Wanna talk about your plans for the new school year?

[PeterPan]

I'm going to start us up back soon, so I need to get my butt in gear. Between my own entropy and sense of overwhelm, it's just kinda easier to float, sigh. But really, I need to get my vision, get a plan, get it going. 

Are you planned out in some fashion, even a framework? Anything new or interesting you're trying? Something innovative or likely to flop? 

[Lecka]

We are having a math summer.  My son (10 1/2) is through Lesson 7 of Saxon Intermediate 3, and we are also doing skip-counting and multiplication facts.  

For reading — and I got this idea from you! — he is reading his math questions as much as possible.  I am taking a break from having him read other than that.

I still read to him at bed-time.

He will go to ESY starting next week, too, and he will do some reading there.  We went for the Open House today and I think it seems good.  I saw the class list and know most of the kids already.  

Getting the Saxon done is not easy.  It may not seem like much, but I am pretty satisfied with how much he is doing.  I hope he will pick up some steam with it and not have it be something where I have to encourage him with every question!  

I tried today to walk away when there were 3 questions in a row I thought he could do by himself, but it is rare for me to even try to do that right now.  But it is early days and I think when we are more in a routine it will go more easily.  

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

Getting the Saxon done is not easy.  It may not seem like much, but I am pretty satisfied with how much he is doing.  I hope he will pick up some steam with it and not have it be something where I have to encourage him with every question!  

I think I'm going to try Saxon as a spine, too! We have a stash of old books and workbooks at school. It seems manageable and not too overwhelming (fingers crossed). 

[Lecka]

They used Saxon as a special needs program in our previous school district.  

Right now with knowing my son and knowing he is just at a point to be reading as needed — I am sure some kids were needing all the reading read to them.  But that is not the end of the world.

And I’m pretty pleased with how the reading is going for my soon.  It’s not too hard but he does need some help here and there for sure.  

The review aspect is great!!!!!

But I am needing to add in math facts practice for sure, even though it does include some review.  I know that is pretty common but it is not “open and go, do the next thing” like the rest.

At this point too — I have kind-of given up on “a quarter of” for telling time.  I am just giving him the answer and reminding him, when those come up.  He is getting “half past.”  I am still trying for “a quarter after.” 

I am also skipping Celsius with him (which there is not a lot of at all).  

My goal was not to skip anything, but looking ahead I don’t think I will be skipping much at all.

I have always skipped fractions with him before, but this is it, I don’t want to get to where he has gone so far with multiplying but not done any fractions.  But that is what I am prone to doing.  

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

I have always skipped fractions with him before

RightStart finally has their wooden fractions puzzle back in stock. It's the greatest thing ever. https://store.rightstartmath.com/rightstart-fraction-puzzle/  With ds I played fraction war every day, with each of us turning over two cards, forming the fraction with the puzzle pieces, physically comparing them, and then declaring the winner. As he got better, then he could start to make equivalent fractions and think through those relationships. Since your ds is learning multiplication, it will make forming equivalent fractions go better.

[Lecka]

That looks great!

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, Lecka said:

That looks great!

Yes. It's very nicely made, and you'll notice it has all the fractions, not skipping. So the dc can really get a sense of relationships. 

We played that really simple game (flip two cards, form a fraction, how many parts in the whole, how many of those parts do you have) and comparing over and over for several months. It got us a lot of mileage. 

The mistake (theoretically) systems make with fractions is teaching using relationships that can't be compared and that aren't consistent. So parts of a circle, etc. aren't as logical as the bars, at least if you buy into Cotter's thinking. I'm pretty sure that's where Ronit Bird went with it too. So the RS fraction puzzle is a conceptually sound tool. Then just extend the thinking to other situations to generalize.

[Kanin]

17 hours ago, Lecka said:

They used Saxon as a special needs program in our previous school district.  

 

That's neat - I hope it works well for me. 

[kbutton]

17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yes. It's very nicely made, and you'll notice it has all the fractions, not skipping. So the dc can really get a sense of relationships. 

We played that really simple game (flip two cards, form a fraction, how many parts in the whole, how many of those parts do you have) and comparing over and over for several months. It got us a lot of mileage. 

The mistake (theoretically) systems make with fractions is teaching using relationships that can't be compared and that aren't consistent. So parts of a circle, etc. aren't as logical as the bars, at least if you buy into Cotter's thinking. I'm pretty sure that's where Ronit Bird went with it too. So the RS fraction puzzle is a conceptually sound tool. Then just extend the thinking to other situations to generalize.

