What is the point of AP classes?

[EKT]

I'm partly joking, of course, but I guess I'm wondering: why would I want to bother with AP classes and all the testing, etc., if my student is not guaranteed advanced placement in college at the end of it? Is it just to be a more competitive freshman applicant? (My understanding is that not all colleges accept AP classes for actual credit, or some colleges only accept a top AP test score to get out of, say, freshman English.) Wouldn't it make more sense to do DE with a community college, which (in my understanding) guarantees that your student gets the college credit? (In other words, why would I take AP English, if my student could just get her English 101 out of the way through DE?) I know I must be missing something obvious (forgive my ignorance; as I said in my last post, I'm a total newbie to the high school stuff!), but I guess I'm trying to figure out the pros and cons of AP vs. DE. What is your take? What are your kids doing? Thank you!

 

ETA: Okay, I've just learned in my other post that DE does NOT guarantee college credit 100% of the time, so now I'm even more interested to learn when and why I might opt for AP vs. DE. 

Edited July 28, 2019 by EKT

[Lori D.]

One possible reason for AP over dual enrollment: more widely accepted by more universities than credits from some community colleges -- one reason for that is the quality of community college courses can vary widely from school to school which means the quality and value of the course to be transferred and counted as part of a 4-year for university varies widely. In contrast, the AP test is a national test, so results will be consistent for universities to evaluate as to whether or not to award credit.

One possible reason for dual enrollment over AP: the 4-year university you want to attend has an articulation agreement with your local community college, and if you take specific courses at the CC, they are guaranteed to transfer and count towards the degree. Which means you can potentially take as DE up to 2 years of a 4-year degree, and shave off 2 years of time and $$ for a 4-year degree.

While you're waiting for some of the great responses I know you'll get on this question, you might enjoy reading through some past threads on this topic -- these 2more recent threads, plus several other older threads of these are linked on PAGE 2 of the big pinned thread High School Motherlode #1, at the top of the High School board:

Advanced Placement vs. Dual Enrollment (discussion of potential advantages/disadvantages of each)
AP and Dual Enrollment 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Lori D.

[MamaSprout]

One of the colleges my dd talked to specifically mentioned they prefer AP to our local dual credit option for math and science. While she might not attend there, it's good to know ahead of time.

Even so, we are going to go ahead and do biology at the local DC option this year for the lab experience. Biology is class she either won't need in college or would want to retake if she ends up in a bio-heavy major. We'll probably go for AP for all math and science after that.

[daijobu]

AP vs DE is very specific to the preference of your student as well as the preference of your college.  In addition to info from PP's I'll add:

Dd prefers to be with high school age peers, not those scary older college students!  (Ironic stated since so many high school homeschoolers take CC classes, but whatever.)  I loved not having to drive and park at CC.  She enjoyed the convenience of online AP classes.  She also enjoys taking tests and excels in them.  She'd rather study independently and take a single test, not least because it is so much less work and time than attending classes on campus some distance from home.  

We're in California, so AP exam scores of 3-5 satisfy some of our a-g requirements, and show a reasonable amount of academic achievement.   But DE does the same thing.  

I'll also add this bit.  If you want to major in CS at Stanford, they actually recommend that you take your physics classes (required of all engineering students) at the local CC!

Physics

CS majors must take both a Mechanics class (PHYSICS21, PHYSICS41, PHYSICS61) and an Electricity and Magnetism class (PHYSICS23, PHYSICS43, PHYSICS63). Mixing classes from different series is acceptable. Physics labs are not required for the CS major. In general, almost any college level, first year physics class that covers mechanics and E&M will be awarded transfer credit and count towards the physics requirement. So if you want to take physics at Foothill College, the local community college, or at home over the summer, that is usually fine. 

(Foothill the CC closest to campus.)

[GoodGrief]

There is value to going the AP route in a building-based school if one is applying to selective colleges. One of the questions on the common app is about whether the student has taken the most challenging course of study at the school.

The value for homeschoolers is less clear. AP courses with exams (and a good score on the exam) are one possible way of validating grades given by a parent. They are not the only way to achieve that end. The possibility of college credit is a bonus.

 

[Miss Tick]

We haven't had to make this decision yet, but another thing to consider is the transcript. Any college level class your student takes means the college transcript had to be included in your application. So if your dc gets stuck with a bad teacher or has a bad year for any reason, that grade will stick around. If they do poorly on an AP exam, though, you can choose not to report it.

[Momto6inIN]

We chose a combination of APs and DE for our oldest DS. He did APs in early high school because he wasn't ready maturity wise for a college campus and environment, although academically he was ready for the workload. He has always been a good test taker, so it worked well for him to self study and then prep for specific ways to answer MC questions and then write free response answers in the formulaic way that AP test graders like to see. Then senior year he was much more mature, so we had him take a DE course as a way to "ease into" a college environment. 

