Math help...again :(

[mmasc]

I need math advice again.😞 I posted a while back about long division, but now my question is this:

is there any place where I can see what’s ‘normal’ or standard for each grade level?

here’s my why: I don’t care about grade levels, but I’m having a hard time with Math U See in knowing when to just move on because something isn’t needed RIGHT NOW. for example, ds is still working on /struggling through division with remembering the steps. So, we haven’t even gotten to two-digit divisors yet, (we’ve stalled on remainders in the tens combined with ones), ex. 76 divided by 4. But I looked ahead and in lesson 25 for example, it’s

59,038 divided by 56 😵 

is he really supposed to learn this before he learns basic fractions??? (The next book)  I mean, he’s had no fraction instruction at all and we’ll stall out on division until he’s 20 at this rate!

i don’t want to curriculum hop but I just don’t know if this is right or not for him. He needs lots of steady practice on a topic, and white space. But some of it just seems too much (above example)  plus he needs MUCH more review than MUS gives or he forgets.

I’m sad, and just want to help him. We’re currently just working through the Math mammoth division book bc MUS mixed some things together that he wasn’t ready for yet. I’m even looking at Saxon as a totally different approach, but I think that busyness and amount on a page would make him pass out!

thanks for listening and offering any info you have. Or just encouragement. 

[PeterPan]

Ok, so I think you should DEFINITELY start doing some fractions IMMEDIATELY, because the dc deserves success. Two, maybe you need a fresh take on multiplication/division. Have you looked at Ronit Bird? She approaches multiplication as scaling, making division natural. 

If you want to see standards for a grade level, you can go to BJUPressHomeschool.com and pull up their scope & sequence. Also you can pull up the state standards for your state. Teacher Created Resources and other places have basic outlines of common core expectations for every grade. Yes, he should be doing fractions. I do them concurrently with our other work, because fractions actually go pretty well for my ds. 

[mmasc]

@PeterPan thank you for chiming in. I was hoping (and knew!) you would bc you always offer advice and help, so THANK YOU! He’s finally got multiplication down (can do 3-digit by 3-digit), so should I still use Ronit Bird? I have looked at it before, but honestly is seems confusing to me???Maybe bc there aren’t many examples??? I don’t know...

Should I move on to MUS fractions book, or maybe just Key To Fractions? Or just switch to something else? I can’t use BJU bc his younger brother is using it and will pass him in the not too far future, so I need to keep him in something else altogether. 

[PeterPan]

I didn't realize he was doing so well on the multiplication! No, it sounds like Ronit Bird isn't a fit for you.

I haven't done MUS fractions, but if overall MUS works it would be a logical step. I haven't used Keys to. Maybe look at online samples and go with your gut? Probably both are fine. I'm just saying I started fractions work with my ds because they're foundational, a life skill, pervasive (showing up everywhere), and are something that can work even when computation isn't working. Given how well he's doing with multiplication, he should do great with fractions! I think you can start the fractions and keep his division work slowly going, sure, absolutely. 

[1shortmomto4]

Just a question here - has this child had a dx of dyscalcula or a math-related LD?  If so or frankly will have one down the line, then move on to fractions and get out the calculator.  Yes, we should be able to do this, etc. but a person with a math LD may not but yet is understanding everything else.  Yes, you could on the side use some Key to books or math mammoth worksheets as a review perhaps but I'd move on and let some time pass and allow perhaps some of this information to process in his brain and not get bogged down in failure. If you practice/review the skills allow him the use of that calculator.  It is kind of like expecting a person who struggles with dyslexia to be an excellent speller - sometimes you just need to rely on the spellchecker on the tool you are utilizing at the time.  If you've had success with MUS up until now I'd be very cautious in trying something else.  There are things you can do like using graph paper, playing games (maybe check out Right Start and the level they teach division and see if anything sticks out that might work).  I remember that level and it bogs down for kids who struggle but over time they do gain the division concepts.

[Pen]

We often started the easy part of a new MUS while still working on the ends of a prior one.

[mmasc]

54 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I didn't realize he was doing so well on the multiplication! No, it sounds like Ronit Bird isn't a fit for you.

