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FDA lists dog food brands linked to DCM


Pawz4me
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I know this has been discussed before, but I'm too lazy to try to find the previous thread(s). The FDA has released the brands of dog food that have been most frequently identified in the cases of DCM they've studied.

Link (to Business Insider article)

This is a listing of the foods and the number of cases associated with each:

Acana: 67
Zignature: 64
Taste of the Wild: 53
4Health: 32
Earthborn Holistic: 32
Blue Buffalo: 31
Nature’s Domain: 29
Fromm: 24
Merrick: 16
California Natural: 15
Natural Balance: 15
Orijen: 12
Nature’s Variety: 11
NutriSource: 10
Nutro: 10
Rachael Ray Nutrish: 10

ETA: Link to FDA alert. There's a ton of good info there.
 

Edited by Pawz4me
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This has been on my mind lately since my dog was recently diagnosed with DCM.  Our food is not on that list (Canidae Pure), but we fed grain-free and needed chicken free (gives him the runs.)  It did have legumes and potatoes as a grain replacement, which is probably why it was a problem.  He is now on vetmedin and a prescription food from the vet.  We are slowly replacing his current food and and the greater the amount of the new food, the less my dog is eating.  I'm having to hide treats in his food to get him interested.  I'm not too crazy about this ridiculously expensive Rx food ... it is egg, rice, and pork based since he can't have chicken.  Bear is starting to get itchy spots again.  We took him off grain in the first place because he was scratching his nose and ears so much that he had scabs, which, at first, I thought were ticks.  Those cleared up when we went grain free.  Here I thought I was being a responsible dog owner and it looks like I created this problem.  So sad ... my pup is 9.5 years old, and until a couple of months ago, was a very energetic dog.

  

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2 hours ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

This has been on my mind lately since my dog was recently diagnosed with DCM.  Our food is not on that list (Canidae Pure), but we fed grain-free and needed chicken free (gives him the runs.)  It did have legumes and potatoes as a grain replacement, which is probably why it was a problem.  He is now on vetmedin and a prescription food from the vet.  We are slowly replacing his current food and and the greater the amount of the new food, the less my dog is eating.  I'm having to hide treats in his food to get him interested.  I'm not too crazy about this ridiculously expensive Rx food ... it is egg, rice, and pork based since he can't have chicken.  Bear is starting to get itchy spots again.  We took him off grain in the first place because he was scratching his nose and ears so much that he had scabs, which, at first, I thought were ticks.  Those cleared up when we went grain free.  Here I thought I was being a responsible dog owner and it looks like I created this problem.  So sad ... my pup is 9.5 years old, and until a couple of months ago, was a very energetic dog.

  

 

Mine is in process of switching from grain free to First Mate lamb and oats.  He similarly doesn’t like it much, but doesn’t seem to be increasing in itch problems.  

He prefers raw or human meal left overs.

I saw that Labrador has a number of dcm reports.  I expect that would apply to Lab mixes too. 

Do you note any cardiac improvement as you switch food or is it too early to tell?

Edited by Pen
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It also said that 24 dogs were on multiple foods, 26 were unknown and 9 were on a raw diet.  

Personally, I'm going to stick to a rotational diet for my dog that will allow it (my other is too sensitive) with supplements.  

Here is the FDA article:

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy

 

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43 minutes ago, ZiMom said:

Personally, I'm going to stick to a rotational diet for my dog that will allow it (my other is too sensitive) with supplements.  

 

I’m not officially rotating, but I am trying for various foods to not get too much of whatever bad stuff or deficiencies any one food has.

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Mine is in process of switching from grain free to First Mate lamb and oats.  He similarly doesn’t like it much, but doesn’t seem to be increasing in itch problems.  

He prefers raw or human meal left overs.

I saw that Labrador has a number of dcm reports.  I expect that would apply to Lab mixes too. 

Do you note any cardiac improvement as you switch food or is it too early to tell?

Well, he was diagnosed via blood work at a check up less than a month ago.  He didn't have any symptoms that I could see.  He does cough sometimes after drinking a lot of water, but, so do i.  He did seem to be slowing down a little, but was still quite active and frisky for a 9 year old dog.  I just assumed he was just settling down (finally) from his hyper lab ways.  We go back in a couple weeks and they will do blood work again.  With this new food, it is a lot of work to get him to eat, and he is probably only eating about 3/4 of what he should for his weight (we are throwing away a lot,) which is very unusual for him.  He still loves treats, though. 

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1 hour ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

Well, he was diagnosed via blood work at a check up less than a month ago.  He didn't have any symptoms that I could see.  He does cough sometimes after drinking a lot of water, but, so do i.  He did seem to be slowing down a little, but was still quite active and frisky for a 9 year old dog.  I just assumed he was just settling down (finally) from his hyper lab ways.  We go back in a couple weeks and they will do blood work again.  With this new food, it is a lot of work to get him to eat, and he is probably only eating about 3/4 of what he should for his weight (we are throwing away a lot,) which is very unusual for him.  He still loves treats, though. 

 

I hope you’ll share whether his blood work is improved when you get results. 

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4 hours ago, kand said:

Thanks for this. My golden retriever has been on grain free diets since we got her, due to suspected allergies affecting her skin, but I’ve been gradually allowing her some grains and just took the plunge to put her on a pea-free food that contains oats. Hoping it’s a decent food for her.

Goldens seem to be particularly effected. Also, grains are not a high allergen class of food, most allergies are to proteins like chicken, egg, etc. And of course, "grain" can mean anything from rice to corn to barley to wheat, etc etc. So even if a dog was allergic to one of those, it would be exceedingly unlikely that they were allergic to all of them. And they would be no more likely to be allergic to rice than peas. 

2 hours ago, Just Kate said:

Ugh...so what do we feed our dogs? My dog’s normal food is on that list (4Health) and yes, we were purchasing grain free because I assumed it was healthier. Any suggested options for a dog with no known allergies/issues?

Hills, Purina, Royal Canin, Iams, and Eukanuba seem to be safe, with large amounts of research backing up their food. 

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42 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Hills, Purina, Royal Canin, Iams, and Eukanuba seem to be safe, with large amounts of research backing up their food. 

