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heartlikealion

Huge ICE raid in my state

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And now that I've read all the replies, I'll apologize in advance for not replying further (so a flounce, I guess?). The idea that hundreds of thousands of people coming here voluntarily, knowing they are breaking the law and what that entails, bringing their children with them, could leave the border facilities/country at any time they wish, and are deported if found that they are not credible asylum seekers...the idea that *any of that* compares to what happened to the Jews and other "undesirables" during Nazi rule is utterly absurd and offensive and exactly why I can't read stuff on the politics board. No one came to a concentration camp to escape their homes. People were gassed en masse and burned in ovens. They couldn't leave. They hid their children away so that their kids wouldn't be taken there. They were put to forced hard labor until they dropped dead. People were shot on sight by sadists. What's happening at our border is a crisis and needs dealing with, but it isn't *that* and our CBP and ICE agents aren't *that*. If you really think that is where these detention facilities are headed, or that the conditions aren't related to legislators denying that there even was a border crisis and refusing to fund better facilities even up until this year (2019!) it's patently ridiculous and you're in a news/punditry bubble. CBP and other organizations have been begging for help for years to make things better there. Cages and holding facilities were built years ago to address a problem no one wanted to see, no one said a word about fascism or Nazis, or even that there was a problem.  Now it's a football of the worst kind and people are saying it's like the Holocaust? On a board of people who have ostensibly read about what the Nazis actually did to people who they found undesirable? Hint: they didn't let them leave or evaluate their claims for asylum in a court, among other things.

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2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

We do have legal ways to come.  My area has many many people here on an H2B visa.  I haven't seen anyone yet reporting on why so many employers are hiring people without the visa, or why the undocumented workers who have been here longer aren't able to acquire one.  

 

 

H2B visas are specifically not for agricultural jobs. For more info: https://www.h1base.com/content/h2bvisa

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1 minute ago, QueenCat said:

 

H2B visas are specifically not for agricultural jobs. For more info: https://www.h1base.com/content/h2bvisa

There’s a specific kind of visa program for agricultural workers. I can’t remember the name off hand. The farmers contract the workers mostly from Central America provide living arrangements and pay a wage. There was an interesting piece on NPR a few months back about the program. Most of the workers were here just for the money. They interviewed a farmer from a nearby county who would prefer to higher local workers so they would not have to provide housing and pay fees to acquire the workers. They were paying more than the average wage for the area (a poor area in the south with high unemployment) and could not get local workers to take the jobs stick with it and do a good job. 

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14 minutes ago, hshibley said:

There’s a specific kind of visa program for agricultural workers. I can’t remember the name off hand. The farmers contract the workers mostly from Central America provide living arrangements and pay a wage. There was an interesting piece on NPR a few months back about the program. Most of the workers were here just for the money. They interviewed a farmer from a nearby county who would prefer to higher local workers so they would not have to provide housing and pay fees to acquire the workers. They were paying more than the average wage for the area (a poor area in the south with high unemployment) and could not get local workers to take the jobs stick with it and do a good job. 

H-2A visa.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-2A_visa

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26 minutes ago, EmseB said:

And now that I've read all the replies, I'll apologize in advance for not replying further (so a flounce, I guess?). The idea that hundreds of thousands of people coming here voluntarily, knowing they are breaking the law and what that entails, bringing their children with them, could leave the border facilities/country at any time they wish, and are deported if found that they are not credible asylum seekers...the idea that *any of that* compares to what happened to the Jews and other "undesirables" during Nazi rule is utterly absurd and offensive and exactly why I can't read stuff on the politics board. No one came to a concentration camp to escape their homes. People were gassed en masse and burned in ovens. They couldn't leave. They hid their children away so that their kids wouldn't be taken there. They were put to forced hard labor until they dropped dead. People were shot on sight by sadists. What's happening at our border is a crisis and needs dealing with, but it isn't *that* and our CBP and ICE agents aren't *that*. If you really think that is where these detention facilities are headed, or that the conditions aren't related to legislators denying that there even was a border crisis and refusing to fund better facilities even up until this year (2019!) it's patently ridiculous and you're in a news/punditry bubble. CBP and other organizations have been begging for help for years to make things better there. Cages and holding facilities were built years ago to address a problem no one wanted to see, no one said a word about fascism or Nazis, or even that there was a problem.  Now it's a football of the worst kind and people are saying it's like the Holocaust? On a board of people who have ostensibly read about what the Nazis actually did to people who they found undesirable? Hint: they didn't let them leave or evaluate their claims for asylum in a court, among other things.

No.  You are mixing concentration camps with extermination camps.  Your whole premise is faulty because you are starting with the end and saying it's not comparable to the beginning.

Look at the beginning of the war, starting around 1929 or so when the stock market crashed and sent global shockwaves.  Start there and look at the slow, steady build up of resentment of a group of people, apathy at their conditions, and looking away at the more atrocious human rights violations.  Look at how prominent Jewish organizations are saying this IS how it starts.

