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Æthelthryth the Texan

Hive, Esq. - I have some questions re: Jefferey Epstein

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So he's on suicide watch but still manages to commit suicide. How convenient. The judge who originally sealed these documents turned up "suicide" in the Hudson River in April, 2017. How convenient.

I'm normally not a conspiracy theorist at all. On the other hand the kind of powerful people connected to this man likely have the means to make their "problem" go away.

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8 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

He shot himself twice in the back of the head.

(That is dark sarcasm for anyone who doesn't get it)

FWIW (in the event you want to update the details of your theory, LOL)  it's being reported as by hanging.

Very frustrating from the vantage point of victims who were hoping to finally have some closure. This isn't that.

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Welp, that was entirely unsurprising.  What a shame for the justice process and the information he took to the grave, though.  I hope the lawyers got something useful out of him before he ‘committed suicide’. But with so many powerful people at risk of going down with him.... yeah. I can’t muster any shock at all at this turn of events.

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11 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

FWIW (in the event you want to update the details of your theory, LOL)  it's being reported as by hanging.

Very frustrating from the vantage point of victims who were hoping to finally have some closure. This isn't that.

He hogtied himself then hung himself. Also had a couple skull fractures. And defensive wounds on his hands.

Definitely suicide.

XXX XXX

His poor victims.

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Law Twitter is saying suicide watch where he was is a joke and that the "watchers" aren't guards, but other inmates who have some sort of "inmate companion training" and that's it. Wonder if that's true.....

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"we haven't quite decided wether he committed suicide or died trying to escape".... 

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2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

So he's on suicide watch but still manages to commit suicide. How convenient. The judge who originally sealed these documents turned up "suicide" in the Hudson River in April, 2017. How convenient.

I'm normally not a conspiracy theorist at all. On the other hand the kind of powerful people connected to this man likely have the means to make their "problem" go away.

My FB feed is *filled* with people who do not normally go conspiracy theorist talking about this “suicide”. (That’s how they are writing it.) There’s already two memes up that I have seen saying, “If you’re surprised by Epstein’s suicide, just imagine how surprised *he* is!” 

I find myself fervently hoping his inclination to index and label will bring others to the fore. 

A girl can hope. 

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What the hell. At some point a preponderance of related events is no longer reasonably called coincidence. 👀

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I don't find it at all unlikely that, once he realized he wasn't going to be able to buy his way out of trouble this time he looked for another out.

And if he was blackmailing a lot of powerful men,  as seems likely, he would have been an idiot not to have set up some sort of data dump in the event of his untimely death. His testimony would not have been what convicted anyone anyway. 

 

I'm not saying it's impossible he was killed. But I don't think it's self-evident or even the most likely scenario.

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2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

So he's on suicide watch but still manages to commit suicide. How convenient. The judge who originally sealed these documents turned up "suicide" in the Hudson River in April, 2017. How convenient.

I'm normally not a conspiracy theorist at all. On the other hand the kind of powerful people connected to this man likely have the means to make their "problem" go away.

Link?

I tried some searches with Epstein and Sheila Abdus-Salaam and can't find this info.

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4 minutes ago, Danae said:

I don't find it at all unlikely that, once he realized he wasn't going to be able to buy his way out of trouble this time he looked for another out.

And if he was blackmailing a lot of powerful men,  as seems likely, he would have been an idiot not to have set up some sort of data dump in the event of his untimely death. His testimony would not have been what convicted anyone anyway. 

  

I'm not saying it's impossible he was killed. But I don't think it's self-evident or even the most likely scenario.

At a minimum it was a failure of the criminal justice system to protect someone who was or should have been on suicide watch.  So I do hope there is a full investigation.

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Also, Danny Casalaro, and free lance investigative journalist writing a piece on Jeff Epstein and in DC interviewing persons of interest related to his investigation, was found dead in a Martinsburg, Va hotel. His wrists were reportedly slashed 10 or more times each supposedly to make it look like a suicide, but all of his documents and his laptop are missing.

How convenient.

Edited by Faith-manor
I had the timeline wrong. It was several years ago that he "suicided" while investigating Epstein
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2 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Also, Danny Casalaro, and free lance investigative journalist writing a piece on Jeff Epstein and in DC interviewing persons of interest related to his investigation, was found dead in a Martinsburg, Va hotel this week. His wrists were reportedly slashed 10 or more times each supposedly to make it look like a suicide, but all of his documents and his laptop are missing.