We used this tool, but not from Right Start. We also had fraction towers and a fraction bingo game. The bingo game's visual fractions were a mix of circles and rectangles. We also did a lot on the numberline with fractions. I think the tower had fewer denominations for the fractions, but they were nice for comparing, and they attach/detach for handling.

If you get a fairly inexpensive set of something like this, you might get more than one to show improper fractions, but you might need to use them blank (wrong side) and place counters on top of them or something so that they aren't confusing. 

[kbutton]

I am kind of pretending (for another week or two) that next year doesn't exist. We are having a partial therapy break (still doing math tutoring, but it's not super intense), which was much needed--the office we were using was a drive (45 minutes), and they discouraged breaks and had lots of penalties and irritating rules. We're fried from all that and enjoying the bliss of being able to do other things for now.

 

[Lecka]

We are taking the summer off of private therapy, too.  It is really nice to have a break from it!  I am getting ready to move on from it..... we have been doing it for 6 years (!!!!!!!!!) and my husband’s insurance coverage will change next year when he retires from the military, and we probably will not do any private therapy after that.  

I talked to his provider and she said she thinks he will be fine, but we should consider looking for job coaching when he is older.  

 

[lizlatorre]

DS16 (mixed receptive/expressiv language disorder) is doing his first year of HS beginning this fall.  I am roughly planned out, but  I am sure it will change as we go, it always does.  My big experiement is having him try Jacobs Elementary Algebra, rather than using AGS.  It will probably take two years to complete, but we are going to give it a go.  I always read about it being gentle; I guess we'll find out how gentle ;).  We will continue using AGS textbooks for science and world geography.  Other subjects will include Spanish (just dipping our toes in the proverbial waters), composition and literature.  Literature is the other subject where I am going out on a limb.  Our goal by end of the year is to read “To Kill A Mockingbird”.  He loves movies, so we will watch the movie first and hope that that helps lay the foundation for understanding.

[summerreading]

We're just doing Barton over the summer. Adding some khan may review a few weeks before we start back up again. Ds 12 is finishing up level 4 of Barton so this year we're adding in writing. Still on the fence between EIW and IEW. 

Excited to try Getting Started with Latin, which he asked to learn. 

[PeterPan]

11 hours ago, lizlatorre said:

DS16 (mixed receptive/expressiv language disorder) is doing his first year of HS beginning this fall.  I am roughly planned out, but  I am sure it will change as we go, it always does.  My big experiement is having him try Jacobs Elementary Algebra, rather than using AGS.  It will probably take two years to complete, but we are going to give it a go.  I always read about it being gentle; I guess we'll find out how gentle ;).  We will continue using AGS textbooks for science and world geography.  Other subjects will include Spanish (just dipping our toes in the proverbial waters), composition and literature.  Literature is the other subject where I am going out on a limb.  Our goal by end of the year is to read “To Kill A Mockingbird”.  He loves movies, so we will watch the movie first and hope that that helps lay the foundation for understanding.

I just wanted to say I appreciated you sharing this. It gives me a lot to think about with what ds could look like in a few years. I read so many things about how you just wait and POOF things happen (language comes in, kids start reading Don Quixote, blah blah), that it's really hard to work with someone who really needs to work on verb tenses, original language, basic things. It's not going to poof, sigh. And it's interesting that you're starting high school at age 16. My ds is on the older end of his grade anyway (fall b-day) and I've known we'll need to adjust him. All the school said (when I was talking with them about retaining IEPs, end dates, etc.) was that they'd consider it high school from when he starts high school work. Guess it sorta sounds obvious that way, lol. He's definitely going to benefit from more time.

Did you grade adjust him at some point? How did you handle the social side? My ds is oblivious on it, but other people ask him. Sigh. Wish they would stop because it doesn't help.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, summerreading said:

We're just doing Barton over the summer. Adding some khan may review a few weeks before we start back up again. Ds 12 is finishing up level 4 of Barton so this year we're adding in writing. Still on the fence between EIW and IEW. 

Excited to try Getting Started with Latin, which he asked to learn. 

That's fun that he wants to try latin! You never know with kids, lol. 

[PeterPan]

I'm *slowly* reading through this book                                             What Really Matters for Struggling Readers: Designing Research-Based Programs (3rd Edition) (What Really Matters Series)                                       (well actually the 2nd edition, but yeah) and trying to think about the implications for what we're trying to do.

Things he highlights:

-Kids need to read a lot

-The most effective reading teachers have kids do LESS of the pre/post stuff and MORE of the actual reading. 

-We need to create uninterrupted blocks for reading, allowing kids not only to engage with the book but to FINISH the book. He encourages whole day plans, blocks of 2-3 hours at least, so kids can get a chance to read the whole book.

