Does this sound like enough? (too much?) for learning a language?

[Noreen Claire]

DS10 is going to start studying Portuguese this fall. I am going to try and learn along with him, though I have started already in order to get ahead of him a bit before he starts. FWIW, I had French in high school and Spanish in college, but I have never been anywhere near fluent in anything other than English. DS10 and I have been studying Latin for two years, and will continue along while we add Portuguese.

WHAT WE HAVE:

textbook: Bom Dia! This includes a workbook with written exercises and a pronunciation CD.

podcast/YouTube channel: I have been listening to the Portuguese Lab podcast, starting with the beginner lessons; lessons are between 7 and 15 minutes, so far. I found that they have the same lessons available on YouTube that include the words on the screen as they are being spoken. I am not sure which would be better for DS; the YouTube portal may be too distracting for him, so I could download the transcripts and print them for him instead.

audiobooks: Pimsleur (European) Portuguese lessons are available through both Audible and my library. 

books: We have a Portuguese phrase book and The Usbourne First Thousand Words in Portuguese picture book. I will borrow picture books, picture dictionaries, and English-Portuguese dictionaries from the library as needed, and will buy a Eng-Port dictionary if we find one that we really like.

misc.: My SIL' s mother gets weekly/monthly local news in a Portuguese-language newspaper, and she has been putting them aside for us.  I have set up a sub-account on Netflix that will show us children's programs in Portuguese, and am sure that I can borrow Portuguese movies, either dubbed or from Portugal, from the library. My SIL is going to be our conversation tutor.

THE PLAN: We will study Portuguese 6 days a week, alternating 45 minute and 15 minute lessons. On the three days with a longer period, we will work in the textbook/workbook, listening to the pronunciation CD as needed. If there is time left after finishing a section, he can move to one of audio options (podcast, Pimsleur, Netflix). On the days with a short lesson, we will start with a picture book or a quick vocabulary review, and then he can listen to a short audio option. I will make plans to see my SIL twice a week to have conversations in Portuguese and to ask questions that may come up.

I am currently reading the book Becoming Fluent, and am also studying for my sheltered English instruction exam, so I can hopefully use what I learn to help along the process.

Any input from those who have successfully learned and/or taught a foreign language is greatly appreciated! Thanks.

[Miss Tick]

It sounds good! I think the single biggest thing you can do for language learning is just to do something every day!

One thing I don't see in your resource list is something for vocabulary review. Some people like Quizlet, which has a couple of game types. I prefer Ankiapp which is a free (for Android) electronic app that incorporates spaced repetition, so cards don't get lost in the shuffle, but you don't spend time flipping through cards you already know. It is a bit intimidating to get started, but really fairly straightforward once you have it set up (see below for help). Another option for this might be Duolingo. You can't customize the vocabulary, but they really use (and overuse) a very small number of words, so you learn those words, at least, very well!

You might want to keep an eye out for kids' stories that your sister can read. Listening to the language can help with ear training. I have a few short, sorry books recorded I my phone so that we can sometimes "Read along".

Lastly, many of us on the board have read and liked the book "Fluent Forever", you might want to check if your library has it. The author has a blog that has a lot of useful information. I see he has pronunciation trainers for Portuguese which are nice, short videos where he makes explicit comparisons to English for each sound. He also has really detailed, ready to follow instructions for setting up Anki. There is also an app available, but it is way to new, and still in development - I can't recommend it at this point.

 

 

[maize]

You might consider adding in duolingo practice.

[Noreen Claire]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

You might consider adding in duolingo practice.

We are staying away from Duolingo for the moment, as it has Brazilian, not European, Portuguese.  

 

9 minutes ago, SusanC said:

One thing I don't see in your resource list is something for vocabulary review. 

I might buy a starter set of physical vocab cards to keep in the car or in my bag, so we can practice outside the house. 

[Noreen Claire]

44 minutes ago, SusanC said:

Lastly, many of us on the board have read and liked the book "Fluent Forever", you might want to check if your library has it.

Done. Thank you!

[EmilyGF]

I've been diving deep into language learning this year. Since November, I've gone from unable to understand an adult pointing at a picture of Queen Elizabeth and saying  "Who is this?" in Hebrew to reading an adult book of short stories as well as Harry Potter. I want to put another plug out for Anki and spaced repetition flash cards. If you schedule even 10-15  minutes per day for flash cards, you'll find much better retention. Fluent Forever teaches you to make flashcards that are efficient.