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8 minutes ago, EmseB said:

And now that I've read all the replies, I'll apologize in advance for not replying further (so a flounce, I guess?). The idea that hundreds of thousands of people coming here voluntarily, knowing they are breaking the law and what that entails, bringing their children with them, could leave the border facilities/country at any time they wish, and are deported if found that they are not credible asylum seekers...the idea that *any of that* compares to what happened to the Jews and other "undesirables" during Nazi rule is utterly absurd and offensive and exactly why I can't read stuff on the politics board. No one came to a concentration camp to escape their homes. People were gassed en masse and burned in ovens. They couldn't leave. They hid their children away so that their kids wouldn't be taken there. They were put to forced hard labor until they dropped dead. People were shot on sight by sadists. What's happening at our border is a crisis and needs dealing with, but it isn't *that* and our CBP and ICE agents aren't *that*. If you really think that is where these detention facilities are headed, or that the conditions aren't related to legislators denying that there even was a border crisis and refusing to fund better facilities even up until this year (2019!) it's patently ridiculous and you're in a news/punditry bubble. CBP and other organizations have been begging for help for years to make things better there. Cages and holding facilities were built years ago to address a problem no one wanted to see, no one said a word about fascism or Nazis, or even that there was a problem.  Now it's a football of the worst kind and people are saying it's like the Holocaust? On a board of people who have ostensibly read about what the Nazis actually did to people who they found undesirable? Hint: they didn't let them leave or evaluate their claims for asylum in a court, among other things.

You are wrong.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentration-camps-southern-border-migrant-detention-facilities-trump/

https://www.jta.org/2018/06/20/politics/detention-facilities-concentration-camps-debate-names-invokes-nazis

https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/editorial-dont-look-away-concentration-camps-border

Note that by ICE's own admission, children are being held for days, weeks, even months, without trial and without legal representation, by the administration's own admission, the policy is being used to frighten people away from seeking asylum or refugee status.  This is the very definition of a concentration camp. We had them for Japanese Americans during WWII, and the excuse was national security, and blah blah blah. Were they death camps? No. Did people die in them because of inhumane treatment and human rights violations? Yes. One does not have to be cyanide poisoning masses of people and cremating their remains to make it a concentration camp. Were they held indefinitely without legal representation and a speedy hearing? Oh for dang certain. Were they separated from their children? In many cases they were. Were the children provided for basic needs? No they were not. Thus the high disease rate among children.

Is it acceptable because other nations have done it? I've heard that before. I consider it so morally repugnant as to make me physically nauseated.

It isn't defensible. The end. Full stop. This behavior, these kinds of policies, always end up in nothing but hideous, human tragedy. 10% of Japanese Americans interred alone died from tuberculosis, that doesn't account for all the others who died from their internment. Just tuberculosis.

 

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35 minutes ago, EmseB said:

And now that I've read all the replies, I'll apologize in advance for not replying further (so a flounce, I guess?). The idea that hundreds of thousands of people coming here voluntarily, knowing they are breaking the law and what that entails, bringing their children with them, could leave the border facilities/country at any time they wish, and are deported if found that they are not credible asylum seekers...the idea that *any of that* compares to what happened to the Jews and other "undesirables" during Nazi rule is utterly absurd and offensive and exactly why I can't read stuff on the politics board. No one came to a concentration camp to escape their homes. People were gassed en masse and burned in ovens. They couldn't leave. They hid their children away so that their kids wouldn't be taken there. They were put to forced hard labor until they dropped dead. People were shot on sight by sadists. What's happening at our border is a crisis and needs dealing with, but it isn't *that* and our CBP and ICE agents aren't *that*. If you really think that is where these detention facilities are headed, or that the conditions aren't related to legislators denying that there even was a border crisis and refusing to fund better facilities even up until this year (2019!) it's patently ridiculous and you're in a news/punditry bubble. CBP and other organizations have been begging for help for years to make things better there. Cages and holding facilities were built years ago to address a problem no one wanted to see, no one said a word about fascism or Nazis, or even that there was a problem.  Now it's a football of the worst kind and people are saying it's like the Holocaust? On a board of people who have ostensibly read about what the Nazis actually did to people who they found undesirable? Hint: they didn't let them leave or evaluate their claims for asylum in a court, among other things.

I don't mean to be rude, but you either don't know nearly as much about history as you believe you do, or you are pretending you don't. You don't start at the end of the story. Back up a few years and start at the beginning.

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1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

I don't mean to be rude, but you either don't know nearly as much about history as you believe you do, or you are pretending you don't. You don't start at the end of the story. Back up a few years and start at the beginning.

Hear hear!

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43 minutes ago, EmseB said:

And now that I've read all the replies, I'll apologize in advance for not replying further (so a flounce, I guess?). The idea that hundreds of thousands of people coming here voluntarily, knowing they are breaking the law and what that entails, bringing their children with them, could leave the border facilities/country at any time they wish, and are deported if found that they are not credible asylum seekers...the idea that *any of that* compares to what happened to the Jews and other "undesirables" during Nazi rule is utterly absurd and offensive and exactly why I can't read stuff on the politics board. No one came to a concentration camp to escape their homes. People were gassed en masse and burned in ovens. They couldn't leave. They hid their children away so that their kids wouldn't be taken there. They were put to forced hard labor until they dropped dead. People were shot on sight by sadists. What's happening at our border is a crisis and needs dealing with, but it isn't *that* and our CBP and ICE agents aren't *that*. If you really think that is where these detention facilities are headed, or that the conditions aren't related to legislators denying that there even was a border crisis and refusing to fund better facilities even up until this year (2019!) it's patently ridiculous and you're in a news/punditry bubble. CBP and other organizations have been begging for help for years to make things better there. Cages and holding facilities were built years ago to address a problem no one wanted to see, no one said a word about fascism or Nazis, or even that there was a problem.  Now it's a football of the worst kind and people are saying it's like the Holocaust? On a board of people who have ostensibly read about what the Nazis actually did to people who they found undesirable? Hint: they didn't let them leave or evaluate their claims for asylum in a court, among other things.