-Readers have a PLAN for what they want to read. 

-Writing volume is important. Now he doesn't give a lot of data on this, only says it goes with reading volume in declining in middle school. That seems really contrary to the image we have of the ps writing, but it brings up the important question of what writing volume has to do with language development and hence reading comprehension. If MORE writing (developmentally appropriate of course) would bump my ds' language comprehension, then I need to be doing it!

-Kids need books they can read. His data is that kids who are given texts for the content areas that are at their level do better than kids who are given texts by age grade. It sounds kinda radical and runs totally contrary to the mainstream, inclusion, you should be in your age grade unless it's an intervention pullout approach in my ds' IEP.  

 

So it has taken me this long to get that far (through 1 1/2 chapters) and I haven't even finished! He's going into choice (which leads to plan), text complexity, comprehension, etc. And my mind is just lost in what this means and how I translate this data into working with my ds in an evidence-based way. He's still having noticeable basic grammar errors, so we still have stuff to work through that isn't even complex grammar but just basic. And the narrative language. And I think I need to get his vocabulary expanded in an organized way. Like he was trying to describe something and he was pointing and using this/that way a lot. He should have been able to say "The dog slid down daddy's legs and tumbled over" but he couldn't. And he's still using memorized language. It's really cute stuff, but it's memorized. I asked about something he said yesterday and he knew where he had heard the expression even. And that's fine too, but not if you can't get out basic things. 

I'm also trying to learn about embodiment theories of language comprehension. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1364661314000527  The basic idea is that motor planning neurons for the word fire when we read the word and that results in comprehension. So if that process is glitched, then we're trying to enhance that. The researchers were using pictures, but what about other ways? I was thinking about words just as words, lexicon, and really had no clue what it meant to comprehend. So if we read words and we visualize, read words and we motorize (not a word), read words and we conceptualize (think categorically), read words and empathize (mirror neurons, feel along), then we have all these things going on with comprehension and how do we build that?

So see, it's really simple. All I need to do is teach him grammar while reading using pictures and motion and strong emotion (because there's new research on negative emotional differentiation, meaning we might as well throw that in too, lol). Oh yeah, nothing crazy hard there. But I can look back and maybe see some of it. Like the speech therapy materials we were using were doing some of that with pictures and putting language to pictures. They started with listening to the language and pointing to the picture, which I thought would be easy but was actually hard. And I think it goes back to that embodiment theory of cognition. So even like for that thesaurus/lexicon writing activity where I'm justing wanting to expand language, in reality I should be using PICTURES. 

I have on clue what I'm doing. I definitely know it will involve pictures and doing everything we're trying to do (writing, social, syntax, narrative) with pictures, but beyond that I'm sorta overwhelmed or in denial or I don't know what. I'm probably going to make a list and just start SOMEWHERE. I'll probably trying to combine two things, like working on verb tenses while expanding verbs in lexicon and then using those verbs in narratives. So tight targets with narrow to broad applications. With pictures. 

Super Duper is having their summer sale this week, btw. 20% off everything.

Edited July 3, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Here's some of the research on negative emotion differentiation. I'm hoping to weave this into everything we do from now on (social thinking, reading comprehension, narrative work, etc.). Think about how many of our tools we teach simplistically, and the data is showing that it doesn't hold up over the long-term, that the intervention/analysis has to expand to match the complexity of what the kids are feeling. 

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/66b4/ef281d417526739c6e501a55e9b54d9a355d.pdf

[PeterPan]

I'm also wanting to do something stepped up in my room. The IS who did our review this year was telling me about STACK, which is part of TEACCH, so I'm trying to think through how to apply it. Basically we would color code parts of the room and use a color schedule overall with mini schedules in each work area. So then I could say today is red and blue, tomorrow is red/blue/yellow and the whole system expands/contracts nicely. I have his office rearranged with distinct work areas, and that had been my idea, to use physical structure. I don't know, we'll see. It's kind of low in a way, but he's such a funky mix of low and high. I'm just trying to get us back to higher structure.

I got a 1/2" pad to go under the 5X7 rug I brought into the room, so I'm kinda excited about that. I got him a little IKEA computer desk and a wobble chair. We still have our together table, bean bag, book shelf, bulletin boards, etc. It wasn't a good move to try to work without that structure, so it will be good to be back to it. I wanted the padded rug because I wanted it to be comfortable to say let's hang here, let's read, let's actually spend time in here. If I find a better chair, something really really comfortable, I'll get that. I found an antique chair he just loves, but it's in my living room, lol. 