2nd DS didn't do any APs because he is not a good test taker and because formulaic responses are definitely not his cup of tea. So senior year he is taking a DE course to get his feet wet in a college environment.

Neither AP nor DE courses were specifically taken because they would knock out any college requirements. We just wanted to try to figure out which courses best completed their needs for high school at that particular time. However, there have been a few courses that ended up transferring and we just considered that a bonus.

[8filltheheart]

Totally student dependent. Some of my kids have DE, some have taken APs and DE, and some have done neither. My current 12th grader has done absolutely everything at home with me with the exception of German. No DE or APs. She doesn't need either one for the U she will be applying to. 

In terms of your child being a 7th grader, I can tell you that the college application scenario between 2006 when my oldest applied and 2013 when younger ds applied was completely different. The COmmon App was far more extensively used by 2013, schools changed SAt subject test requirements, Net Price Calcultors were a required thing, etc.  In 2006 essays started being offered with the ACT, then they became required, and now they are back to mostly optional. Who knows what things will look like in a few yrs.

[Penelope]

Yes, it’s very individual on your student, family situation, and area. 

Whether you have DE readily available, what admissions criteria are (some have age minimum), what  the costs are vs. self-study with AP exam or online AP class, whether your student is old enough to drive or can take public transportation and how much travel time is required.

We are using some AP because DE wasn’t as convenient an option for us, and particular AP classes seemed the best option for subjects that I didn’t feel comfortable teaching myself anymore. My student will do one DE class senior year for which there isn’t an AP equivalent. Another reason was that midway through high school, we began to figure out what sorts of colleges are on his application list, and it turned out that all of them will reliably give AP credit, but for the ones that are out of state, it is more questionable on whether the equivalent DE here would be accepted. 

 

[Mbelle]

For our area the AP classes get weighted and DE does not.  That can count very heavily against your GPA for the top 2 state flagships where avg gpa of admitted freshmen is over 4.  On the other hand DE at most of the colleges around does count towards college credit whereas AP may not.  I know at dd regional U all her DE classes counted at her college and at the state flagships should she transfer. They made her take CLEP to prove her AP course had been good enough to pass through Eng 1101 and 1102 even though she got a 4 on the AP Eng exam and an A in the class.  They sprecifically listed the AP classes that did not count towards college credit and it was quite a few and she's glad she didn't take any of those.  Therefore DS took one AP for the experience and is doing all DE his Senior year.  

[EKT]

4 hours ago, SusanC said:

We haven't had to make this decision yet, but another thing to consider is the transcript. Any college level class your student takes means the college transcript had to be included in your application. So if your dc gets stuck with a bad teacher or has a bad year for any reason, that grade will stick around. If they do poorly on an AP exam, though, you can choose not to report it.

Oh, this is so good to know! I didn't know you could NOT report an AP score. (I figured it was like a college transcript and that you had to report it.) 

[EKT]

2 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

Neither AP nor DE courses were specifically taken because they would knock out any college requirements. We just wanted to try to figure out which courses best completed their needs for high school at that particular time. However, there have been a few courses that ended up transferring and we just considered that a bonus.

Thank you for this; this seems like a good way to think about it. (That is: worrying about high school credit while in high school, and worrying about college credit later, while in college.)

I'm in no particular rush to have my students enter college with a ton of credit banked away, but at the same time, with the cost of college being what it is...it's hard not to try to get the most bang for your buck through DE credit or whatever. But your approach seems sane...taking this under advisement!

[EKT]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Totally student dependent. Some of my kids have DE, some have taken APs and DE, and some have done neither. My current 12th grader has done absolutely everything at home with me with the exception of German. No DE or APs. She doesn't need either one for the U she will be applying to. 

In terms of your child being a 7th grader, I can tell you that the college application scenario between 2006 when my oldest applied and 2013 when younger ds applied was completely different. The COmmon App was far more extensively used by 2013, schools changed SAt subject test requirements, Net Price Calcultors were a required thing, etc.  In 2006 essays started being offered with the ACT, then they became required, and now they are back to mostly optional. Who knows what things will look like in a few yrs.

It is so refreshing to hear that your current 12th grader has done everything at home with you except for German. (Sometimes it feels like in order to homeschool high school well nowadays, you have to outsource everything and take a million online courses or college courses or AP courses or whatever. I'm not opposed to any of that--I will happily seek out whatever we decide is necessary when the time comes--but as of right now, I do envision doing a lot of our high school stuff just at home, so it's encouraging to hear it can actually be done!)

