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heartlikealion

Huge ICE raid in my state

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1 minute ago, Janeway said:

I suspect they don't know what they are getting in to. I suspect it is much like human trafficking. They come for grand promises and then face that and cannot go back. They have been threatened or just do not have the means or otherwise.


I definitely think that there are unscrupulous people making false promises, and then trapping workers.  I don't think that workers come here knowing the worse parts of what they will face.  However, the Central American immigrants that I know have strong ties back home.  There are regular phone calls, and money flowing back and forth between siblings, parents and children, and other close connections here and there.  Given that it's well known here that undocumented immigrants, even those who are victims of situations that are described, work long hours, and face threats from ICE,  and undesirable housing situations, my guess is that the same thing is well known in Central America.  So, while people may not expect the exact conditions that they are walking into, they do come knowing that it's going to be very hard, and very risky, and are making a calculation that while it's going to be hard and dangerous, it's going to be easier or less dangerous than what they left behind.  That fact, alone, is enough for me to say that we need to find a kinder way to support people while we make individual decisions about who can stay or how to support families if someone needs to leave.  

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43 minutes ago, Janeway said:

And I do not think anyone should concern themselves with whether or not criminal parents should be separated from their children. They should be concerned about the fact that the parents were breaking the law and what kind of influence those people are on their children. And why did they come here?

 

I am flabbergasted.

We should always concern ourselves with children.

You realize that not all crimes are equal, right? I have had a couple of speeding tickets over my 35 + years driving, technically I am a criminal with a record. No one wanted to take my child from me. The mention of it would be ludicrous. Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor. We don't take children from their parents for misdemeanors.

Immigration aside, do you know many criminals love and provide for their children? That their children love them? That they live in stable homes, go to school, have friends and families? That many are unaware of their parent's criminal activity? Are you aware of the effects of childhood trauma on development and overall health - and that being separated from a parent for any reason is traumatic? Are you aware of the shortcomings of the foster care system?

Why do they come here? I suggest you watch and read the news from a variety of sources. The information is out there plainly, for everyone to see. The reasons are numerous and understandable by anyone with a sense of empathy.

I am flabbergasted and appalled at the callousness reflected with this statement.

ETA: Here is ONE example of why someone would want to come here. ONE of thousands.

"We had strict protocols for going into their massive tent city—an endless mass of shelters built almost entirely from scraps of tin and cardboard they’d mined from the landfill—because the local missionaries explained that rape and robbery were daily occurrences in the dump. I stepped across streams of raw sewage in the rain boots I’d packed on the advice of previous visitors to this missions site.

The mothers cried. A lot. It was a filthy and violent place, from which they could see no exit. I cried with them, because I could offer a little bit of help, but not nearly enough.

And what I know is this: if that was all my native country could offer to my children, I would put them on my back and walk to the moon to get them out."

https://www.al.com/opinion/2019/06/mercy-and-justice-at-the-border.html

Edited by TechWife
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24 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Okay, so I did find an article that talked about a couple children, so maybe there were more, but still..this is illegal. They were breaking the law. And I do not think anyone should concern themselves with whether or not criminal parents should be separated from their children. They should be concerned about the fact that the parents were breaking the law and what kind of influence those people are on their children.

I can say with absolute certainty that if I were in the same situation as many of these refugees that I too would become a "criminal" in order to give a better life to my children. What kind of influence would that have on my children? It would show them that I love them. People don't uproot themselves and their families and risk their lives to come to the US for sh*ts and giggles.  For god's sake, have a heart.

 

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I admit I don't know the answer, but month or so ago I spoke with a woman who lives near the border and works to help with the influx of people...she says that the number of people arriving to their one little town is something like 5x the population of her county per month. It's just unsustainable. And many of the young women and girls coming with their "families" are actually being trafficked long before they even get to Mexico. People seeking asylum won't go through a port of entry, there's no way to intake that many people in an orderly Ellis Island sort of way (even that wouldn't be humane by today's standards), and the journey itself is extremely, horribly dangerous and deadly. And when they get here, they are working under the table sweatshop/manual labor jobs while constantly at risk of being detained and deported!

I personally think that the ICE raids should focus on the employers, they are the ones who should be arrested live on TV for all to see, but also the coyote trafficking of people across the desert needs to be dis-incentivized in a major, major way to reduce deaths, detentions, unaccompanied minors in danger, and family separations.

I also have the very controversial opinion that the people ultimately responsible for their children's welfare are their parents. If I commit a crime, I know what could happen to my family as a result. And children can't be housed with adults in these detention centers, or any detention centers, really. I don't see how people think that should work?

People need to stop immigrating this way. We need more resources at the border to handle the influx, absolutely, but the whole route needs to be dis-incentivized as any kind of option for people (parents especially) to take to get here. I don't know a solution that doesn't involve penalties for breaking the law, unless Congress changes the law.

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31 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I'd like to think yes, but I have no idea what percentage of these kids could also land in the abused category. At any rate, I tend to agree that the kids are being ripped apart from their parents because Mom and Dad made bad decisions (or rather, illegal ones. Maybe in their case it seemed the lesser of two evils. Staying put was possibly not getting the food on the table or whatever. I don't know their specifics). 

 

Seriously? You think undocumented = abusive? For cripes sake, if you or I were looking for better for our kids, we'd do whatever the heck we had to to care for them, provide for them, and keep them safe. That's love, not abuse. Most of these kids are US citizens and know no other country. What do you suppose will happen when they're old enough to vote? Who will they hold responsible? How is this shaping their psyches? If you watch the video from local news outlets, you see their American born, southern, probably conservative coworkers in tears. THAT is humanity.

Edited by Sneezyone
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1 hour ago, EmseB said:

 

I also have the very controversial opinion that the people ultimately responsible for their children's welfare are their parents. If I commit a crime, I know what could happen to my family as a result. And children can't be housed with adults in these detention centers, or any detention centers, really. I don't see how people think that should work?