This is why you're the only one responding on one side. Everyone who disagrees is the same as a Nazi, heartless, and hates children. Trust me that plenty of people agree with you but are flat out tired of the hyperbole and name calling. Apparently politics is only allowed on this board if it espouses the view if one side. 

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3 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

This is why you're the only one responding on one side. Everyone who disagrees is the same as a Nazi, heartless, and hates children. Trust me that plenty of people agree with you but are flat out tired of the hyperbole and name calling. Apparently politics is only allowed on this board if it espouses the view if one side. 

This isn't politics. This is a humanitarian issue. Don't downgrade it to a political issue when it is so much more far reaching than that.

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2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

This isn't politics. This is a humanitarian issue. Don't downgrade it to a political issue when it is so much more far reaching than that.

 

100% Correct. 

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I am desperately trying to understand the lack of compassion from people who claim to be Christians. Not that I think this is a Christian issue; it's a human issue that many good people do care about, regardless of their religious beliefs. 

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When you detain someone you become responsible for their well being like it or not. Period. 

Another historical example:

The Japanese weren't the only ones held in internment camps during WW2. Aleuts died in internment camps. They were forced to leave their homes with one suitcase despite being ready and willing to evacuate on their own. They were dropped off in inhospitable areas without supplies and none of their personal resources, tools etc. 

 

Here is a quote from the linked article, "Some 118 Aleuts perished from lack of warmth, food, and medical care. Smaller Aleut villages lost as much as a quarter of their pre-internment population. The Aleut deaths were avoidable. Medical supplies that had been allocated for the internment camps were instead taken by the military. The 700 German prisoners all returned home after the war without a single one dying during their imprisonment."

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/02/21/516277507/the-other-wwii-american-internment-atrocity

 

The numbers look different because they were a small population but they died of neglect not outright murder. A quarter of some villiages poulations?! The results were still suffering, misery and death and slavery for seal hunting at one point.  Neglect is evil too. If they had just been responsible for themselves and allowed to make their own way it would be a different story. But they were taken by force and put into camps. Those deaths are the responsability of the American gov't. Period.

 

Edited to add.

The reason I bring this up is that callousness towards others can mean death. You don't have to be some sadist to cause suffering and death. You don't have to want to enjoy torturing them to end up torturing them anyway through sheer neglect. 

We should care about the plight of others and do something when we can and as the wealthiest nation on earth at this time, we can. 

 

Edited by frogger
Forgot to add link
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1 hour ago, QueenCat said:

I am desperately trying to understand the lack of compassion from people who claim to be Christians. Not that I think this is a Christian issue; it's a human issue that many good people do care about, regardless of their religious beliefs. 

As a Christian, I have been disturbed by this as well and have given a lot of thought to this in this situation  as well as some others in which I find myself in. My thought is this:  There is a great lack of not just Biblical literacy, but Biblical fluency among US Christians. Literacy encompasses being able to read something, whereas fluency is much more all-encompassing. I haven’t seen the phrase “Biblical fluency” used anywhere, I think I’m making it up. But, fluency is what I am coming up with. A lot of people, both Christians and non-Christians, are Biblically literate. Literate people know what the Bible says, they can read it and understand it to a degree. Fluency is much deeper than that. People that are Biblically fluent not only read  & understand it, but they see the over arching themes and also, maybe most importantly, grasp how to apply the teaching in the Bible to everyday life - they can apply it in any situation. They allow it to mold their heart and minds, which in turn influences attitudes and actions. They can look at any situation and know how the truth of the Bible applies to it and they behave accordingly. 

Thinking about literacy vs. fluency when it comes to language - I was once literate in French. I could read it (still can to some degree, but not nearly like I used to be able to), speak it and understand others who were speaking it. But, I was never fluent. I never thought in French. I never had trouble remembering an English word for something because the French word made more sense to me than the English. I could never conduct business in French at a normal pace because I had to translate a lot in my head. I had to ask people who are fluent in French to slow down when they were speaking. I was literate, not fluent. 

If anyone wants an example from the teaching of the Bible of literacy vs. fluency, let me know & I can write it up. I don’t want to get assume anyone cares that much about the difference between Biblical literacy and Biblical fluency, though. After all, it’s a term I think I made up, ya know? 

ETA: I just did a quick google search. Biblical fluency is a real thing. I’m off to read more!  I love the internet most days! 

Edited by TechWife
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1 hour ago, QueenCat said:

I am desperately trying to understand the lack of compassion from people who claim to be Christians. Not that I think this is a Christian issue; it's a human issue that many good people do care about, regardless of their religious beliefs. 

Because you’re missing that thousands of caring, moral people are looking at causes and trying to figure out what is enabling or worsening the situation at the border and addressing that, instead of just trying to scramble and deal after the situation has already devolved.  

Caring the most about something doesn’t equal moral right or good or any sort of efficacy.  There remains the actual logistics to manage, including fixing broken pieces of systems and governments.  At some point a refusal to deal with underlying brokenness becomes untenable.  

Good Christians and, moreover, different but equally caring PEOPLE disagree on how to handle this.  But any solution that doesn’t fix the disorder and sheer unmanageable volume isn’t a real solution.  Providing meals and beds and transport is needful, but that is not the end of it.  

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If people think this is like what Hitler did to the Jews, then why wouldn't they want these people to stop coming, for their own good?

I strongly believe that for the economic migrants (which is most of them), they are better off staying in their home country and trying to make a life there or initiating the legal process and waiting it out.

We clearly need to help the genuine asylum / refugee migrants, but that would be a lot more feasible if there weren't hundreds of thousands of economic migrants coming without permission.

