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Æthelthryth the Texan

Hive, Esq. - I have some questions re: Jefferey Epstein

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His ego is so huge, I am still really surprised it was suicide just on a personal observation front. Seems like the huge egos aren't usually the ones who do that. He seems like the kind who would STILL think, or rather have thought, he could pull out of it at the end with enough money and enough lawyers. I don't know much from a clinical perspective though about suicide to know how narcissism and such things- play into those risks. 

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

something is rotten in Denmark.....

I honestly think, from what I'm reading on Twitter from lawyers who have experience with MCC, that it is less conspiracy and more just that jails are understaffed, run by guards apathetic to the welfare of those in their charge, and MCC is no exception and is actually a good example of how poorly run corrections facilities usually are.

I think on the outside we all want to think that a suicidal, high-profile defendent would warrant more scrutiny and care on the part of the jail, but the sad truth is that he probably was watched more closely than most inmates, but that doesn't mean much.

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1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

His ego is so huge, I am still really surprised it was suicide just on a personal observation front. Seems like the huge egos aren't usually the ones who do that. He seems like the kind who would STILL think, or rather have thought, he could pull out of it at the end with enough money and enough lawyers. I don't know much from a clinical perspective though about suicide to know how narcissism and such things- play into those risks. 

From my understanding of the research, older men with NPD are actually at higher risk of depression and subsequent suicide than many other personality disorder groups. I wonder if that’s because people are sick of their $&%^, and they get lonely. I was surprised to read it.

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3 hours ago, mathnerd said:

just pointing out that Ghislane Maxwell, far from being a scapegoat, has far reaching roles in this case and has been named as a person who sexually assaulted them by more than one woman (the victims presumably were underaged and seeking employment when the assaults happened). Though I agree with you that many men who took advantage of underage women will go scot-free in this case,  Maxwell is not without blame either. 

 

ETA: Ghislane Maxwell settled both the cases of sexual assault field against her (and had the documents sealed?)

If course, I agree, I never said she was blameless.

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gee, no cameras in his cell.  why am I not surprised?

the coroner isn't releasing a cause of death - even though the autopsy is complete. 

and while I do think he's an arrogant prick and would take the cowards way out if he thought he'd spend the rest of his life behind bars - he was still coming across as though he thought he'd get out, and two weeks ago was making reports someone tried to kill him.

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8 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well NYT is reporting typical protocol was not followed for Epstein prior to his death.  And according to this article, after allegedly trying to commit suicide was deemed no longer a threat to himself in SIX days.  Wow.    

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/nyregion/epstein-death-manhattan-correctional-center.html

 

The 6 days isn't surprising.  I think the norm for being on a watch is 72 hours.

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8 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

The 6 days isn't surprising.  I think the norm for being on a watch is 72 hours.

72 hours?! They must think they have some magical shrinks there. Voila! You're no longer depressed and wishing to die! If only. 

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3 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

72 hours?! They must think they have some magical shrinks there. Voila! You're no longer depressed and wishing to die! If only. 

They might as well not have suicide watch at all.  Seriously.  

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I wonder if they just didn’t care whether he killed himself or not.  Or whether someone else did it for him.  You know, just turn your head and pretend you don’t notice the ‘prison justice’? 

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38 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I wonder if they just didn’t care whether he killed himself or not.  Or whether someone else did it for him.  You know, just turn your head and pretend you don’t notice the ‘prison justice’? 

I could see guard mentality being that way. I mean, how jaded must that job make you. I can't even imagine what they see and deal with. But heads are going to seriously roll and it seems hard to believe people wouldn't know that if they had even a smidgeon of awareness on the magnitude of his case? The Twitter theory that he, or someone, paid off the guards to look the other way makes sense on that. I mean, I am guessing someone(s) is going to get fired as the sacrificial lamb on this. If you are working as a prison guard, it's not likely you have (as dh likes to call it) an FU fund to simply walk away.......unless I guess, Epstein associate provides the FU fund? But then I'm back on the conspiracy train, LOL. 