I don't understand this, either. Like did they weigh the pros and cons and know that so and so did it and everything is going well so let's risk it? 

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I have to believe most of the people commenting on this thread have never visited a poultry processing plant or commercial hog farms. Americans willing to do this work for the pay they offer are few and far between. The last time they cracked down on immigrant labor, tomatoes rotted on the vine and prices skyrocketed. The same would happen to meat and poultry in this country. Maybe some people are OK with that and it wouldn't affect their budget much. Most Americans would feel that strain mightily. If you want to curb undocumented immigration, lock up the CEOs. Leave the kids alone. Paying for these kids' food, shelter, housing, etc. via foster care, and warping their minds such that they may never be the same, is not the answer. ANYONE parenting a RAD kid, or at all involved in the foster/adopt system, knows this. My greatest fear is that a child might be housed with a family that seeks to make them feel 'grateful' for their fate. Here we are...sowing seeds of the next great hate movement. Hegemony never lasts.

Edited by Sneezyone
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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Seriously? You think undocumented = abusive? For cripes sake, if you or I were looking for better for our kids, we'd do whatever the heck we had to to care for them, provide for them, and keep them safe. That's love, not abuse. Most of these kids are US citizens and know no other country. What do you suppose will happen when they're old enough to vote? Who will they hold responsible? How is this shaping their psyches? If you watch the video from local news outlets, you see their American born, southern, probably conservative coworkers in tears. THAT is humanity.

Goodness, I just said don't assume that all documented people/children of documented people are the only ones that could suffer abuse. I'm reading Three Little Words right now. It's written by an American and what she went through being shuffled through the foster care system. She had one set of foster parents that were awful (made the kids drink Tabasco sauce as a punishment) and they taught classes to other foster parents because they were seen by outsiders as exemplary parents. I'm not saying AT ALL that I think the average undocumented families are abusive. Just that you can't draw a line in the sand and say, "no foster care for you, you haven't been abused" without actually knowing. As I've said before, I worked with ESL students last year. No, I didn't assume who was abused or who was documented. 

I think you took my words way out of context. 

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5 minutes ago, EmseB said:

People seeking asylum won't go through a port of entry, there's no way to intake that many people in an orderly Ellis Island sort of way (even that wouldn't be humane by today's standards),

 

I take issue with this. We are a rich country, filled with brilliant people. Processing asylum seekers at the border is not an insurmountable problem. It is not. It is an issue of managing paperwork and granting hearings in a timely manner.  There is no reason, at this point, that the border agents, ICE, immigration judges, etc. should not be working 24/7 shifts at this point. It's an emergency, treat it like one. There is no reason we can't supply data management systems capable of managing the paperwork. There is no reason we can't feed people, provide food, shelter and medical care to vulnerable people. There is no reason that we cannot change the laws and the rules (most of what is at issue are rules about how to enforce laws) to reflect the reality we are in.

When there's a will, there's a way.

My grandmother, her sister and mother came through Ellis Island. She had nothing but good things to say about the process. She got to see a doctor, got some shots and was granted entry into the country within 48 hours. She was relieved, because she had already lost two siblings to starvation in her home country.

 

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6 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Goodness, I just said don't assume that all documented people/children of documented people are the only ones that could suffer abuse. I'm reading Three Little Words right now. It's written by an American and what she went through being shuffled through the foster care system. She had one set of foster parents that were awful (made the kids drink Tabasco sauce as a punishment) and they taught classes to other foster parents because they were seen by outsiders as exemplary parents. I'm not saying AT ALL that I think the average undocumented families are abusive. Just that you can't draw a line in the sand and say, "no foster care for you, you haven't been abused" without actually knowing. As I've said before, I worked with ESL students last year. No, I didn't assume who was abused or who was documented. 

I think you took my words way out of context. 

 

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. EVEN kids who have been abused often have some love/attachment to their families. RAD is a fundamental inability to ATTACH to others in a healthy way. THIS is what we are doing to kids. Also keep in mind that these kids were in school and either came home (or couldn't) to no one. That is inherently traumatizing. This is not something to minimize. I agree that individual evaluations should be made but not AFTER the trauma has been inflicted. The parents WERE caring for them. Now the public must.

Edited by Sneezyone
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10 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I can say with absolute certainty that if I were in the same situation as many of these refugees that I too would become a "criminal" in order to give a better life to my children. What kind of influence would that have on my children? It would show them that I love them. People don't uproot themselves and their families and risk their lives to come to the US for sh*ts and giggles.  For god's sake, have a heart.

 

Refugee is a legal designation that, AFAIK, most people crossing from Mexico do not have.

I wouldn't risk my daughter (or sons) being trafficked by goodness knows who. I just couldn't do it. Knowing what I know about what it takes to come across the southern border of this country illegally I would not put my family in that position. It would be deliberately traumatizing them, possibly killing them. I agree they don't do it for fun, but if I were at risk of literally dying in my home country, I can't see how risking detention at best, death or slavery at worst, is the responsible choice as a parent. Especially when there are legal ways to seek asylum from any number of countries that would not involve something so absolutely, horrifically risky and traumatizing for my children. And if I did risk it, I absolutely would not put the responsibility for that choice onto someone else.

My heart breaks for the children who have no choice in their parents taking them on this trip. I donate what I can to help them when they get here, but it's probably a pittance compared to what they need. I have to think the parents must not know how risky it really is or what the risks really are or they wouldn't do it...because the chances of it not being a better life are super, super high.

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2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Refugee is a legal designation that, AFAIK, most people crossing from Mexico do not have.