And your point about the likelihood of changes is well taken!!

[EKT]

56 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Yes, it’s very individual on your student, family situation, and area. 

Whether you have DE readily available, what admissions criteria are (some have age minimum), what  the costs are vs. self-study with AP exam or online AP class, whether your student is old enough to drive or can take public transportation and how much travel time is required.

We are using some AP because DE wasn’t as convenient an option for us, and particular AP classes seemed the best option for subjects that I didn’t feel comfortable teaching myself anymore. My student will do one DE class senior year for which there isn’t an AP equivalent. Another reason was that midway through high school, we began to figure out what sorts of colleges are on his application list, and it turned out that all of them will reliably give AP credit, but for the ones that are out of state, it is more questionable on whether the equivalent DE here would be accepted. 

 

This makes perfect sense--thank you for sharing your experience!

[EKT]

40 minutes ago, Mbelle said:

For our area the AP classes get weighted and DE does not.  That can count very heavily against your GPA for the top 2 state flagships where avg gpa of admitted freshmen is over 4.  On the other hand DE at most of the colleges around does count towards college credit whereas AP may not.  I know at dd regional U all her DE classes counted at her college and at the state flagships should she transfer. They made her take CLEP to prove her AP course had been good enough to pass through Eng 1101 and 1102 even though she got a 4 on the AP Eng exam and an A in the class.  They sprecifically listed the AP classes that did not count towards college credit and it was quite a few and she's glad she didn't take any of those.  Therefore DS took one AP for the experience and is doing all DE his Senior year.  

Oh gosh, grade weighting! Haven't even begun to think about that sort of thing. Ugh. lol. 

Thank you for sharing your own situation; it's so helpful to hear others' strategies to start to make sense of everything. 

[8filltheheart]

9 minutes ago, EKT said:

It is so refreshing to hear that your current 12th grader has done everything at home with you except for German. (Sometimes it feels like in order to homeschool high school well nowadays, you have to outsource everything and take a million online courses or college courses or AP courses or whatever. I'm not opposed to any of that--I will happily seek out whatever we decide is necessary when the time comes--but as of right now, I do envision doing a lot of our high school stuff just at home, so it's encouraging to hear it can actually be done!)

And your point about the likelihood of changes is well taken!!

My current college jr did everything at home with me other than Russian, a single DE course spring semester of sr yr, and reading lit/conversing in French with a Francophone "grandma" who moved to our area and couldn't speak any English at first (she loved working with our dd who had self-taught herself to fluency in French.)  Her doing things at home (and no APs) did not hinder her college acceptances or scholarships.  She was an extremely competitive college applicant. 

[Matryoshka]

16 minutes ago, EKT said:

Oh gosh, grade weighting! Haven't even begun to think about that sort of thing. Ugh. lol. 

Thank you for sharing your own situation; it's so helpful to hear others' strategies to start to make sense of everything. 

This is another instance of 'read the fine print'.  This kind of thing is sooo variable from state to state and school to school.

Around here, both DE and AP are weighted to a 5.0 (rather than 4.0 scale), and Honors to 4.5.  I heard from a friend that lives near Houston that there they rate either DE or AP or both to a 6.0 scale (!!??).  Holy bananas.  I didn't bother weighting any of my kids' scores except the 1/3 that actually attended a brick-and-mortar for hs, so I didn't do her transcript.  

And then each school handles everything so differently.  I'm at this point most familiar with our state flagship, where 2/3 of my kids attend.  They throw out all transcript weighting and recalculate based on their own algorithm.  And really weirdly, while the accept much AP and DE, for English Comp, they will not even take a 5 on AP Lit to get out of Freshman Comp/English   - but they will take a 5 on AP Lang and DE Comp, and also will accept a good CLEP score.  Perhaps not so coincidentally, most high schools in our state offer AP Lit and have high-scoring kids, but almost no in-state schools (unlike other states) even offer AP Lang (I'd never even heard of it till I came here), and most people don't know about CLEP here.  So most in-state kids with 5s on their AP Lit exams that would get out of Comp anywhere else are stuck taking it at the flagship...

My own kids did a mix depending on their path.  My kid who went to brick-and-mortar only had APs (though she ended up CLEPing English to get out of that, since she decided not to take AP Lit senior year in favor of Calc and Physics C), her twin took a mix of AP and DE, and youngest only did DE - no AP or CLEP.