If you all think that makes me a heathen, then whatever.  I am going back into quiet mode.  I just couldn't leave those nazi comments without a response.

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6 minutes ago, TechWife said:

As a Christian, I have been disturbed by this as well and have given a lot of thought to this in this situation  as well as some others in which I find myself in. My thought is this:  There is a great lack of not just Biblical literacy, but Biblical fluency among US Christians. Literacy encompasses being able to read something, whereas fluency is much more all-encompassing. I haven’t seen the phrase “Biblical fluency” used anywhere, I think I’m making it up. But, fluency is what I am coming up with. A lot of people, both Christians and non-Christians, are Biblically literate. Literate people know what the Bible says, they can read it and understand it to a degree. Fluency is much deeper than that. People that are Biblically fluent not only read  & understand it, but they see the over arching themes and also, maybe most importantly, grasp how to apply the teaching in the Bible to everyday life - they can apply it in any situation. They allow it to mold their heart and minds, which in turn influences attitudes and actions. They can look at any situation and know how the truth of the Bible applies to it and they behave accordingly. 

Thinking about literacy vs. fluency when it comes to language - I was once literate in French. I could read it (still can to some degree, but not nearly like I used to be able to), speak it and understand others who were speaking it. But, I was never fluent. I never thought in French. I never had trouble remembering an English word for something because the French word made more sense to me than the English. I could never conduct business in French at a normal pace because I had to translate a lot in my head. I had to ask people who are fluent in French to slow down when they were speaking. I was literate, not fluent. 

If anyone wants an example from the teaching of the Bible of literacy vs. fluency, let me know & I can write it up. I don’t want to get assume anyone cares that much about the difference between Biblical literacy and Biblical fluency, though. After all, it’s a term I think I made up, ya know? 


I would love to hear more about Biblical literacy vs. fluency.  I think it's a fascinating idea.  However, I don't know that one has to be Biblically fluent to figure out that Jesus would not put children in cages, and that therefore Christians (and everyone else) should be advocating for other solutions.  

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7 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Because you’re missing that thousands of caring, moral people are looking at causes and trying to figure out what is enabling or worsening the situation at the border and addressing that, instead of just trying to scramble and deal after the situation has already devolved.  

Caring the most about something doesn’t equal moral right or good or any sort of efficacy.  There remains the actual logistics to manage, including fixing broken pieces of systems and governments.  At some point a refusal to deal with underlying brokenness becomes untenable.  

Good Christians and, moreover, different but equally caring PEOPLE disagree on how to handle this.  But any solution that doesn’t fix the disorder and sheer unmanageable volume isn’t a real solution.  Providing meals and beds and transport is needful, but that is not the end of it.  

 

I'm not missing anything. I'm really not referring to people with different ideas about what to do or what needs to be done. I was referring to the one or two who had very mean-spirited, callous attitudes about fellow human beings. 

Edited by QueenCat
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1 minute ago, SKL said:

If people think this is like what Hitler did to the Jews, then why wouldn't they want these people to stop coming, for their own good?

I strongly believe that for the economic migrants (which is most of them), they are better off staying in their home country and trying to make a life there or initiating the legal process and waiting it out.

We clearly need to help the genuine asylum / refugee migrants, but that would be a lot more feasible if there weren't hundreds of thousands of economic migrants coming without permission.

If you all think that makes me a heathen, then whatever.  I am going back into quiet mode.  I just couldn't leave those nazi comments without a response.

 

That wouldn’t address the fact that there are people who still think this type of behavior is acceptable. It doesn’t address the root cause of the problem. People who think that this is okay will just turn their attention elsewhere. Also, immigration is part of the DNA of our country. To excise it changes the very nature of our nation, so really, stopping immigration is not a goal that is consistent with our character. Instead, it plays into the hands of those who think the way we treat immigrants is acceptable- as the stated goal of many of these policies and rules has been to get people to stop coming here. That goal isn’t consistent with our nation’s experience. 

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8 minutes ago, SKL said:

If people think this is like what Hitler did to the Jews, then why wouldn't they want these people to stop coming, for their own good?

I strongly believe that for the economic migrants (which is most of them), they are better off staying in their home country and trying to make a life there or initiating the legal process and waiting it out.

We clearly need to help the genuine asylum / refugee migrants, but that would be a lot more feasible if there weren't hundreds of thousands of economic migrants coming without permission.

If you all think that makes me a heathen, then whatever.  I am going back into quiet mode.  I just couldn't leave those nazi comments without a response.

Do you think that A. the bulk of them have extensive history education B. tv's, internet, etc. and access to news. C. and fluency in English enough to understand what they hear, if they hear it.

It isn't as though there is mass advertising on billboards in their dialects, and assuming literacy, flashing "America is going to do x,y,z to you when you get there". I am always a little shocked that the assumption is that the most poverty stricken and oppressed humans outside of the western world have access to CNN in their primary language. 

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13 minutes ago, SKL said:

If people think this is like what Hitler did to the Jews, then why wouldn't they want these people to stop coming, for their own good?

I strongly believe that for the economic migrants (which is most of them), they are better off staying in their home country and trying to make a life there or initiating the legal process and waiting it out.

We clearly need to help the genuine asylum / refugee migrants, but that would be a lot more feasible if there weren't hundreds of thousands of economic migrants coming without permission.

If you all think that makes me a heathen, then whatever.  I am going back into quiet mode.  I just couldn't leave those nazi comments without a response.


Some of us hold out hope that American ideals will prevail, and that eventually we can build a society in which we put common good first and personal good second.  I don't see that right now, but I hold out hope.  We still have elected officials. If there comes a point where we no longer have elected officials and have a dictatorship, then my views will change.