I wouldn't risk my daughter (or sons) being trafficked by goodness knows who. I just couldn't do it. Knowing what I know about what it takes to come across the southern border of this country illegally I would not put my family in that position. It would be deliberately traumatizing them, possibly killing them. I agree they don't do it for fun, but if I were at risk of literally dying in my home country, I can't see how risking detention at best, death or slavery at worst, is the responsible choice as a parent. Especially when there are legal ways to seek asylum from any number of countries that would not involve something so absolutely, horrifically risky and traumatizing for my children. And if I did risk it, I absolutely would not put the responsibility for that choice onto someone else.

My heart breaks for the children who have no choice in their parents taking them on this trip. I donate what I can to help them when they get here, but it's probably a pittance compared to what they need. I have to think the parents must not know how risky it really is or what the risks really are or they wouldn't do it...because the chances of it not being a better life are super, super high.

 

These parents were working and caring for their own kids. They're not trafficked. They were enrolled in school and came home (or didn't) to nothing and no one. It sounds like you're saying you would happily march off to the firing squad with your children rather than risk detention in the "city on the hill"? Are you kidding right now?

Edited by Sneezyone
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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. EVEN kids who have been abused often have some love/attachment to their families. RAD is a fundamental inability to ATTACH to others in a healthy way. THIS is what we are doing to kids. Also keep in mind that these kids were in school and either came home (or couldn't) to no one. That is inherently traumatizing. This is not something to minimize. I agree that individual evaluations should be made but not AFTER the trauma has been inflicted.

These are two different things. You first said, "you think undocumented = abused?" and I was responding to that. I was not discussing attachment nor was I suggesting foster care systems, etc.  I was just saying that if a kid had NO WHERE to go, it should be the foster care system or a shelter as opposed to an empty house? I was never in favor of the kids being separated to begin with. I know these kids can't just live alone, either. 

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3 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

These are two different things. You first said, "you think undocumented = abused?" and I was responding to that. I was not discussing attachment nor was I suggesting foster care systems, etc.  I was just saying that if a kid had NO WHERE to go, it should be the foster care system or a shelter as opposed to an empty house? I was never in favor of the kids being separated to begin with. I know these kids can't just live alone, either. 

 

Thank you. I did misread.

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20 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I have to believe most of the people commenting on this thread have never visited a poultry processing plant or commercial hog farms. Americans willing to do this work for the pay they offer are few and far between. The last time they cracked down on immigrant labor, tomatoes rotted on the vine and prices skyrocketed. The same would happen to meat and poultry in this country. Maybe some people are OK with that and it wouldn't affect their budget much. Most Americans would feel that strain mightily. If you want to curb undocumented immigration, lock up the CEOs. Leave the kids alone. Paying for these kids' food, shelter, housing, etc. via foster care, and warping their minds such that they may never be the same, is not the answer. ANYONE parenting a RAD kid, or at all involved in the foster/adopt system, knows this. My greatest fear is that a child might be housed with a family that seeks to make them feel 'grateful' for their fate. Here we are...sowing seeds of the next great hate movement. Hegemony never lasts.

 

During this time, in the state my sister lives in, farmers put out a huge call for unemployed citizens to come pick there crops because the migrant working illegal immigrants stopped showing up out of fear.  All across farms in her state farmers found tons of help from unemployed citizens because the economy was in the shitter and tons of people were desperate for jobs.  But by day 2 on average only 2 people returned to work the next day.  The jobs were too hard for them even though the pay was fair.  Large amounts of crops were lost throughout the whole state.

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2 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

During this time, in the state my sister lives in, farmers put out a huge call for unemployed citizens to come pick there crops because the migrant working illegal immigrants stopped showing up out of fear.  All across farms in her state farmers found tons of help from unemployed citizens because the economy was in the shitter and tons of people were desperate for jobs.  But by day 2 on average only 2 people returned to work the next day.  The jobs were too hard for them even though the pay was fair.  Large amounts of crops were lost throughout the whole state.

 

That's just it, the pay ISN'T fair if the people won't stay. If the price is high enough, someone will do the work. Still, I get your point. It is backbreaking labor. Throughout American history, immigrants have done this kind of undervalued work. The idea that it is unskilled tho is a fallacy.

Edited by Sneezyone
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7 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

We have a local farm that I am quite positive has a number of illegal immigrants working on it.  I’ve been there with the ambulance and when we show up with red lights flashing, people start running into the woods. Instead of arresting them, I’d rather see the owners and managers of the farm arrested.  I’ve been inside the “housing” they provide and it’s incredibly overcrowded—14 or 15 people in a single wide, one bathroom trailer. I’m sure they aren’t paying legal wages either. Of course they aren’t offering benefits either, but since these are illegal immigrants none of the workers are going to complain.

My personal opinion is to arrest the hiring managers and anyone else facilitating the hiring or poor conditions.  Then find a way to offer a path to legal immigration or citizenship, pending a background check. But I don’t run the world.

We were out driving the backroads yesterday, partly to entertain the dog and to take photos of deer. We stopped at a 4 way, and I was focusing my camera out the window when I realized people were running, adults and kids. My first thought was wow, I’ve never seen any Hispanics around here( nor black or Asian, for that matter). Then I was horrified when I realized they were perhaps immigrant farmers and I’d scared them. I made dh stop so I could yell out to one little girl that we were only taking pics of deer. I felt so miserable.

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13 minutes ago, EmseB said:

 I agree they don't do it for fun, but if I were at risk of literally dying in my home country, I can't see how risking detention at best, death or slavery at worst, is the responsible choice as a parent.


I think you have summed it up. You can't see.

Detention is not the best scenario, either. Living safely in a country of plenty is. Detention is not the goal of these parents. Living safely in a country of plenty is. Detention is not the goal. Having a place to work, food to eat, freedom from gang life is. Detention is not the goal. Access to food, clothing, education, and life, is the goal.

Is it responsible to live in a garbage dump when the possibility exists to migrate to a safe nation, where jobs & education are available and both children and adults have access to food and shelter?

Also, consider this: Is detention better or worse than living in a literal garbage dump?

