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Æthelthryth the Texan

Hive, Esq. - I have some questions re: Jefferey Epstein

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I get legally prisoners have these rights. Not arguing they shouldn’t. But it seems like so many of the prisons in the US allow extremely abusive conditions that it honestly makes me 🙄 on some of the reasons why he wasn’t on watch or camera. I mean they also have a right to not be beaten or raped, but that seems to happen with a staggering amount of regularity at some prisons. So it’s hard to digest why being on camera is the line that violates anything. We’re on camera just about everywhere as free citizens. I hadn’t realized you had a right to privacy in a jail cell tbh. Aside from talking to your lawyer what other privacy do you get in prison? Phone calls and letters are screened aren’t they? 

Edited by Æthelthryth the Texan
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21 hours ago, hjffkj said:

she was joking

thanks, yes.

I put my disclaimer calling it dark sarcasm in my first post but neglected to do it in that one. 

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6 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I get legally prisoners have these rights. Not arguing they shouldn’t. But it seems like so many of the prisons in the US allow extremely abusive conditions that it honestly makes me 🙄 on some of the reasons why he wasn’t on watch or camera. I mean they also have a right to not be beaten or raped, but that seems to happen with a staggering amount of regularity at some prisons. So it’s hard to digest why being on camera is the line that violates anything. We’re on camera just about everywhere as free citizens. I hadn’t realized you had a right to privacy in a jail cell tbh. Aside from talking to your lawyer what other privacy do you get in prison? Phone calls and letters are screened aren’t they? 

 

You aren't under constant 24/7 surveillance, and comparing that to being on camera in public is just silly.  And I never mentioned a right to privacy.  Prisoners do have a right to (reasonable) personal dignity.

 

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55 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

Epstein had not yet been convicted.  Also his alleged victims have the same right to justice as all victims, regardless of the notoriety of the accused.  Being kept under 24/7 surveillance for reasons outside the usual protocol would correctly be challenged in court.

Wasn't he already convicted and spent close to a year in jail before?

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Just now, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Yes, but that isn't relevant regarding how he is being held on the new charges.

So, are there new victims in the new charges filed or are these the same victims from before when he was convicted? (too little time spent on researching this case other than reading about powerful people he was close to. trying to understand how he got away before after being jailed).

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10 hours ago, mathnerd said:

Wasn't he already convicted and spent close to a year in jail before?

only for a fraction of the accusations against him.   they were still investigating him when he went to prison before.  nothing was done about those findings.

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12 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I get legally prisoners have these rights. Not arguing they shouldn’t. But it seems like so many of the prisons in the US allow extremely abusive conditions that it honestly makes me 🙄 on some of the reasons why he wasn’t on watch or camera. I mean they also have a right to not be beaten or raped, but that seems to happen with a staggering amount of regularity at some prisons. So it’s hard to digest why being on camera is the line that violates anything. We’re on camera just about everywhere as free citizens. I hadn’t realized you had a right to privacy in a jail cell tbh. Aside from talking to your lawyer what other privacy do you get in prison? Phone calls and letters are screened aren’t they? 

I think the main problem with camera surveillance in a jail cell is the toilet. Even stores with extensive video surveillance don't film in the restrooms for the obvious reasons. You have to have extraordinary reasons to film someone using the toilet or you run up against the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

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23 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I think the main problem with camera surveillance in a jail cell is the toilet. Even stores with extensive video surveillance don't film in the restrooms for the obvious reasons. You have to have extraordinary reasons to film someone using the toilet or you run up against the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

 

True. 

I have always told my kids (especially the girls, playing with hair, make up, etc), do not take pictures in a public bathroom!!! And especially don’t post them! Because you may unintentionally infringe on someone else’s right to privacy. 

Sorry, I know Epstein and his crimes =/= teen girls checking the latest eyeliner look. (Forgive me, I have been high school level school supply shopping today [$$$yikes!] and have had a glass of wine while doing the last of it via amazon). As ChocReign has skillfully reminded us, due process applies to Epstein, whether we like it or not. 

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This may have been discussed already, but wouldn’t the prison have cameras in the hallways?  Then they could just roll the tape and see who walked in his cell, right?  Am I missing something? I thought that would be SOP?   

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30 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

This may have been discussed already, but wouldn’t the prison have cameras in the hallways?  Then they could just roll the tape and see who walked in his cell, right?  Am I missing something? I thought that would be SOP?   

 

There are cameras throughout and they will (at the minimum) be able to see who was in the area.

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On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 9:00 PM, Seasider too said:

 

True. 