I haven't done MUS fractions, but if overall MUS works it would be a logical step. I haven't used Keys to. Maybe look at online samples and go with your gut? Probably both are fine. I'm just saying I started fractions work with my ds because they're foundational, a life skill, pervasive (showing up everywhere), and are something that can work even when computation isn't working. Given how well he's doing with multiplication, he should do great with fractions! I think you can start the fractions and keep his division work slowly going, sure, absolutely. 

I needed to hear this. Very encouraging. THANK YOU!

[mmasc]

47 minutes ago, 1shortmomto4 said:

Just a question here - has this child had a dx of dyscalcula or a math-related LD?  If so or frankly will have one down the line, then move on to fractions and get out the calculator.  Yes, we should be able to do this, etc. but a person with a math LD may not but yet is understanding everything else.  Yes, you could on the side use some Key to books or math mammoth worksheets as a review perhaps but I'd move on and let some time pass and allow perhaps some of this information to process in his brain and not get bogged down in failure. If you practice/review the skills allow him the use of that calculator.  It is kind of like expecting a person who struggles with dyslexia to be an excellent speller - sometimes you just need to rely on the spellchecker on the tool you are utilizing at the time.  If you've had success with MUS up until now I'd be very cautious in trying something else.  There are things you can do like using graph paper, playing games (maybe check out Right Start and the level they teach division and see if anything sticks out that might work).  I remember that level and it bogs down for kids who struggle but over time they do gain the division concepts.

No to dx, but yes to possibly in the future. 

Good advice...thank you!

[Heathermomster]

My son is diagnosed with dyscalculia and  used the MUS fractions (Gamma?).  Skip the first couple of units in MUS.  Demme starts off by teaching shortcuts which are confusing and unnecessary.  BTW, my son mastered fractions while taking chemistry in 10th grade.  

Consider purchasing a TI-15 calculator.

[mmasc]

53 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

My son is diagnosed with dyscalculia and  used the MUS fractions (Gamma?).  Skip the first couple of units in MUS.  Demme starts off by teaching shortcuts which are confusing and unnecessary.  BTW, my son mastered fractions while taking chemistry in 10th grade.  

Consider purchasing a TI-15 calculator.

Just to clarify...do you mean skip the first couple of lessons in the fractions book? (I think it’s Epsilon). 

My son actually thinks everything Demme does is confusing, so I’ve been teaching the lessons. We’ve also not used many of the methods (multiplication and division has been confusing to him the MUS way). The only reason it *does* work is the white space, short-ish lessons, and time on one thing to practice/learn. I have to add review or he forgets. 

Just out of curiosity...did you use just MUS fractions, or all of the levels? Did you have another curriculum that worked for you?

[Heathermomster]

37 minutes ago, mmasc said:

Just to clarify...do you mean skip the first couple of lessons in the fractions book? (I think it’s Epsilon). 

My son actually thinks everything Demme does is confusing, so I’ve been teaching the lessons. We’ve also not used many of the methods (multiplication and division has been confusing to him the MUS way). The only reason it *does* work is the white space, short-ish lessons, and time on one thing to practice/learn. I have to add review or he forgets. 

Just out of curiosity...did you use just MUS fractions, or all of the levels? Did you have another curriculum that worked for you?

Yes...skip the early lessons in the epsilon aka fractions. My MUS materials are boxed up in storage so I can’t be more specific.  I own fractions through Alg 2 MUS.  DS completed the fractions, geometry, and Alg 2.  I used the MUS worksheets as practice math problems.

I’m a BSEE, and I love math.  I read Sousa’s How the Brain Learns Mathematics, Ronit Bird, some Cuisenaire materials, and James Tanton to help me understand DS and apply the methodology across math lessons. Using manipulatives, math mnemonics, Khan Academy, pictures, and standard classroom textbooks for scope and sequence, I sat by my son’s side and taught him everyday until he graduated high school.  I never found anything that worked so I improvised.  

We problem solved together using two white boards.  One was for him and the other was for me.  We compared answers and I corrected as we went along.  I rewrote many problems for DS on clean sheets of paper to reduce clutter and create white space. We set a timer and worked until it went off.  I made every attempt to only review one concept at time.