ETA: One of the greatest losses in our culture is our lack of imagination.

Edited by TechWife
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12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I have to believe most of the people commenting on this thread have never visited a poultry processing plant or commercial hog farms. Americans willing to do this work for the pay they offer are few and far between. The last time they cracked down on immigrant labor, tomatoes rotted on the vine and prices skyrocketed. The same would happen to meat and poultry in this country. Maybe some people are OK with that and it wouldn't affect their budget much. Most Americans would feel that strain mightily. If you want to curb undocumented immigration, lock up the CEOs. Leave the kids alone. Paying for these kids' food, shelter, housing, etc. via foster care, and warping their minds such that they may never be the same, is not the answer. ANYONE parenting a RAD kid, or at all involved in the foster/adopt system, knows this. My greatest fear is that a child might be housed with a family that seeks to make them feel 'grateful' for their fate. Here we are...sowing seeds of the next great hate movement. Hegemony never lasts.

I am okay with prices going up because workers are paid a fair wage. And I grew up on farm land and knew people working in these plants. The same excuses for bringing in illegals, skipping out on taxes (the companies skip out on a lot of taxes when they are hiding employees), under paying and mistreating the illegals, were used for why we needed to keep slavery. And it is not ok.

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44 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 

I am flabbergasted.

We should always concern ourselves with children.

You realize that not all crimes are equal, right? I have had a couple of speeding tickets over my 35 + years driving, technically I am a criminal with a record. No one wanted to take my child from me. The mention of it would be ludicrous. Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor. We don't take children from their parents for misdemeanors.

Immigration aside, do you know many criminals love and provide for their children? That their children love them? That they live in stable homes, go to school, have friends and families? That many are unaware of their parent's criminal activity? Are you aware of the effects of childhood trauma on development and overall health - and that being separated from a parent for any reason is traumatic? Are you aware of the shortcomings of the foster care system?

Why do they come here? I suggest you watch and read the news from a variety of sources. The information is out there plainly, for everyone to see. The reasons are numerous and understandable by anyone with a sense of empathy.

I am flabbergasted and appalled at the callousness reflected with this statement.

ETA: Here is ONE example of why someone would want to come here. ONE of thousands.

"We had strict protocols for going into their massive tent city—an endless mass of shelters built almost entirely from scraps of tin and cardboard they’d mined from the landfill—because the local missionaries explained that rape and robbery were daily occurrences in the dump. I stepped across streams of raw sewage in the rain boots I’d packed on the advice of previous visitors to this missions site.

The mothers cried. A lot. It was a filthy and violent place, from which they could see no exit. I cried with them, because I could offer a little bit of help, but not nearly enough.

And what I know is this: if that was all my native country could offer to my children, I would put them on my back and walk to the moon to get them out."

https://www.al.com/opinion/2019/06/mercy-and-justice-at-the-border.html

 

Yes, to all of the above. We should always be concerned about children. 

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1 hour ago, TechWife said:

It’s not a net gain. Additionally, removing children from their parents without intending to reunite them (as evidenced by the lack of documentation and tracking done by authorities) and then placing them up for adoption is child trafficking, IMO. 

That is not what is occurring.

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1 hour ago, Janeway said:

And this post thread is crossing over in to political because even if there were children, these are still people breaking the law. I think human trafficking victims should be helped, but the US has become a target for this kind of thing. Okay, so I did find an article that talked about a couple children, so maybe there were more, but still..this is illegal. They were breaking the law. And I do not think anyone should concern themselves with whether or not criminal parents should be separated from their children. They should be concerned about the fact that the parents were breaking the law and what kind of influence those people are on their children. 

 

WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE CHILDREN. ALWAYS. no matter what their parents did or did not do. It is inhumane otherwise, always.

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11 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I am okay with prices going up because workers are paid a fair wage. And I grew up on farm land and knew people working in these plants. The same excuses for bringing in illegals, skipping out on taxes (the companies skip out on a lot of taxes when they are hiding employees), under paying and mistreating the illegals, were used for why we needed to keep slavery. And it is not ok.

 

Taxes aren't 'skipped' when people provide false documents. They are paid under false SSNs. We all benefit from those who cannot legally recoup what they pay into the system. I agree that CEOs should be locked up for knowingly employing underpaid, exploited immigrant laborers tho. I also think you're a bit naive about the consequences for the American economy and most Americans that are barely scraping by, paycheck to paycheck. Increased food costs would be disastrous. 

Edited by Sneezyone
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48 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I can say with absolute certainty that if I were in the same situation as many of these refugees that I too would become a "criminal" in order to give a better life to my children. What kind of influence would that have on my children? It would show them that I love them. People don't uproot themselves and their families and risk their lives to come to the US for sh*ts and giggles.  For god's sake, have a heart.

 

 

Me too. Thank God my grandmother snuck over a river in East Germany & came to America. What she did was illegal in East Germany. I'm glad she was a lawbreaker.

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I don't think many Americans have a full comprehension of how bad things are in Honduras, Salvador, and Guatemala.

Nor our nations responsibility in creating the violence, instability, and despair that is driving parents to take actions that we can't comprehend living in a land of privilege.

The United States has an extremely bad record in Central America. 

We need leadership that positively engages the region and undoes much of the damage that we created in these societies.

Bill

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2 minutes ago, SKL said:

That is not what is occurring.

 

You're right. That is what *has* occurred at the border.

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36 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

We are in dark days in this country.

Bill

 

Yes, and some of the ugly views shared here demonstrate the dark days. 

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14 minutes ago, TechWife said:

 

I take issue with this. We are a rich country, filled with brilliant people. Processing asylum seekers at the border is not an insurmountable problem. It is not. It is an issue of managing paperwork and granting hearings in a timely manner.  There is no reason, at this point, that the border agents, ICE, immigration judges, etc. should not be working 24/7 shifts at this point. It's an emergency, treat it like one. There is no reason we can't supply data management systems capable of managing the paperwork. There is no reason we can't feed people, provide food, shelter and medical care to vulnerable people. There is no reason that we cannot change the laws and the rules (most of what is at issue are rules about how to enforce laws) to reflect the reality we are in.