AP or CLEP, if your kid tests well, can be nice to 'prove' competency for subjects.  My kids all took German for years at a Sat. School.  My twins both took the AP in 10th; my youngest hates high-stakes tests and opted to take German 3/4 at the CC instead - which she was able to self-pace and accelerate, and get credit for both in just one semester (I had to pay for both 'classes', though...).  And yeah, one of my twins took the CLEP for English which at her school (in-state but not the flagship) got her credit for 2 semesters of Freshman English - exact same as the AP but with much less work.  She just took the test cold, 1hr later, 2 semesters credit, yay.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Matryoshka

[EKT]

3 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

My current college jr did everything at home with me other than Russian, a single DE course spring semester of sr yr, and reading lit/conversing in French with a Francophone "grandma" who moved to our area and couldn't speak any English at first (she loved working with our dd who had self-taught herself to fluency in French.)  Her doing things at home (and no APs) did not hinder her college acceptances or scholarships.  She was an extremely competitive college applicant. 

How wonderful! That is awesome and so, so encouraging to hear. (And so good to hear that you didn't feel she was hindered in any way.) 

[kokotg]

My oldest did a mix of DE and AP (all his AP was at home on our own, not outsourced), and that worked well. For high school, my strategy is to do things at home that we can do well at home and outsource the rest. My husband's a high school math teacher, so he did all math through calculus at home (DE for two post-calc courses); I have a masters in English, so we did AP lit at home and I felt pretty comfortable tackling other humanities courses with him. Science and foreign languages were my priorities for dual enrollment (although he took some other things, too). 

I learned early on in our college search that every school is different as far as what they'll accept or not for credit. Some prefer AP; our in-state publics are required to accept his DE; most selective private schools have a cap on how much credit they'll accept. So our first goal was to have him take classes wherever he would have the best experience for that particular subject and secondarily to have him end up with a transcript that showed he had challenged himself and done well and could handle college level coursework. As it turns out, he's going to a school that will give him credit for a total of 5 classes; they don't seem to care if they're AP or DE, although they'll only give him credit for DE classes that weren't used to meet high school graduation requirements. He has way more credits than he'll be able to use, but it gives him the flexibility to choose which classes will be the most helpful to use the credit for.

Re: the grades in DE; it's my understanding that they follow you forever--i.e. if you do poorly in DE classes, you'll still need to report those grades if you end up applying to grad school. Probably not a huge issue if you have one random bad experience...but it's something to think about if you have a kid who might or might not be ready to handle college work--tread cautiously! 

ETA: not to suggest you have to have a masters in something to do it well at home! But science and spanish are the two things I wasn't particularly comfortable doing at home, and English and math were the things I felt like it would be silly NOT to. I finally got to use my grad school education for something! 

Edited July 29, 2019 by kokotg

[EKT]

5 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

This is another instance of 'read the fine print'.  This kind of thing is sooo variable from state to state and school to school.

Around here, both DE and AP are weighted to a 5.0 (rather than 4.0 scale), and Honors to 4.5.  I heard from a friend that lives near Houston that there they rate either DE or AP or both to a 6.0 scale (!!??).  Holy bananas.  I didn't bother weighting any of my kids' scores except the 1/3 that actually attended a brick-and-mortar for hs, so I didn't do her transcript.  

And then each school handles everything so differently.  I'm at this point most familiar with our state flagship, where 2/3 of my kids attend.  They throw out all weighting and recalculate based on their own algorithm.  And really weirdly, while the accept much AP and DE, for English Comp, they will not even take a 5 on AP Lit to get out of Freshman Comp/English   - but they will take a 5 on AP Lang and DE Comp, and also will accept a good CLEP score.  Perhaps not so coincidentally, most high schools in our state offer AP Lit and have high-scoring kids, but almost no in-state schools (unlike other states) even offer AP Lang (I'd never even heard of it till I came here), and most people don't know about CLEP here.  So most in-state kids with 5s on their AP Lit exams that would get out of Comp anywhere else are stuck taking it at the flagship...

So interesting! 

And yes! That was actually my experience at my own state flagship (years and years ago). Even though I scored great on my own AP English exam, all incoming freshman (and I think even some transfers) at the flagship HAD to take Intro to Academic Writing (the basic freshman English class). It was just the university's rule, across the board. (Not sure if it's still a rule in place today.) But I will say, it ended up being a great class (in that it taught me a lot), so I can see why huge universities make all their students take it. (It's impossible to get out of that class without learning how to write a proper academic research paper, so if you take that first thing at college, you're really set up to know how to do well in all of your other courses.) But of course I resented it at the time, lol.

It's amazing to me how much AP stuff has changed. In my high school (back in the late 90s), it was common to take maybe one AP class your senior year, in whatever subject area you were good at (I only ever took the one AP English class). I think the valedictorian of my high school took maybe three or four APs total, in her senior year. And now, it feels really common for kids to have a ton of APs on their transcripts--it seems crazy! (That's partly why I'm so curious to see what the AP fuss is about nowadays--they really weren't a big deal back then.) 

