What is the benefit of dictation?

[Momto6inIN]

I get the benefits of copywork - internalizing high quality writing, correct grammar/punctuation and spelling, probably others I'm not remembering. But it seems to me that dictation doesn't really do anything "extra" that copywork doesn't, except maybe increase their memory. Am I missing something?

[Miss Tick]

They do overlap quite a bit! I think dictation approaches those same topics a bit differently, forcing the writer to retrieve spelling and mechanics rules from memory, rather than remembering them like a mental picture for the specific passage they have read. This is like the difference between translating a foreign language into English and mentally composing a sentence in that language to say out loud.

I also remember Nan in Mass talking about how her child who did more dictation was a much better note-taker in college. The details of her story escape me.

[HomeAgain]

Dictation encourages a child to keep longer portions in their head at a time, which does help in taking notes later.

We use dictation here for spelling.  Each day I give ds a passage, putting the new words on the board.  He listens, repeats, then writes.  In doing so, he's paying attention to nuances like punctuation (listening for comma pauses, hearing inflection to tell what the ending punctuation will be, etc.), reviewing spelling words from previous work, and strengthening his memory skills.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Momto6inIN said:

I get the benefits of copywork - internalizing high quality writing, correct grammar/punctuation and spelling, probably others I'm not remembering. But it seems to me that dictation doesn't really do anything "extra" that copywork doesn't, except maybe increase their memory. Am I missing something?

See I would have gone the other way. Copywork is a low level handwriting exercise with nominal benefits, something quickly outgrown as the child bores of it. Dictation is closer to real life, as they have to pull the spelling, etc. from their head, hold it, motor plan, get it out. My dd dumped copywork in 1st grade and continued dictation through about 7th. Dictation made a noticeable difference in her mastery of spelling and copywork was just busywork.

If you want to internalize high quality writing, there are plenty more ways, including reading quality literature, doing reader/writing workshops where you discuss the writer's craft, etc. I think maybe figure out why you're even doing either one (dictation or copywork). Maybe your kids are outgrowing both.

[Momto6inIN]

Thank you, this all makes sense to me!

Do you think there is a benefit to doing longer dictations passages, or does the length matter as they get older?

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

Thank you, this all makes sense to me!

Do you think there is a benefit to doing longer dictations passages, or does the length matter as they get older?

Again, know why you're doing it. My dd wasn't *fast* so we had a goal of amount on the page. Like we'd do 1/2 page written, whatever our goal was. And that could take her 20-40 minutes, depending on where she was at the time. In say 3rd or 4th, it was longer because it was a huge focus. By junior high we were pretty short. So look at your goals. It would only be your 11 and 7 yos basically. With that 11 yo, you might have some goals that are more sophisticated (punctuation, complex sentences, whatever), so getting through a couple of those would be enough.

Edited June 24, 2019 by PeterPan

[Familia]

Dictation has the added benefit of giving mother and child a chance to work on their relationship and anger management skills.  

[Momto6inIN]

I guess I've been using copywork as my younger kids' first experiences in "composition". So when they are ready for more explicit composition instruction, I've dropped it. And I wasn't completely sure where dictation fits because it's not really a method to teach composition, but everywhere I read about it it seems to be combined with copywork as a similar exercise.

I think what I'm hearing you all say is that dictation a good way to combine spelling and grammar and punctuation practice all into one exercise. So do you all use it as your main grammar and spelling instruction method or do you use other curricula to teach those skills and use dictation as a practice exercise to combine them all together? 

[8filltheheart]

Dictation is not always a good teaching tool. For dyslexic kids, it can do far more self-esteem damage due to repeated lack of success than having any positive educational outcome. 

I quickly learned that I could make copy work active learning, not passive, by how we engaged with the selection. Copywork is used to teach mechanics, grammar, sentence structure, and paragraph structure. It is used to discuss what makes a passage interesting. Copywork is the basis for their introduction to independent writing.  It works here and without the stress of worrying about mistakes in dictation. That stress detracted from them focusing on learning anything from the process.

I am not a dictation fan for learning anything other than spelling. Dictation in our home is restricted to words I expect them to have mastered.

[Kuovonne]

Some people use the same passage for copywork and dictation throughout the week.

Monday: Observe the passage and annotate to highlight punctuation, capitalization, spelling, etc.

Tuesday: Write passage as copywork from annotated copy

Wednesday: Write passage as copywork from un-annotated copy

Thursday: Write passage from dictation

 

I didn’t actually use this method for either of my kids. My younger DD really disliked copywork, but was okay with dictation.

[8filltheheart]

18 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

Some people use the same passage for copywork and dictation throughout the week.

Monday: Observe the passage and annotate to highlight punctuation, capitalization, spelling, etc.

Tuesday: Write passage as copywork from annotated copy

Wednesday: Write passage as copywork from un-annotated copy

Thursday: Write passage from dictation

 

I didn’t actually use this method for either of my kids. My younger DD really disliked copywork, but was okay with dictation.

This, of course, limits dictation to words they should be able to spell. It also could be very repetitive and cause loss of interest in the child.

[8filltheheart]

3 minutes ago, mms said:

Different styles for different teachers and learners but I think it also depends on how one does dictation.  I have always spelled out words that were unfamiliar and written out proper nouns ahead of time, setting the child up for success. 

