Would you consider this racist?

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

It's hard to read a statement like the one given in the OP as anything other than "I don't feel like it's America if there aren't enough white people" - and I think you have to twist those words into a pretzel to not conclude that, on some level, the speaker doesn't think that non-whites are the same sort of citizen as whites.

This isn't some vague thing like how you were sitting in the car.

I didn’t get that at all.  I immediately thought and still do think, that he was associating the situation with what he knew....his experience on vacation in Jamaica.  

And  you totally dismissed @SereneHome’s point about using caution when assuming we know what others are thinking.

 

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Some people indicated that they would ask clarifying questions or make statements that might draw the speaker into the open WRT his/her intentions (and make clear their own). There were others who said they would interpret the comments, as issued, as an attempt to find common ground with a like-minded individual. Still others felt the COMMENTS were racist on their face regardless of intent. At the risk of offending, the discussion has actually been far more nuanced than offensive language is a civilization-destroying myth and  we should all hide from the world in some proverbial cave lest we give offense.

Don’t worry.  I am not offended.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Based on my experience the chances that someone like this went on vacation and chose a resort in Jamaica with no white people is not high.

Someone like this? You know next to nothing about him. The OP repeated a few sentences he  said to her.  

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Some people indicated that they would ask clarifying questions or make statements that might draw the speaker into the open WRT his/her intentions (and make clear their own). There were others who said they would interpret the comments, as issued, as an attempt to find common ground with a like-minded individual. Still others felt the COMMENTS were racist on their face regardless of intent. At the risk of offending, the discussion has actually been far more nuanced than offensive language is a civilization-destroying myth and  we should all hide from the world in some proverbial cave lest we give offense.

to the first bolded - I have to tell you - and may be I just feel old and tired in general or may be bc I am so tired of people making assumptions about my own words- but doing that sounds exhausting to me.  Unless it's very obvious, I prefer to give people benefit of the doubt on their intentions and move on with my day. 

To the second bolded - if you mean offending me, personally, that would be pretty hard to do. May be bc I've heard plenty of insults thrown at me through out my life, may be bc words of people who don't matter, just don't offend me, may be bc I find it just as exhausting to get offended at most things.

 

 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SereneHome said:

to the first bolded - I have to tell you - and may be I just feel old and tired in general or may be bc I am so tired of people making assumptions about my own words- but doing that sounds exhausting to me.  Unless it's very obvious, I prefer to give people benefit of the doubt on their intentions and move on with my day. 

To the second bolded - if you mean offending me, personally, that would be pretty hard to do. May be bc I've heard plenty of insults thrown at me through out my life, may be bc words of people who don't matter, just don't offend me, may be bc I find it just as exhausting to get offended at most things.

 

If you think talking and thinking about these things in real time is exhausting, imagine what it's like to be on the receiving end of poorly chosen words and bad intentions. I, personally, need to know who I'm dealing with and what kind of people they are so that I can patronize establishments and associate with people that do not pose a threat to me. Others, I keep at arms length.

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

 

If you think talking and thinking about these things in real time is exhausting, imagine what it's like to be on the receiving end of poorly chosen words and bad intentions. I, personally, need to know who I'm dealing with and what kind of people they are so that I can patronize establishments and associate with people that do not pose a threat to me. Others, I keep at arms length.

I don't need to.  I've been there more times than I care to think about and not just words, but actions as well. And I understand where  you are coming from. And sure, a simple "hey, what do you mean by that?" is easy enough. But it seems we moved on to talking about general intent of people's words and yes, I do find it exhausting to second guess and constantly wonder and mistrust everything people say.

 

[Sneezyone]

25 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I don't need to.  I've been there more times than I care to think about and not just words, but actions as well. And I understand where  you are coming from. And sure, a simple "hey, what do you mean by that?" is easy enough. But it seems we moved on to talking about general intent of people's words and yes, I do find it exhausting to second guess and constantly wonder and mistrust everything people say.

 

Agreed. I need more than a single statement to toss someone onto my mental trash heap. For the most part, I really don't care what someone means/intends when they say these types of things. Asking clarifying questions just allows me to assess my exposure to risk and learn whether they have any sense of my discomfort. People of good will show themselves. Those that aren't do too. Not engaging at all tho feels more risky to/for me than blissful ignorance.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

48 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Don’t worry.  I am not offended.  