How convenient.

Do you  have a media link on this?  I can't find anything about this?

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3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Also, Danny Casalaro, and free lance investigative journalist writing a piece on Jeff Epstein and in DC interviewing persons of interest related to his investigation, was found dead in a Martinsburg, Va hotel this week. His wrists were reportedly slashed 10 or more times each supposedly to make it look like a suicide, but all of his documents and his laptop are missing.

How convenient.

Uh...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Casolaro

 

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10 minutes ago, Danae said:

I don't find it at all unlikely that, once he realized he wasn't going to be able to buy his way out of trouble this time he looked for another out.

And if he was blackmailing a lot of powerful men,  as seems likely, he would have been an idiot not to have set up some sort of data dump in the event of his untimely death. His testimony would not have been what convicted anyone anyway. 

 

I'm not saying it's impossible he was killed. But I don't think it's self-evident or even the most likely scenario.

 

Sure. Cowardly pos could just as likely thought like that. But this was a HUGE case and he was supposed to be on suicide watch. So who is completely incompetent at their job or was convinced to not take every effort to keep him alive?

At some point engineered incompetence isn’t actually incompetence. It’s shrewd thinking ahead on the part of game players. And that’s not coincidence either. 

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I’m not a conspiracy theorist usually. But geez.  The string mapping is getting nuts on these cases.  Patterson and Koontz combined can’t make up crap like this stuff.

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Whatever the circumstances around Epstein's death, the attention of both the SDNY prosecutors who brought charges against Epstein himself, and of the investigations that AG Bill Barr just announced he will initiate into the apparent suicide, will turn to Epstein associates named in the SDNY criminal and other civil cases related to him.  

The farthest along of the civil cases is that between Virginia Giuffre against Ghislaine Maxwell, who allegedly operated for many years as Epstein's main procurer of young girls.  It was the Giuffre-Maxwell case -- not the criminal case for which Epstein was detained -- whose judge unsealed a tremendous trove of documents yesterday.  Maxwell -- long a highly visible regular at high society events -- seems recently to have vanished from the public spotlight.

Adam Klasfeld, one of the best of the SDNY court watchers, whom many of those of us who frequent the politics group (which has followed Epstein's case since the Miami Herald broke it back open last November; come on over) follow, made an interesting observation about what comes next:

 

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14 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Do you  have a media link on this?  I can't find anything about this?

Wiki has it. I had the timeline wrong. It isn't recent. Someone posted it to me with the wrong dates. So I've edited my post.

So, potentially not so closely related to his current incarceration, but it does beg questions about Epstein's suicide, when the judge who originally sealed the documents was found in the river.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/25/judge-jeffrey-epstein-case-dies-1292394

It all seems too convenient. But sorry about getting the dates wrong on Danny C's death.

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NYT and others are reporting he was not on suicide watch. Which of course leads to the questions as to why he wasn't on suicide watch.

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8 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Whatever the circumstances around Epstein's death, the attention of both the SDNY prosecutors who brought charges against Epstein himself, and of the investigations that AG Bill Barr just announced he will initiate into the apparent suicide, will turn to Epstein associates named in the SDNY criminal and other civil cases related to him.  

The farthest along of the civil cases is that between Virginia Giuffre against Ghislaine Maxwell, who allegedly operated for many years as Epstein's main procurer of young girls.  It was the Giuffre-Maxwell case -- not the criminal case for which Epstein was detained -- whose judge unsealed a tremendous trove of documents yesterday.  Maxwell -- long a highly visible regular at high society events -- seems recently to have vanished from the public spotlight.

Adam Klasfeld, one of the best of the SDNY court watchers, whom many of those of us who frequent the politics group (which has followed Epstein's case since the Miami Herald broke it back open last November; come on over) follow, made an interesting observation about what comes next:

 

This is the only boon.

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6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This is the only boon.

Well, and that he'll never rape young girls again.

Which is no small thing, but still not justice or closure.

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9 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Wiki has it. I had the timeline wrong. It isn't recent. Someone posted it to me with the wrong dates. So I've edited my post.

So, potentially not so closely related to his current incarceration, but it does beg questions about Epstein's suicide, when the judge who originally sealed the documents was found in the river.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/25/judge-jeffrey-epstein-case-dies-1292394

It all seems too convenient. But sorry about getting the dates wrong on Danny C's death.