 

Thank you so much! Is there anything specific we should focus on when choosing a new food! My dog is right at 50lbs, a bit overweight. She is a 5 year old fur ball. 😊

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6 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Goldens seem to be particularly effected. Also, grains are not a high allergen class of food, most allergies are to proteins like chicken, egg, etc. And of course, "grain" can mean anything from rice to corn to barley to wheat, etc etc. So even if a dog was allergic to one of those, it would be exceedingly unlikely that they were allergic to all of them. And they would be no more likely to be allergic to rice than peas. 

Hills, Purina, Royal Canin, Iams, and Eukanuba seem to be safe, with large amounts of research backing up their food. 

I agree with Katie regarding grain allergies. It makes no sense to assume that a dog would be allergic to ALL grains. Nobody does that for any other type/group of food. If a dog reacts to chicken we don't say "my dog is allergic to meat." But people think if their dog reacts to one grain they have to avoid all of them. We had a previous dog who had horrible, horrible allergies. We had to have him tested and do desensitization shots. I've forgotten exactly now, but he tested allergic to something like 37 things and borderline to a few others. He reacted to wheat but could have eaten corn or rice all day long w/o any problem.

I'm hearing a lot of people say the smart thing to do now is probably to stick with foods made by the big manufacturers (and I don't disagree), but it did jump out to me that Merrick is on the list, and it's been owned by Purina for four years now. So . .  . hmmm. Now maybe Merrick is operated as a totally separate company, but still . . it makes me wonder just a bit.

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3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I agree with Katie regarding grain allergies. It makes no sense to assume that a dog would be allergic to ALL grains.

 

Our vet’s original reason for advocating grain avoidance was not allergy but association of grains eating with canine arthritis and similar problems.

apparently the raw fed,  no grains fed  dogs our vet has dealt with aren’t having so much trouble with arthritis as the commercial grain based food fed dogs  

It may not be the grains though

 

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We switched our Golden Doodle (although appears to be 99% Golden Retriever) to Bil-Jac when reports first came out.  She had been eating Kirkland Grain Free.  It is puppy crack, but it's not a big manufacturer either. 

I've thought about supplementing taurine for her--as it seems to be an issue with Golden Retrievers. 

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Our vet’s original reason for advocating grain avoidance was not allergy but association of grains eating with canine arthritis and similar problems.

apparently the raw fed,  no grains fed  dogs our vet has dealt with aren’t having so much trouble with arthritis as the commercial grain based food fed dogs  

It may not be the grains though

 

Yeah, I can see that if they switch from grains to meat. But grains to garbanzo beans and peas? that's what is in most of the grain free foods. 

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  • 1 month later...

WEll, I've looked at the study that found a very clear correlation between brand of dog food, and type of dog food, and DCM. I've seen the stories of pets that were on grain free, BEG foods, that were found to have DCM and recovered after switching foods. As for how many pets HAVE DCM, we don't know because in many cases there are no symptoms until death, and without a necropsy you wouldn't have a diagnosis. 

As for not being enough published studies, it takes TIME to do that, and so of course not. The studies are being done, but are not finished, and it will take time to then publish them. Like this is a 2 yr process kind of thing, not a few months kind of thing! Are they supposed to NOT warn people of a tentative link, and wait two years, and dogs possibly die in the meantime?

Also, the irony of saying that this research is suspect mainly because of the financial ties of some of the researchers to dog food companies, while yourself being an OWNER of a dog food company, is pretty amazing. 

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Well, at least he does openly admit that he's biased. There's that one point going for him in an otherwise extremely poorly written article. :laugh:

I do agree with him that DCM is very rare. But that's kind of a red herring. AFAIK no rational person/group who's working on this is claiming that it's not rare. The issue is that vets are seeing a significant increase in cases. That doesn't mean it's still not pretty darn rare, but it does mean that it's probably prudent to start investigating why.

Also, AFAIK all of the big brands have their own lines of grain free foods. Every single one of them. So if they were in fact pushing some unproven theory that grain free is bad just to retaliate against smaller manufacturers -- they'd be shooting themselves in the bottom line, too.

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Hi all,

I've been following this issue closely because my family has a new golden retriever puppy, and I discovered to my dismay after buying a huge expensive bag of grain-free Orijen food because the pet store owner assured me it was "the best" that many of these foods are indeed tied to diet-related DCM and that many owners do not know anything is wrong until their dog dies suddenly. Very scary! I threw out the entire bag and switched to Purina Pro Plan  (as others have mentioned, Royal Canin, Science Diet/Hill's, Iam's and Eukanaba are also considered safe). The exact reason is unknown and more research needs to be done, but after reading the many stories of families who have lost their beloved dogs on the facebook page Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardio Myopathy, I am playing it safe until we know more. My understanding is that some homemade/raw diets can be safe, but have also been implicated in diet-related DCM, so if you choose to go this route, the recommendation is to work with a veterinary nutritionist. I really appreciate my vet made me aware of this issue! There is a lot of denial out there and people trying to discredit the findings, but in my view there is definitely enough evidence that these foods can cause serious issues. Many dogs have also seen their DCM reversed when they begin eating one of the five brands currently recommended.

 

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When people say "raw" diet, that can be a really broad term. 

There are people who feed their dogs all sorts of vegetables (and even cooked grains and legumes) under the rubric of "raw." These vegetable inclusive diets conform to human preconceptions about optimal health, not canine's actual needs, so it is not optimal.

What is optimal is a Prey Model Raw style approach where one feeds "meat" at 80% (about 30% of that fat), soft edible bone at 10%,  and 10% organs (half of that liver and half other "secreting organ" like kidney, sweetbreads (thymus gland/pancreas), spleen, etc.

Consumers started getting away from grain for good reasons. Grain is unnatural to their diet and in modern dog food to reduce costs. It is bad for teeth, bad, for vitality, bad for coat, and for general condition. So people looked for rations with less grain. Not a bad impulse really.

But what happened? Pet Food companies substituted other starches/carbohydrates for the grain--when carbs are a problem regardless of source--and they looked to improve the very poor protein levels in most all kibbled dog food by adding peas and other legumes. Food labeling laws don't require differentiating animal protein and incomplete vegetables protein. So they add legumes.