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40 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I wonder if they just didn’t care whether he killed himself or not.  Or whether someone else did it for him.  You know, just turn your head and pretend you don’t notice the ‘prison justice’? 

there's a john gotti associate who visited him a lot when gotti was in this facility.  he claims that it is extremely corrupt, and you can get almost anything you want - for the right price. (gave the example gotti had his favorite steak dinner whenever he wanted it.)  that includes from guards.  he also said there are cameras everywhere going 24/7...

my very liberal niece has posted to FB how the belief JE was murdered is something both sides can agree on.

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29 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I wonder if they just didn’t care whether he killed himself or not.  Or whether someone else did it for him.  You know, just turn your head and pretend you don’t notice the ‘prison justice’? 

Yeah, I find it really strange that with the first "suicide attempt" he was found unconscious with bruises on his neck — but nothing tied around his neck, and no apparent means of hanging himself. Just an unconscious man, curled in a fetal position, with bruises on both sides of his neck. If the guards believed (or actually knew) that it was an assault, not a suicide attempt, then it would make sense that he was moved to solitary and the suicide watch was not taken that seriously. 

Even if his death was truly suicide and not murder, it certainly could have been "assisted" in any number of ways — providing him with the materials to hang himself, making infrequent checks, beating or sexually assaulting him, threatening him with future assault by guards and inmates (telling him what happens to pedophiles in prison, taunting him about his future as another inmate's "girlfriend"), etc.

 

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1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

72 hours?! They must think they have some magical shrinks there. Voila! You're no longer depressed and wishing to die! If only. 

Think about what a suicide watch is.  Constant surveillance all day and night.  Lights on.  No privacy at all.  Nothing in a cell that can even possibly be used to harm yourself.  It is dehumanizing and they have found too long under watch is also damaging.  Not to mention it is staff intensive.  The goal is to get someone out of immediate crisis, and by and large it usually works.  In the end if someone really wants to kill themselves they will eventually find a way.

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4 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

Think about what a suicide watch is.  Constant surveillance all day and night.  Lights on.  No privacy at all.  Nothing in a cell that can even possibly be used to harm yourself.  It is dehumanizing and they have found too long under watch is also damaging.  Not to mention it is staff intensive.  The goal is to get someone out of immediate crisis, and by and large it usually works.  In the end if someone really wants to kill themselves they will eventually find a way.

I guess in light of today's technology, I had (wrongly obviously) assumed just about everything except the lights is status quo in jail. But I have no experience with that, so will admit complete and utter ignorance aside from fictional TV shows, which I'm sure give a very unrealistic impression.

It's just surprising, because if I, a simple non-wealthy person can have a massive surveillance presence on my property with cameras and controlled alarms- I just figured that a prison in the most populous place in the US would have better equipment than me. I mean, for $100 bucks you can buy something that tells you if your baby has stopped breathing. You'd think there would be much more advanced tech available for prison security. And they had El Chapo there, right?  I'm surprised with that level of Three Stooges security, they didn't dig another tunnel and get him out! 

If nothing, this has been an eye opener for me on prison security and treatment. I thought what I thought was the worst. I was wrong. 

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1 minute ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I guess in light of today's technology, I had (wrongly obviously) assumed just about everything except the lights is status quo in jail. But I have no experience with that, so will admit complete and utter ignorance aside from fictional TV shows, which I'm sure give a very unrealistic impression.

It's just surprising, because if I, a simple non-wealthy person can have a massive surveillance presence on my property with cameras and controlled alarms- I just figured that a prison in the most populous place in the US would have better equipment than me. I mean, for $100 bucks you can buy something that tells you if your baby has stopped breathing. You'd think there would be much more advanced tech available for prison security. And they had El Chapo there, right?  I'm surprised with that level of Three Stooges security, they didn't dig another tunnel and get him out! 

If nothing, this has been an eye opener for me on prison security and treatment. I thought what I thought was the worst. I was wrong. 

 

I don't think you realize how big some prisons are and how many people they house.  And they generally don't have flush budgets.  Your baby also isn't actively working to find a way to beat any monitoring system you install.

Considering the rarity of escapes, I am not sure you can make an effective case for Three Stooges security.