I have always told my kids (especially the girls, playing with hair, make up, etc), do not take pictures in a public bathroom!!! And especially don’t post them! Because you may unintentionally infringe on someone else’s right to privacy. 

Sorry, I know Epstein and his crimes =/= teen girls checking the latest eyeliner look. (Forgive me, I have been high school level school supply shopping today [$$$yikes!] and have had a glass of wine while doing the last of it via amazon). As ChocReign has skillfully reminded us, due process applies to Epstein, whether we like it or not. 

doesn't even equal the blogger/whatever/think's-she's-a-model  that took a picture of a nekked middle age woman in a gym dressing room and body shamed her.  the brat was surprised there was pushback to her post.

incidentally - the tracked down the woman and charges were filed.  as well as she was expelled from the gym.

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I'd guess the difference between violence and rape in prison and survellaince in prison is that technically the government is not doing the former, and would be doing the latter.

That is to say, it's not legal to beat someone up or rape them in prison or to have constant video survellaince of someone's private jail cell.  The government doesn't do either thing.

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I’m disappointed in the WP for what seems to me like a sensationalized headline. When you read the article, it clearly states that broken neck bones can happen with suicide by hanging, even hyoid bones, particularly with older people. I subscribe to both NYT and WP, and generally I give the WP the slight edge, but not this time.

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On 8/13/2019 at 10:26 AM, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

You aren't under constant 24/7 surveillance, and comparing that to being on camera in public is just silly.  And I never mentioned a right to privacy.  Prisoners do have a right to (reasonable) personal dignity.

 

This reminds me of a hospital where I was supposed to give birth and they acted like I was so unreasonable. They put cameras in their postpartum hospital rooms so they could just look in on the mothers any time they wanted. The mom's could push a button that would shut it off for 15 minutes at a time, but otherwise, it was on 24/7. I objected. Then I switched doctors because it was made clear I was unreasonable and my doctor only practiced there. It was so creepy. I am shocked that anyone ever delivered there. I was on the tour and just was in such shock. I was the only one who seemed to object.

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23 minutes ago, Janeway said:

This reminds me of a hospital where I was supposed to give birth and they acted like I was so unreasonable. They put cameras in their postpartum hospital rooms so they could just look in on the mothers any time they wanted. The mom's could push a button that would shut it off for 15 minutes at a time, but otherwise, it was on 24/7. I objected. Then I switched doctors because it was made clear I was unreasonable and my doctor only practiced there. It was so creepy. I am shocked that anyone ever delivered there. I was on the tour and just was in such shock. I was the only one who seemed to object.

 

Oh that sounds awful.  

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One of the first episodes of Bones was one about the hyoid.  According to their writers, it's only indicative of murder in teens.  By middle age it's much easier to break.

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I can see the bones breaking if you have a rope and jump off a chair.  That makes perfect sense.  After all the idea of a hanging is really to break the neck.  If that doesn't happen then they strangle. 

Epstein had a paper sheet and was found just leaning forward with the sheet around his neck.   No way did he break his own neck. 

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FWIW, the forensic expert whose general statement about general hypoid bone fractures was included in WaPo's origin story about Epstein has issued a statement, including both a clarification that he did not himself examine Epstein body, and also that such fractures are "well recognized" as possible in suicides by hanging.

 

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On 8/15/2019 at 12:18 PM, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

There are cameras throughout and they will (at the minimum) be able to see who was in the area.

Since that hasn’t been released or leaked (that I’ve noticed anyway), my hunch is that nobody was seen going into his room...which of course doesn’t fit the narrative of certain people, hence it not being released.  But that’s just a guess.  

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21 hours ago, Janeway said:

This reminds me of a hospital where I was supposed to give birth and they acted like I was so unreasonable. They put cameras in their postpartum hospital rooms so they could just look in on the mothers any time they wanted. The mom's could push a button that would shut it off for 15 minutes at a time, but otherwise, it was on 24/7. I objected. Then I switched doctors because it was made clear I was unreasonable and my doctor only practiced there. It was so creepy. I am shocked that anyone ever delivered there. I was on the tour and just was in such shock. I was the only one who seemed to object.

 

Where is the shocked face emoji when ya need it??? 

I can understand cameras all the time in the baby nursery, but in a private patient room... sounds like someone took Good Omens a little too seriously. 

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2 hours ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Since that hasn’t been released or leaked (that I’ve noticed anyway), my hunch is that nobody was seen going into his room...which of course doesn’t fit the narrative of certain people, hence it not being released.  But that’s just a guess.  