Now these cheap and unnatural ingredients (to a canine diet) are potentially implicated in DCM. That they may prove more risky than the cheap and unnatural ingredients they replaced does not absolve grain from the problems that had people thinking "grain free" in the first place.

Bill

  

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

When people say "raw" diet, that can be a really broad term. 

There are people who feed their dogs all sorts of vegetables (and even cooked grains and legumes) under the rubric of "raw." These vegetable inclusive diets conform to human preconceptions about optimal health, not canine's actual needs, so it is not optimal.

What is optimal is a Prey Model Raw style approach where one feeds "meat" at 80% (about 30% of that fat), soft edible bone at 10%,  and 10% organs (half of that liver and half other "secreting organ" like kidney, sweetbreads (thymus gland/pancreas), spleen, etc.

Consumers started getting away from grain for good reasons. Grain is unnatural to their diet and in modern dog food to reduce costs. It is bad for teeth, bad, for vitality, bad for coat, and for general condition. So people looked for rations with less grain. Not a bad impulse really.

But what happened? Pet Food companies substituted other starches/carbohydrates for the grain--when carbs are a problem regardless of source--and they looked to improve the very poor protein levels in most all kibbled dog food by adding peas and other legumes. Food labeling laws don't require differentiating animal protein and incomplete vegetables protein. So they add legumes.

Now these cheap and unnatural ingredients (to a canine diet) are potentially implicated in DCM. That they may prove more risky than the cheap and unnatural ingredients they replaced does not absolve grain from the problems that had people thinking "grain free" in the first place.

Bill

  

 

 

 

I agree that the idea that legumes are more natural for a dog than grains was ridiculous, and I'm still not sure how people are believing it. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

 

What is optimal is a Prey Model Raw style approach where one feeds "meat" at 80% (about 30% of that fat), soft edible bone at 10%,  and 10% organs (half of that liver and half other "secreting organ" like kidney, sweetbreads (thymus gland/pancreas), spleen, etc.

Consumers started getting away from grain for good reasons. Grain is unnatural to their diet and in modern dog food to reduce costs. It is bad for teeth, bad, for vitality, bad for coat, and for general condition. So people looked for rations with less grain. Not a bad impulse really.

I believe most veterinary nutritionists would  disagree with this. What is your source for this information? Dogs, unlike cats, are considered omnivores rather than carnivores, and need to get nutrients from plant and animal sources.  One of the Guiness world record oldest dogs in recent history was fed a vegan diet (not advocating that, just pointing out that dogs don't need meat as cats do, and an all-meat diet would not be optimal, in my understanding). Dogs have eaten grains as long as  humans have.

 

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36 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I agree that the idea that legumes are more natural for a dog than grains was ridiculous, and I'm still not sure how people are believing it. 

 

And the colliery point that just because legumes are suspect and potentially of greater risk (when it comes to the relatively rare DCM, anyway) that "grains" suddenly became a positive for canine diets. 

Bill

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29 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

And the colliery point that just because legumes are suspect and potentially of greater risk (when it comes to the relatively rare DCM, anyway) that "grains" suddenly became a positive for canine diets. 

Bill

If comparing kibble to kibble, which is what the majority of pet owners are going to feed, all of which have some plant material, grains because of their nutrient profile and because of our more clear understanding of how they interact with other components of the diet, are a safer choice than legume or potato based foods. 

Not getting into comparing kibble to other types of diets. That's a whole different conversation. 

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21 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

If comparing kibble to kibble, which is what the majority of pet owners are going to feed, all of which have some plant material, grains because of their nutrient profile and because of our more clear understanding of how they interact with other components of the diet, are a safer choice than legume or potato based foods. 

Not getting into comparing kibble to other types of diets. That's a whole different conversation. 

It may be the best "lessor of two evils" to avoid peas, other legumes, and possibly potato. This in no way absolves the serious issues of feeding grains (or any carbohydrates) to dogs.

If we feed dog's unnatural foodstuffs there are consequences.

Bill

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

It may be the best "lessor of two evils" to avoid peas, other legumes, and possibly potato. This in no way absolves the serious issues of feeding grains (or any carbohydrates) to dogs.

If we feed dog's unnatural foodstuffs there are consequences.

Bill

 

 

Where are you getting this information? There are a lot of misconceptions out there, and again most reputable  veterinary nutritionists would say that dogs do need carbohydrates. There are some websiites out there that make unfounded claims and are run by people who are not veterinarians or veterinary nutritionists, like Whole Dog Journal, Dog Food Advisor, Dogs Naturally, etc.

From vetnutrition.tufts.edu:

Whole grains, rather than being fillers, contribute valuable nutrients including vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids and fiber to diets while helping to keep the fat and calories lower than if animal products were used in their place. Even refined grains such as white rice can have beneficial health implications depending on the type of diet and the pet. The vast majority of dogs (and cats!) are very efficient at digesting and utilizing nutrients from grains. While some dogs are allergic to specific grains, these allergies are no more common than allergies to animal proteins such as chicken, beef and dairy and tend to reflect the prevalence of the ingredient in commercial diets rather than enhanced antigenicity.

From American College for Veterinary Nutrition:

http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/banr/miscellaneous/dog_nutrition_final_fix.pdf

Other links:

  https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_carbohydrates_key_to_balanced_dog_food

https://pets.webmd.com/dogs/dog-nutrition#1

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/nutrition-general-feeding-guidelines-for-dogs

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2 hours ago, JessieC said:

Where are you getting this information? There are a lot of misconceptions out there, and again most reputable  veterinary nutritionists would say that dogs do need carbohydrates. There are some websiites out there that make unfounded claims and are run by people who are not veterinarians or veterinary nutritionists, like Whole Dog Journal, Dog Food Advisor, Dogs Naturally, etc.

From vetnutrition.tufts.edu:

Whole grains, rather than being fillers, contribute valuable nutrients including vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids and fiber to diets while helping to keep the fat and calories lower than if animal products were used in their place. Even refined grains such as white rice can have beneficial health implications depending on the type of diet and the pet. The vast majority of dogs (and cats!) are very efficient at digesting and utilizing nutrients from grains. While some dogs are allergic to specific grains, these allergies are no more common than allergies to animal proteins such as chicken, beef and dairy and tend to reflect the prevalence of the ingredient in commercial diets rather than enhanced antigenicity.