 

I said it the way I did for a reason. You're probably not the only person who feels that concerning themselves with these matters is not worth the effort.

[historically accurate]

7 hours ago, SereneHome said:

to the first bolded - I have to tell you - and may be I just feel old and tired in general or may be bc I am so tired of people making assumptions about my own words- but doing that sounds exhausting to me.  Unless it's very obvious, I prefer to give people benefit of the doubt on their intentions and move on with my day. 

To the second bolded - if you mean offending me, personally, that would be pretty hard to do. May be bc I've heard plenty of insults thrown at me through out my life, may be bc words of people who don't matter, just don't offend me, may be bc I find it just as exhausting to get offended at most things.

 

 

Some fairly logical questions to follow up the comment would be, " Have you been to Jamaica?" "What resort did you stay at? Do you recommend it?" "What was the best beach there?" I'm pretty socially awkward, so I totally understand foot in mouth disease. As such, I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but no one is talking about grilling him about systemic and blatant racism I don't think. I think since he brought up Jamaica, I'd probably talk about Jamaica. If it turned out he'd never been to Jamaica, then I'd probably feel somewhat differently about him than if he said it was the best trip of his life, and he enthusiastically tells me how much he learned so much about the culture, the people, the flora, the fauna, and he and his wife were planning on returning in 6 months. 

[Farrar]

9 hours ago, SereneHome said:

At the risk  of offending some or many of you, I find it quite interesting that people who claim to be sensitive to the feelings of others and not wanting to offend anyone with their speech  seem to assume the worst and read way too much into comments of people around them.  How does it work exactly?

It reminds me of a completely unrelated story from years ago.  I was on a date, we were in a car and they guy was driving.  I crossed my legs, my left leg over my right one, so kind of away from him. When we got out of the car he made a comment that it doesn't seem like I was too much into him based on how I was sitting (evidently he considered himself a body language expert). I told him that I was very much into him and thus sat in a way that made my legs look better and more attractive. But since he seem to read me so well, he doesn't really need me around, he can do it all on his own.

I think it's quite bold of people to think that their assumptions and presumptions of others - their thought process, their actions are that accurate.

Do you understand what some of us are saying about how the focus needs to shift from intent to effect? 

I don’t presume to know this man’s thought process. I also repeatedly said that he’s probably not intentionally being racist. I doubt he’s a “bad guy” - I definitely give him, and most people who make these sorts of cringey racist comments occasionally the benefit of the doubt to what’s in their heart.

But that doesn’t mean he gets a pass and no one can point it out. Ideally someone would just say something in that moment.

I think we all need to just get more comfortable with having our racism called out. I’m sure I’ve said something on the level of this guy in my life. Something thoughtless or uninformed. We are all living in a racist society where racism is deeply normalized by the messages we get at every level. Of course good people in a society like this will say and do things they don’t intend as racist but which offend or have racist effects. If we’re ever going to fix it, we have to be willing to listen and not freak out when we misstep.

Getting our behavior or words called racist does not have to be taken as a massive insult or a condemnation of our intentions or other efforts. We just listen and try to do better.

[Pam in CT]

The word "intent" is related to the word "intention."  

Intent is not, solely, backward looking, what was in my head in a given moment in the past.  Intent is also forward looking, what I intend to do the next time around. There will, always, be a next time around. 

8 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

... People of good will show themselves. Those that aren't do too. Not engaging at all tho feels more risky to/for me than blissful ignorance.

That is it.

None of us can see what was in anyone else's heart at a given moment in the PAST.

We can see what happens next.  

 

If it looks something like this:

1 hour ago, beckyjo said:

Some fairly logical questions to follow up the comment would be, " Have you been to Jamaica?" "What resort did you stay at? Do you recommend it?" "What was the best beach there?"

....no one is talking about grilling him about systemic and blatant racism I don't think. I think since he brought up Jamaica, I'd probably talk about Jamaica. If it turned out he'd never been to Jamaica, then I'd probably feel somewhat differently about him than if he said it was the best trip of his life, and he enthusiastically tells me how much he learned so much about the culture, the people, the flora, the fauna, and he and his wife were planning on returning in 6 months. 

