign up when I'll just be put with the kids by default. I was there three hours.

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I think it’s great that you are helping out. It doesn’t surprise me at all that they would not be coming in periodically to check on their kids. I’m guessing they were very focused on making use of the available resources at the center and trusted that the church was taking good care of their kids while they were doing so. When I volunteered in a church nursery and taught Sunday school, I don’t recall a single parent ever coming to check on their child(ren), they just dropped them off and picked them up. And most of them did not know me.

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

I think it’s great that you are helping out. It doesn’t surprise me at all that they would not be coming in periodically to check on their kids. I’m guessing they were very focused on making use of the available resources at the center and trusted that the church was taking good care of their kids while they were doing so. When I volunteered in a church nursery and taught Sunday school, I don’t recall a single parent ever coming to check on their child(ren), they just dropped them off and picked them up. And most of them did not know me.

Right, but the nursery was probably just for use during one service... so like an hour? Not indefinitely. I left around 8pm and there was no end in sight. The attorneys left around 7pm. 

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14 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Right, but the nursery was probably just for use during one service... so like an hour? Not indefinitely. I left around 8pm and there was no end in sight. The attorneys left around 7pm. 

Usually, yes. But special events sometimes lasted two to four hours. Also, I learned during my time as an RA for a university international married family housing center that there are huge cultural variations when it comes to child care. I don’t know if that is in play here, but I’m guessing the parents are also under sever amounts of stress.

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

Usually, yes. But special events sometimes lasted two to four hours. Also, I learned during my time as an RA for a university international married family housing center that there are huge cultural variations when it comes to child care. I don’t know if that is in play here, but I’m guessing the parents are also under sever amounts of stress.

I think the lady I met at the end of the night summed it up best... she said I was not mentally prepared to deal with a room of kids LOL. I showed up to work on organizing donations. The volunteer site only had 3 hour shifts. I have a 4yr old and 11 yr old at home right now. I was with them all day. Then I went to a place where some of the kids were too young to talk at all or didn't know English. So it was not a normal situation for me. When possible I got older siblings to help or translate for me. One young boy was leaving the room every few minutes so I asked his older brother if he could ask his mom if the child could stay in the room with her since he kept running back in the room with her and the attorney. I didn't know many of the children or these particular families so I was not sure what boundaries to keep... ie. do I pick them up or not? I limited touch because it's out of my comfort zone to pick up children I don't know... mainly out of respect for the parents and in case it startles the children. But by the end of the night I was being told to pick up a child and remove him (he was fighting me, but he was probably like 2-3 yrs old) because he was messing up the Legos as the other children were trying to put them away. I'd already personally helped pick up all the Legos minutes before and by then I figured, "well you guys might be here another hour or two... I don't care if you clean them up this minute or not" but another adult told them to clean them up. 

I am sure the parents are under stress, yes. Many parents are living without their spouse who is still detained. That was not lost on me. I guess I was just feeling used. Two of the kids I recognized were kind of rude to me, too. They were never particularly nice to me, either. I was like, "do you remember me?" and they said yes. But they were cold. I was told to hand out candy to the kids that cleaned up the Legos and then the two girls wanted candy and I don't think they helped at all. Some of the kids were just greedy. Those attitudes rub me the wrong way, and then the fact that the candy didn't seem age appropriate and yet a mother wanted 3 suckers for a child that looked about one. Whatever, not my place to tell her what to give her kid. 

I think if I ever go back I will ignore the sign up sheet (3 hour slots) and just tell them I can only stay X time. I'm an introvert and I don't particularly like working with the very young. I'd be much better suited to a school age only room. 

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THEY ARE KIDS! Kids will misbehave. Kids will be greedy. Kids will be needy, clingy, angry, and everything in between. They didn't ask to go to this facility for help. They are probably just as stressed as their parents. I am sorry you had a negative experience volunteering but the expectation that these kids (or anyone else, for that matter) will fall at your feet in gratitude is, IMHO, misplaced. When I volunteer/give, I do whatever needs done without any expectation of reward, not for pats on the back. In all of my travels, children in most of the rest of the world are fawned over regardless of how they behave. In Italy, they collect candy and hugs from random adults. In Bahrain they skateboard in restaurants. My Chinese littles are heathens by US standards, jumping on the furniture and popping in and out of camera view. Most people in the world don't expect adult-level rational thought (e.g. gratitude) from 2-5 year old kids. Your post sounds EXTREMELY judgy and I can't help but wonder why you went at all. Was it just to assess the 'deserving-ness'/worth/merit of the people being served, to collect kudos, why?

Edited by Sneezyone
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What would it take for any of *us* to pick up our kids and take them to our southern border right now, knowing how they'll be treated once they arrive?  The lure of below-minimum jobs in the meat-packing plants and agricultural fields and construction crews and hotel cleaning services and back kitchens of restaurants notwithstanding: it's not like we're putting out a welcome mat.  