From American College for Veterinary Nutrition:

http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/banr/miscellaneous/dog_nutrition_final_fix.pdf

Other links:

  https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_carbohydrates_key_to_balanced_dog_food

https://pets.webmd.com/dogs/dog-nutrition#1

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/nutrition-general-feeding-guidelines-for-dogs

 

I got the information directly from the official report of the world's leading authority on dog nutrition, the National Research Council, which affirms that dogs have no essential need for carbohydrates.

Plus dozens and dozens of scholarly studies on canine nutrition that show the more cards that dogs eat the less vitality they have in quantifiable testing.

I can also see with my own eyes. There is no comparison in condition between dogs fed a high carb diet and ones fed a PMR style diet diet that conforms to a canine's evolutionary needs. No comparison, I can assure you.

Bill

ETA: Squeezing out calories from fat is a huge negative, not a positive, as dogs thrive on fat metabolism. That is how they are supposed to derive energy. Not from carb-burning. It is very wrong headed to thing squeezing fat from a dogs diet with carbs is a good idea. 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

We tried transitioning my labradoodle to raw and he didn’t take to it (vomiting, diarrhea) so now we feed him cooked meat mixed with some Costco kibble. I see now Costco label is also on the list. 😞

In my experience vomiting and diarrhea (and constipation) are typically signs that too much bone is being fed and/or that the bone is too hard. 10% soft edible bone should be the target. Too much bone, especially in a newbie, can cause gastric distress.

There is a Victors formula that is very high-protein/high-fat (relative to most kibble) that I once considered my fall back id I were ever forced by circumstances to stop raw feeding, and it has concerning amounts of pea protein.

Not a good idea to fool with Mother Nature.

Bill

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Spy Car said:

 

I got the information directly from the official report of the world's leading authority on dog nutrition, the National Research Council, which affirms that dogs have no essential need for carbohydrates.

Plus dozens and dozens of scholarly studies on canine nutrition that show the more cards that dogs eat the less vitality they have in quantifiable testing

 

This  is the pamphlet on the National Research Council site, which  supports my belief that fat, protein,  and carbohydrates are all necessary in a dog's  diet. If you could link me to a study that you have read that shows  carbs are detrimental to dogs, I am willing  to keep  an open mind, but all of the trusted sources stress a balance that includes carbohydrate in a dog's diet. 

http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/banr/miscellaneous/dog_nutrition_final_fix.pdf

Quotes from National Research Council pamphlet linked above:

Dogs need several different kinds of nutrients to survive: amino acids from proteins, fatty acids and carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, and water. T

Scientific research has shown that an adult dog’s daily diet can contain up to 50% carbohydrates by weight, including 2.5–4.5% from fiber. A minimum of approximately 5.5% of the diet should come from fats and 10% from protein.

Q: Does my dog need to eat meat? A: Because dogs are descended from omnivores, they are not strict meat eaters. They are remarkably adaptable to a wide range of ingredients, texture, and form in terms of what they will eat. Though many dogs may prefer animal-based protein, they can thrive on a vegetarian diet. Regardless of whether the protein comes from plant or animal sources, normal adult dogs should get at least 10% of their total calories from protein. Older dogs appear to require somewhat more protein to maintain their protein reserves, perhaps as much as 50% more

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15 hours ago, Spy Car said:

There is a Victors formula that is very high-protein/high-fat (relative to most kibble) that I once considered my fall back id I were ever forced by circumstances to stop raw feeding, and it has concerning amounts of pea protein.

Bill

FYI several manufacturers are promoting higher protein foods now. Iams (available at say, walmart and target) has a new higher protein formula, and there are the performance formuals/sport formulas from Eukanuba nd ProPlan. These are usually around 30% protein and 18-20% fat. Not quite as high as the highest protein Victor formulas but higher than the typical 20-22% of most kibble. At least three of them are also gluten free, which is how I found them. 

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I'm glad I came on here today. Why haven't I heard anything about this? My dog's food is on the list and pea protein is high on the ingredient list. I was just saying to dh that he seems extra tired lately, and now I'm worried. He's been on this food for about 6 months now. I'm going to call the vet and ask for a recommendation in light of this report. We have been grain free for years due to chronic ear infections that cleared up after switching, but our previous food didn't have the pea protein that I'm aware of. 

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13 minutes ago, dsmith said:

I'm glad I came on here today. Why haven't I heard anything about this? My dog's food is on the list and pea protein is high on the ingredient list. I was just saying to dh that he seems extra tired lately, and now I'm worried. He's been on this food for about 6 months now. I'm going to call the vet and ask for a recommendation in light of this report. We have been grain free for years due to chronic ear infections that cleared up after switching, but our previous food didn't have the pea protein that I'm aware of. 

 

There is no grain-free food that  is considered safe at  this time, unfortunately.  The pea protein/pulses is one possibility for the increase in DCM but they're still trying to figure it out. If you're on Facebook, you can join the group  https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/ to  learn more. The good news is that nutritional  DCM can be reversed after switching to one of the recommended foods (not the grain-free versions): Iam's, Science Diet,  Purina, Royal Canin, and Eukanaba are considered  well-researched and safe--no dogs have been reported to nutritional  DCM while on these foods.. Hopefully your pup is just reacting to summer heat, but I would switch foods right away if I were you. The only real way to know if diet has affected a dog's heart is  through an echocardiogram. Many dogs had normal taurine levels but still developed DCM. 

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2 hours ago, JessieC said:

This  is the pamphlet on the National Research Council site, which  supports my belief that fat, protein,  and carbohydrates are all necessary in a dog's  diet. If you could link me to a study that you have read that shows  carbs are detrimental to dogs, I am willing  to keep  an open mind, but all of the trusted sources stress a balance that includes carbohydrate in a dog's diet. 

http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/banr/miscellaneous/dog_nutrition_final_fix.pdf

Quotes from National Research Council pamphlet linked above:

Dogs need several different kinds of nutrients to survive: amino acids from proteins, fatty acids and carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, and water. T

Scientific research has shown that an adult dog’s daily diet can contain up to 50% carbohydrates by weight, including 2.5–4.5% from fiber. A minimum of approximately 5.5% of the diet should come from fats and 10% from protein.