... that's data.

 

If it looks like this:

39 minutes ago, Farrar said:

...I think we all need to just get more comfortable with having our racism called out. I’m sure I’ve said something on the level of this guy in my life. Something thoughtless or uninformed. We are all living in a racist society where racism is deeply normalized by the messages we get at every level. Of course good people in a society like this will say and do things they don’t intend as racist but which offend or have racist effects. If we’re ever going to fix it, we have to be willing to listen and not freak out when we misstep.

Getting our behavior or words called racist does not have to be taken as a massive insult or a condemnation of our intentions or other efforts. We just listen and try to do better.

... that's data.

 

And if it looks like a righteous insistence that I can use whatever language I'm used to, or

It's too exhausting to think about how my words affect others, or

How dare you suggest I'm racist, when I don't have a racist bone in my body!, or

You know who's racist? People who insist on talking about race, that's who!

... that, too, is data.

[catz]

9 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I didn’t get that at all.  I immediately thought and still do think, that he was associating the situation with what he knew....his experience on vacation in Jamaica.  

And  you totally dismissed @SereneHome’s point about using caution when assuming we know what others are thinking.

 

But you are also ASSUMING Jamaica is a positive reference.  One person's interpretation of this is not more valid than another person's.  And imagine day after day you are getting that kind of general tone you are an outsider "you belong elsewhere" "what country are you from" when you are a born and bred American.   That also could also become exhausting.  

This guy may have meant no harm and thought it was a positive or neutral thing to say.  It a chiro said this to me in a clinical setting during chit chat at a minimum I would think he was naive and at worst trolling to see if he you were "one of him". 

Do many of you regularly get verbally tongue lashed in public over stuff like this?  I think an extremely small percentage of stuff gets even talked about.  Let alone addressed directly.  

[Lanny]

No. I do not consider that to be racist. I consider that he made an observation and that he was surprised.

[TravelingChris]

On 8/1/2019 at 6:37 PM, Bluegoat said:

 

Because focusing on whatever language is trendy at the moment, to show you think the right way, is a great way to create social problems, and it creates a kind of very negative social hierarchy that is in no way an antedote to bigotry.  Quite the opposite.  Often changes don't actually reflect any specific reasoning, it's more fashion or a vague association with old-fashioned ideas.

And its impossible for people.  They can't keep up. Many people who are elderly don't always find it easy to even be sure what the right words are, not to mention changing their usage which is more difficult when you are older.  Their friends are of their generation and also don't use the newer words, they can't hear well, they may not get out often.  Elderly people speak in ways that are old-fashioned in many ways, just like young people speak in the most up to date ways and are ignorant of expressions that have fallen out of use.  For that matter, some of the words you mention are used  by elderly members of those communities about themselves - negro and Indian particularly.

Part of respect for elders is understanding they don't have the same experience you have, and that includes recognising that there is a difference between offensive language, and old-fashioned or archaic language.

 

 

 

I am not elderly.  I am 56.  But I regularly start crying because my family cannot understand what I am saying.  My daughter keeps thinking I am aggressive when I have to speak more forcefully than usually because she has moved home after graduation and brought her cat.  I didn't know that I had developed a cat allergy and my asthma has been awful.  When I am short of breath, like I am a lot because my asthma isn't well controlled- I speak more forcefully because it is hard to speak and breath.

As to all of you who are so knowledgeable about elderly and brain changes------it is now well known that dementia is occuring much, much earlier than formerly recognized.  Some studies suggest that changes are occuring in early adulthood and by middle age, there are definite changes.

As a person who had a concussion in 2014 and has brain fog a lot, especially in the evening when I am more tired,  I do have a lot of trouble communicating.  I have aphasia at times.  SO do a lot of people, people who aren't even diagnosed at all. 