[mmasc]

19 minutes ago, Heathermomster said:

Yes...skip the early lessons in the epsilon aka fractions. My MUS materials are boxed up in storage so I can’t be more specific.  I own fractions through Alg 2 MUS.  DS completed the fractions, geometry, and Alg 2.  I used the MUS worksheets as practice math problems.

I’m a BSEE, and I love math.  I read Sousa’s How the Brain Learns Mathematics, Ronit Bird, some Cuisenaire materials, and James Tanton to help me understand DS and apply the methodology across math lessons. Using manipulatives, math mnemonics, Khan Academy, pictures, and standard classroom textbooks for scope and sequence, I sat by my son’s side and taught him everyday until he graduated high school.  I never found anything that worked so I improvised.  

We problem solved together using two white boards.  One was for him and the other was for me.  We compared answers and I corrected as we went along.  I rewrote many problems for DS on clean sheets of paper to reduce clutter and create white space. We set a timer and worked until it went off.  I made every attempt to only review one concept at time.

Very helpful...thank you! I just put How the Brain Learns Math in my Amazon cart. I think I needed to hear that I can’t find a ‘curriculum’ that will work by doing one lesson a day. We need to tweak and do whatever works.  I already do most problems on the white board bc he prefers that, even with white space on a sheet. He also doesn’t like the grid/columns, so I rewrite those.  Reviewing one topic at a time is helpful info too. I think I will go ahead and get the MUS Fractions and just keep doing division as well. 

My degree is in accounting and I love math too, but I like structure. I think reading these resources will be helpful for me to think outside the box (which is NOT a strength for me!). 

[Heathermomster]

I tried to keep the lessons short, so maybe 20 minutes.  We slowly worked over a longer period of time during high school.   I also tried not to introduce stressors.  When DS answered incorrectly, which was often, I just reviewed with him.  Eventually he would solve the problems, but it took awhile.  

By the time DS was in 6th grade, I handed him a laminated multiplication chart.  He knew his times tables; however, he has a compromised processing speed and is dysgraphic so he would start making careless errors.  

I found the back half of RB’s Overcoming Difficulties book to be the most helpful.  By then DS knew his math facts to 20 backwards and forwards.  The front of the RB book addresses all of the pre-skills necessary to learn multiplication tables.   RB teaches mental bridging, which we did on paper, lattice math, partial quotients, area model, and partial products but no fractions.  I’ve had moms on the general boards call lattice multiplication a party trick.  Don’t listen to that.  At the end of the day, the question should be, “Did my student get the correct answer?”  

Once the answer is yes and the method is reliable, move on.  Through a np evaluation, I knew that my DS tests gifted with perceptual reasoning and verb comprehension.  I used that knowledge to choose modalities that suited him.  Understanding how the compromised working memory and processing speed affected him, enabled me to better teach.  RB hit all those points for us.

I’m fortunate that we were able to push forward with math.  If we had come to a perfect standstill by 8th grade, the focus would have shifted to Touch Math and being functional.  By wearing an analog/digital watch combo, he learned to tell time.  By about 8th grade, he began understanding money.  As a man-child attending uni, we picked a degree and college with minimal math requirements.  Son tested high enough on the ACT to bypass algebra and tested into Finite Math, which is set theory, logic, Venn diagrams, matrices, and statistics.  He earned an A and selected college level Biology w/lab and Earth Science w/lab.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Heathermomster

[Pen]

Consider Khanacademy videos if Demme is making it confusing.  Great Courses also has s basic math set which you might be able to check out from

library and see if it better fits his learning style.  I’m not sure if Alcumus videos go down to fractions level, but if they do, you might want to look at them too.  Standard Deviants also has math videos—I find them overly “busy” but maybe they’d help.

[Heathermomster]

I was looking at Hands On Equations and discovered that they sell Fractions materials.  Maybe check it out.

 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Heathermomster said:

I was looking at Hands On Equations and discovered that they sell Fractions materials.  Maybe check it out.

 

Yup, I've been using them with ds. They're only so-so. They're fine, just not earth shattering. We were doing a different, Didax workbook as well and it was similar but more interesting. 

Really, the Right Start fractions puzzle someone mentioned gave us a lot of mileage. They're finally making it again. We use it with just a simple war game, but if you play that daily for a couple months the dc gets to more complex skills (equivalent fractions, comparing, subtracting, etc.).