One big point in Fluent Forever is to base your vocabulary around words that are used a lot, which is opposite from how most textbooks are structured. Two of my kids are learning languages and have text books right now. A chapter may have twenty words about clothing, and while that is nice, I guess, if you want to go buy clothes in a foreign country, that isn't likely. So you may want to give yourself freedom to strike useless/repetitive vocabulary from the book and focus on words you encounter in daily life. 

I think it is enough. Frankly, it is SHOCKING how little schools expect a kid to get through in a year in foreign language class. Sigh. My son had been self-teaching Spanish for 6 months when he met the foreign language teacher at the gifted/accelerated high school he'll be attending next fall. He was told he'll probably be placed into Spanish 3!!! 

[Renai]

As mentioned before, you get more out of language learning the more you use it. I teach my families to set up a routine in which to use the language daily. For example, choose one meal time, and practice speaking anything and everything you can concerning that meal time. The key is being consistent. This is why I am hosting a 28 Day Family Language Challenge, so families can help one another be accountable to stay consistent. 

Being immersed in the language several hours a week is important to absorb the sounds of the language and general exposure. This exposure can come from songs, shows, movies, homework, interaction with others, etc. The resources you currently have can be a starting point for gathering language you can use in a particular routine on a daily basis. Pimsleur is good for learning sentence frames that can be helpful to create other sentences while learning new vocabulary. Make the resources work for you!

Here's an example of what it looks like in our house (my daughter is 8). We are bilingual English/Spanish (I teach Spanish), but we are learning Mandarin. Our routine is Mandarin Morning, and we talk about breakfast things while we're serving and eating breakfast. We are also watching a show in Mandarin and discussing what we understand is being said. (We watched the series once with subtitles to understand the story. Now we are watching without titles to absorb and understand the language more.) She takes an online immersive online class once a week, but that is only 25 minutes. She is learning sentence frames and vocabulary in that class. Some of it can be integrated in our morning routine, and (due to the Challenge), I am getting more consistent in using these in the routine. I realized the other day that we are not even getting 10 hours of exposure a week anymore (which I teach as a minimum), so this upcoming Challenge Week 2, that will be the focus.

As stated before, consistency is key, and to be consistent you need a plan. Plan a few more listening activities, choose a daily routine in which you speak daily, and go for it!

 

[maize]

4 hours ago, Renai said:

As mentioned before, you get more out of language learning the more you use it. I teach my families to set up a routine in which to use the language daily. For example, choose one meal time, and practice speaking anything and everything you can concerning that meal time. The key is being consistent. This is why I am hosting a 28 Day Family Language Challenge, so families can help one another be accountable to stay consistent. 

Being immersed in the language several hours a week is important to absorb the sounds of the language and general exposure. This exposure can come from songs, shows, movies, homework, interaction with others, etc. The resources you currently have can be a starting point for gathering language you can use in a particular routine on a daily basis. Pimsleur is good for learning sentence frames that can be helpful to create other sentences while learning new vocabulary. Make the resources work for you!

Here's an example of what it looks like in our house (my daughter is 8). We are bilingual English/Spanish (I teach Spanish), but we are learning Mandarin. Our routine is Mandarin Morning, and we talk about breakfast things while we're serving and eating breakfast. We are also watching a show in Mandarin and discussing what we understand is being said. (We watched the series once with subtitles to understand the story. Now we are watching without titles to absorb and understand the language more.) She takes an online immersive online class once a week, but that is only 25 minutes. She is learning sentence frames and vocabulary in that class. Some of it can be integrated in our morning routine, and (due to the Challenge), I am getting more consistent in using these in the routine. I realized the other day that we are not even getting 10 hours of exposure a week anymore (which I teach as a minimum), so this upcoming Challenge Week 2, that will be the focus.

As stated before, consistency is key, and to be consistent you need a plan. Plan a few more listening activities, choose a daily routine in which you speak daily, and go for it!

 

What online Mandarin class do you do?

Do you have other Mandarin resources we to recommend? My 9 and 6 year olds have been in a Mandarin immersion school but will be homeschooling in the fall.

[Renai]

1 hour ago, maize said:

What online Mandarin class do you do?