Q: Does my dog need to eat meat? A: Because dogs are descended from omnivores, they are not strict meat eaters. They are remarkably adaptable to a wide range of ingredients, texture, and form in terms of what they will eat. Though many dogs may prefer animal-based protein, they can thrive on a vegetarian diet. Regardless of whether the protein comes from plant or animal sources, normal adult dogs should get at least 10% of their total calories from protein. Older dogs appear to require somewhat more protein to maintain their protein reserves, perhaps as much as 50% more

While this pamphlet may be "based on" the Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, it is not one and the same. In "popularizing" the information the author(s) of the pamphlet use language that is likely to cause cause confusion and they omit the central question at hand in our discussion.

For example, when they say that an adult dog’s daily diet "can" contain up to 50% carbohydrates by weight, it should NOT be misread as the NRC saying a dog's diet "must" contain carbohydrates, nor that it "should" contain carbohydrates.

Missing in this pamphlet is the finding that dogs HAVE NO ESSENTIAL NEEDS FOR CARBOHYDRATES IN THEIR DIET. None. Zero, Zip. Nada.

All the nutrients that dogs require is delivered by animal products, and delivered in a more optimal form.

Not mentioned is that feeding carbs disrupts the natural fat metabolism that provides dogs with abundant and easy replenishable energy. Dogs convert fat to glycogen is a highly efficient manner and can sustain the energy almost indefinitely. In contrast, carb metabolism causes a boom and bust cycle. Energy resources are fleeting, blood sugars are unstable, and the poor mechanism leads to obesity. They left that out, despite this being an uncontroversial finding in the medical literature.

One "can" feed a dog carbs. They will suffer for it in many ways relative to a carb free diet. 

Bill

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

While this pamphlet may be "based on" the Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, it is not one and the same. In "popularizing" the information the author(s) of the pamphlet use language that is likely to cause cause confusion and they omit the central question at hand in our discussion.

For example, when they say that an adult dog’s daily diet "can" contain up to 50% carbohydrates by weight, it should NOT be misread as the NRC saying a dog's diet "must" contain carbohydrates, nor that it "should" contain carbohydrates.

It says right there, in the source you used to back up your point, that carbohydrate is an essential nutrient. Can you please link me to a scientific source for where you are getting your information? Your views are at odds with a large consensus of veterinary nutritionists and veterinarians, and unless there is something to back it up, it is just "bro science" to me. Sorry, but I've seen both humans and animals whose health has been at risk based on what they think sounds right or seems natural regarding nutrition rather than looking to the experts.

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23 minutes ago, JessieC said:

It says right there, in the source you used to back up your point, that carbohydrate is an essential nutrient. Can you please link me to a scientific source for where you are getting your information? Your views are at odds with a large consensus of veterinary nutritionists and veterinarians, and unless there is something to back it up, it is just "bro science" to me. Sorry, but I've seen both humans and animals whose health has been at risk based on what they think sounds right or seems natural regarding nutrition rather than looking to the experts.

You are confusing yourself due to poor word choices in the pamphlet. Nowhere does this pamphlet say that carbohydrates MUST be consumed, or that they SHOULD be consumed. They only say that carbs CAN be consumed. The full report explicitly says that dogs have NO ESSENTIAL NEED TO CONSUME CARBOHYDRATES.

All the nutrients that dogs need for good health come from animal products. They derive nothing from carb sources that they can't get more optimally from animal products.

Further, carb-feeding has serious downsides for canine health and vitality that are not addressed in this pamphlet.

When animals are fed rations that are inappropriate to their species it is completely predictable that there will be health consequences. For example, 60% of kibble fed dogs develop serious periodontal disease. And almost all have bad teeth. Same with issue of obesity and associated joint pain.

Despite this pamphlet saying that senior dogs require twice as much protein as younger adult dogs, the current practice of dog food companies is to reduce vital protein (and fat) in senior formulas and to increase carbohydrates when that is the worst approach possible.

Bill

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40 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

You are confusing yourself due to poor word choices in the pamphlet. Nowhere does this pamphlet say that carbohydrates MUST be consumed, or that they SHOULD be consumed. They only say that carbs CAN be consumed. The full report explicitly says that dogs have NO ESSENTIAL NEED TO CONSUME CARBOHYDRATES.

I was not confused. The pamphlet says Dogs need several different kinds of nutrients to survive: amino acids from proteins, fatty acids and carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, and water. 

Are you suggesting the full report found carbs to be harmful, and then they decided to change it to a nutrient necessary to survive for the public? What  kind of research organization would do that? You still have not provided evidence to back up claims that dogs get everything they need from animal sources or that carbohydrates are harmful, but I promise I am willing to take a look if you provide the links.

This link from VCA reflects to my knowledge the current consensus (text below)

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/nutrition-general-feeding-guidelines-for-dogs

Since dogs are carnivores, doesn’t this mean that they need to eat a diet that is meat based?

As a species, the dog is a member of the scientific order Carnivora, a large group of mammalian animals that share a similar tooth structure. The dietary needs of animals belonging to this order vary. Some members of this group have an absolute requirement for meat in their diet (called obligate or true carnivores), while others can meet their nutrient requirements through eating plant material (herbivores) or a combination of meat and plants (omnivores). Cats are an example of an obligate carnivore, cows are an example of an herbivore, and dogs and humans are two examples of omnivores.

Because of the dietary needs of dogs, both their tooth structure and intestinal tract have become adapted to an omnivorous diet. This means that, under normal circumstances, dogs can meet their nutritional needs by eating a combination of plant and animal foods. The source of the proteins and fats is less important than the quality and digestibility of these essential components of the dog’s diet. Dogs can thrive if they are fed a properly balanced vegetarian diet. However, an all-meat diet would be unbalanced and would not meet all of a dog’s nutritional requirements.