When there's a will, there's a way.

My grandmother, her sister and mother came through Ellis Island. She had nothing but good things to say about the process. She got to see a doctor, got some shots and was granted entry into the country within 48 hours. She was relieved, because she had already lost two siblings to starvation in her home country.

 

Yes, Congress has to allocate more funding to all of this in order for it to work. More money for immigration courts, CBP, and ICE to process everyone. Congress has to change the law if they want no penalties for coming here illegally. CBP and ICE are simply enforcment. They have no power to do that.

But at the same time, the legal process can't be instantaneous even with all the money in the world. Running background checks and determining asylum claims and family relationships as legit or not takes a HUGE amount of resources and time in the best of circumstances where everyone has ID and references all lined up for investigation. It's not as simple as just having 24hr shifts (as if LE aren't already working around the clock?). And even if you could snap your fingers and do that work instantaneously and magically create more judges out of thin air to process these thousands of people, that doesn't take away from the fact of the human trafficking and the deathly dangerous trek people are taking to even get to that point where many are dying or being bought and sold. THAT is unacceptable and unsustainable and we don't want a system that encourages it.

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1 hour ago, Janeway said:

There is nothing in this article stating that there were families. This seems to be nothing more than a sweat house, which is not ok.

 

And this post thread is crossing over in to political because even if there were children, these are still people breaking the law. I think human trafficking victims should be helped, but the US has become a target for this kind of thing. Okay, so I did find an article that talked about a couple children, so maybe there were more, but still..this is illegal. They were breaking the law. And I do not think anyone should concern themselves with whether or not criminal parents should be separated from their children. They should be concerned about the fact that the parents were breaking the law and what kind of influence those people are on their children. And why did they come here? Many passed through several countries to get here because the US has become a welfare state. Most countries do not allow this. I do not think any country really allows what the US puts up with and I blame the media for making out criminals are victims and ignoring what those who follow the law go through.

I don’t know, Janeway. I think you come across as one heck of a heartless person here, and that’s the nicest thing I can call you. But I still would be concerned for your kids if you decided to break the law. No matter what kind of scum you are. Because it’s a CHILD, for God’s sake. Didn’t he have some things to say about stuff like that?

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11 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I am okay with prices going up because workers are paid a fair wage. And I grew up on farm land and knew people working in these plants. The same excuses for bringing in illegals, skipping out on taxes (the companies skip out on a lot of taxes when they are hiding employees), under paying and mistreating the illegals, were used for why we needed to keep slavery. And it is not ok.

FFS. Human beings are not "illegal." They might be undocumented, in an irregular situation, but NO HUMAN BEING IS ILLEGAL. That is such a dehumanizing term.

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8 minutes ago, SKL said:

That is not what is occurring.

Yes, it is.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/06/us/family-separation-trump-administration.html

Also, yesterday, the care of the children was not taken into account at all when the raids occurred. Children were stranded at school, went home to empty houses, etc.. - no care was taken for the children. CHILDREN.

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7 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Yes, Congress has to allocate more funding to all of this in order for it to work. More money for immigration courts, CBP, and ICE to process everyone. Congress has to change the law if they want no penalties for coming here illegally. CBP and ICE are simply enforcment. They have no power to do that.

But at the same time, the legal process can't be instantaneous even with all the money in the world. Running background checks and determining asylum claims and family relationships as legit or not takes a HUGE amount of resources and time in the best of circumstances where everyone has ID and references all lined up for investigation. It's not as simple as just having 24hr shifts (as if LE aren't already working around the clock?). And even if you could snap your fingers and do that work instantaneously and magically create more judges out of thin air to process these thousands of people, that doesn't take away from the fact of the human trafficking and the deathly dangerous trek people are taking to even get to that point where many are dying or being bought and sold. THAT is unacceptable and unsustainable and we don't want a system that encourages it.

 

Again, the question is, what do you value more? The ability to process people effectively and treat these people as humans (the same driving impulses that we have) or the desire to keep EVERYONE OUT regardless of the merits of their claims (including any trafficking). Also, BTW,  most women and girls aren't trafficked through the southern border. They come from Africa and Eastern Europe by plane (see Epstein). http://www.purpleteardrop.org.uk/human-trafficking/where-do-trafficked-people-come-from/

If the goal is to evaluate each claim, then you do what you have to do to staff up. You don't need to snap your fingers, there are tons of lawyers who would do the job for a fair wage.

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9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Taxes aren't 'skipped' when people provide false documents. They are paid under false SSNs. We all benefit from those who cannot legally recoup what they pay into the system. I agree that CEOs should be locked up for knowingly employing underpaid, exploited immigrant laborers tho. I also think you're a bit naive about the consequences for the American economy and most Americans that are barely scraping by, paycheck to paycheck. Increased food costs would be disastrous. 

 

Additionally, some get Tax ID numbers and use those to work - taxes are withheld/paid based on those.

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2 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

During this time, in the state my sister lives in, farmers put out a huge call for unemployed citizens to come pick there crops because the migrant working illegal immigrants stopped showing up out of fear.  All across farms in her state farmers found tons of help from unemployed citizens because the economy was in the shitter and tons of people were desperate for jobs.  But by day 2 on average only 2 people returned to work the next day.  The jobs were too hard for them even though the pay was fair.  Large amounts of crops were lost throughout the whole state.