That does not mean that people with brain problems of any kind can't be mean and malicious bastards.  But for anyone having communication issues of any kind, including aphasia, it is unkindness to expect them to keep changing terminology.  So yes, they will say incorrect stuff- I sometimes say Amerind but at night, when my brain is barely working, I probably would say Indian.  And that causes huge problems in my family-like last night when my husband thought I was interrogating him when I was just trying to find out if my assumption that he was staying in base lodging on his next business trip considering his trip itinerary from the travel agent didn't have a hotel listed.   He didn't understand why I was looking at the itinerary because his plane hadn't crashed while I always look to check weather for him (and he does ask right before the trip), airport delays, know how hard of a trip it will be, etc, etc.  And I know he isn't thinking too well either since he has sleep apnea, and needs a new appliance because his old one has worn down.  So I understand how come he is cranky but it still hurts.

[SereneHome]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Do you understand what some of us are saying about how the focus needs to shift from intent to effect? 

I don’t presume to know this man’s thought process. I also repeatedly said that he’s probably not intentionally being racist. I doubt he’s a “bad guy” - I definitely give him, and most people who make these sorts of cringey racist comments occasionally the benefit of the doubt to what’s in their heart.

But that doesn’t mean he gets a pass and no one can point it out. Ideally someone would just say something in that moment.

I think we all need to just get more comfortable with having our racism called out. I’m sure I’ve said something on the level of this guy in my life. Something thoughtless or uninformed. We are all living in a racist society where racism is deeply normalized by the messages we get at every level. Of course good people in a society like this will say and do things they don’t intend as racist but which offend or have racist effects. If we’re ever going to fix it, we have to be willing to listen and not freak out when we misstep.

Getting our behavior or words called racist does not have to be taken as a massive insult or a condemnation of our intentions or other efforts. We just listen and try to do better.

Oh I understand.

But do you understand that effect is quite subjective and varies greatly from person to person. Even in this thread, which is a very very small sample of the population. And while you claim  you are not saying he is a "bad guy", you are saying "I don't trust you not to be a racist, you have to prove it to me by answering my follow-up questions". And it seems we are doing that more and more with people. We don't come from a place of benefit of the doubt. We come from a place of suspicion. 

 

 

 

 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

The word "intent" is related to the word "intention."  

Intent is not, solely, backward looking, what was in my head in a given moment in the past.  Intent is also forward looking, what I intend to do the next time around. There will, always, be a next time around. 

That is it.

None of us can see what was in anyone else's heart at a given moment in the PAST.

We can see what happens next.  

 

If it looks something like this:

... that's data.

 

If it looks like this:

... that's data.

 

And if it looks like a righteous insistence that I can use whatever language I'm used to, or

It's too exhausting to think about how my words affect others, or

How dare you suggest I'm racist, when I don't have a racist bone in my body!, or

You know who's racist? People who insist on talking about race, that's who!

... that, too, is data.

I don’t mind thinking.  I think a lot.  And what I have come up with is this is a problem that humans can’t solve overall.  So I choose to do my very best to be as kind as I possibly can to everyone.  When talking to strangers I stick to topics that usually can’t be controversial.  Aren’t the flowers beautiful this year? What a sweet dog you have! Have a good day.  Be careful of the heat.  Or I listen to them talk.  People are very interesting and I learn a lot of cool things.  And one thing I have learned is there is no way to say the right thing all of the time.  So I give myself and others a break on that concept.  

[Sneezyone]

28 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Oh I understand.

But do you understand that effect is quite subjective and varies greatly from person to person. Even in this thread, which is a very very small sample of the population. And while you claim  you are not saying he is a "bad guy", you are saying "I don't trust you not to be a racist, you have to prove it to me by answering my follow-up questions". And it seems we are doing that more and more with people. We don't come from a place of benefit of the doubt. We come from a place of suspicion. 

 

Well, yeah! Have you been outside lately? Taken the proverbial temperature? Statistics show that a huge proportion of some groups of people harbor racist sentiments. People are being physically, not just verbally, attacked, shot and killed by people who express these sentiments. You'd have to be an idiot to be part of a marginalized group and not be somewhat wary. At least asking questions gives the speaker an opportunity to clarify/show themselves for who they are and what they think.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

But you are also ASSUMING Jamaica is a positive reference.  One person's interpretation of this is not more valid than another person's.  And imagine day after day you are getting that kind of general tone you are an outsider "you belong elsewhere" "what country are you from" when you are a born and bred American.   That also could also become exhausting.  