FWIW, our whole immigration system is broken.  It can take 10 years for a green card. People don't always have that long.  And asylum seekers will always come without permission.  It's part of the deal of asylum.  You don't ask permission first.  You flee.

I don't think you're a heathen.  I think that a lot of this information is available to the public for anyone who wants to research and make sure their stance is based on correct information.

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If I read every response, my head will explode. But from just skimming...

It hurts when a few people don't seem to understand that the violence in some of the communities that people are fleeing is extreme. No, it's not literally the 1930's in Germany. No metaphor will ever be perfect. But they know that policies here have changed. They know that people are not getting due process. They're risking it anyway because their situations at home are life-threatening. That's just factual. Is every single person literally going to die right away if deported? No. But that's not the same thing as recognizing that they're under extreme threat. If you look at that and say, I know, I get it, but we have problems here too and we can't absorb these folks. Well, okay. But acknowledge the truth that their lives are endangered. People are being raped, killed, kidnapped... it's scary.

Also, if you think that this country should not allow more migrants in, regardless of circumstances, then okay. I can respect that position, even though I dramatically disagree. But the point that we're at now is that they're being held in inhumane condition by the US government without a clear, speedy legal process. There are companies making a lot of money off housing folks. Yet the conditions are horrific in some of these places. It's not even disputed by anyone who has been there. There's clear photographic evidence. It's not a dispute that the conditions of these camps are unsafe. That's a totally separate issue from whether or not there should be more migrants. They're here. They've presented. It's international and US law that we process those applications and deportations. If you believe that they should be deported, then okay. But that's not a reason to believe they deserve to be abused by the US government and government contractors. We should be better than this. This should never be okay with us in our own nation.

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45 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:


I would love to hear more about Biblical literacy vs. fluency.  I think it's a fascinating idea.  However, I don't know that one has to be Biblically fluent to figure out that Jesus would not put children in cages, and that therefore Christians (and everyone else) should be advocating for other solutions.  

 

 Should we start a separate thread on Biblical literacy vs. fluency?

 

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1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

I don't think you're a heathen.  I think that a lot of this information is available to the public for anyone who wants to research and make sure their stance is based on correct information.

This is one thing I have been mulling over as I have lurked and read along. A couple of times, I have almost posted, marveling at the depth of knowledge some posters have on this subject. I confess, I don’t know half of what’s going on, and part of the reason I feel that is, is I no longer feel confident at any info I get. There’s so much screaming, “You’re fake news!” “no, you’re fake news!” It makes my head spin. 

One source will say, for instance, asylum-seekers must apply for asylum in the first country they reach. But another source says, no, not if that country is not deemed safe, which is true for anyone traveling from Central America. Even in this thread I see evidence of this: one poster thinks XYZ is required and other posters say, no, that is incorrect. How does one know she is getting the correct, not fake-news information

For example, back maybe a year ago? Or so? Our administration was using the terms “Crisis at the Border.” This choice of terminology was mocked by those opposed to the current administration (including me; I cringed everytime I heard that phrasing because I felt it was propogandist rhetoric). But then they put babies in cages and what do we call that? (Rightly...) A Crisis. It is a crisis if there are too many people to process in a decent manner. And now we all agree it’s a crisis, if not for the same reasons it was originally labeled a crisis by the govt. 

So that’s my dilemma. I want to be knowledgeable but I distrust the information and can find two statements that seem reliable but say the exact opposite things. And I don’t have ten hours a day to parse theough all the rhetoric in the media. I haven’t even had enough time to comprehensively read this thread, though I think this thread is a good start. 

P.S. Part of the problem for me is that I spent a lot of years exclusively listening to a certain news station that I later rejected, so I feel like I missed a lot of info that didn’t fit with the agenda of that news outlet. 

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2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Because you’re missing that thousands of caring, moral people are looking at causes and trying to figure out what is enabling or worsening the situation at the border and addressing that, instead of just trying to scramble and deal after the situation has already devolved.  

Caring the most about something doesn’t equal moral right or good or any sort of efficacy.  There remains the actual logistics to manage, including fixing broken pieces of systems and governments.  At some point a refusal to deal with underlying brokenness becomes untenable.  

Good Christians and, moreover, different but equally caring PEOPLE disagree on how to handle this.  But any solution that doesn’t fix the disorder and sheer unmanageable volume isn’t a real solution.  Providing meals and beds and transport is needful, but that is not the end of it.  

Different ideas about how to handle a problem are one thing.

Embracing an attitude of fear and condemnation and hatred towards entire groups of humans is an entirely different matter, and one that a great many people who call themselves Christian have allowed themselves to adopt. 

There is nothing Christian in such an attitude. Nor is there anything Christian in excusing those whose rhetoric fuels such an attitude.

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

If people think this is like what Hitler did to the Jews, then why wouldn't they want these people to stop coming, for their own good?

I strongly believe that for the economic migrants (which is most of them), they are better off staying in their home country and trying to make a life there or initiating the legal process and waiting it out.

We clearly need to help the genuine asylum / refugee migrants, but that would be a lot more feasible if there weren't hundreds of thousands of economic migrants coming without permission.

If you all think that makes me a heathen, then whatever.  I am going back into quiet mode.  I just couldn't leave those nazi comments without a response.


Even if I agreed that most of these people are economic migrants, and that they'd be better off if they didn't come, I don't believe in putting children in cages and jeopardizing their lives as a way to change their parents' behavior.  

I'm also unclear what legal process you expect people to wait out?  There is not a process for legal immigration, other than the asylum process, that is accessible to most of these people.  