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4 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

I don't think you realize how big some prisons are and how many people they house.  And they generally don't have flush budgets.  Your baby also isn't actively working to find a way to beat any monitoring system you install.

Considering the rarity of escapes, I am not sure you can make an effective case for Three Stooges security.

Well they keep calling this a jail, which is a largely different picture in my head. So no, I probably don't realize it. 

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Apparently there are only 6 cells in the high security section where Epstein and El Chapo were. I can't believe they couldn't at least have some kind of camera surveillance in each of those 6 cells so one guard could sit and watch a monitor. Surely there are security cameras all over the place there, so it wouldn't cost much to add a few more to monitor the highest risk prisoners. And if the cameras recorded 24 hrs at a time, then there'd be a record of what happened, too. It just seems so bizarre that the only two options available are either putting a guy in a glass tank with all the lights on and one human sitting there staring at him nonstop, or putting him in a solitary cell where no one can see him at all unless they physically walk over there and peer through a little window every once in a while. Not to mention the fact that if he really did hang himself, he must have had access to some kind of material for that, and it seems like at the very least that aspect of "suicide watch" protocol should have been maintained.

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(Apologies if this has already been posted. I can't keep up with what I read where.)

If true, this Twitter thread has an excellent explanation of suicide watch and why a person with NPD or even narcissistic tendencies might be inclined to suicide:

 

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WaPo says his cell mate was mysteriously transferred on Friday. Corrections officers were to check on him every 30 minutes, but no one checked for hours. ME needs more info for cause of death. All of this is supposed  to be just a matter of  poor prison management? Did the DA and the judge not KNOW of these supposed issues with short staffing at MCC? Seems like they’d be aware and have options to ensure the biggest defendant going right now was going to be housed there. 

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On 8/10/2019 at 7:04 AM, unsinkable said:

He hogtied himself then hung himself. Also had a couple skull fractures. And defensive wounds on his hands.

Definitely suicide.

XXX XXX

His poor victims.

 

Where are you getting this information? 

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11 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

she was joking

 

Thanks. LOL. So much conspiracy weirdness out there these days, it's hard to know what people are reading. 

Edited by Minerva
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Question for anyone that knows- what is the government obligation as far as releasing cause of death or anything else once the ME has the final report? Can they keep this buttoned up for a while, or what is the SOP on something high profile that was an active court case like this? 

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Ok, so...take this as very unlikely to be accurate, but according to all the suspense books I read (which is a LOT), autopsy is done in days, but all the lab results can take longer (checking for drugs, etc). Often (in the fictional books) the ME won't give cause of death until lab results are back, even if the cause seems obvious, just to cover their own butt. Especially on a case with this much publicity even a tiny chance of saying one thing and then finding out a week later it was something else, or something else figured into it, is another. 

So, for instance, could look like hanging but later find out there was a shit ton of sedatives in their system and realize they would have been unconscious and unable to hang themselves, or whatever. 

Again, I'm an expert on fictional forensics only. 🙂

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FWIW, the WSJ is reporting that it was Epstein's own counsel who requested he be taken off suicide watch..

Quote

he was taken off suicide watch late last month at the request of his attorneys

 

... while AP is reporting that the federal MCC in which he was being held (which has also held such high-profile individuals as Reza Zarrab, Joshua Schulte and El Chapo over the last two years, every one of whom have had reported... "irregularities" during their time there) is suffering such extreme staffing shortages that

Quote

Epstein’s death brings fresh attention to the staffing at Manhattan’s Metropolitan Correctional Center, where shortages worsened by a partial government shutdown prompted inmates to stage a hunger strike in January after they were denied family and lawyer visits.

Eight months later, the lockup remains so short-staffed that the BOP [=federal Bureau of Prisons] is offering correctional officers a $10,000 bonus to transfer there from other federal lockups. That’s on top of a so-called “recruitment incentive” that amounts to 10% of new guards’ first-year salaries.

Staffing shortfalls are resulting in extreme overtime shifts, in which guards may work up to 16 hours a day. A person familiar with the jail’s operations told The Associated Press that a guard in Epstein’s unit was working a fifth straight day of overtime and another guard was working mandatory overtime the day he was found.