This guy may have meant no harm and thought it was a positive or neutral thing to say.  It a chiro said this to me in a clinical setting during chit chat at a minimum I would think he was naive and at worst trolling to see if he you were "one of him". 

Do many of you regularly get verbally tongue lashed in public over stuff like this?  I think an extremely small percentage of stuff gets even talked about.  Let alone addressed directly.  

True.  I prefer to assume the best in people. 

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

True.  I prefer to assume the best in people. 

 

At some point, this becomes a foolish, naive position. I don't know where that point is for any given person but we can all read Anne Frank's Diary and mourn her naivete. We can read any number of accounts of persecution and find people who took this position and perished. It is truly a luxury to maintain a rose-colored outlook about human nature and the use of language to inspire bad things. I'm not picking on you, I'm just trying to point out that this isn't just an unpleasant background noise for many people. I think of the Rohingya and the Kurds and the Tutsis...so many others. 

ETA: I don't think caring about or paying attention to these issues makes one a better person. I do think it makes one a more informed/aware citizen and voter. There are actual historical events we can learn from WRT nationalist demagoguery and racism.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[maize]

I've been thinking about this post. I don't think jumping to black-or-white judgment is useful--a situation like this seems ambiguous to me. In the context of chiropractor chit-chat I think that either letting it go or interrogating for clarification is reasonable.

I remember once finding myself in an unfamiliar part of Los Angeles and noticing that I was the only white person; I felt uncomfortable and a little anxious--both very normal reactions to feeling like an obvious outsider. Experiencing that doesn't make me a racist; telling a friend about my experience and the way I felt wouldn't make me a racist either. I can even imagine telling a random stranger I struck up a conversation with if I were still processing the experience--I have a bad habit of oversharing at times.

If I stated or implied other things--all those black people were probably waiting for a chance to rob me, or I can't believe what this city is coming to with all the minorities taking over--that would be a clear sign of racism.

Edited August 3, 2019 by maize

[Janeway]

Racist is to prejudge someone or a situation based on race. It sounds like he made an observation, not a racist remark.

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, SereneHome said:

Oh I understand.

But do you understand that effect is quite subjective and varies greatly from person to person. Even in this thread, which is a very very small sample of the population. And while you claim  you are not saying he is a "bad guy", you are saying "I don't trust you not to be a racist, you have to prove it to me by answering my follow-up questions". And it seems we are doing that more and more with people. We don't come from a place of benefit of the doubt. We come from a place of suspicion. 

 

Of course it's subjective. What does that have to do with the fact that some people are offended? Or that some people are hurt? Like, this black guy is okay with the comment, therefore no black folks can be hurt by it and you don't have to rethink it? I'm not down with that logic.

And yes, I do not trust anyone to not display internal bias. I don't trust myself to either. Because that's what systemic racism does to a society - it makes it so that all of us say and do things racist things without even realizing we're doing them.

It's not about benefit of the doubt. We can look at this comment and say that some people would be offended by it and dissect the things it implies about America - lots of people have done that. That's just there whether he meant it or not. The benefit of the doubt is that I'm going to assume he didn't *mean* for it to imply those things or potentially offend anyone. And then if that's true, when told, hey, that's a bit offensive because... then he'll say oh, oops, I really didn't mean that. I meant this, but maybe I should think about it. Not, how very dare you question me!

If someone with heavy boots steps on your foot and doesn't realize it and you say, hey, you're on my foot, then it doesn't really matter if they *meant* to step on your foot. If they refuse to move, that says everything. On the other hand, if they move and say, oops, sorry, then that also says everything. Saying, "Hey, you're on my foot," is not suspicion or not giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Pointing out the problem is not the problem.

[TravelingChris]

The Jamaica comment is kind of over the top for me. Living in the South but in a city full of people from everywhere, I have noticed a pattern of subtle racist attitudes from a few people.  Usually it is comments about not going to certain areas or cities because of it being a dominant minority area.  My son in law comes from a background of such racists that my daughter is seriously considering not having any kids because she does not want to ever have them interacting with those characters--- I mean overt racism like one of these relatives asked do you know why I have only black cows?  Because I want to own blacks.    My daughter insisted on her husband and her immediately leaving the Thanksgiving or whatever holiday it was after he made that statement.  My son in law thought most criminals were black.  I have had to educate him particularly as in my area, there are more white criminals cause my Northern part of the state has a majority white population and there is even a close by area, which I think may only have white people, which is a den of criminals.   