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2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Caring the most about something doesn’t equal moral right or good or any sort of efficacy.  There remains the actual logistics to manage, including fixing broken pieces of systems and governments.  At some point a refusal to deal with underlying brokenness becomes untenable.  

Good Christians and, moreover, different but equally caring PEOPLE disagree on how to handle this.  But any solution that doesn’t fix the disorder and sheer unmanageable volume isn’t a real solution.  Providing meals and beds and transport is needful, but that is not the end of it.  

I agree with most of this.

This goes back to the point I tried to make earlier: the systems are at fault. I'd include not just the systems for processing immigrants at the border, but our agricultural system, and our criminal justice system (i.e., the factory owners and employers who escape punishment), and probably others. I just don't see the sense in trying to solve the problem-- which I agree exists-- at the level of the individual immigrants, instead of at the level of the faulty systems. The harm that is causing to people right this moment is highly disproportionate to the risk they pose to our society even if they enter illegally.

We do, in fact, need the workers. We just need a legal framework for their presence, and a mechanism to ensure that they aren't abused, and a way to sort out the relatively few who actually are not desirable immigrants.

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On 8/8/2019 at 5:16 PM, QueenCat said:

 

It's hard for me to grasp too.

I think that there are millions of ignorant people who still think they have a chance of becoming rich enough to screw the rest. Plus, stupid people are easy to con. 

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46 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

One source will say, for instance, asylum-seekers must apply for asylum in the first country they reach. But another source says, no, not if that country is not deemed safe, which is true for anyone traveling from Central America. Even in this thread I see evidence of this: one poster thinks XYZ is required and other posters say, no, that is incorrect. How does one know she is getting the correct, not fake-news information?

I think the best way is to actually look at the original sources as much as possible.  I read the asylum law last year or so, the entire pdf, because I wanted to understand it better and understand what was being said in the media.

If poring through original sources isn't available, then finding non-biased sites that quote them directly is next best.  From there, it's a slope. 

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18 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I think the best way is to actually look at the original sources as much as possible.  I read the asylum law last year or so, the entire pdf, because I wanted to understand it better and understand what was being said in the media.

If poring through original sources isn't available, then finding non-biased sites that quote them directly is next best.  From there, it's a slope. 

Where did you find the asylum law? 

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1 hour ago, Innisfree said:

The harm that is causing to people right this moment is highly disproportionate to the risk they pose to our society even if they enter illegally

I just wanted to see it again. 

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8 hours ago, EmseB said:

...the idea that *any of that* compares to what happened to the Jews and other "undesirables" during Nazi rule is utterly absurd and offensive and exactly why I can't read stuff on the politics board. ...  If you really think that is where these detention facilities are headed, or that the conditions aren't related to legislators denying that there even was a border crisis and refusing to fund better facilities even up until this year (2019!) it's patently ridiculous and you're in a news/punditry bubble. 

 

Terrible things are happening outside. At any time of night and day, poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. They’re allowed to take only a knapsack and a little cash with them, and even then, they’re robbed of these possessions on the way. Families are torn apart; men, women, and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared.

— Anne Frank, January 13, 1943

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9 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Good to know.  Then we should have policies that are consistent. So if you ever get a speeding ticket, your children should be seized, placed in cages, given little food or water and no hygiene products, and you should go to detention. At least then this country would be consistent in its application of how it treats criminals. 

Well, if I continued to speed and refused to stop, yes, I should have my children taken away while I am sent to jail and at least processed. But there has been no evidence of the children in the detention centers being mistreated. And when someone is breaking the law, they should be stopped. And when someone is arrested for a misdemeanor, which they only get arrested on a class B or A, then yes, their children are removed from them. Every single person in the US who is arrested while they have children with them have the children taken from them and placed elsewhere while the legal issues are worked out. 

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11 hours ago, HeighHo said:

We do have legal ways to come.  My area has many many people here on an H2B visa. 

I think would help overall would be a change in school funding...the non-visa people do not want their children in study hall while their tax dollars are paying for ESL, and they sure don't want their child to be in remedial when they need advanced/honors or vo-tech. 

I really thought that this was one thread you couldn't turn into a "advanced kids are sitting in study hall" complaint, but I was wrong. Only surprised nothing was mentioned of tax breaks for seniors. 

Either way, no, MOST of the people coming have no way to do so. You can't immigrate to the US from any of these countries legally unless you have a special skill. http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/whydonttheycomeherelegally.cfm

10 hours ago, EmseB said:

Amira, how/where do they pass the credible fear test if they haven't entered at a POE? How long does it take to investigate if the claim is credible or not? What do we do in the meantime while they are investigating the test?

Regarding number three, how do we protect the kids while not separating all of them, especially if we're talking a detention or processing facility with other adults as well? You say your solution isn't perfect, but I'm missing or misreading what solution you're proposing.

 

We had a great system called alternatives to detention, that involved placing families into housing and providing them with legal assistance regarding their asylum claim. It was a fraction of the cost of detention and had excellent results, in that almost 100 percent showed up to their hearings. However, with all that access to legal aid, they actually managed to prove their cases and the government decided too many were actually being granted asylum so they stopped the program for the most part and went back to detaining people. In a cell they couldn't do a very good job of documenting their case or coordinating with legal help and so they were much less likely to prove their case and be deported. A win for the private companies running the detention centers and a win for those who don't want immigrants in the country. 

yay america.