[EKT]

23 minutes ago, kokotg said:

My oldest did a mix of DE and AP (all his AP was at home on our own, not outsourced), and that worked well. For high school, my strategy is to do things at home that we can do well at home and outsource the rest. My husband's a high school math teacher, so he did all math through calculus at home (DE for two post-calc courses); I have a masters in English, so we did AP lit at home and I felt pretty comfortable tackling other humanities courses with him. Science and foreign languages were my priorities for dual enrollment (although he took some other things, too). 

I learned early on in our college search that every school is different as far as what they'll accept or not for credit. Some prefer AP; our in-state publics are required to accept his DE; most selective private schools have a cap on how much credit they'll accept. So our first goal was to have him take classes wherever he would have the best experience for that particular subject and secondarily to have him end up with a transcript that showed he had challenged himself and done well and could handle college level coursework. As it turns out, he's going to a school that will give him credit for a total of 5 classes; they don't seem to care if they're AP or DE, although they'll only give him credit for DE classes that weren't used to meet high school graduation requirements. He has way more credits than he'll be able to use, but it gives him the flexibility to choose which classes will be the most helpful to use the credit for.

Re: the grades in DE; it's my understanding that they follow you forever--i.e. if you do poorly in DE classes, you'll still need to report those grades if you end up applying to grad school. Probably not a huge issue if you have one random bad experience...but it's something to think about if you have a kid who might or might not be ready to handle college work--tread cautiously! 

ETA: not to suggest you have to have a masters in something to do it well at home! But science and spanish are the two things I wasn't particularly comfortable doing at home, and English and math were the things I felt like it would be silly NOT to. I finally got to use my grad school education for something! 

This is wonderful advice. Thank you. The info about DE grades following you around is a great point to keep in mind. (And I totally get what you mean about playing to your family's teaching strengths. So, so helpful!) 

[teachermom2834]

Honestly- in our case de is a much better fit and it is because mine just aren’t driven enough for AP. My oldest tried a few AP classes and didn’t do great on the exams. Both that ds and my less academic second ds did over 30 hours of de with straight As and the transfer credit benefitted then greatly. 

So it is kind of embarrassing to admit but we do de because it is easier with a cleaner transfer equivalent. It is also cheaper. 

I wish my kids were the type to choose AP and pour themselves into it for the challenge and the love of the material. They just aren’t. They would rather get ‘er done and amass credits faster. 

We have access to a private university for de that my kids really enjoy. It is overall a positive experience but it is not rigorous and it is easier than AP. 

I guess we would do AP if a child was very driven and loved the challenge and/or the student was aiming for top tier schools that value AP over de. But neither of those conditions fit our kids. They are normal smart and responsible students but they just aren’t interested in AP and I see no advantage to our family.

[chiguirre]

13 hours ago, EKT said:

Thank you for this; this seems like a good way to think about it. (That is: worrying about high school credit while in high school, and worrying about college credit later, while in college.)

I'm in no particular rush to have my students enter college with a ton of credit banked away, but at the same time, with the cost of college being what it is...it's hard not to try to get the most bang for your buck through DE credit or whatever. But your approach seems sane...taking this under advisement!

This is another area where it is necessary to look carefully at the universities your student is most likely to attend. For us in Texas, there is a 42 credit block of classes that is basically a repetition of high school (2 English, 2 Am history, 2 Am and state gov, 1 math, 2 science, 1 humanities, 1 social science, public speaking, art appreciation and even a 1 credit gym class). The specific requirements depend on each CC or state university and the classes transfer as a block if you're "core complete". Those 42 credits represent a third of a bachelor's degree. They're the difference between being able to double major, take a couple of minors or go abroad for a year without worrying if all those credits will count toward your major. Weirdly, many of our private schools have a very similar set of classes and are very generous in accepting DE, AP and CLEP credits to better compete with our state universities. Of course, if your student is planning to go out of state, none of this matters.

A little bit of internet digging can help you decide what's likely to be the most useful route for your family.

[Arcadia]

DS14 completed 8 AP exams for 6 subjects so far. He did not feel ready to start DE until this fall so we are getting paperwork completed now. His AP Calc BC did help fulfill prerequisite requirements for him to take the next math course. He also didn’t need to take their Math placement test. DS13 took his first AP exam in 6th grade and has completed 5 exams for 4 subjects. He is not ready to dual enroll yet. So for my kids, AP was done because they aren’t ready for dual enrollment. 

[...................]