But as humans, we do see patterns and make generalities.  I am kind of strange because all my life I kept seeing exceptions to generalities.  For example, I never liked the racial designations because I consider them completely unscientific.  I usually put down human race on forms.  I definitely do on the census.  According to my genetics, I am 99% European and !% Asian, though about 8% is really Neathedral.  But I have two medical conditions that are most common in other populations- AA, asians, Amerinds for one, and AA for the other.  That is one big reason I hate racial designations.  It leads to medical problems.  For example, black babies normally do much better as premies than white babies.  Partially because of that generalization, less medical followup and proper care is given.  So by year one,  more black babies are dead.  We also seem to consider people AA on the basis of looks or heritage but this causes issues for mixed race kids some times.  It also causes medical issues at times because again, if someone is actually mostly non african descent and yet medical personnel are assuming they will react physically the same way as someone who is completely african descent, it can lead to very bad results.  

 

As to systemic racisms, I do not see that.  I generally see a lot of people who are economically blind as in being completely unaware how hard things are for poor people and how many of the ideas they have for whatever improvement they think can happen is totally unfeasible if someone lacks money.

[Farrar]

I've been arguing kind of strenuously about the comment in the OP, but I want to be clear that I don't think it's a "big deal" in and of itself. Or that it's horribly egregious. Like I said before, I don't think pointing out race is racist, so the first part - the I noticed we were the only white people - I think of that as just being reflective and not bad in and of itself. The Jamaica thing takes it a step further though and, like we've all been saying, implies some stuff that is founded on a lot of assumptions that are grounded in racism. But it doesn't mean he did a horrible thing. And even if the OP thought it over and decided it was a racist statement, I don't think she did anything wrong either by not saying anything. Little things like this can add up, which is why we should strive to be aware of them and to do better. But nor do I think we need to beat ourselves up about them because that's not especially productive either. I think it's more of a "let's recognize that this wasn't great" and then try to get better. Not a "this man is horrible and should be fired/boycotted/internet shamed!" kind of thing.

I think that's what people who are arguing that it's absolutely fine or too much work to think about or whatever aren't fully getting. Not everything that's racist needs to involve a massive big deal response or reckoning. But also, just because something isn't a massive big deal doesn't mean that therefore it's not racist or that we shouldn't try harder or ever call it out.

[Annetta]

Like many here, I would say it’s not racist. Also it seems to me like he didn’t have any negative intent 

[SereneHome]

I think in general words matter.  I think they matter more to some than others. Also, the exact same words, said that exactly same way can mean many different things to different people. So, the conversation in OP could have gone like this - - a guy makes a comment, OP thinks  "hmmm, that sounds like a racist  comment, let me investigate" and 10 other people wouldn't have thought anything at all, and another 10 would have thought "hmmmm....Jamaica....I need a vacation!" and another 10 would have thought "hmmm, I haven't gone for a walk on the beach with my spouse in years" and another 10 would have replied to the guy "hey, remember that movie with Michelle Pfeifer and how she was a white teacher in a black school, I wonder if she is still as gorgeous"...

But unfortunately, I think more and more people are going with option #1.  And I don't think it's helping to eradicate racism or help anyone to "do better". I think it's dividing us and making us angry at each other even more.

 

[Pam in CT]

43 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I think in general words matter.  I think they matter more to some than others. Also, the exact same words, said that exactly same way can mean many different things to different people. So, the conversation in OP could have gone like this - - a guy makes a comment, OP thinks  "hmmm, that sounds like a racist  comment, let me investigate" and 10 other people wouldn't have thought anything at all, and another 10 would have thought "hmmmm....Jamaica....I need a vacation!" and another 10 would have thought "hmmm, I haven't gone for a walk on the beach with my spouse in years" and another 10 would have replied to the guy "hey, remember that movie with Michelle Pfeifer and how she was a white teacher in a black school, I wonder if she is still as gorgeous"...

But unfortunately, I think more and more people are going with option #1.  And I don't think it's helping to eradicate racism or help anyone to "do better". I think it's dividing us and making us angry at each other even more.