I'm thinking through our schedule for fall, and right now I've got an hour of RDI (working on non-verbals, whatever she wants to work on) and possibly an hour of art therapy. We're going to try the art therapist soon and see how that goes. I think we're going to try some new things at a small small autism/SN school near us, where we can do teletherapy for conversation (that seems reasonable to me), social skills groups, etc. So maybe less driving since we can do some things closer. 

You know, just thinking out loud here, I think I need to pick a *couple* things to work on to finish out the summer, get the room paired, then step it up with more. If I don't focus, then my goals will get diluted. Maybe that's why I'm not getting vision for the whole of everything, because right now his language and compliance needs are bigger than the rest. And compliance I can hit with some Tang worksheets, some assigned reading time. Beyond that it's all language.

Total aside, but it just occurred to me those STACK color could go on the watch with alarms, hahahaha... Not saying that would go over big, just saying they could. We need to be using the watch/alarms to drive school work, and that would be how, with a generic pointer alarm that gets you to a workstation with that mini schedule.

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, summerreading said:

Excited to try Getting Started with Latin, which he asked to learn. 

My 15 y.o. liked that curriculum this year. The author just sent a follow-up book to the publisher and hopes to have it available by fall. 

[Lecka]

As far as language/reading here, I think it is down to comprehension.  And I’m focusing on teachable moments.  Teachable moments do add up over time.  

I think with the struggling reader book you linked — to some extent they think kids have comprehension and they want to connect it to reading, and then develop it through reading.  I don’t think we are on that track here, because there is just more needed for comprehension to really get on that track.  

But in good news it is easy to justify just about any conversation, language expsure, tv show, or movie, as grist for the mill.

And we are through Lesson 11 in math!  Yay!  It’s going a little bit better, too.  

[kbutton]

14 hours ago, lizlatorre said:

DS16 (mixed receptive/expressiv language disorder) is doing his first year of HS beginning this fall.  I am roughly planned out, but  I am sure it will change as we go, it always does.  My big experiement is having him try Jacobs Elementary Algebra, rather than using AGS.  It will probably take two years to complete, but we are going to give it a go.  I always read about it being gentle; I guess we'll find out how gentle ;).  We will continue using AGS textbooks for science and world geography.  Other subjects will include Spanish (just dipping our toes in the proverbial waters), composition and literature.  Literature is the other subject where I am going out on a limb.  Our goal by end of the year is to read “To Kill A Mockingbird”.  He loves movies, so we will watch the movie first and hope that that helps lay the foundation for understanding.

What do you use for composition? Just curious. I have one with intact receptive language (generally speaking), but he has expressive language issues. We're making significant progress with Mindwing Concepts progress, but I am always interested in hearing what people are trying.

We are likewise a bit out on a limb for literature. I just am not sure how much output I need to show. If that were not the issue, I would feel more confident. We are trying a some Memoria Press stuff for a few weeks because it's pretty well scaffolded--the study guide questions are pretty clear and often tell you where to be looking to find the answers. I am not sure the actual selections will be something he enjoys though. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm *slowly* reading through this book                                             What Really Matters for Struggling Readers: Designing Research-Based Programs (3rd Edition) (What Really Matters Series)                                       (well actually the 2nd edition, but yeah) and trying to think about the implications for what we're trying to do.

Things he highlights:

-Kids need to read a lot

-The most effective reading teachers have kids do LESS of the pre/post stuff and MORE of the actual reading. 

-We need to create uninterrupted blocks for reading, allowing kids not only to engage with the book but to FINISH the book. He encourages whole day plans, blocks of 2-3 hours at least, so kids can get a chance to read the whole book.

-Readers have a PLAN for what they want to read. 

-Writing volume is important. Now he doesn't give a lot of data on this, only says it goes with reading volume in declining in middle school. That seems really contrary to the image we have of the ps writing, but it brings up the important question of what writing volume has to do with language development and hence reading comprehension. If MORE writing (developmentally appropriate of course) would bump my ds' language comprehension, then I need to be doing it!

-Kids need books they can read. His data is that kids who are given texts for the content areas that are at their level do better than kids who are given texts by age grade. It sounds kinda radical and runs totally contrary to the mainstream, inclusion, you should be in your age grade unless it's an intervention pullout approach in my ds' IEP.  

That sounds interesting, especially since there has been such an emphasis on the pre/post stuff over and over...

https://www.understood.org/en/community-events/blogs/expert-corner/2018/09/24/the-unexpected-connection-between-handwriting-and-learning-to-read?fbclid=IwAR1NXGNmueljhktIiTJ4i16gqgZ3De0X1d8phulRQYiEeEbM6yiaNoa72g0

That's about handwriting, and you might be referring to composition, but I thought this was really interesting. I know that a local SLP who is really, really known for literacy has a whole gig on intentional copywork and doing things by hand (but not exclusively--she does have digital support for dysgraphia). With dysgraphic/dyslexic kids, I'm sure the curve of good for them/totally lost on them is harder to pinpoint.