Do you have other Mandarin resources we to recommend? My 9 and 6 year olds have been in a Mandarin immersion school but will be homeschooling in the fall.

My daughter takes classes with Lingobus. They have both varying levels of CSL and heritage language classes. It is full immersion. The link is in my signature (a referral link that gives a free demo class and two free classes). Besides the live classes, they offer a downloadable workbook and various resources like online books, but many parents seem to supplement (which I note in the 3rd paragraph).

I take classes with a tutor I met through an Outschool group. She teaches classes to children on OS (my daughter has taken a couple of one-time classes), and does private lessons individually, in small groups, or family groups off of OS. I've taken her small group classes and learned a lot with her. She spoke a bit too quickly for my daughter, but I like her for ME. I'll pick back up in the fall. My daughter will be taking a character-writing class with her this upcoming Thursday: https://outschool.com/classes/graphic-introduction-of-basic-chinese-characters-being-created-40-minutes-eymKNydk?sectionUid=bf5d5229-e08a-442e-b256-5a884982c333#usWYh7px2U . And just to throw in another option, my daughter has taken a class with this teacher as well: https://outschool.com/teachers/Xiaoling-Hong#usWYh7px2U . She teaches using a native text which uses poems/riddles. It was a great class.

Most of the other ideas and resources I get through an FB group for Lingobus parents. There is a (long) thread on there that has a wealth of resource information for supplementing Lingobus for their kids. If you join it, I can tag you in the thread. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1704309319593577/ I've seen mentioned several apps, websites with books and activities, print books/workbooks, etc. 

We listen to/watch Little Fox Chinese on Roku. There is also a website with the same videos, vocabulary flashcards, quizzes. We watch Chinese programs on Netflix, and some Chinese Elmo show on Youtube periodically (I can't remember the name). I follow Fortune Cookie Mom's blog, who also has a TpT store with both traditional and simplified Chinese products. I also follow Mandarin Mama's blog. I have yet to incorporate all these activities and resources, but as I get the routine down, I will be able to integrate more. They have free things too. I want to start labeling things in Chinese around the house, and incorporate more games, I just haven't got there yet.

For me, I am doing the 30-day challenge on YoYo Chinese's website. They offer a few units free from each of their courses. I am in level 1 of both their beginner Chinese and character classes. I also am doing a language course and a culture course through Coursera. I have spoken with tutors on italki.com as well. 

Wow. This got long. You can feel free to PM me for more info. 🙂 

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

A few additional ideas:

- On the 15 minute days, I would consider swapping an audio component for the visual- probably pimsleur, because it's guided pronunciation is so good.  

- Even if you don't use ANKI, which bored us to tears, look on the Fluent Forever website for the word lists.  These are available to purchase pretty cheaply, and are a download which include (and here I'll make up some numbers) something like 50 pages of 10 words, each with a nice illustration for "point-say" type activities.  These word lists are based on usage frequency and are therefore superior to entirely theme-based vocabs taught in texts, though i recommend going with both frequency and theme based lessons.  

- We have had huge success with German by really, really, REALLY strictly adhering to that 15-30 minutes, every single day (well, 6x per week or so).  My son just took a German standardized test that was required by our education system for his school year.  He missed 3 points out of a possible 75, and it included a writing section and short response sections, in addition to multiple-choice type problems.  The average for our state was over 20 points below his score.  Why?  My theory is that most of the primary school teachers hate teaching it, and have farmed it out to one teacher who rotates between rooms, and because of that, this teacher is often scheduled for 1-2x a week, for 1-2 hours.  That is NOT how to learn a language!!!  Small bites, every day.  

- The other big lesson I learned from Fluent Forever is to read in the target language as soon as possible.  So in a year, perhaps less, start looking for simple books.  After ANKI, reading seems to be the single most efficient way to expose yourself to a language.  Series are a great choice, because authors tend to have their own set vocabulary list, so the more you read by the same author, the more comfortable you get with their natural vocabulary. Translated works are fine, it's more important to find a series that captures interest than to read something "originally Portugese" during the learning phase.  

 

[madteaparty]

4 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

A few additional ideas:

- On the 15 minute days, I would consider swapping an audio component for the visual- probably pimsleur, because it's guided pronunciation is so good.  