The Danny Casolaro Wikipedia page does not mention Epstein at all. CAsolaro died in 1991.

You also haven't linked your source between the connection of abdus-Salaam and Epstein.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Casolaro

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10 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Wiki has it. I had the timeline wrong. It isn't recent. Someone posted it to me with the wrong dates. So I've edited my post.

So, potentially not so closely related to his current incarceration, but it does beg questions about Epstein's suicide, when the judge who originally sealed the documents was found in the river.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/25/judge-jeffrey-epstein-case-dies-1292394

It all seems too convenient. But sorry about getting the dates wrong on Danny C's death.

the judge in this link was 96. doesn't specify cause, though at that age natural would be very likely.  unfortunate timing.

I did find the judge who died of an "apparent" suicide/maybe foul play in april? 2017 - in the Hudson river, but couldn't find any connection to Epstein.

(different news links say different things, and retractions about suicide are made.  the story kept changing during the weeks aftrewards)

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2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

the judge in this link was 96. doesn't specify cause, though at that age natural would be very likely.  unfortunate timing.

I did find the judge who died of an "apparent" suicide/maybe foul play in april? 2017 - in the Hudson river, but couldn't find any connection to Epstein.

(different news links say different things, and retractions about suicide are made.  the story kept changing during the weeks aftrewards)

I am trying to do a translation but have to get to work. My sister sent the link to the 2017 judge and Epstein - believe it or not, authorities in France were rather interested in the man (NOT SHOCKING) - and it was in French. I read French. Gah....I can't translated it very well. I will try to get back to that after work. Maybe I made an error when I was reading it in French, but it appeared to show a link to the 2017 judge and Epstein.

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5 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I am trying to do a translation but have to get to work. My sister sent the link to the 2017 judge and Epstein - believe it or not, authorities in France were rather interested in the man (NOT SHOCKING) - and it was in French. I read French. Gah....I can't translated it very well. I will try to get back to that after work. Maybe I made an error when I was reading it in French, but it appeared to show a link to the 2017 judge and Epstein.

So French newspapers mention Abdus-Salaam and Epstein together? 

And you translated it wrong? 

You can just post the link to the article. Someone else here can translate it, I am sure. 

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22 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I am trying to do a translation but have to get to work. My sister sent the link to the 2017 judge and Epstein - believe it or not, authorities in France were rather interested in the man (NOT SHOCKING) - and it was in French. I read French. Gah....I can't translated it very well. I will try to get back to that after work. Maybe I made an error when I was reading it in French, but it appeared to show a link to the 2017 judge and Epstein.

Possible.   I read a comment elsewhere how the judge who sealed the records committed "suicide ".  No link or name.

 

Don't remember if that one mentioned the Hudson or not.

Edited by gardenmom5

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How could he not have been on suicide watch? He tried to kill himself just last month! I can believe that suicide watch is a joke, but he must've been on suicide watch in the first place. The NYTimes etc. must be mistaken there.

Edited by Tanaqui
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6 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Welp, that was entirely unsurprising.  What a shame for the justice process and the information he took to the grave, though.  I hope the lawyers got something useful out of him before he ‘committed suicide’. But with so many powerful people at risk of going down with him.... yeah. I can’t muster any shock at all at this turn of events.

I agree with you. A few of my friends already predicted that this man will never face justice because of the many powerful people who might go down with him. And that prediction came true so early in the case.

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42 minutes ago, stephanier.1765 said:

Maybe it was a jailhouse justice type of "suicide"?

 

I've seen some tweets from credible sources that say he was in the Special Housing Unit, which is for keeping inmates like him separate from the general prisoner population. Obviously at this point we don't know if what we're hearing is true or not, but . . . FWIW.

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6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I've seen some tweets from credible sources that say he was in the Special Housing Unit, which is for keeping inmates like him separate from the general prisoner population. Obviously at this point we don't know if what we're hearing is true or not, but . . . FWIW.

That's what I'm seeing, too — that he was purposely taken OFF suicide watch and was being kept in solitary in the section where they are also keeping El Chapo, and where guards are supposed to do periodic but not constant monitoring.

So a super high-profile prisoner with dirt on a whole lot of very rich and powerful people, who had just recently attempted suicide (or was the victim of an attack designed to make it look like suicide) was not only purposely taken OFF suicide watch, he was put in a cell where no one else could see what he was doing in between the guard checks, and he had access to some kind of material that could be used for hanging. 