As research into basic and applied nutrition has expanded our knowledge of canine nutrition, we now know that a well-balanced diet must also include an appropriate amount of minerals, vitamins, certain essential amino acids (from proteins), and specific essential fatty acids (from fats). These components are needed to build and maintain tissue and carry out biological reactions, and the necessary amounts vary somewhat with the dog’s stage of life (puppy, adolescent, adult, pregnancy, senior). Feeding your dog an appropriate amount of a well-balanced diet is vital to its overall health and well-being.

I was told that dogs cannot digest carbohydrates. Is this true?

To meet their energy needs, dogs have evolved to use proteins and fats as their primary energy sources, but they can also use carbohydrates for energy. The fact that the dog’s digestive system produces enzymes that are specific for digesting starches and sugars shows that they are capable of digesting carbohydrates. However, complex carbohydrates such as grains are more digestible when they are cooked.

I have heard that dogs should only eat raw foods and that dogs cannot properly digest cooked foods. Is this true?

Domesticated dogs have adapted over millennia to consumption of diets provided by their human companions, including foods that have been cooked. As mentioned above, dogs can actually digest complex carbohydrates more easily once they have been cooked.

What are the nutritional requirements for dogs?

The six basic nutrients are water, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, minerals, and vitamins. These essential nutrients are required as part of the dog’s regular diet and are involved in all of the basic functions of the body. The minimum dietary requirement has been established for many nutrients. The maximum tolerable amounts of some nutrients are known, and results of toxicity have been established. What is less understood is what may happen over time with marginal deficiencies or excesses.

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55 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I feel fortunate that all the grain free foods my dog tried made him constipated, but the food we’ve been feeding (Wellness Complete Health) has peas, along with grains.

Should I be worried? 

I don't see Wellness on the list of foods the FDA has received reports about (scroll down and you can see the graph with brands listed), but it is also not one of the 5 currently recommended. I'd ask your vet!

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy

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2 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

Where can I find the list of the 5 recommended foods?  

The World's Small Animal Veterinarian Association suggests five different dog foods while the investigation is going on:
1. Royal Canin
2. Science Diet
3. Eukanuba
4. Iams
5. Purina Pro Plan

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44 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:


I am kind of laughing at myself.  For years, I've made a special effort to drive to the fancy dog food store on the other side of town, with all the organic dog foods.  And the dog food lady there convinced me to try all sorts of grain free foods before I finally was like "this isn't working" and we settled on some brands with grain, most recently the Wellness one. 

A few weeks ago, I didn't make it to the fancy pet store, so I ordered on Amazon, but we ran out before it came.  So, I ran to the 7-11 and all they had was Pro Plan, which he seemed to like and tolerate.  But I felt so guilty!  I mean, I wouldn't feed my human kids a 7-11 diet.  Sure, maybe a slurpee now and then but not day after day!

Are you telling me, that I should have been going to 7-11 the whole time?  That I wasted all those trips across town for the 10 years I've had this dog?

 

Many of us did the same thing! We just wanted the best for our animals and believed these fancy brands were better. You are not alone!

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Spy Car, the quoted text says quite clearly that dogs need carbohydrates. This is the same organization that you state says otherwise. Instead of stating again that you think this is wrong, can you please link to or otherwise cite that organization stating that dogs do not need carbohydrates?

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1 hour ago, JessieC said:

I was not confused. The pamphlet says Dogs need several different kinds of nutrients to survive: amino acids from proteins, fatty acids and carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, and water. 

Are you suggesting the full report found carbs to be harmful, and then they decided to change it to a nutrient necessary to survive for the public? What  kind of research organization would do that? You still have not provided evidence to back up claims that dogs get everything they need from animal sources or that carbohydrates are harmful, but I promise I am willing to take a look if you provide the links.

This link from VCA reflects to my knowledge the current consensus (text below)

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/nutrition-general-feeding-guidelines-for-dogs

Since dogs are carnivores, doesn’t this mean that they need to eat a diet that is meat based?

As a species, the dog is a member of the scientific order Carnivora, a large group of mammalian animals that share a similar tooth structure. The dietary needs of animals belonging to this order vary. Some members of this group have an absolute requirement for meat in their diet (called obligate or true carnivores), while others can meet their nutrient requirements through eating plant material (herbivores) or a combination of meat and plants (omnivores). Cats are an example of an obligate carnivore, cows are an example of an herbivore, and dogs and humans are two examples of omnivores.

Because of the dietary needs of dogs, both their tooth structure and intestinal tract have become adapted to an omnivorous diet. This means that, under normal circumstances, dogs can meet their nutritional needs by eating a combination of plant and animal foods. The source of the proteins and fats is less important than the quality and digestibility of these essential components of the dog’s diet. Dogs can thrive if they are fed a properly balanced vegetarian diet. However, an all-meat diet would be unbalanced and would not meet all of a dog’s nutritional requirements.

As research into basic and applied nutrition has expanded our knowledge of canine nutrition, we now know that a well-balanced diet must also include an appropriate amount of minerals, vitamins, certain essential amino acids (from proteins), and specific essential fatty acids (from fats). These components are needed to build and maintain tissue and carry out biological reactions, and the necessary amounts vary somewhat with the dog’s stage of life (puppy, adolescent, adult, pregnancy, senior). Feeding your dog an appropriate amount of a well-balanced diet is vital to its overall health and well-being.

I was told that dogs cannot digest carbohydrates. Is this true?

To meet their energy needs, dogs have evolved to use proteins and fats as their primary energy sources, but they can also use carbohydrates for energy. The fact that the dog’s digestive system produces enzymes that are specific for digesting starches and sugars shows that they are capable of digesting carbohydrates. However, complex carbohydrates such as grains are more digestible when they are cooked.

I have heard that dogs should only eat raw foods and that dogs cannot properly digest cooked foods. Is this true?

Domesticated dogs have adapted over millennia to consumption of diets provided by their human companions, including foods that have been cooked. As mentioned above, dogs can actually digest complex carbohydrates more easily once they have been cooked.

What are the nutritional requirements for dogs?

The six basic nutrients are water, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, minerals, and vitamins. These essential nutrients are required as part of the dog’s regular diet and are involved in all of the basic functions of the body. The minimum dietary requirement has been established for many nutrients. The maximum tolerable amounts of some nutrients are known, and results of toxicity have been established. What is less understood is what may happen over time with marginal deficiencies or excesses.