- Even if you don't use ANKI, which bored us to tears, look on the Fluent Forever website for the word lists.  These are available to purchase pretty cheaply, and are a download which include (and here I'll make up some numbers) something like 50 pages of 10 words, each with a nice illustration for "point-say" type activities.  These word lists are based on usage frequency and are therefore superior to entirely theme-based vocabs taught in texts, though i recommend going with both frequency and theme based lessons.  

- We have had huge success with German by really, really, REALLY strictly adhering to that 15-30 minutes, every single day (well, 6x per week or so).  My son just took a German standardized test that was required by our education system for his school year.  He missed 3 points out of a possible 75, and it included a writing section and short response sections, in addition to multiple-choice type problems.  The average for our state was over 20 points below his score.  Why?  My theory is that most of the primary school teachers hate teaching it, and have farmed it out to one teacher who rotates between rooms, and because of that, this teacher is often scheduled for 1-2x a week, for 1-2 hours.  That is NOT how to learn a language!!!  Small bites, every day.  

- The other big lesson I learned from Fluent Forever is to read in the target language as soon as possible.  So in a year, perhaps less, start looking for simple books.  After ANKI, reading seems to be the single most efficient way to expose yourself to a language.  Series are a great choice, because authors tend to have their own set vocabulary list, so the more you read by the same author, the more comfortable you get with their natural vocabulary. Translated works are fine, it's more important to find a series that captures interest than to read something "originally Portugese" during the learning phase.  

 

This is fascinating to read. I haven’t been so good with textbooks with DD but we are getting our 15-20 min (sometimes spread across the day)... and we are reading (well, having the iPad read to us) one of 10 same Famille Choupignon books every single freaking day 😉 I’m off to look at those word lists you all recommend. Thank you!

ETA are you buying these word lists on the fluent forever ap?

Edited July 7, 2019 by madteaparty

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

This is fascinating to read. I haven’t been so good with textbooks with DD but we are getting our 15-20 min (sometimes spread across the day)... and we are reading (well, having the iPad read to us) one of 10 same Famille Choupignon books every single freaking day 😉 I’m off to look at those word lists you all recommend. Thank you!

ETA are you buying these word lists on the fluent forever ap?

 

It has been a couple years, but I bought ours directly from the website and it was a pdf download.  I've stopped receiving emails from FF, but I know the app is supposed to have really come a long way.  

I used to be a big duolingo fan, but I'm not anymore.  If you are going to use an app, I'd probably cough up the dough and go with the FF app.  

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Here's the word lists: https://fluent-forever.com/product/most-awesome-word-lists-ever-seen/

While on the website I took a look at the app... if we didn't already have an established system... I might consider trying it out.  I might still consider trying it out.  😂  No!  STOP LOOKING AT SHINY THINGS, MONICA!!! 

[Miss Tick]

1 hour ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

I might consider trying it out.

I have a free trial going, and I feel like it still needs a little more time to mature. I like that there is virtually no English and I love the ear training cards (do you hear lo or l'ho?) However, they are using the same files for that as I already had in my downloaded FF Anki cards. They also have the pronunciation videos built in to the software that I have previously watched on his website after buying a word list, so again that doesn't feel new.

The best part is where you choose a sentence from three choices to help learn new vocab and you choose a picture for each card set. During review I'm seeing a lot of repetition (5 of the same card in a row!) and I haven't decided if this is just because I'm too new to have enough cards or if there is some spaced repetition magic that I'm too new for...

[Noreen Claire]

How does the Fluent Forever pronunciation trainer work? Do I need to have the app? It looks like the app has a monthly fee.

Sadly, their word list is only in Brazilian Portuguese, but the pronunciation trainer has European.

[Miss Tick]

When I bought our set we got access to the videos, which are short and effective, and then instructions to download the trainers into our Anki deck. The instructions were detailed and very complete. But, this was before the app came out. His video about pronunciation trainers is vague about whether you can still get the Anki deck or whether you can only use the app. I would shoot them an email and ask if you will receive the Anki instructions as an option.

[madteaparty]

I downloaded the app and signed up for a trial and I have to say, maybe it’s user error, but the app seems glitchy to me.certainly not Duolingo quality. Like, the photos of the word being pronounced wouldn’t load, etc.

I'm going to hunt down these word lists you ladies speak of and go from there.