I am not surprised about content at level--higher level vocabulary is higher level; it doesn't necessarily mean you can't get same information (excluding specific terminology) with lower vocabulary and easier phrasing. It's not impossible. My reading level is high, but if I want to enjoy something non-fiction, I often get the middle school version of the book. Some of it is stylistic. Some writing styles that are lauded are styles I personally find ANNOYING (like Anne Voskamp, lol!). I am not a big fan of journalistic writing either. Heresy, I know. 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Here's some of the research on negative emotion differentiation. I'm hoping to weave this into everything we do from now on (social thinking, reading comprehension, narrative work, etc.). Think about how many of our tools we teach simplistically, and the data is showing that it doesn't hold up over the long-term, that the intervention/analysis has to expand to match the complexity of what the kids are feeling. 

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/66b4/ef281d417526739c6e501a55e9b54d9a355d.pdf

Thanks! This looks really good and more broadly applicable than just for autism.

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You know, just thinking out loud here, I think I need to pick a *couple* things to work on to finish out the summer, get the room paired, then step it up with more. If I don't focus, then my goals will get diluted. Maybe that's why I'm not getting vision for the whole of everything, because right now his language and compliance needs are bigger than the rest. And compliance I can hit with some Tang worksheets, some assigned reading time. Beyond that it's all language.

Yeah, that happens to me, lol! It's that both/and of needing to figure out now while having a plan for the next step.

[lizlatorre]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I just wanted to say I appreciated you sharing this. It gives me a lot to think about with what ds could look like in a few years. I read so many things about how you just wait and POOF things happen (language comes in, kids start reading Don Quixote, blah blah), that it's really hard to work with someone who really needs to work on verb tenses, original language, basic things. It's not going to poof, sigh. And it's interesting that you're starting high school at age 16. My ds is on the older end of his grade anyway (fall b-day) and I've known we'll need to adjust him. All the school said (when I was talking with them about retaining IEPs, end dates, etc.) was that they'd consider it high school from when he starts high school work. Guess it sorta sounds obvious that way, lol. He's definitely going to benefit from more time.

Did you grade adjust him at some point? How did you handle the social side? My ds is oblivious on it, but other people ask him. Sigh. Wish they would stop because it doesn't help.

I am so glad that you find it helpful!  Well, to start with, we did a third year of preschool, so he was one year behind the whole way.  At the end of 2016-2017 year, we decided to do a “bridge year” before high school, as he was just no where near ready.  We homeschool, but have the Peterson scholarship for his SLP, so we had to have the school district list him as repeating grade 8 on his IEP, and then his provider helped us take care of the change with ODE.  DS's main social contacts are church and scouts, and it didnt seem to cause him any discomfort with peers.  We all just referred to last year as “junior high school” rather than a grade number.  The idea was planted in our head by a nueropsych at Children's about 6 years ago.  She said that DS was learning, and would continue to learn, but if you his graph is learning, the slope of his line is shallow, and that if we want him to achieve high school level learning, we would need to be willing to throw out the traditional timeline.  As he is the second of five sibings, I'm in no hurry to get him through school, as I still have about 18 years of homeschooling ahead of me!

As far as his language, there has never been a POOF moment, but his SLP and I did notice a big improvement last year, both in his comprehension of writtent text as well as his desire to succeed.  We still struggle with a lot of the basics: tense, prepositions, etc.  His recall is wildly inconsistent from day to day.  But, we are going to give things a go this year, and as I said, we will adjust as needed.  And I am sure adjustment will be needed 😉.

[lizlatorre]

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

What do you use for composition? Just curious. I have one with intact receptive language (generally speaking), but he has expressive language issues. We're making significant progress with Mindwing Concepts progress, but I am always interested in hearing what people are trying.

We are likewise a bit out on a limb for literature. I just am not sure how much output I need to show. If that were not the issue, I would feel more confident. We are trying a some Memoria Press stuff for a few weeks because it's pretty well scaffolded--the study guide questions are pretty clear and often tell you where to be looking to find the answers. I am not sure the actual selections will be something he enjoys though. 

Memoria Press is what we are going to use for “The Bronze Bow” and “To Kill A Mockingbird” and for the exact reason you mention: the study guides do a pretty good job of helping to clarify the basics of the story.  DS may hate it, but we'll give it a go.