Let's be fair to the people who didn't come back. Farm work is dangerous. Around here the farmers are willing to hire citizens, and in particular high schoolers, but no one will return after trying it. 80-100 degree weather, only one 20 minute break in an 8 hour day, and allowed one 16 oz bottle of water in the morning four hours, and one during the afternoon. The foremen walk around taking away water from workers because it is a distraction from getting the absolute maximum work extracted out of these kids. Routinely in the summer, EMS ends up picking up teens from these farms, sun stroke, heat stroke, dehyration, and they are even hassled about taking time to reapply sunscreen. it is insane. The farmer owners here literally want slave labor. Our state authorities do not give a crap. Minimum wage and putting your life on the line for no benefits. And that's not the only kind of abuse, it is amazing to me the number of kids who have been injured, and the farmers have refused to allow them to call their parents - and yes, they confiscate cell phones. The excuse is the kids will be on the cell phone all the time, and to be fair, some kids are that screen addicted. But the ones that really want and need the money aren't on their phones. The confiscation is so they can't take pictures of what is going on in those fields and barns, or call their parents when sick or injured. It's equal opportunity abuse as well. Every year there farm owner children injured and killed on the farms. They are more than happy to do it to their own kids. I'll never understand the mentality. If the business of farming is such that the only way to be stay fiscally in the black is to constantly endanger and abuse people, then seriously, sell the farm and get a different job. 

I will NEVER let my kids do field work locally, nor dairy work which is exceptionally dangerous and only pays minimum wage. My kids have worked for fiber and horse farms, and love that work. We've found that the attitude of these owners is entirely different than other farms. In this regard, my sons have served as shepherds and stable hands, and the owners want well trained people who will care for their animals with compassion and a high degree of attention to detail. They pay commensurate to the teen/young adult's skills. Our guys love farm sitting for sheep, goats, llamas/alpacas, and horses, and do it often throughout the summer.

There are complex reasons for why in 2019 the work conditions for farm laborers is still so abysmal, and part of that is price controls to keep food costs low. Americans don't want to pay a fair price for vegetables, fruits, grains, and meat/dairy. The economy here is based on paying very low for food. In countries where there is respect for farm laborers, and citizens expect them to be paid fairly and taken care of properly, they pay more for food. Same for clothing. If Americans decide they don't want textile sweat shops, then the culture is going to have to adjust to buying less clothing and paying more for each item. This is not conducive to the capitalist concept of a rapidly and always expanding consumer based economy.

As far as the policies pertaining to children, in the long term, treating children like this is a sure fire way to create future criminals and terrorists. For one thing, it may cause Reactive Attachment Disorder, and further, it turns the USA into their arch enemy, their abusers. They aren't going to grow up and think, "Wow. What happened to me was unfortunate, but oh well, life goes on." Nope, they'll look at the policies, the sheer number of people who supported and defended those policies, and think, "Yep. I want revenge." We have consequences to face in the future for the inhumane nature of how non citizens were treated in the last few years.

 

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7 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

We have a local farm that I am quite positive has a number of illegal immigrants working on it.  I’ve been there with the ambulance and when we show up with red lights flashing, people start running into the woods. Instead of arresting them, I’d rather see the owners and managers of the farm arrested.  I’ve been inside the “housing” they provide and it’s incredibly overcrowded—14 or 15 people in a single wide, one bathroom trailer. I’m sure they aren’t paying legal wages either. Of course they aren’t offering benefits either, but since these are illegal immigrants none of the workers are going to complain.

My personal opinion is to arrest the hiring managers and anyone else facilitating the hiring or poor conditions.  Then find a way to offer a path to legal immigration or citizenship, pending a background check. But I don’t run the world.

Yeah. When illegal immigration and overstayed visas result in exploitation it’s an issue, and that happens so much.  I’m for big crack downs on employment and verification of legal status as critical hurdles WAY before deporting anyone.  Drying up any incentive to come is another angle.  Those are all things that can be done without actually disrupting individual lives or displacing anyone and it’s really the best place to start, IMO.

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I live in a place, right now, where there are millions and millions of refugees and asylum seekers who have fled from multiple wars in multiple countries over their lifetimes.  There are also economic migrants here, in a country that has extremely low wages and few job opportunities for migrants, because the economic opportunities here are better than where they came from.  The very idea that separating these children from their parents would fix anything is ludicrous and no one here would suggest it because it’s simply stupid.  

But that is exactly what the US is doing.  Even though it’s stupid.  And harmful.  And pointless.  It creates an entirely new trauma for children and families whose lives are already the definition of traumatic. And it does literally nothing to solve the very real problems that forced people to leave their homes in the first place.  Why in the world should children be punished again and again and again?

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16 minutes ago, SKL said:

That is not what is occurring.

Not true, even Bethany Christian Services out of Grand Rapids, MI - a private foster care and adoption agency is implicated. Numerous journalists have asked the Attorney General to investigate them.

https://rewire.news/article/2018/06/27/christian-group-fostering-migrant-kids-history-coercive-adoptions/

 

 

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Perhaps some of you should do a bit of research into why conditions are so poor in those countries that families are fleeing (using credible sources).  The US is culpable in a major way through foreign policy travesty after travesty designed to make life better for US at the expense of everyone else.  For a bunch of autodidacts and persons teaching history to our own children we sure are an uneducated bunch, no?  This is ultimately OUR fault.  To think we should take the fruits of our decades of labor and blame it on the victims WE CREATED is just inexcusable.  Do your homework, and stop pretending to have superior moral and family values defined by your compassionate religious icon.  You know who you are.

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8 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Yes, Congress has to allocate more funding to all of this in order for it to work. More money for immigration courts, CBP, and ICE to process everyone. Congress has to change the law if they want no penalties for coming here illegally. CBP and ICE are simply enforcment. They have no power to do that.

But at the same time, the legal process can't be instantaneous even with all the money in the world. Running background checks and determining asylum claims and family relationships as legit or not takes a HUGE amount of resources and time in the best of circumstances where everyone has ID and references all lined up for investigation. It's not as simple as just having 24hr shifts (as if LE aren't already working around the clock?). And even if you could snap your fingers and do that work instantaneously and magically create more judges out of thin air to process these thousands of people, that doesn't take away from the fact of the human trafficking and the deathly dangerous trek people are taking to even get to that point where many are dying or being bought and sold. THAT is unacceptable and unsustainable and we don't want a system that encourages it.