The full report makes it crystal clear that there is no essential need for canines to consume carbohydrates. I'm not sure how to make that more clear. The pamphlet, aimed at a popular audience, is unclear in expressing the finding on this point. There is NOTHING in carbohydrates that dogs require. Full stop

Carbs are unnecessary in a canine diet. 

Dog's do NOT produce salivary amylase (the enzyme necessary to process starches) as nearly every omnivore does. Further, the capacity to produce amylase in the pancreas is a trait that is very unevenly distributed in the dog population.  There has been an evolutionary pressure for dogs to develop this train relative to wolves (who share the same species), but canines eating carbohydrates in the amounts in dog food is totally unnatural and unhealthful.

The NRC report does not address the harm of eating carbohydrates. Many dozens of papers in the veterinary scientific literature do establish the risks of eating carbs to vitality, obesity, and teeth.

Dogs are not omnivores. That is totally false. Further, cats--which ARE obligate carnivores--are supplied with cat food by manufacturers that are loaded with plant-based carbs despite it being contra indicated or obligate carnivores. It is a scandal. The same companies load dog food with wildly unnatural amounts of carbohydrate--because they are cheap for the manufacturer--and these ingredients take a toll on health.

That cooked grains are more accessible than raw ones is a red herring. It is not a natural part of a diet, period.

The statement about "all-meat diets" being "unbalanced" is a contemptible semantic trick. Yes, feeding ONLY meat would imbalance the calcium/phosphorus ratio that dogs require, which is why PMR feeders give 10% soft-edible bone (to keep the ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus at 1.2:1. It is also why PRM feeds 10% organs to provide optimal levels of vitamins and other minerals.

A PMR approach is "balanced" and  sources who criticize "all-meat" diets as unbalanced are engaging in a type of deception. No one should serve a dog ONLY MEAT. That does not change the fact that animal products has all the nutrients that dogs need and that they are far more optimal than plant based alternatives.

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The full report makes it crystal clear that there is no essential need for canines to consume carbohydrates. I'm not sure how to make that more clear. The pamphlet, aimed at a popular audience, is unclear in expressing the finding on this point. There is NOTHING in carbohydrates that dogs require. Full stop

 

You seem to be answering under the bizarre misapprehension that we don't understand you. No, we don't believe you. If you want to be "more clear", quote the exact text with a precise link to the page in question that states what you are stating.

Other people have done that. Repeatedly. Why can't you?

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3 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Given that my dog will eat ANY human food that falls on the floor.  Why should I assume that if he were wild he would only eat prey?

I don't have a cat, but I've never known a cat that would eat rice or sweet potato, but my dog loves those things with nothing to disguise the taste.  Why would his instincts be so wrong?   

 

I mean, to be fair I've had cats that would eat, with gusto: bread, tomatoes, melon, cinnamon buns (!), and plastic bags (especially the ones surrounding the aforementioned bread).  And I've definitely had to wrestle chocolate out of my dog's grasp before (one frantic call to the vet later, it turned out that there was no way he'd consumed enough to even give him a tummyache, but it was a close call!)

None of those things are good for cats or dogs.

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7 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The full report makes it crystal clear that there is no essential need for canines to consume carbohydrates. I'm not sure how to make that more clear. The pamphlet, aimed at a popular audience, is unclear in expressing the finding on this point. There is NOTHING in carbohydrates that dogs require. Full stop

Carbs are unnecessary in a canine diet. 

Dog's do NOT produce salivary amylase (the enzyme necessary to process starches) as nearly every omnivore does. Further, the capacity to produce amylase in the pancreas is a trait that is very unevenly distributed in the dog population.  There has been an evolutionary pressure for dogs to develop this train relative to wolves (who share the same species), but canines eating carbohydrates in the amounts in dog food is totally unnatural and unhealthful.

The NRC report does not address the harm of eating carbohydrates. Many dozens of papers in the veterinary scientific literature do establish the risks of eating carbs to vitality, obesity, and teeth.

Dogs are not omnivores. That is totally false. Further, cats--which ARE obligate carnivores--are supplied with cat food by manufacturers that are loaded with plant-based carbs despite it being contra indicated or obligate carnivores. It is a scandal. The same companies load dog food with wildly unnatural amounts of carbohydrate--because they are cheap for the manufacturer--and these ingredients take a toll on health.

That cooked grains are more accessible than raw ones is a red herring. It is not a natural part of a diet, period.

The statement about "all-meat diets" being "unbalanced" is a contemptible semantic trick. Yes, feeding ONLY meat would imbalance the calcium/phosphorus ratio that dogs require, which is why PMR feeders give 10% soft-edible bone (to keep the ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus at 1.2:1. It is also why PRM feeds 10% organs to provide optimal levels of vitamins and other minerals.

A PMR approach is "balanced" and  sources who criticize "all-meat" diets as unbalanced are engaging in a type of deception. No one should serve a dog ONLY MEAT. That does not change the fact that animal products has all the nutrients that dogs need and that they are far more optimal than plant based alternatives.

Bill

 

 

 

Saying "full stop" is not the same as providing sources or references for any of your points. I am willing to believe that some  dogs may not technically require carbohydrates in their diets, but do not believe that they are harmful as you say, and I believe they provide many benefits. Also, in my opinion, bone and organs is not really going to make an all-meat diet more balanced. We've asked you multiple times for any links to back up your opinions, but you have not given even one. I'm not going to continue arguing about it, and it's your right to feed your dog as you want, but please be careful in advising others without actual evidence to back it up. As I said, I will trust veterinary nutritionists on this issue.

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Well, cats *are* obligate carnivores (other than wheat grass and catnip I guess? but catnip's more like a drug) but for dogs... one of the big differences between dogs and wolves is dogs evolved to eat our garbage, which is why we can stand to have them around. And for most of the existence of dogs, human garbage has been mostly grains. Thus, while they might not produce as much amylase as, say, we do - they produce a heck of a lot more of it than wolves or coyotes do.