Then if you had my kids, your dictation exercises would have just turned into copywork.  And doing repeated copying or studied dictation or whatever you want to call it would not lead to them spelling difficult words correctly.  Spelling success is not from just memorizing words in a few days.  It doesn't work that way.

[Ausmumof3]

On 6/24/2019 at 10:43 PM, Momto6inIN said:

I get the benefits of copywork - internalizing high quality writing, correct grammar/punctuation and spelling, probably others I'm not remembering. But it seems to me that dictation doesn't really do anything "extra" that copywork doesn't, except maybe increase their memory. Am I missing something?

To me I think it’s the next level to copywork.  In copywork the kids really just need to think about accurate letter formation.  In dictation, kids have to think about spelling and punctuation but not content.  Eventually you get to composition which is everything at once

[Melissa in Australia]

On 6/25/2019 at 6:10 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

Dictation is not always a good teaching tool. For dyslexic kids, it can do far more self-esteem damage due to repeated lack of success than having any positive educational outcome. 

I quickly learned that I could make copy work active learning, not passive, by how we engaged with the selection. Copywork is used to teach mechanics, grammar, sentence structure, and paragraph structure. It is used to discuss what makes a passage interesting. Copywork is the basis for their introduction to independent writing.  It works here and without the stress of worrying about mistakes in dictation. That stress detracted from them focusing on learning anything from the process.

I am not a dictation fan for learning anything other than spelling. Dictation in our home is restricted to words I expect them to have mastered.

I think it may depend on the child. My profound dyslexic children have really benefited form dictation. - thought I do let them use a computer for all written work. It is instrumental for them to develop paragraph awareness. they don't have to come up with original text - just write down what I dictate to them. this takes some of those complex steps out of the process of writing - sort of the reverse of them scribing their thought to me for me to write.

 It also greatly assists in their ability to take notes.

ds15 still does dictation at least 3 times a week.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Melissa in Australia

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I think it may depend on the child. My profound dyslexic children have really benefited form dictation. - thought I do let them use a computer for all written work. It is instrumental for them to develop paragraph awareness. they don't have to come up with original text - just write down what I dictate to them. this takes some of those complex steps out of the process of writing - sort of the reverse of them scribing their thought to me for me to write.

 It also greatly assists in their ability to take notes.

ds15 still does dictation at least 3 times a week.

Definitely depends on the child. For my kids, there would be zero attention to paragraph awareness bc they would be hyper-focused on spelling individual words. Since they don't have to decide what to write, it becomes a long list of connected spelling (getting bogged down walking from tree to tree vs seeing the forest.)  

Not sure about the ability to take notes part. My kids have never struggled with a transition from non-formal education to classroom expectations. Since their notes are only for them, they don't have to worry how things are spelled and they have no problems deciphering their own phonetic spelling.

@Momto6inINDictation has been used by many people as a successful transition step toward independent composition. Same with written narrations. If those are approaches that appeal to you as a teacher, you should try them and see how your children respond. Are they essential? No. Can they be successful? Yes. It really comes down to personal preferences and how you want to approach things.  Dictation and written narrations are not methods I personally like to implement in our homeschool. There are other methods that can achieve the same outcomes.  

 

[Momto6inIN]

6 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

To me I think it’s the next level to copywork.  In copywork the kids really just need to think about accurate letter formation.  In dictation, kids have to think about spelling and punctuation but not content.  Eventually you get to composition which is everything at once

This is interesting ... so do you start with copywork, move on to dictation, and then teach composition after that? How do you know when to move from one to the next level?

[HomeAgain]

19 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

This is interesting ... so do you start with copywork, move on to dictation, and then teach composition after that? How do you know when to move from one to the next level?

Not Ausmum, but the way it works in our house is that it overlaps.  When copywork is proficient, we start adding in short dictation pieces as part of the day. For a long time we do both.  Eventually copywork gets dropped and written narrations are added.  Then dictation and composition are taught side by side.  Then dictation gets dropped and the focus is on different styles of writing and format.

[MerryAtHope]

I think dictation can also help to strengthen a student's working memory (we used it to gradually help my kids hold more words in mind at a time, which can make the writing process easier.) I used dictation more for mechanics, but copywork can help with that too. I prefer copywork for longer passages and for focusing on literary elements, but really, both can be used for working on a variety of goals. Here are a couple of blog posts:

• Copywork and Dictation: Teaching Mechanics
• Copywork and Dictation: Teaching Literary Elements

[Sarah0000]

Well my oldest is seven but I can say the biggest benefit of dictation is that he likes it. My primary purpose is spelling practice, but after he spells in manuscript I have him copy again in cursive. I will probably also add in grammar parsing at some point. He does separate composition.

[Ausmumof3]

On 6/27/2019 at 12:17 AM, Momto6inIN said:

This is interesting ... so do you start with copywork, move on to dictation, and then teach composition after that? How do you know when to move from one to the next level?

To be honest I came late to the party from more modern approaches so we don’t do much of any of it but basically what Homeagain said.  Learning at one level for copywork then slightly shorter/easier stuff for dictation.