 

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4 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Well, if I continued to speed and refused to stop, yes, I should have my children taken away while I am sent to jail and at least processed. But there has been no evidence of the children in the detention centers being mistreated. And when someone is breaking the law, they should be stopped. And when someone is arrested for a misdemeanor, which they only get arrested on a class B or A, then yes, their children are removed from them. Every single person in the US who is arrested while they have children with them have the children taken from them and placed elsewhere while the legal issues are worked out. 

Really? No evidence of mistreatment????

https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2019/06/25/texas-border-control-facilities-migrant-children

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/07/border-patrols-oversight-sick-migrant-children/593224/

https://www.texasobserver.org/doctor-details-insane-demoralizing-conditions-for-kids-at-texas-migrant-detention-center/

https://www.thenation.com/article/senator-jeff-merkley-saw-immigrant-detention-center-children/

https://www.newsweek.com/senator-warns-larges-child-prison-american-history-detained-migrants-1447921

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/before-debate-democrats-visit-childrens-migrant-shelter-amid-fresh-fury-over-conditions/2019/06/26/08ed7de4-9815-11e9-8d0a-5edd7e2025b1_story.html

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/elections/2019/07/16/migrant-detention-centers-described-2019-us-government-accounts/1694638001/

https://www.pbs.org/video/harsh-detention-1561160200/

https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/inside-border-detention-centers-thousands-of-children-are-being-held-1259433027703

This is only a small number of eye witness accounts and journalist reports.

 

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6 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Well, if I continued to speed and refused to stop, yes, I should have my children taken away while I am sent to jail and at least processed. But there has been no evidence of the children in the detention centers being mistreated. And when someone is breaking the law, they should be stopped. And when someone is arrested for a misdemeanor, which they only get arrested on a class B or A, then yes, their children are removed from them. Every single person in the US who is arrested while they have children with them have the children taken from them and placed elsewhere while the legal issues are worked out. 

There is OVERWHELMING evidence, from multiple sources, of children are being sexually assaulted, denied basic hygiene, denied medical treatment, denied adequate food, and being forced to sleep on cold concrete floors with no mats or blankets. The fact that certain "news" sources that function as vehicles of state propaganda aren't talking about this doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The absolute willful refusal to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence here is just... well "mind-boggling" is the only word I can use on this forum without getting banned. 

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14 minutes ago, Janeway said:

But there has been no evidence of the children in the detention centers being mistreated. 

This is from a report by the government's own Department of Homeland Security! Do you think they are lying???

"Earlier reports from investigators for the Department of Homeland Security's Office of the Inspector General from the El Paso and Rio Grande Valley sectors in Texas detailed horrific conditions for children and other migrants held in overcrowded border stations where they were not given showers, a clean change of clothes or the space to sleep. The reports from the Yuma CBP sector describe similar unsanitary and crowded conditions but go further by alleging abuse and other misconduct by CBP officers."

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"A 15-year-old girl from Honduras described a large, bearded officer putting his hands inside her bra, pulling down her underwear and groping her as part of what was meant to be a routine pat-down in front of other immigrants and officers.

The girl said "she felt embarrassed as the officer was speaking in English to other officers and laughing" during the entire process, according to a report of her account"

 

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38 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Well, if I continued to speed and refused to stop, yes, I should have my children taken away while I am sent to jail and at least processed. But there has been no evidence of the children in the detention centers being mistreated. And when someone is breaking the law, they should be stopped. And when someone is arrested for a misdemeanor, which they only get arrested on a class B or A, then yes, their children are removed from them. Every single person in the US who is arrested while they have children with them have the children taken from them and placed elsewhere while the legal issues are worked out. 

You know not everyone who is arrested actually sits in jail for an extended period of time, right? Pretty much just poor people. People with money get out on bail. Or never serve time because it isn't that kind of crime. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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I have unfortunately had to mostly avoid reading about the horrors being perpetrated on immigrants, especially children.

I am devastated by the callousness and antagonism so many of my fellow citizens express--even people who I know to be kind and thoughtful most of the time. We fall too easily into the trap of seeing far off people or people who are different from us in some way as less human, less worthy of compassion, more frightening (small children getting lumped into an amorphous mass of "invaders") than what they are--other humans with hopes and worries and needs very much like ours.

Maybe, if I hadn't spent significant portions of my own childhood in Latin America, I would not so easily identify with them. Maybe I would be able to turn them into cardboard caricatures of human beings worthy of being despised, deserving of harsh treatment. Maybe. I hope not. Because those are my people out there, my friends, my brothers and sisters, and we are hurting them.

They are like me and you. They love their children as I love mine. Those children love and need their parents as mine need me. They seek for hope and security for their families as I do for mine.

I cannot turn my back, shrug my shoulders, blame them for the harshness of our own laws and policies.

But sometimes I have to look away because I don't have enough tears to weep and my power to make a difference is so limited.

Edited by maize
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50 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Well, if I continued to speed and refused to stop, yes, I should have my children taken away while I am sent to jail and at least processed. But there has been no evidence of the children in the detention centers being mistreated. And when someone is breaking the law, they should be stopped. And when someone is arrested for a misdemeanor, which they only get arrested on a class B or A, then yes, their children are removed from them. Every single person in the US who is arrested while they have children with them have the children taken from them and placed elsewhere while the legal issues are worked out. 

 


Is it that you don't believe the many sources posted above that show that toddlers are being given into the care of unrelated 7 year olds, children aren't being given enough food or access to water to wash, children are being denied medical care, children are being kept in situations where there is no where to lie down to sleep, etc . . . or is it that you think that's an acceptable way to treat children?  