Composition up to now has been mostly handled by his SLP, mostly brief responses to fiction reading. He is really still at the paragraph level for composition, but we am going to try to move him to short response papers.  We are going to try Jensen's Format Writing.  It is pretty basic and gives a clear procedure for the student to follow for paragraphs, essays, business letters, resume, etc.  Its a bit of a stab in the dark, as I haven't used a composition curriculum in a long time, but I think I can adapt it as needed.

 

[AliR]

I just wanted to share some of our experience with language disorder (single figure percentiles) and high school.  One development that took us by surprise was a big growth in higher level language skills, like inference, over the high school years, even though the lower levels were (and still are) weak.  DD read (actually used audio alongside text using Learning Ally) To Kill a Mockingbird amongst other novels and really got a great deal from analysing the books, which we mostly did orally.  I never thought we would reach this point or anywhere near it.  There was no magic bullet, we just took one day at a time.

I hope that this gives someone some encouragement, as I know how hard this all is.

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think with the struggling reader book you linked — to some extent they think kids have comprehension and they want to connect it to reading, and then develop it through reading.  I don’t think we are on that track here, because there is just more needed for comprehension to really get on that track.  

That actually is to the point. Even the hyperlexia book I read was crap worthless. I mean, I'll sell it soon so it was brilliant. But no the lady had no clue, didn't know how to go through language systematically, wasn't even CLOSE to the level of what ds needs. Ds responds well to clear, systematic intervention, and I've already gone through everything printed I could find. Now I'm down to scraps, pieces, things I can assemble. That really irks me, because it's not like I'm the only one. It's just the state of how it is. And really, if you were an SLP would you rather play Grannie's Candies and feel good with your little game that you can run everyone through, or would you rather do systematic, intensive syntax repair? Even the SLP phds who are researching and TRYING to do syntax intervention aren't doing what I think needs to be done. They have time constraints, but I also think they may have a gap in language training. Their linguistics training in spartan, and I think it's holding them back from being systematic and thorough. That and the hyper-reliance on contextualized use with no vision for the need for initial explicit instruction.

So whatever. I'll find a way, sigh. I found some things in the Super Duper catalog when I was going through it I thought looked good. I just wish something was preprinted to do the work that needs to be done at the level it needs to be done. But that's it: without language comprehension there is no reading comprehension. Or there is but it's not sustainable, not something he can build on. 

I think I also think of him as 5 and somehow he turned 10, sigh. This fall he'll be 11. It's the level of support and the language. 

38 minutes ago, AliR said:

I just wanted to share some of our experience with language disorder (single figure percentiles) and high school.  One development that took us by surprise was a big growth in higher level language skills, like inference, over the high school years, even though the lower levels were (and still are) weak.  DD read (actually used audio alongside text using Learning Ally) To Kill a Mockingbird amongst other novels and really got a great deal from analysing the books, which we mostly did orally.  I never thought we would reach this point or anywhere near it.  There was no magic bullet, we just took one day at a time.

I hope that this gives someone some encouragement, as I know how hard this all is.

I love this, so thank you for sharing! And it almost makes sense when you think about it. The dc is going to mature cognitively even if the language they're working with is lower. So it goes back to the point of not holding back the THOUGHT just because the language/syntax/decoding/whatever pieces are not there. But yes, that's really wonderful to hear! I think that would be a big success in my book, just to hit 18-20 with ds and say "I never thought we'd hit this point" even if it's not as swanky as someone else's point. That would be a BIG WIN.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, lizlatorre said:

We all just referred to last year as “junior high school” rather than a grade number.  The idea was planted in our head by a nueropsych at Children's about 6 years ago.  She said that DS was learning, and would continue to learn, but if you his graph is learning, the slope of his line is shallow, and that if we want him to achieve high school level learning, we would need to be willing to throw out the traditional timeline.

Ok, that is profoundly brilliant. I think that's what has been irking me about the school's attitude, because I think they would want to rush him through, and that doesn't do him right. He's someone who WILL get there and will learn, but he's going to have that extended trajectory. He's not in a rush to get out into the world of work anyway. He doesn't have the stamina or maturity to deal with that. So extended time where he can learn is so right to let him get to where he can get to. If we didn't see that potential or if he were anxious to leave with something he really wanted to do, that would be different. 

And yes, calling it "junior high" is perfect, so perfect. It tells them something and shuts them down. Because then what are they going to do, say no really what grade?  LOL No one would do that, lol. So it's perfect. 

Some day we'll have to get together. I have a friend that lives out your way. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, lizlatorre said:

Memoria Press is what we are going to use for “The Bronze Bow” and “To Kill A Mockingbird” and for the exact reason you mention: the study guides do a pretty good job of helping to clarify the basics of the story.  DS may hate it, but we'll give it a go.