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The reports I'm seeing now say he was taken off suicide watch after a psychiatric evaluation. That just raises more questions to  me. Did his attorneys fight to get him off the suicide watch? This was a smart man. What were the credentials of the psych? Why wouldn't the psych be suspicious of his statements given his ability to FAKE his way through the eval? It's truly cray. I think a lot of people are happy he's dead. Richardson, Dershowitz, Prince Andrew and others. This does free up ALL evidence gathered in the search of his home to be used against other alleged co-conspirators and rapists tho.

Edited by Sneezyone
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4 hours ago, Danae said:

I don't find it at all unlikely that, once he realized he wasn't going to be able to buy his way out of trouble this time he looked for another out.

And if he was blackmailing a lot of powerful men,  as seems likely, he would have been an idiot not to have set up some sort of data dump in the event of his untimely death. His testimony would not have been what convicted anyone anyway. 

 

I'm not saying it's impossible he was killed. But I don't think it's self-evident or even the most likely scenario.

This. To me Occam's razor says suicide. I do think there needs to be a full investigation as to how it was allowed to happen but I don't see black helicopters flying over the jail. 

Earlier in the week Florida's governor announced that state law enforcement (FDLE) would take over the Florida investigation. This was done at the request of Palm Beach County's sheriff, The sheriff's office still plans (planned? will it still happen?) an internal investigation. He should never have been allowed to plead down and certainly shouldn't have been allowed out for 12 hours a day during his too-short sentence.

Edited by Lady Florida.
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4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Also, Danny Casalaro, and free lance investigative journalist writing a piece on Jeff Epstein and in DC interviewing persons of interest related to his investigation, was found dead in a Martinsburg, Va hotel. His wrists were reportedly slashed 10 or more times each supposedly to make it look like a suicide, but all of his documents and his laptop are missing.

How convenient.

4 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Do you  have a media link on this?  I can't find anything about this?

I have found a link.   he died in 1991.  while he was close to releasing a story - it wasn't about Epstein.

eta: and yes, his family believe he was murdered.  embalmed without their permission before an autopsy could be performed.  a professional cleaning crew in the hotel room the next day.... a maid claiming to have seen two bloody towels before it was cleaned....

Edited by gardenmom5
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39 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That's what I'm seeing, too — that he was purposely taken OFF suicide watch and was being kept in solitary in the section where they are also keeping El Chapo, and where guards are supposed to do periodic but not constant monitoring.

So a super high-profile prisoner with dirt on a whole lot of very rich and powerful people, who had just recently attempted suicide (or was the victim of an attack designed to make it look like suicide) was not only purposely taken OFF suicide watch, he was put in a cell where no one else could see what he was doing in between the guard checks, and he had access to some kind of material that could be used for hanging. 

how convenient...

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I did see a comment elsewhere from someone who lives in Vegas.  After Epsteins  arrest, wanting to put a bet on how long before committing "suicide ".  Supposedly they wouldn't take it as they would  "go broke".

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I saw that Epstein claimed to someone close to him that someone was trying to murder him. Not sure that was the previous "suicide" attempt or something different.

Even if suicide was what happened, it seems like the guards were not following protocol (which I read was checking on prisoners in person every 30 minutes). Sounded like no one checked on him for most of the night?

Very suspicious. At the very least, someone helped him along?

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5 hours ago, Danae said:

And if he was blackmailing a lot of powerful men,  as seems likely, he would have been an idiot not to have set up some sort of data dump in the event of his untimely death. 

 

And speaking conspiracy theory, this bit of Danae’s observation seems to be the thought that is fueling the “he’s not really dead” items I’m seeing on social media. 

 

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1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

I saw that Epstein claimed to someone close to him that someone was trying to murder him. Not sure that was the previous "suicide" attempt or something different.

Even if suicide was what happened, it seems like the guards were not following protocol (which I read was checking on prisoners in person every 30 minutes). Sounded like no one checked on him for most of the night?

Very suspicious. At the very least, someone helped him along?

Maybe the conspiracy is that he paid off someone to look the other way. What a mess all around.

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6 hours ago, EmseB said:

NYT and others are reporting he was not on suicide watch. Which of course leads to the questions as to why he wasn't on suicide watch.

Because it is extremely expensive to keep people on suicide watch.  It’s generally considered a waste of manpower. 

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The only thing that shocks me about this is people still hoping that somehow justice will prevail.

It was never going to. 