 

Back to the WSJ account,

Quote

After Mr. Epstein was removed from suicide watch, he was downgraded to “special observation status,” which mandated that guards check on him every 30 minutes and also required him to have a cellmate, a person familiar with his detention said. But in the hours before Mr. Epstein’s death, his cellmate was gone, possibly out for a court appearance or another appointment, and not quickly replaced as required. And Mr. Epstein wasn’t receiving the regular check, this person said.

 

If the "irregularities" amount to a couple of overtired/ short-staffed guards not being too fastidious about ensuring that an entitled serial child molester is protected from self-harm... well.

Not protocol for sure; and frustrating from the vantage point of victims wanting justice; but hardly the stuff of global murder conspiracies or gripping suspense fiction.

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9 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok, so...take this as very unlikely to be accurate, but according to all the suspense books I read (which is a LOT), autopsy is done in days, but all the lab results can take longer (checking for drugs, etc). Often (in the fictional books) the ME won't give cause of death until lab results are back, even if the cause seems obvious, just to cover their own butt. Especially on a case with this much publicity even a tiny chance of saying one thing and then finding out a week later it was something else, or something else figured into it, is another. 

So, for instance, could look like hanging but later find out there was a shit ton of sedatives in their system and realize they would have been unconscious and unable to hang themselves, or whatever. 

Again, I'm an expert on fictional forensics only. 🙂

This is how it was with my sister’s sudden, unexpected death. They didn’t have an “official” explanation for her death until several weeks, possibly even two months, later. The early cause of death was kidney failure, but they don’t officially release that until the lab reports have made a conclusion. 

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1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

FWIW, the WSJ is reporting that it was Epstein's own counsel who requested he be taken off suicide watch..

 

As others have noted, being on suicide watch is invasive, and it is entirely possible the he got fed up with it for that reason alone. Then when the despair overwhelmed him...

Having observed as a visitor a one-on-one suicide watch in a hospital and then how they managed the individual in the behavioral unit of a hospital, I can tell you that it is never perfect. They don't always put cameras in the bathrooms, and there are always ways around the checks and keeping certain materials away. For example, they are typically not allowed to have shoe strings in their shoes, but clothing can be torn and/or rolled up into strips. In that situation, they may wear their own clothing.

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On 8/12/2019 at 6:47 AM, EmseB said:

I honestly think, from what I'm reading on Twitter from lawyers who have experience with MCC, that it is less conspiracy and more just that jails are understaffed, run by guards apathetic to the welfare of those in their charge, and MCC is no exception and is actually a good example of how poorly run corrections facilities usually are.

I think on the outside we all want to think that a suicidal, high-profile defendent would warrant more scrutiny and care on the part of the jail, but the sad truth is that he probably was watched more closely than most inmates, but that doesn't mean much.

 

I think so too.

It's kind of gross, though, that people are so busy showing off their rationality (not here, on the interwebz more generally), without stopping to think what this systemic failure on the part of the jail means for the victims, who have been denied justice. They are the only people that matter here, and the justice system let them down. Which is the larger point.

He should have been kept alive through a trial. The cost of keeping him alive should have been borne by his estate. 

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21 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I guess in light of today's technology, I had (wrongly obviously) assumed just about everything except the lights is status quo in jail. But I have no experience with that, so will admit complete and utter ignorance aside from fictional TV shows, which I'm sure give a very unrealistic impression.

It's just surprising, because if I, a simple non-wealthy person can have a massive surveillance presence on my property with cameras and controlled alarms- I just figured that a prison in the most populous place in the US would have better equipment than me. I mean, for $100 bucks you can buy something that tells you if your baby has stopped breathing. You'd think there would be much more advanced tech available for prison security. And they had El Chapo there, right?  I'm surprised with that level of Three Stooges security, they didn't dig another tunnel and get him out! 

If nothing, this has been an eye opener for me on prison security and treatment. I thought what I thought was the worst. I was wrong. 