 

I don't think in that section of the prison his cell was visible by any others, there was just the camera in the hall.  Anyone capable of killing him was probably a guard capable of drugging the other guard and looping the security video.  I'm not saying I think he was murdered, I'm just saying it's possible.

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Something occurred to me after he died.  
Imagine being one of his victims and that you were thinking of coming forward in a MeToo manner.  Would you come forward now?    I don't use the words needed to adequately describe how much of a No that is.  If daughter was a victim and was thinking of coming forward, I'd want my husband to take her to visit her cousin currently in the peace corp.  Whether she wanted to go or not.   Just to get away from easy access to phones/internet. 

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22 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

Something occurred to me after he died.  
Imagine being one of his victims and that you were thinking of coming forward in a MeToo manner.  Would you come forward now?    I don't use the words needed to adequately describe how much of a No that is.  If daughter was a victim and was thinking of coming forward, I'd want my husband to take her to visit her cousin currently in the peace corp.  Whether she wanted to go or not.   Just to get away from easy access to phones/internet. 

 

I would want my loved one to process the experience in the most personally effective way possible. For some (many?), coming forward is the best way for them to validate their (albeit negative) life experience; to stand with others and know beyond a shadow of a doubt IT WASN'T HER FAULT. 

Others may better process it quietly, with private counseling. Either way, hiding and sweeping it under the rug doesn’t seem to be the best way to assist healing and  future emotional health. 

I’m not sure if you actually mean hide and deny the experience? Or just get away from the media circus? Because I can totally understand, as a parent, the gut level desire to shield our precious children. 

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5 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

I would want my loved one to process the experience in the most personally effective way possible. For some (many?), coming forward is the best way for them to validate their (albeit negative) life experience; to stand with others and know beyond a shadow of a doubt IT WASN'T HER FAULT. 

Others may better process it quietly, with private counseling. Either way, hiding and sweeping it under the rug doesn’t seem to be the best way to assist healing and  future emotional health. 

I’m not sure if you actually mean hide and deny the experience? Or just get away from the media circus? Because I can totally understand, as a parent, the gut level desire to shield our precious children. 

I think she meant that if there was a chance Epstein was silenced/killed she'd be worried whoever did that might come after her daughter as well, to silence her. 

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6 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I think she meant that if there was a chance Epstein was silenced/killed she'd be worried whoever did that might come after her daughter as well, to silence her. 

 

Yup, this.   

There are those that think he was suicided, and those that think he did it to himself.   For those that think he did it himself, would you stake your life on it, or that of a victim daughter?   Because it wasn't just Epstein.  The victims can and were saying who was doing things.  

In every suicide there is always the question of, maybe it was murder.  A friend of the family supposedly committed suicide and died instantly using a gun in his driveway of his remote house, and a gun wasn't found.  So, just because someone official says it was suicide doesn't carry much weight with me.   eta: He was also in a fight with his sister at that moment.  The sister wanted to put their mom in a cheap nursing home, and he wanted to allow his mom to stay in her home and have people come in to assist.  So, there is no way he would have killed himself.  

In High School, while I was in the house, the father of my boyfriend shot himself.  I didn't see it happen, but based on what I did see I believe he really did.   But, the thing is, the police weren't in the house 5 minutes.  They did 2 question interviews of everyone in the house, which was the mom, the son and me.  Of course, we had the expected shell-shocked demeanors.  

 

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2 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

 

Yup, this.   

There are those that think he was suicided, and those that think he did it to himself.   For those that think he did it himself, would you stake your life on it, or that of a victim daughter?   Because it wasn't just Epstein.  The victims can and were saying who was doing things.  

In every suicide there is always the question of, maybe it was murder.  A friend of the family supposedly committed suicide and died instantly using a gun in his driveway of his remote house, and a gun wasn't found.  So, just because someone official says it was suicide doesn't carry much weight with me.   eta: He was also in a fight with his sister at that moment.  The sister wanted to put their mom in a cheap nursing home, and he wanted to allow his mom to stay in her home and have people come in to assist.  So, there is no way he would have killed himself.  

In High School, while I was in the house, the father of my boyfriend shot himself.  I didn't see it happen, but based on what I did see I believe he really did.   But, the thing is, the police weren't in the house 5 minutes.  They did 2 question interviews of everyone in the house, which was the mom, the son and me.  Of course, we had the expected shell-shocked demeanors.  

 

Ah, ok, I wasn’t thinking about it from the perspective that my dd might be a potential witness. 

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