 

Yes, you're right. It takes money to change things. This country has a lot of that. Again, I state that there is no reason that cannot be done in the US. Will we not to other things? Of course. I didn't say it would be instantaneous, but it can be done. This has been going on for months and months and months now and no action has been taken to improve or speed up the process. These are administrative duties. Having 24 hour shifts isn't simple, but it's a start. Yes, actually, judges can be appointed, not at the snap of a finger, but at signing of an appointment or at the increasing of a budget.  Right now, judge appointments are happening and being confirmed at a dizzying pace. Add some for immigration courts. This isn't rocket science.

In order to discourage human trafficking and dangerous journeys, we need a viable method for entry into our very prosperous, resourceful nation.

Again, when there's a will, there's a way.

People who want to solve problems use their imaginations.

There can be new processes, procedures, facilities, etc.. We can treat people as if they are human beings operating under a great deal of stress. It will take imagination and willpower. It's much easier to wring one's hands and say "it can't be done" or "it's hard." Really, that's just an excuse to maintain the status quo, and there are numerous reasons various people want to do that.

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24 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

These parents were working and caring for their own kids. They're not trafficked. They were enrolled in school and came home (or didn't) to nothing and no one. It sounds like you're saying you would happily march off to the firing squad with your children rather than risk detention in the "city on the hill"? Are you kidding right now?

Firing squad strawman aside, I can't say that constantly living in fear that my children will be left without me, knowing I'm putting them at that risk, would be my choice. But if I thought it was the better option than my home country, I'd have to live with that every day as my responsibility and my choice.

And if they crossed the border illegally, they absolutely were trafficked. That is what coyotes do, and it is lucrative for them with no guarantee for success or even life for those who pay them.

I can't say that the US is a shining city on a hill for people who come here illegally. It just isn't. It's more of a hell hole in that case, IF they are able to make it across the desert and get by Mexican authorities. If people know what they and their kids will be subjected to in the desert, at the river, at the detention centers, in the country...without coming in via a legal port of entry? I don't know what to say to that. It is awful and traumatizing for adults, much less children.

I also don't know any other country that wouldn't imprison me or deport me for trying to live or work there illegally. I can't just decide to pack up my family and go live in Norway or Canada or the UK and get a job and live life without risk of being discovered, detained, and deported, right? And they are arguably better than the US in terms of standard of living, no? And what would happen if I tried to go to Mexico or Guatemala without the right bonafides?

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3 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Firing squad strawman aside, I can't say that constantly living in fear that my children will be left without me, knowing I'm putting them at that risk, would be my choice. But if I thought it was the better option than my home country, I'd have to live with that every day as my responsibility and my choice.

And if they crossed the border illegally, they absolutely were trafficked. That is what coyotes do, and it is lucrative for them with no guarantee for success or even life for those who pay them.

I can't say that the US is a shining city on a hill for people who come here illegally. It just isn't. It's more of a hell hole in that case, IF they are able to make it across the desert and get by Mexican authorities. If people know what they and their kids will be subjected to in the desert, at the river, at the detention centers, in the country...without coming in via a legal port of entry? I don't know what to say to that. It is awful and traumatizing for adults, much less children.

I also don't know any other country that wouldn't imprison me or deport me for trying to live or work there illegally. I can't just decide to pack up my family and go live in Norway or Canada or the UK and get a job and live life without risk of being discovered, detained, and deported, right? And they are arguably better than the US in terms of standard of living, no? And what would happen if I tried to go to Mexico or Guatemala without the right bonafides?

 

First, everyone doesn't use a coyote. Second, legal ports of entry in this country are currently being metered meaning, whatever your circumstance, you have to take a number and get in line. My God, we are literally treating these migrants the way we did the St. Louis and you think that's OK. It is shameful. Quite literally, this kind of inhumane detention only happens here. Americans cross into Canada, work, and return without detention every day. If you feel desperate, you should try to cross into Mexico and see what happens. Report back and let us know. Watching Americans as refugees in Canada on the Handmaid's Tale (albeit fictional) may be instructive.

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What is happening at the border and ICE raids at sweat shops are two completely different things.

At the border, the vast majority of kids who are placed with foster families were not traveling with their families.  Even then, they try to find a relative in the US to take them if they can.

A very large number of children crossing the border have been trafficked.  They have no DNA relation to the people they are with.  Or they have been sent alone with strangers, being too young to care for themselves.  This is high level child abuse.  It should not be controversial that the US needs to rescue these children.

Of course they need to improve.  Part of the problem is the sheer magnitude of the influx for which they were unable to adequately prepare in time. 

A lot of the reporting on this issue is just plain untrue, which is unhelpful to the actual people needing help.

But back to the original issue - yes they should charge the business owners.  This will inevitably leave these people out of work.  Things will go from bad to worse, but they always knew that could happen.

Also re the original issue, the OP said the children have been reunited with their folks.  As I would have predicted.  ICE rarely does more than process and release people who aren't committing crimes other than just being here illegally.  Usually they are not deported if they have not committed another crime; and those who are deported have a long time period between the time they were caught/released and the time they have to get on the plane and leave.

But as for why they do ICE raids like they do - how else would they gather evidence against the employers?

As for a potential shortage of workers, there are work permit programs, and perhaps these programs could be expanded in times when employment is high.  Above board employment for these folks would be a big improvement in every respect.  Except maybe their employer's profit.

 

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47 minutes ago, SKL said:

At the border, the vast majority of kids who are placed with foster families were not traveling with their families.  Even then, they try to find a relative in the US to take them if they can.