I don't think you understand how suicide watch works. The have a guard literally sit there watching the prisoner for 24 hours a day and noting about every half hour what the prisoner is doing. It might say "1 am: prisoner sleeping" and then "1:30 am: prisoner sleeping" and on and on. Prisons are often very understaffed and guards may be working 18 hour shifts in a dangerous environment, so suicide watches strain the guards even more. When not on suicide watch, the guards should be checking on prisoners every 30 minutes, but 30 minutes is still plenty of time. Prisoners like Epstein are at a huge risk of being killed or injured by other inmates too. At the prison where one of my family members worked, anyone there for child molestation was kept in a totally separate pod, not allowed to eat in the cafeteria (fed in the pod), and *never* moved when anyone else was in the hallways because they would be injured or killed.

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27 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I figured with today's technology, they would use camera and not waste the manpower of having someone staring at a person. Seems excessively inefficient. 

 

Somebody would still have to stare at the screen.

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Well, but then that someone could stare at 6 screens or 12.  

In a related topic, I have been hoping for an evidence bomb that Epstein might have setup in case of his death.  Doesn't seem to have happened.  Dang nab it.  

 

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2 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

Well, but then that someone could stare at 6 screens or 12.  

 

Perhaps part of the reason for having a staff member sitting there is to provide human contact.

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3 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

Well, but then that someone could stare at 6 screens or 12.  

In a related topic, I have been hoping for an evidence bomb that Epstein might have setup in case of his death.  Doesn't seem to have happened.  Dang nab it.  

 

I'm trying to figure out why they are just now getting to the island. Everyone knew about the island!! 

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2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I think so too.

It's kind of gross, though, that people are so busy showing off their rationality (not here, on the interwebz more generally), without stopping to think what this systemic failure on the part of the jail means for the victims, who have been denied justice. They are the only people that matter here, and the justice system let them down. Which is the larger point.

He should have been kept alive through a trial. The cost of keeping him alive should have been borne by his estate

 

Really terrible idea on multiple levels.  It's easy to say that about someone rich like Epstein but the average prisoner awaiting trial likely can't afford being charged for his own security.  And we can't charge someone like Epstein only because he has a higher net worth.

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3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Perhaps part of the reason for having a staff member sitting there is to provide human contact.

 

Likely some of the reason.  I would also think asking someone to monitor 6 screens closely would be mind numbingly difficult.

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Oh, it's a terrible idea, but so is the idea of multiple victims being cheated of justice by a coward because the system won't or can't be bothered.

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2 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I'm trying to figure out why they are just now getting to the island. Everyone knew about the island!! 

the tabloids have had stories  with pictures - for weeks about how things are being dismantled.  who knows what documents/records are now long gone.

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1 hour ago, StellaM said:

Oh, it's a terrible idea, but so is the idea of multiple victims being cheated of justice by a coward because the system won't or can't be bothered.

 

He wasn't yet convicted and still had rights.  We can't (or shouldn't) put prisoners awaiting trial through psychological torture to stop the occasional suicide.  If someone really wants to kill themselves they will eventually find a way.

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8 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

He wasn't yet convicted and still had rights.  We can't (or shouldn't) put prisoners awaiting trial through psychological torture to stop the occasional suicide.  If someone really wants to kill themselves they will eventually find a way.

 

Yeah, not a fan of that saying.

Have heard way too many medicos using it to excuse negligence. 

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20 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yeah, not a fan of that saying.

Have heard way too many medicos using it to excuse negligence. 

 

It's reality.  You can't place someone on 24/7 surveillance because of what they might do without a very good reason.  Eventually they will have an opportunity and if they take it and are successful there isn't much that can be done. 

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1 minute ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

It's reality.  You can't place someone on 24/7 surveillance because of what they might do without a very good reason.  Eventually they will have an opportunity and if they take it and are successful there isn't much that can be done. 

 

I've had my kid placed on 24/7 surveillance, and demanded appropriate care in the face of 'you can't stop them if they really want' excuses. Now she is not dead and close to graduation. Suicidality can be treated if people care to treat it.

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1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

I've had my kid placed on 24/7 surveillance, and demanded appropriate care in the face of 'you can't stop them if they really want' excuses. Now she is not dead and close to graduation. Suicidality can be treated if people care to treat it.