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6 minutes ago, maize said:

I have unfortunately had to mostly avoid reading about the horrors being perpetrated on immigrants, especially children.

I am devastated by the callousness and antagonism so many of my fellow citizens express--even people who I know to be kind and thoughtful most of the time. We fall too easily into the trap of seeing far off people or people who are different from us in some way as less human, less worthy of compassion, more frightening (small children getting lumped into an amorphous mass of "invaders") than what they are--other humans with hopes and worries and needs very much like ours.

Maybe, if I hadn't spent significant portions of my own childhood in Latin America, I would not so easily identify with them. Maybe I would be able to turn them into cardboard caricatures of human beings worthy of being despised, deserving of harsh treatment. Maybe. I hope not. Because those are my people out there, my friends, my brothers and sisters, and we are hurting them.

I doubt this.  You seem like a caring person who probably sees people around the world as your people, your friends, etc . . . 

6 minutes ago, maize said:

They are like me and you. They love their children as I love mine. Those children love and need their parents as mine need me. They seek for hope and security for their families as I do for mine.

I cannot turn my back, shrug my shoulders, blame them for the harshness of our own laws. 

But sometimes I have to look away because I don't have enough tears to weep and my power to make a difference is so limited.

 

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For those looking for sources, these threads always end up with links to asylum laws, to refugee conventions, and all sorts of other things. Here’s a list of some of them. All UN and .gov links should be considered official sources.  The Wikipedia links are included for context if you’re interested. There are lots of other links that could be included, like current US policies regarding asylum seekers and refugees, statistics about the number of children being separated (although those are difficult to pull out sometimes, but court orders have helped there), the number of undocumented people in the US and how long they’ve been there, current rates of visa overstays, who overstays their visas, the number of apprehensions at the border, and so much more.  I’m happy to edit to add any of those links if someone wants them, or post them yourself. 

Refugees:

UN 1967 Protocol https://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/ProtocolStatusOfRefugees.aspx

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees

UN 1951 Convention https://www.unhcr.org/3b66c2aa10

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees

Forcibly displaced people (including refugees, asylees, and IDPs)

UN stats https://www.unhcr.org/figures-at-a-glance.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_displacement

Internally displaced people (IDPs):

https://www.unhcr.org/internally-displaced-people.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internally_displaced_person

Stateless people 

https://www.unhcr.org/statelessness.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness

Success story in Kyrgyzstan https://www.unhcr.org/news/press/2019/7/5d1da90d4/kyrgyzstan-ends-statelessness-historic-first.html

US Immigration and Nationality Act (INA)

https://www.uscis.gov/legal-resources/immigration-and-nationality-act

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

US refugee law:

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1157&num=0&edition=prelim

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_Act

US asylum law

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title8-section1158&num=0&edition=prelim

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_the_United_States

US visas (immigrant and nonimmigrant)

Immigrant visa process https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrate/the-immigrant-visa-process.html

Types of visas https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/visa-information-resources/all-visa-categories.html

General visa info https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas.html

 

Edited by Amira
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3 hours ago, Janeway said:

Well, if I continued to speed and refused to stop, yes, I should have my children taken away while I am sent to jail and at least processed. But there has been no evidence of the children in the detention centers being mistreated. And when someone is breaking the law, they should be stopped. And when someone is arrested for a misdemeanor, which they only get arrested on a class B or A, then yes, their children are removed from them. Every single person in the US who is arrested while they have children with them have the children taken from them and placed elsewhere while the legal issues are worked out. 

 

Putting aside the fact that yes, there is a GREAT DEAL of evidence that those children are being badly mistreated, the fact remains that putting children in detention centers is, ipso facto, mistreatment.

If you were a chronic speeder or shoplifter and your children were removed... well, probably they wouldn't be removed from your care at all, even if you couldn't make bail. They'd simply stay with their father. If their father was not acceptable for some reason then, in nearly all cases, you would be able to designate a person to care for your child - a relative or friend you trusted. If and only if that wasn't an option would your child be placed "in the system", which at a young age means in foster care - not baby jail.

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And argh, I've been avoiding this thread because I'm already worked up enough.

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There really isn’t good evidence that many children at the border are being trafficked. Here’s a link to myths about trafficking, and I can post more data showing that trafficking victims in the US are usually citizens, and those who aren’t usually enter the US legally and afterward experience sexual or labor trafficking.  https://polarisproject.org/human-trafficking-myths-and-facts

However, it is very true that trafficking is a serious issues facing forcibly displaced people and we should be paying attention to this worldwide. https://www.unhcr.org/unhcr-human-trafficking.html

Human smuggling is the term that better describes what some fear is happening at the border.  But we really don’t have good data showing how many children are being smuggled across the border.  There’s also a new debate about whether parents should be considered smugglers simply for bringing their children with them on the journey.  We criminalize so many with that kind of thinking.  People have to be able to get out of bad situations without being accused of smuggling their own children.

Even if you do believe that most of these children are victims of human smuggling, I don’t understand how the current policy of detention is helping them.  I feel like the trafficking/smuggling argument is being used to justify harsh policies at the border.  But if these children were actually vicitims, how can these policies be helping them?  A victim of human smuggling should be reunited with their parents as quickly as possible while waiting in a safe and caring space.  They should have toothbrushes and showers.  Competent adults should supervise them.  Their legal rights should be protected.  They should be educated.  These things are not happening.

These children are victims.  Maybe I think it’s because of gangs or war or other unsafe situations at home.  Maybe you think it’s because of trafficking or smuggling.  But no matter what, the current policies are re-victimizing them, and that cannot be right.  We cannot allow it to become acceptable.

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