Composition up to now has been mostly handled by his SLP, mostly brief responses to fiction reading. He is really still at the paragraph level for composition, but we am going to try to move him to short response papers.  We are going to try Jensen's Format Writing.  It is pretty basic and gives a clear procedure for the student to follow for paragraphs, essays, business letters, resume, etc.  Its a bit of a stab in the dark, as I haven't used a composition curriculum in a long time, but I think I can adapt it as needed.

 

If your SLP is using a narrative language curriculum, it should have extensions for expository language that you could apply to the Jensens.

[PeterPan]

 

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

That's about handwriting, and you might be referring to composition, but I thought this was really interesting. I know that a local SLP who is really, really known for literacy has a whole gig on intentional copywork and doing things by hand (but not exclusively--she does have digital support for dysgraphia). With dysgraphic/dyslexic kids, I'm sure the curve of good for them/totally lost on them is harder to pinpoint.

The neuropsych we first saw with ds emphasized this, so I have no doubt it's true. Bummer is for ds that dysgraphia and whatever is so significant it's just not realistic. Even typing is going to be slow-going. But in reality he's sort of all level relative to himself. His interest in spelling, composing, etc. are all about even, just way behind his chronological age. So as long as I don't mind that, he's fine, lol. But he is strangely even. Like it's not like oh if he had this ONE PIECE it would be there. Nope, it's all a mess, all affected. I want to try to think more WHOLE this year, like productive, producing where he's at, with what he's ready to do. I think he has enough foundation to do SOMETHING. It's sort of a mental goal for me. I've got a variety of things on my shelves, so I guess I'm just going to play with them and see what sticks. Paired writing, lists, "so you think you hate writing" blah blah I forget the name. Things meant for younger grades/language levels. I think I can weave in the syntax and comprehension work into this paired writing. So composing interesting things that happen to target our syntax targets. But do it in a jacked up creative way somehow. I'd even take non-creative, but creative would be more fun lol.

[lizlatorre]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, that is profoundly brilliant. I think that's what has been irking me about the school's attitude, because I think they would want to rush him through, and that doesn't do him right. He's someone who WILL get there and will learn, but he's going to have that extended trajectory. He's not in a rush to get out into the world of work anyway. He doesn't have the stamina or maturity to deal with that. So extended time where he can learn is so right to let him get to where he can get to. If we didn't see that potential or if he were anxious to leave with something he really wanted to do, that would be different. 

And yes, calling it "junior high" is perfect, so perfect. It tells them something and shuts them down. Because then what are they going to do, say no really what grade?  LOL No one would do that, lol. So it's perfect. 

Some day we'll have to get together. I have a friend that lives out your way. 

That would be fun.  This month is a little crazy, but I have great hopes of life calming down a bit in August.  Let me know if you think you might be able to head my direction and we can pick a place to meet up.

As far as the extended time frame - we have found it profoundly freeing, to be able to just focus on helping him learn, at his pace.

[Lecka]

I don’t think it is language-language that is holding my son back anymore.  

He has comprehension issues that are just caused by comprehension, not input.  

And he also has trouble summarizing things as they come along, which makes it hard for him to follow along in a book where that is required to keep track of the story.  He can do it for a certain level of complexity, and the level of complexity is higher than it used to be, but then that is as high as it is right now.  

I think I have good strategies and am doing good things, but it’s not the kind of thing where I think I can “make” things happen.  

It is always nice to hear about older kids making progress 🙂. 

My son is making progress too, it’s the kind of thing where it’s usually not noticeable, but then looking back over a year I can see his listening comprehension has improved, and I see that he is clicking with things he wasn’t before.  

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Lecka said:

And he also has trouble summarizing things as they come along, which makes it hard for him to follow along in a book where that is required to keep track of the story.

I agree, narrative language is HUGE. It was sort of preposterous that our ps cared about ds' narrative language scores but didn't care that he completely, utterly failed the SPELT (an expressive language test). As if you can have narrative without expressive language, lol. What idiots. I mean they're nice people, but the lack of thought on this is just astonishing. If he passes a multiple choice expressive language test, he must be fine. If he fails a non-multiple choice test, who cares. Sheer, utter, complete stupidity. 

So anyways, how is the MW stuff going? My goal has been to target a level in the developmental sequence for narrative and NAIL it. Like do it, do all the syntax, do everything it takes to GET it. And get it in every setting. A lot of the interventions want you to do the opposite, going through everything really quickly, and I think that's too much of a brain jumble. I think (and this was sort of what the MaryE MW lady was saying) was retrace development, go through the steps, don't rush, really nail it. And nail it both as narrative and expository for that skill level. 