AP classes are often not accepted for full credit anymore....so I don't think that's a good reason to use them

Good reasons to use them:

--Your kid is applying to more selective universities (here in CA, homeschoolers rarely get in as freshman into UC's without quite a few either AP's or DEs)

--You need to validate....my dd is not a UC candidate so we were considering CalStates-...they say she is a great candidate BUT they are worried about her Apologia Science textbooks.  Both CalPoly and CalState Sonoma mentioned that they literally have never seen a Christian Biology or Chemistry textbook before, and they just really don't know if, after she applied and was asked to provide a little extra verification, the Apologia textbooks would be turned down as not equivalent to A-G approved courses....they recommended that even if she just takes ONE AP Science class, and does well in it that would likely verify to them that she is ready for CalState Sciences.  Unfortunately my daughter would not be a candidate for the rigor and stress of any AP Science class.  So...we don't really know what we are going to do about that.  We've submitted the textbooks to Sonoma for review...waiting to hear what they say.  

Same with English. One of her English courses was a Christian publisher that they aren't sure about...so....if she takes just one AP English, for Calstates, that verifies all four years of English for them...but the strength of the course and the essays will most likely stand on its own and not be a problem especially since she does have 3 years of an A-G approved class (A-G approved is the State of Control-i-fornia's way of controlling and overseeing high school coursework)

Dual Enrollment are not seen as quite as academic as AP classes, but are also a good alternative for getting ahead and validating homeschool stuff.  My son loved his community college classes and really grew as a person, an adult, and a student, in a way that he never would have, had he stayed home and done only online AP classes!  

For private colleges, that are not selective, neither AP nor DE are necessary, but just good grades and good SAT scores 🙂 

[mirabillis]

9 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

--You need to validate....my dd is not a UC candidate so we were considering CalStates-...they say she is a great candidate BUT they are worried about her Apologia Science textbooks.  Both CalPoly and CalState Sonoma mentioned that they literally have never seen a Christian Biology or Chemistry textbook before, and they just really don't know if, after she applied and was asked to provide a little extra verification, the Apologia textbooks would be turned down as not equivalent to A-G approved courses....they recommended that even if she just takes ONE AP Science class, and does well in it that would likely verify to them that she is ready for CalState Sciences.  Unfortunately my daughter would not be a candidate for the rigor and stress of any AP Science class.  So...we don't really know what we are going to do about that.  We've submitted the textbooks to Sonoma for review...waiting to hear what they say.  

Hi! We're UC-hopefuls too - living here in Cali too. I am wondering why you say she is not a UC candidate? Just wondering if maybe you know something I don't... is your dd a rising senior? My ds is as we're about to head down that primrose path.

[G5052]

We did both for different reasons. The community colleges in my state have very explicit transfer agreements with all of the colleges in my state including the private ones, so we were very careful to pick dual enrollment classes that might transfer or at least show advanced academics. In some cases, we did AP's because they weren't available at the colleges (Latin) or because of a specific teacher (Ms. Inspektor for AP English). 

It all worked very well for us. We ended up sending both to the community college because of finances, and both are now at a nationally-ranked four-year in specific programs that fit their goals. They live at home and take the bus. 

Even though we ended up with community college degrees first, they were very well prepared for college.

 

[Paige]

The college admissions advisor we spoke with said they liked seeing APs and DEs on your transcripts but they almost never allow you to opt out of their classes. You get credit/hours on your transcript but you still have to take their core classes. The exceptions were DE English and APUSH with a 4+ and maybe 1-2 others.

It made it seem like a big waste of money only to look good. None of DS’s AP computer classes would let him bypass intro classes. I think colleges are starting to not want to give up the money they make from required courses.

 

[Arcadia]

26 minutes ago, Paige said:

None of DS’s AP computer classes would let him bypass intro classes. I think colleges are starting to not want to give up the money they make from required courses.

 

My kids AP Computer Science A score can’t be used to satisfy any prerequisite for community college. DS14 has to start on the first course in their computer science sequence. 

However, we did know that when we let our kids take that class, and the AP exam in 2017 because I was looking up credit by AP exam scores for all the colleges within commute distance. Still it was the first AP exam for both my kids and it was a no pressure fun experience for them. My DS14 took the AP Calculus BC exam a week after and that was the one that matters to him.

[daijobu]

There's a flip side to APs.  Let's say your student wants to take freshman introductory chemistry with the intention of applying to med school.  If many of the other premeds have taken AP chemistry and your student has not, they may be at a disadvantage (or not if they've had a challenging DE class).  

The same may be true for college introductory computer science where AP CS A won't allow you to skip.  Do you want to be one of the students who is perhaps over-prepared for this class, or one of the students for whom this truly is an introductory course, who may struggle more?  It could be that so many students have already taken AP CS A or otherwise have experience from DE, etc., that the course will be more challenging to reflect the advanced preparation of more of its students. 