 

Sure.

If you insert the words "retard" or "fat slob" the precise same logic holds.  It will be heard more acutely by some than others; some barely register it at all.  

What is different about rude race-based language, and a lot of other rude language, is what you (I think correctly) identify as "making us angry": a very large segment of white Americans has chosen to experience the slightest implication that we could do even a little bit better on racial matters, as being "smeared" as a "racist."  And further, that to be "smeared a racist" is more unforgivable than racism itself.  There's no equivalent construct for other rude labels even though they, too, are "heard" differently by different people.

To respond that way is a CHOICE.  It is a CHOICE that speaks to INTENTION about behavior going forward in time.

How we intend to behave going forward in time is data, on who we are and what our "intent" was looking back in time.  Our behavior is not a one-shot one-off event.  We live in time.  Who I am tomorrow is related to who I am today and was yesterday.  Given how many times I've screwed up in the past, I dearly hope I do better tomorrow.  The good news is: I have the chance to do better.

I am a little flummoxed by the idea that we are forever bound to keep on doing all the inadvertently dopey and insensitive stuff we've done in the past.  If it really *was* inadvertent then we are glad for our chance to do better.  Baruch hashem.  

If OTOH we don't WANT to do better... well OK, that's a choice; but that particular choice rather begs the question if it really was inadvertent in the first place, doesn't it. 

[maize]

10 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

He did state or imply other things.  He implied that the situation wasn't like America, that it was foreign.  That doesn't make him a racist but it is a racist statement.  

 

The implication would still depend on what Jamaica means in his mind. If I were walking on a beach that was flooded with people who looked Japanese and I said it felt like I was in Japan that wouldn't have any negative connotation in my mind. I lived in Japan for a time, it is a place I love and people I admire and I would be delighted to go back in spite of the fact that I could only ever be an outsider there.

Given the harsh reality of racism in the US I agree that this statement has a decent chance of having racist implications, but there is also a chance it didn't for this particular person.

Edited August 4, 2019 by maize

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, SereneHome said:

Oh I understand.

But do you understand that effect is quite subjective and varies greatly from person to person. Even in this thread, which is a very very small sample of the population. And while you claim  you are not saying he is a "bad guy", you are saying "I don't trust you not to be a racist, you have to prove it to me by answering my follow-up questions". And it seems we are doing that more and more with people. We don't come from a place of benefit of the doubt. We come from a place of suspicion. 

In America today, you can bet your tush I’m not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt when it comes to racism. (Or homophobia, or living wages, or mental health, or a bunch of other things but I’ve digressed.). This country is highly racist and people are DYING, along with all of the other evils that work up to that. Racists never say they’re racist. But if you listen carefully enough, they reveal themselves. And many times it’s absolutely shocking who they turn out to be.

[Sneezyone]

Racism and racist/coded language is like an iceberg. There's the obvious stuff that you can see and so much less noticeable, more debatable stuff beneath it, supporting it, lending tacit credibility to it. Sadly, we got another lethal example of the racism that pervades the American zeitgeist today.

[Carrie12345]

:::got real worked up, so.I took a break and cleaned my carpet:::

I don’t expect to be given the befit of the doubt, either. I’ve done nothing to be deserving of anyone’s patience with racism (and I don’t think there should be any patience with racism except *maybe when Grandma is 93 and on her way out,) and I’d rather be called out than assumed innocent when I make stupid mistakes, which I definitely do do. If someone in passing pegs me as a racist, that’s unfortunate because it might hurt them. There’s no actual damage done to me.  How crazy is that?!  And anyone I’m spending more time with will learn that I’m not soon enough. And that my foot is routinely in my mouth through all sorts of circumstances.

 

[GEMMom]

What you wrote after you described what he said seemed to make so much "logical" sense to me, but then, like you, it still didn't feel right.  It felt like making excuses, no?  The more I thought about it, I think for me it is really was about the implication that black folks aren't American.  That is especially egregious when you think of the contributions that Americans with African ancestry have and continue to make to this country, and, for so long, with no compensation and while being treated as less than human.  I think this attitude must still be with us if Americans who are black are seen as foreign invaders in American (i.e., white) space.