 

There are people who can be treated.  This was a person who did not want to spend his lifetime in prison. Comparing the two is illogical. 

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7 minutes ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

 

There are people who can be treated.  This was a person who did not want to spend his lifetime in prison. Comparing the two is illogical. 

 

It's logical that we allow suspected criminals to kill themselves because 'they don't wanna' before trial ? OK.

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49 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

It's logical that we allow suspected criminals to kill themselves because 'they don't wanna' before trial ? OK.

 

There are ways to increase budgets, but they are not popular.

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52 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

There are ways to increase budgets, but they are not popular.

 

True.

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10 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

Well, but then that someone could stare at 6 screens or 12.  

In a related topic, I have been hoping for an evidence bomb that Epstein might have setup in case of his death.  Doesn't seem to have happened.  Dang nab it.  

 

Using cameras is not an effective suicide watch. Camera screens would be in the locked guard area and even if they saw something concerning, unlocking doors from the guard tower, getting to the room, possibly needing to navigate steps, getting around prisoners in the day room, unlocking the prisoners door would seriously slow down a response. If they were watching multiple cameras, another prisoner would just commit suicide while the guards were responding to another cell. Also, screens may not let you see what's really happening. My prison guard family member told me they had a training after a prisoner committed suicide by sitting at his desk, tying something around his neck, and leaning forward until he strangled himself. He looked like he was just sitting at a desk and had fallen asleep!

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8 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

It's logical that we allow suspected criminals to kill themselves because 'they don't wanna' before trial ? OK.

It's not so much we "allow" as someone truly motivated can eventually find a way.  As noted previously prisoners do have rights and you can't keep someone under 24/7 surveillance without good cause. 

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1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

Using cameras is not an effective suicide watch. Camera screens would be in the locked guard area and even if they saw something concerning, unlocking doors from the guard tower, getting to the room, possibly needing to navigate steps, getting around prisoners in the day room, unlocking the prisoners door would seriously slow down a response. If they were watching multiple cameras, another prisoner would just commit suicide while the guards were responding to another cell. Also, screens may not let you see what's really happening. My prison guard family member told me they had a training after a prisoner committed suicide by sitting at his desk, tying something around his neck, and leaning forward until he strangled himself. He looked like he was just sitting at a desk and had fallen asleep!

If he were murdered by someone inside his cell (high security room, whatever) there would be evidence had there had been a camera. It may be impossible for the camera to act as a deterrent to suicide, but, it could have showed the investigators whether he was physically attacked (a lot of conspiracy theorists are saying that he was killed to prevent truths from leaking) so they could rule out murder and move on with the investigation. El Chapo and Epstein are high profile people who have affected a lot of lives - it is in the interest of justice towards their victims to have them in a cell/room with camera surveillance at the very least. I am sure that cameras are intrusive to these prisoners, but, when weighed against the suffering of their victims, it seems a small inconvenience. An ex-jail warden says (TV news) that she has seen Epstein walk around freely (sometimes naked, as well) and getting special treatment in the prison when he was previously put under arrest. This man has used connections in the past to move around a prison and could have done so this time as well.

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1 minute ago, mathnerd said:

If he were murdered by someone inside his cell (high security room, whatever) there would be evidence had there had been a camera. It may be impossible for the camera to act as a deterrent to suicide, but, it could have showed the investigators whether he was physically attacked (a lot of conspiracy theorists are saying that he was killed to prevent truths from leaking) so they could rule out murder and move on with the investigation. El Chapo and Epstein are high profile people who have affected a lot of lives - it is in the interest of justice towards their victims to have them in a cell/room with camera surveillance at the very least. I am sure that cameras are intrusive to these prisoners, but, when weighed against the suffering of their victims, it seems a small inconvenience. An ex-jail warden says (TV news) that she has seen Epstein walk around freely (sometimes naked, as well) and getting special treatment in the prison when he was previously put under arrest. This man has used connections in the past to move around a prison and could have done so this time as well.

 

Epstein had not yet been convicted.  Also his alleged victims have the same right to justice as all victims, regardless of the notoriety of the accused.  Being kept under 24/7 surveillance for reasons outside the usual protocol would correctly be challenged in court.

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