Sure, their closest wild ancestors were strict carnivores. Our closest ancestors subsisted mostly on fruit, which is why we don't produce vitamin C anymore. (Hello, scurvy!) Just because our ancestors did it doesn't mean we should.

This question of whether or not dogs are (or should be fed as) carnivores has been ongoing and contentious for a long time.

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7 hours ago, kand said:

Since Bill hasn’t provided any links, I went looking for some. I thought this was helpful from the Merck Veterinary Manual https://www.merckvetmanual.com/management-and-nutrition/nutrition-small-animals/nutritional-requirements-and-related-diseases-of-small-animals:

Although there is no minimum dietary requirement for simple carbohydrates or starches for dogs and cats, certain tissues, such as the brain and RBCs, require glucose for energy. If inadequate amounts of dietary carbohydrates are available, the body will synthesize glucose from glucogenic amino acids and glycerol. Cats normally use glucogenic amino acids and glycerol to synthesize glucose, which is one reason why cats are classified as true carnivores. However, dogs usually synthesize glucose from dietary carbohydrates. The use of dietary protein to synthesize energy in dogs diverts amino acids away from functions such as synthesis of nonessential amino acids and building muscle. Carbohydrates can become conditionally essential when energy needs are high, such as during growth, gestation, and lactation. Different carbohydrate sources have varying physiologic effects. In cats, carbohydrates apparently are not essential in the diet when ample protein and fats supply glucogenic amino acids and glycerol.”

This is an interesting and relevant discussion for me, having an elderly golden retriever I recently took off grain free food (though I can’t bring myself to go with the recommended dog foods due to distrust of those companies given the inappropriateness of so many of their cat food formulas). She is now currently eating a food that has no peas or lentils, but does have some oats and barley. She had been losing weight recently, but has put it back on with this new food and looks great. On the other hand, she seems a bit itchy and I don’t think her coat feels as nice as it did. I’m suspicious of her thyroid though, so it may have nothing to do with her food. So, jury is out for me until she gets blood work. At her age (14), I don’t think CDM is going to be her downfall anyway. 

This is a very weird article.

First, there is zero requirement on either a daily basis, a weekly basis, a yearly basis or a lifetime basis for carbohydrates in a canine diet. Dogs have zero essential needs of carbohydrates. No "althoughs" about it.

Second, of course dogs need glucose/glycogen for the brain and other life functions. LOL. No kidding!

Third, the ways dogs synthesize glucose form fat is a marvel of efficiency. Fat metabolism provides dogs with nearly inexhaustible amounts of glucose on demand for very extended periods of time. Quite unlike carb burning where  the glucose is quickly extinguished and is not replenished on demand. This author has turned logic on its head. Delivery of glycogen for sustained energy with high-fat vs high-carb food has been thoroughly established in the veterinary literature.

Dogs CAN (with an uneven distribution of the trait) derive glucose from simple carbohydrates. They suffer from marked decreases in aerobic capacity when they do so. This has been measure in VO2 Max scores with sedentary dogs fed a high-carb diet. They scored very poorly. Then fed high-fat food for a period. No other changes. New Vo2 Max scores were near elite canine athlete scores. On a food change alone. Dramatic increase in capacity, including the deliver of glucose.

Feeding carbs is not only not an advantage to supplying steady and ongoing energy, it is the enemy of engaging the far superior fat metabolism that canines evolved to thrive on. This is classic upside down thinking.

Bill

 

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4 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Well, cats *are* obligate carnivores (other than wheat grass and catnip I guess? but catnip's more like a drug) but for dogs... one of the big differences between dogs and wolves is dogs evolved to eat our garbage, which is why we can stand to have them around. And for most of the existence of dogs, human garbage has been mostly grains. Thus, while they might not produce as much amylase as, say, we do - they produce a heck of a lot more of it than wolves or coyotes do.

Sure, their closest wild ancestors were strict carnivores. Our closest ancestors subsisted mostly on fruit, which is why we don't produce vitamin C anymore. (Hello, scurvy!) Just because our ancestors did it doesn't mean we should.

This question of whether or not dogs are (or should be fed as) carnivores has been ongoing and contentious for a long time.

Why do all the companies that make dog food with carbohydrates also make cat food with carbohydrates? They are obligate carnivores. There are starches and other plant based foods in cat rations. A lot. Why?

As to PMR with dogs, the proof is in the pudding.

I think any observer with reasonable vision could ascertain the difference in condition of a PMR raw fed dog and one fed a high-carb kibble. Not a close call.

Bill

 

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9 hours ago, JessieC said:

 

There is no grain-free food that  is considered safe at  this time, unfortunately.  The pea protein/pulses is one possibility for the increase in DCM but they're still trying to figure it out. If you're on Facebook, you can join the group  https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/ to  learn more. The good news is that nutritional  DCM can be reversed after switching to one of the recommended foods (not the grain-free versions): Iam's, Science Diet,  Purina, Royal Canin, and Eukanaba are considered  well-researched and safe--no dogs have been reported to nutritional  DCM while on these foods.. Hopefully your pup is just reacting to summer heat, but I would switch foods right away if I were you. The only real way to know if diet has affected a dog's heart is  through an echocardiogram. Many dogs had normal taurine levels but still developed DCM. 

I purchased some Science Diet shortly after posting. It's what he was on as a puppy so at least I'm familiar with the brand. Fortunately he already had a vet appointment scheduled for tomorrow and they didn't feel I needed to rush in today. On his last visit the vet thought his heart was slightly enlarged from an x-ray that was taken where he could see some narrowing of the trachea, but he was not showing any symptoms at all. It's just in the last 2 weeks that I've noticed he's been a little more tired. I'm a nervous wreck until tomorrow.

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52 minutes ago, dsmith said:

I purchased some Science Diet shortly after posting. It's what he was on as a puppy so at least I'm familiar with the brand. Fortunately he already had a vet appointment scheduled for tomorrow and they didn't feel I needed to rush in today. On his last visit the vet thought his heart was slightly enlarged from an x-ray that was taken where he could see some narrowing of the trachea, but he was not showing any symptoms at all. It's just in the last 2 weeks that I've noticed he's been a little more tired. I'm a nervous wreck until tomorrow.

 

Best of luck and please keep us posted!

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