A very large number of children crossing the border have been trafficked.  They have no DNA relation to the people they are with.  Or they have been sent alone with strangers, being too young to care for themselves.  This is high level child abuse.  It should not be controversial that the US needs to rescue these children.

Of course they need to improve.  Part of the problem is the sheer magnitude of the influx for which they were unable to adequately prepare in time. 

A lot of the reporting on this issue is just plain untrue, which is unhelpful to the actual people needing help.

But back to the original issue - yes they should charge the business owners.  This will inevitably leave these people out of work.  Things will go from bad to worse, but they always knew that could happen.

Also re the original issue, the OP said the children have been reunited with their folks.  As I would have predicted.  ICE rarely does more than process and release people who aren't committing crimes other than just being here illegally.  Usually they are not deported if they have not committed another crime; and those who are deported have a long time period between the time they were caught/released and the time they have to get on the plane and leave.

But as for why they do ICE raids like they do - how else would they gather evidence against the employers?

As for a potential shortage of workers, there are work permit programs, and perhaps these programs could be expanded in times when employment is high.  Above board employment for these folks would be a big improvement in every respect.  Except maybe their employer's profit.

 

 

1. This is demonstrably false. These children were miscoded as being unaccompanied when they, in fact, were. How you define family (must it be a parent or can it be an aunt) may change the figures. https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/30/politics/900-children-separated-border/index.html Seeing as how the administration keeps losing in court, I'm not too sure anyone should trust their word.

2. Cite your source for trafficking on the southern border. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/05/13/rapid-dna-promises-identify-fake-families-border-it-wont/

3. Ridiculous. They chose not to staff up. These are choices, not inevitable problems. The Obama administration also saw a huge influx. We did not see these massive numbers of separations.

4. Exactly what reporting is untrue? The kids crying or the parents being locked up?

5. Not under this administration.

6. SEARCH WARRANTS. Gather the paper records and interview the workers. Not that hard.

7. This has been tried. It was ineffective and unable to respond to the ebs and flows of farm work.

 

 

Edited by Sneezyone
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Pretty hard to interview workers when they run away as soon as they think an immigration official is around.  That's the whole reason it is so easy to abuse these workers.

Expanding work visas would take away the disincentive to report these employers.  Which would solve a lot of the problem right there.

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56 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Refugee is a legal designation that, AFAIK, most people crossing from Mexico do not have.

I wouldn't risk my daughter (or sons) being trafficked by goodness knows who. I just couldn't do it. Knowing what I know about what it takes to come across the southern border of this country illegally I would not put my family in that position. It would be deliberately traumatizing them, possibly killing them. I agree they don't do it for fun, but if I were at risk of literally dying in my home country, I can't see how risking detention at best, death or slavery at worst, is the responsible choice as a parent. Especially when there are legal ways to seek asylum from any number of countries that would not involve something so absolutely, horrifically risky and traumatizing for my children. And if I did risk it, I absolutely would not put the responsibility for that choice onto someone else.

My heart breaks for the children who have no choice in their parents taking them on this trip. I donate what I can to help them when they get here, but it's probably a pittance compared to what they need. I have to think the parents must not know how risky it really is or what the risks really are or they wouldn't do it...because the chances of it not being a better life are super, super high.

Most are not legally defined refugees, but they are asylum seekers, and they have a legal right to seek asylum in the US under international and US law.

I have spent a great deal of time with people in this very situation, who have decided to pick up their children and flee, again and again, from different countries.  Every single week at church I teach two little boys whose parents decided to do just that because their own country was literally not safe.  The father of one of those boys was a refugee himself when he was a boy, and in spite of his harrowing memories of fleeing with his grandmother and not seeing his mother for years, he still left home as a father with the part of his family he could get out. He knew exactly what he was getting into.  And even though his life is very difficult now, his children are safe.

These stories aren’t from Central America, since I don’t live in that part of the world right now, but I heard these kinds of stories when I did live there.

I will never, ever criticize a parent for picking their children up and getting out.  Even if what they’re running toward is dangerous and difficult.  Because only they know what they actually left behind.

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4 minutes ago, SKL said:

Pretty hard to interview workers when they run away as soon as they think an immigration official is around.  That's the whole reason it is so easy to abuse these workers.

Expanding work visas would take away the disincentive to report these employers.  Which would solve a lot of the problem right there.

 

OK...which Congressional reps are going to make that happen? Seems to me they all take $$$ from commercial farmers who profit from the status quo. Our Congress is capable of NOTHING right now.

https://modernfarmer.com/2019/08/will-the-new-agriculture-immigration-rules-help-either-farmers-or-farmworkers/

https://newfoodeconomy.org/h-2a-visa-program-temporary-foreign-guest-worker-labor-department-proposal/

https://www.mitchellrepublic.com/business/agriculture/4472816-Farmers-Migrant-labor-programs-need-to-be-fixed

https://civileats.com/2019/07/16/the-h-2a-guest-worker-program-has-ballooned-in-size-but-both-farmers-and-workers-want-it-fixed/

Edited by Sneezyone
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6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

6. SEARCH WARRANTS. Gather the paper records and interview the workers. Not that hard.

7. This has been tried. It was ineffective and unable to respond to the ebs and flows of farm work.

 

 

 

I'll add to this:

6. Undercover work.

7. It is a fact that there is no interest from the perspective of our law makers in increasing legal immigration, for the purposes of temporary work or otherwise. Visa approvals are down and the administration is seeking to suspend the refugee program altogether next year. I am not stating political opinion, I am stating fact.

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Well folks, I'm bowing out because this is going the predictable way.

I will say I am super glad (and not surprised) to hear that all the kids were reunited with their families quickly, and also that a sweatshop will hopefully be either reformed or shut down.

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18 minutes ago, Amira said:

Most are not legally defined refugees, but they are asylum seekers, and they have a legal right to seek asylum in the US under international and US law.

Yes, if they enter or do so via a legal port of entry (according to US law).

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