It shouldn't be that way, but that's the reality in some schools.     

[shawthorne44]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

There's a flip side to APs.  Let's say your student wants to take freshman introductory chemistry with the intention of applying to med school.  If many of the other premeds have taken AP chemistry and your student has not, they may be at a disadvantage (or not if they've had a challenging DE class).  

The same may be true for college introductory computer science where AP CS A won't allow you to skip.  Do you want to be one of the students who is perhaps over-prepared for this class, or one of the students for whom this truly is an introductory course, who may struggle more?  It could be that so many students have already taken AP CS A or otherwise have experience from DE, etc., that the course will be more challenging to reflect the advanced preparation of more of its students. 

It shouldn't be that way, but that's the reality in some schools.     

Not only that, but at my University with a huge engineering focus including C.S. , one of the required intro C.S. classes was a weed-out class.  

[Guest]

My feelings is that we're doing high school to be high school. In DD's case, that includes a lot of DE classes, picked either because they were a good high school class for her (math, English comp 1 and 2) or because they are interesting (Cultural Anthropology, African American Literature). If she gets credit for the former from a school that has an articulation agreement and believes her DE class to be equivalent, that's a bonus. If not, it was the best fit high school option for her at the time, and it's likely the college assumes everyone is coming in with DE or AP classes at that level, so it's good preparation.  For the latter, they may or may not count in her major, but it doesn't matter. She took them because they were interesting, not because she was trying to meet requirements. The same applies to AP-do AP because it is the best high school class fit for your kid at the time, and because they want to learn the subject at that level. If they get credit, great! If not, at least they had a good high school experience.

I admit, it helps that DE here tends to be less than a good outsourced high school level class, and way under what a good private high school would cost. It's a lot easier to be philosophical about paying for DE credits as high school when they are not only one of the best academic options available, but one of the most cost effective ways to actually get a class taught by someone who knows the subject.

[Guest]

On 7/28/2019 at 8:27 PM, Matryoshka said:

This is another instance of 'read the fine print'.  This kind of thing is sooo variable from state to state and school to school.

Around here, both DE and AP are weighted to a 5.0 (rather than 4.0 scale), and Honors to 4.5.  I heard from a friend that lives near Houston that there they rate either DE or AP or both to a 6.0 scale (!!??).  Holy bananas.  I didn't bother weighting any of my kids' scores except the 1/3 that actually attended a brick-and-mortar for hs, so I didn't do her transcript.  

 

The weighting gets downright ludicrous. I played with the numbers a bit. The difference between DE being weighted at 5, as one local school district does it, and 6 as the other does it is almost a half point at each step for my kid who has done most of her core classes as DE.  That's with not weighting "honors" because I have no clue what that even means for a homeschooler, and not weighting her "Honors X" labeled college classes any differently because I don't know if high schools do that or not. I kind of assume that her transcript will speak for itself.

Edited August 11, 2019 by dmmetler

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

My feelings is that we're doing high school to be high school. In DD's case, that includes a lot of DE classes, picked either because they were a good high school class for her (math, English comp 1 and 2) or because they are interesting (Cultural Anthropology, African American Literature). If she gets credit for the former from a school that has an articulation agreement and believes her DE class to be equivalent, that's a bonus. If not, it was the best fit high school option for her at the time, and it's likely the college assumes everyone is coming in with DE or AP classes at that level, so it's good preparation.  For the latter, they may or may not count in her major, but it doesn't matter. She took them because they were interesting, not because she was trying to meet requirements. The same applies to AP-do AP because it is the best high school class fit for your kid at the time, and because they want to learn the subject at that level. If they get credit, great! If not, at least they had a good high school experience.

 

Echoing all of this! I see so many people who have planned out high school with the idea that dual enrollment and/or AP courses are going to mean their kid can get through college in two years only to be upset when they hit 11th or 12th grade and realize that that's not necessarily true. And then a lot of people end up severely limiting the college search because they're so committed to the idea that all of those credits HAVE TO transfer. We have a great state-funded dual enrollment program in Georgia--my oldest took honors classes at a 4 year university completely for free, books included. It was amazing that he had the opportunity to take some great classes, learn from great professors, get a feel for what college is like...not to mention benefits like having a transcript that showed he could handle college level work and having good people to ask for letters of recommendation. I'm totally happy that he had that experience (FOR FREE!) even if he doesn't get college credit. 

I don't want to be dismissive of the financial concerns with all of this....of course that has to come into play, too. But I just think everyone needs to go into planning out high school understanding how the game works: AP and dual enrollment both have benefits and ONE of those benefits is the possibility of getting college credit. But, despite the college board's marketing, it's far from a sure thing, especially at selective private schools. 