Every institution is rotten at the top. It's not a trial and incarceration that Epstein and co were worried about. I'd be surprised if they even gave 'justice for the peasants' more than a passing sarcastic comment. The files will be lost, the media will forget, any persistent reporters will also be suicided, there may be a scapegoat or two (at the moment looks like Ghislane Maxwell. Which I find, interesting, in that instead of any of the child raping men, a woman will probably get all the blame...)

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8 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I've seen some tweets from credible sources that say he was in the Special Housing Unit, which is for keeping inmates like him separate from the general prisoner population. Obviously at this point we don't know if what we're hearing is true or not, but . . . FWIW.

It would follow standard policy.  

Being on suicide watch is usually temporary.  The prisoner is kept in a fairly bare cell under constant supervision.  Usually the more restrictive conditions last only a few days (much longer without good reason and issues with cruel and unusual punishment will pop up). The suicide watch is also very expensive to maintain and affects staffing. The next phase is usually to put the prisoner in a SHU.  Check ins are again about every 15-20 minutes.  It is not common but also not unusual for someone to commit suicide in a SHU.

My guess is we will find out whomever is in charge of psychology services and 1-2 others signed off on his transfer to a SHU.

It's *possible* someone killed Epstein.  It's more likely he committed suicide.  Considering the rumors about him had existed for some time, my guess is anyone powerful enough to get to him in a federal prison would have done it long ago.

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5 hours ago, ChocolateReignRemix said:

It would follow standard policy.  

Being on suicide watch is usually temporary.  The prisoner is kept in a fairly bare cell under constant supervision.  Usually the more restrictive conditions last only a few days (much longer without good reason and issues with cruel and unusual punishment will pop up). The suicide watch is also very expensive to maintain and affects staffing. The next phase is usually to put the prisoner in a SHU.  Check ins are again about every 15-20 minutes.  It is not common but also not unusual for someone to commit suicide in a SHU.

My guess is we will find out whomever is in charge of psychology services and 1-2 others signed off on his transfer to a SHU.

It's *possible* someone killed Epstein.  It's more likely he committed suicide.  Considering the rumors about him had existed for some time, my guess is anyone powerful enough to get to him in a federal prison would have done it long ago.

Yes. My point was that if he was in the SHU it's probably much less likely to be a case of "jailhouse justice" because he was segregated from the general population.

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On 8/10/2019 at 8:41 AM, unsinkable said:

He shot himself twice in the back of the head.

(That is dark sarcasm for anyone who doesn't get it)

 And the threw the gun 50' away.   🙂

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4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes. My point was that if he was in the SHU it's probably much less likely to be a case of "jailhouse justice" because he was segregated from the general population.

 

Agree. My main point was that I believe the sources saying he was in a SHU as that would be expected roughly 2 weeks after the suicide attempt.  Has this happened within in 48 hours I would be very skeptical.

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19 hours ago, LMD said:

The only thing that shocks me about this is people still hoping that somehow justice will prevail.

It was never going to. 

Every institution is rotten at the top. It's not a trial and incarceration that Epstein and co were worried about. I'd be surprised if they even gave 'justice for the peasants' more than a passing sarcastic comment. The files will be lost, the media will forget, any persistent reporters will also be suicided, there may be a scapegoat or two (at the moment looks like Ghislane Maxwell. Which I find, interesting, in that instead of any of the child raping men, a woman will probably get all the blame...)

just pointing out that Ghislane Maxwell, far from being a scapegoat, has far reaching roles in this case and has been named as a person who sexually assaulted them by more than one woman (the victims presumably were underaged and seeking employment when the assaults happened). Though I agree with you that many men who took advantage of underage women will go scot-free in this case,  Maxwell is not without blame either. 

 

ETA: Ghislane Maxwell settled both the cases of sexual assault field against her (and had the documents sealed?)

Edited by mathnerd
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Well NYT is reporting typical protocol was not followed for Epstein prior to his death.  And according to this article, after allegedly trying to commit suicide was deemed no longer a threat to himself in SIX days.  Wow.    

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/nyregion/epstein-death-manhattan-correctional-center.html

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26 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well NYT is reporting typical protocol was not followed for Epstein prior to his death.  And according to this article, after allegedly trying to commit suicide was deemed no longer a threat to himself in SIX days.  Wow.    

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/nyregion/epstein-death-manhattan-correctional-center.html

something is rotten in Denmark.....

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