When you think about it, an action sequence as a narrative is something really nice like a recipe or a how to paragraph. It's not like we're talking shoddy writing here. To me that's really nice say 2nd grade writing, I don't know. So when you think about how the narrative converts over to real life writing, including expository, it's suddenly so RICH, so real, so vibrant, so powerful. And think about how you could harness those skills (of description, action sequence, concision/realizing main points) to maybe write titles. Suddenly you're doing more advanced work, big work. You could even go multi-source and bump it up to a 4th, 5th grade level, all with the same basic narrative/expository language skill.

I think if you want the narrative developmental level down you have to take down the target age. At least that's what I find, that children's books naturally mature through these stages. So if you find something for a younger target, it's more likely to have the more streamlined list of narrative components you want, making it easier to comprehend, easier to retell. 

I hadn't pondered it this way, but it's *possible* that my ds is *understanding* more with narrative than he can get out. In fact it's more than possible. I'm just realizing that may be what those two scores meant on the TNL. The SLP who reran it on ds didn't get it DONE so she was worthless to me. (don't get me started, really don't) But you're right, the TNL cranks out comprehension and expressive scores for narrative, and I was like who gives a flip on the comprehension. But you're right it's possible they weren't looking at overall language comprehension or even listening comprehension but NARRATIVE comprehension. I don't know as I didn't hear it administered. I really should have, because I would have learned more. It doesn't crank you out enough scores and the (really don't get me started) SLP who administered it had so little clue that she couldn't say ANYTHING meaningful based on administering it. And this woman claims to be an expressive language specialist. Really don't get me started because I'd be constructing things with nails right now. The whole profession is just so frustrating. They are cranking out people who can't do what we need and they're charging over $100 for it. It's outrageous.

So yes, most of the time if my ds reads something and is willing to read it he follows the narrative well enough to have a clue. But he can't get anything out. And if it's more complex, like a movie, he might miss pieces AND not be able to get much out. He'll get out to the level of what he can currently narrate. But I think that's a good reflection, the what he'll sit down and watch gig. He used to not watch at all but would just walk away, complete inability to follow the narrative. So he's getting more and asking good questions. I think getting him through those first few stages got a lot percolating, got him a percentage to build on.

[Lecka]

For books, his highest good listening level where he can answer most wh questions correctly and make comments showing he is following along and noticing (and noticing little things “set up” in the book — like a little cliffhanger at the end of a chapter, that will be answered when you turn the page to the next chapter....) is 2nd grade level.  Earlier Magic Tree House books.  He is not close to reading himself and being able to process this level.  I read very expressively and he can’t add that in when he reads, unless it’s something even easier.  He can read and sound good when something is a lot easier, but I can see when it gets too hard because how he sounds goes very downhill, and at that point he will say he isn’t following along as he reads.  Anyway — that is why I am focusing on reading aloud to him.

He does a lot better with watching a tv show or movie.  Having the visual helps him a lot.  

I got a lot of good ideas for when I read-aloud and discuss from the Mindwings.  But, a lot of it wasn’t new to me or new to stuff he has worked on.  He could already do 6-Second Stories, but from it already being targeted in therapy not like he just could do it.  He has had “retelling” targeted for a long time.  We have had goals for him to talk about his day for a long time.  This is quite a bit better but it’s not like it’s a mastered goal.  The story retells are a way to help with that so he can talk about his day — to some extent.  

So — he can do pretty well with a retell for a short storybook.  Or, a short part of a book (like 1-2 pages).  He does GREAT one-sentence summaries, but of a short part of a book or a short book, and he can’t do it as a book gets longer and/or more complex.  

Then with the harder books that he can still do — he can answer wh questions pretty well (he misses some things) but he really can’t do a retell.

With the extra support from Mindwings — I was not seeing a bump.  I think it’s just too high of a level for right now.  

So I am waiting on it for now.  I think it’s really good, but it’s like — he can do it at one level well enough not to specifically use Mindwings, but at the next level, he isn’t ready to specifically use Mindwings. 

I really like it, but I am not actively using it.  But, I got a lot out of reading through it.

i am using it as a parent and not as a therapist, too, in my goal for how to use it.  Because — for enjoyable reading time I can only do so much, and I’m not wanting to take it up to “we’re doing this” right now, and I don’t think it’s a really fruitful area to do that with right now.  Because — I don’t think I could make him get a bump right now.  It’s just — he is where he is and it’s fruitful to be more informal and wait on him some.  Because — I don’t see any missing pieces as much as just needing things to sink in, which does not happen on my timeline.