 

[Mabelen]

My oldest attended public high school, took 8 APs with the corresponding exams with a mix of 3, 4 and 5 scores. She attended a UC campus where she got some credit for several of them. Spanish Language where she got a 5 only counted only as an elective; she still had to take the placement exam and test out, which she did. Her AP Bio got her out of the Bio General Ed requirement. APEL and AP Lit, I seem to remember, all they did was to place her in an English class for Seniors. She was in the College of Social Science so I don’t think any of the four APs she had in that area were worth much of anything, possibly some elective credits. The value of taking APs, other than for college admissions, was that she was academically well prepared for real college work.

My youngest is taking AP Bio And APEC this coming year. She may take DE the following year for US History. A marching band friend took DE US History this year and she said it was not very hard. Both AP and DE are weighed the same with 1 extra point for C, B and A on a 5 point scale.

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The course credit gained for AP exams varies a lot from college to college. 

-Highly selective colleges tend to grant the least credit.  However only 1-15% of college freshman attend this tier of college (depending on where you want to define highly selective).

-Other colleges may grant credit, but because the AP course doesn't correspond directly to a course at the college,  the credit might be as a general elective. This can still be useful if the college has graduation requirements outside the major (sometimes called distribution credits, university credits, or liberal arts credits).

-Public universities probably offer the most credit for AP courses.  Looking at so.e of the policies for our state system, a student might even get credit in a general survey science course for a 2 on the exam. Not that useful for a STEM major, but a communication or film studies major could meet a requirement with that.

Even students at highly selective colleges may find AP courses useful if it gives them a background similar to their peers in their courses.  I think it's not uncommon for students to take foundational major requirements even though they have already taken an AP course in the subject. 

All that said, AP isn't magical. Dual enrollment and other options can also be rigorous. And I don't agree with the idea of pushing kids into AP when they aren't ready for college level work.

[Bristayl]

At the college my dd is starting at next week, there is a difference between how they treat dual credits and AP/CLEP exam credits. Dual credits are automatically transferred when they enroll, whereas they have to "accept" the exam credits, and can choose not to accept some. We learned at her college orientation this summer that her financial aid eligibility would only be good for credits up to 134% of her degree plan. Her degree plan is 120 credits, so she wouldn't be eligible for financial aid after 160 credits, and any credits she brings in count. Dd won't accept 8 of her exam credits at all, and the other 20 she won't accept until the end of her last semester, at which point she may exceed the 160 credits by 1 or 2 credits, but it shouldn't affect her financial aid at that point.

[lewelma]

At ds's school, AP gains you credit in both physics and both calc. It does not for chem or bio (you have to take the final exam and pass it to get out of these freshman classes, and only about 15% of the students pass out). AP English lit or language is used as a placement test, and not for credit. 

DE gains you credit IF you can demonstrate that the content was equivalent to one of their courses, and taken over 1 semester not over a year (so not a stretch course). To do this we had to provide: course text book and edition, course outline including pages in textbook covered, midterm and final exam (and if these wen't available, then the professor had fill in a piece of paper stating what specific content was covered on a proctored exam). DS gained credit for his DE linear algebra this way, but it was a pain as we didn't keep records, and the prof for his course had no syllabus so we had to make one based off of his homework sets we also scanned and sent in. We did not even try to gain credit for a different math course he took, as it was not equivalent to any course on offer, so would have been a waste of time.

Point being, depends on the school, and depends on the course. 

 

[EKT]

8 hours ago, Bristayl said:

At the college my dd is starting at next week, there is a difference between how they treat dual credits and AP/CLEP exam credits. Dual credits are automatically transferred when they enroll, whereas they have to "accept" the exam credits, and can choose not to accept some. We learned at her college orientation this summer that her financial aid eligibility would only be good for credits up to 134% of her degree plan. Her degree plan is 120 credits, so she wouldn't be eligible for financial aid after 160 credits, and any credits she brings in count. Dd won't accept 8 of her exam credits at all, and the other 20 she won't accept until the end of her last semester, at which point she may exceed the 160 credits by 1 or 2 credits, but it shouldn't affect her financial aid at that point.

This is so good to know; I did not consider this angle (credits/financial aid). Very helpful!!

[katilac]

On 8/11/2019 at 6:53 PM, dmmetler said:

 That's with not weighting "honors" because I have no clue what that even means for a homeschooler 

My take: if it is equivalent in rigor to honors classes in your local district, it is legit to label and weigh it as an honors class. If you know you are in a very weak district and think their honors classes lack rigor, search out a few syllabi from better districts and use those as your benchmark.