Home, by Warsan Shire

no one leaves home unless
home is the mouth of a shark.

you only run for the border when you see the whole city running as well.
your neighbours running faster
than you, the boy you went to school with who kissed you dizzy behind
the old tin factory is
holding a gun bigger than his body, you only leave home
when home won't let you stay.

no one would leave home unless home chased you, fire under feet,
hot blood in your belly.
it's not something you ever thought about doing, and so when you did -
you carried the anthem under your breath, waiting until the airport toilet
to tear up the passport and swallow,
each mouthful of paper making it clear that you would not be going back.
you have to understand,
no one puts their children in a boat unless the water is safer than the land.


who would choose to spend days and nights in the stomach of a truck unless the miles travelled
meant something more than journey.
no one would choose to crawl under fences,
be beaten until your shadow leaves you,
raped, then drowned, forced to the bottom of
the boat because you are darker, be sold,
starved, shot at the border like a sick animal,
be pitied, lose your name, lose your family,
make a refugee camp a home for a year or two or ten, stripped and searched, find prison everywhere

and if you survive and you are greeted on the other side with go home blacks, refugees
dirty immigrants, asylum seekers
sucking our country dry of milk,
dark, with their hands out
smell strange, savage -
look what they've done to their own countries, what will they do to ours?
the dirty looks in the street
softer than a limb torn off,
the indignity of everyday life
more tender than fourteen men who look like your father, between
your legs, insults easier to swallow than rubble, than your child's body
in pieces - for now, forget about pride your survival is more important.

i want to go home, but home is the mouth of a shark home is the barrel of the gun
and no one would leave home
unless home chased you to the shore unless home tells you to
leave what you could not behind, even if it was human.
no one leaves home until home
is a damp voice in your ear saying leave, run now, i don't know what i've become.

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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

THEY ARE KIDS! Kids will misbehave. Kids will be greedy. Kids will be needy, clingy, angry, and everything in between. They didn't ask to go to this facility for help. They are probably just as stressed as their parents. I am sorry you had a negative experience volunteering but the expectation that these kids (or anyone else, for that matter) will fall at your feet in gratitude is, IMHO, misplaced. When I volunteer/give, I do whatever needs done without any expectation of reward, not for pats on the back. In all of my travels, children in most of the rest of the world are fawned over regardless of how they behave. In Italy, they collect candy and hugs from random adults. In Bahrain they skateboard in restaurants. My Chinese littles are heathens by US standards, jumping on the furniture and popping in and out of camera view. Most people in the world don't expect adult-level rational thought (e.g. gratitude) from 2-5 year old kids. Your post sounds EXTREMELY judgy and I can't help but wonder why you went at all. Was it just to assess the 'deserving-ness'/worth/merit of the people being served, to collect kudos, why?

Yeah, you are right. I was just annoyed because I did NOT sign up for that category and that is what I got stuck with. I mean there were like 6 categories... but they didn't actually have a need for any of the categories when I showed up. They didn't need anyone to organize donations, do meal prep (not when I arrived), run errands, etc. 

I went partly to help and partly to see what information I could pass on to others as the communication is very sporadic right now. One of the people running the show is my former boss. I saw her every week last school year (homework help with the ESL students) but when I reached out to her via text a couple times I was completely ignored. I was asking immediately, "hey, is the church doing something? What do you need?" and was completely ignored. I tried to brush it off, because well, obviously she had a million things going on. When I arrived I was barely acknowledged by her and she put me in the room for kids. So you could say I guess my ego was hurt? I don't know. I've had to fight to get info. The church secretary didn't know anything except she was able to send me a list of needs. Then I had a bilingual acquaintance explain to me what those brands were and where to locate them. The affluent church sent me to a Sign Up Genius link last weekend and we don't even know the person that runs that page. The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. I don't think my former boss even knew about the sign up link... although I told her about it. The list of wanted goods was posted on facebook. I guess I was a little offended? that people that don't even go to the church knew more than I did and I worked with the Hispanic community basically EVERY WEEK last school year. 

Yes, I need to shut up. And probably not post anymore. 
 

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I'm confused. You said you felt used. But wasn't that the entire point of going? For them to use you? I get that they didn't have the job you wanted, but either way they would bee using your time/talent/etc. 

And those kids are missing their fathers, unsure if they are going to have to move to a different country, unsure how they will be fed...yeah, they probably aren't on their best behavior. Stress does that to people, especially kids. 

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10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I'm confused. You said you felt used. But wasn't that the entire point of going? For them to use you? I get that they didn't have the job you wanted, but either way they would bee using your time/talent/etc. 

And those kids are missing their fathers, unsure if they are going to have to move to a different country, unsure how they will be fed...yeah, they probably aren't on their best behavior. Stress does that to people, especially kids. 

It’s not easy to convey in words. It’s a feeling. You can help someone and feel used in one situation and do the same in another and not feel used. 

I could be holding onto old thoughts/feelings from my interactions with this parish. Like my balloon pump and tape walked off at a Hispanic event (I had them in a crate) and when I told my boss and her daughter during the event they essentially shrugged. No one cared. She also spoke down to me at my job at times. How you treat people can affect morale. They could be running this resource center for years. I hope my experiences are the exception because they definitely need local volunteers to return. Some I met were from out of state and won’t be here long. 

Yes, I care about the kids and it breaks my heart to hear that a dad or mom is in jail. But there is a part of me annoyed with the parents because I don’t know if fleeing was their only viable/best option. This feeling may pass. But can the community compensate for lack of jobs for potentially years? A community that isn’t that well off to begin with. These are my scrambled thoughts. 

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